How a $5B founder is using AI (3 tutorials)

wait sam we gotta clickbait it up how will five billion dollar founder is using ai to change his life well are you a five but what are you guys worth now who knows you know you know you you i feel like i could rude world i know i could be what i want to put at all in in like a days off on a goal travel never we should do a little intro so first do you is it i've been saying zapier my whole life is it zapier or zapier zapier makes you happier is the trick it runs with happier happy yeah wow dude how is that not your slogan here's your here's what your slogan is on your site the automation layer for agent ai it doesn't really flow the same way as zapier ray your zapier it doesn't we could so there's two things from the name week one we just couldn't afford the second pee when we started which domain was available but the other like we were too clever for our own good is it has api in the name which we always thought like oh that's neat because it's all connecting all the these apis and all that could i didn't even notice that i didn't notice that oh yeah yeah obviously i didn't even notice i i missing but it also if you put zapier makes you happier i would have read it as see happier here talk gone on with your day but we're happier here thank you the short story is your the guy who's built this really cool started off as a very simple idea where you can make different apps connect with each other what does that really mean let's say i have a business and people submit a form over here on my form thing then i kinda need that form thing i need all the people who submitted the form i need that data to go over here in this other unrelated app and you guys built those like universal plugs and you could just plug in anything to anything else and it was just incredibly useful sam used it i used it we didn't realize or i didn't realize how monstrous of a business this had become i believe you guys are worth several billions maybe five billion was a number that i had seen at some point in time and i think you had bootstrap a very long way is it purely bootstrap or you at some point took some money i think the word people call it now a seed strap so we did go through yc and we raised about a million and change but that's all the primary capital we've ever taken yeah so just incredibly to to raise a million bucks and then get to five billion in values is just pretty pretty wild so super cool but we are here not to necessarily tell the whole story of how zapier makes you happier but to show us what you're doing with the ai can you give me a public sales pitch real quick i'm requesting a sales pitch and what i want is i know how og g v one of zapier worked where you connect one app to another you're saying hey we have this new ai product that you use with claude presumably makes your quad or chat usage more powerful yep whatever i haven't been using that i also here's the other caveat i'm kinda dumb like imagine talking to somebody with half the iq of yours he's like can you give me a pitch to someone who's sort of dumb and doesn't listen but it's they're smart at the same time i'm the confidence of a smart man yeah i have really good news for you though like i think ai is this incredible gift to people who are kinda dumb because you can just agree talk to it and say like hey i didn't understand that answer explain it to me like i'm five and so you can keep like going down the dumb this stack i guess for like lack of a better word until you understand it and then go okay now like teach me back up to where i need to go so okay the sales pitch you want the sales pitch in the old world you know zapier you know come in build integrations connect apps the new world has a lot of the same things but it's different nowadays you're hanging in claw you're hanging in you know codex or cursor or you know open claw or what whatever it is that you like using right and you're just talking to it going back and forth most people start with that ai is the chatbot is valuable but it's only generally smart it knows everything that the internet knows it doesn't know anything about your business so the next step that you need to go to is to start connecting your tools you start connecting your crm your helpdesk desk your email your team chat all this stuff and you feed that context in to the ai now when you start asking at questions about my first million and all this other stuff you get not just generally smart answers you get hyper specific answers around how your business works okay so if you install zap you're into this you can hook up any of the tools that we have right so that's that's the first thing the first bit of value and the first thing that people sort of experience is like oh connecting stuff makes sense but look you can do native connectors and all that other stuff so right you use zapier or use the native connectors do whatever you want the next layer and where this gets really powerful is not where you're sitting having this like back and forth conversation it's when you're actually deploying automations and agents to actually go operate for you while you sleep like that's where you start to get the real magic and the reason you wanna use zapier to do that versus like any of these generic agent builders what was an what's an example i mean like you know claude has routines or chat schedule stuff like you know there's a bunch of these things that can kinda kinda do agents or pseudo agents these days but the nice thing about zapier is that if you use us we are going to make it so that whatever you build is optimized to run more deter than agent and i don't think people have caught up on this yet but you've probably experienced climbing up the iq screen i know tight pink tight pink tight agents agents they kinda just guess what to do right and if they're smart enough they guess right most of the time but sometimes the agents guess wrong and the second thing is agents are using tokens right we probably heard token maxing right and so they're really expensive but if you use zapier we're gonna write code for you and we're gonna write workflow of logic for you which means that it's gonna run like a machine runs and so you're gonna get it's not gonna burn tokens it's going to be reliable and accurate and it's only gonna use ai exactly where it needs to to to use ai got it and you've got this you can host it on da dot com so you don't have to sit here and like keep your laptop open to run these agents in the background and so you just get this like rock solid infrastructure that zapier has always been great at and hook up of everything that we've always done but you can build yell inside claude which is like really nice because claude just kinda that the natural language style of building is i don't she's like way better than the no code style stuff that we were doing in the past well you're not the wolf of wall street but that was a pretty good sales pitch i gave you to sell me this pen test and you you did a pretty good job there alright i appreciate that i feel like i now actually understand it so that that was good well and here's the magic you can if you didn't and you're just pretending and being nice you can take the transcript of this and you can plug it in a closet and say wade said this weird thing i tell i was talking about tell me what he was really saying and that's like the cool part of ai that is cool you gave us a list of stuff so we said wade what do are you what are you making and it doesn't always have to be like this like crazy like game changing stuff but what are you making with the ai and you gave us a list of like three or four things you said you have robots haven't you gotta clickbait it up how a five billion dollar founder is using ai to change his life well are you a five but what are guys worth now who knows you yeah i mean know don't know how the markets behave right now they're like up and down all sorts of ways like guess i don't think about it honestly like i'm just like how do we build stuff the banks are not for successful i do you're a sweet guy i think you're liar though yeah because i know you think about it under oath you know what i there's the there's the old thing right like in the short term the markets are a voting machine in the long term they're weighing machine i'd rather you just tell me f off and give me these lies because i know you think about it but don't don't piss on my back and tell me it's rain wade honestly honestly don't tell me to tell me out of my business so that accept it alright it's none of your business right and okay that helps that's fair since the last time you guys got value where did you where the five billion number come from in the first place that was a secondary number sale that happened in twenty twenty one maybe okay our our revenues slightly up way up down way down since then revenues are up yeah okay alright good so we're doing what alright that clickbait headline holds okay continue on so how you're actually using ai as a as a high functioning ceo okay let me share screen on some of this stuff so we'll get into the into the fund bits one of the cool things is you know because i work with my agent all the time i can say hey i'm you know going on my first million like help me help me demo this stuff and so this is this is what it came up with it's like here's the stuff you should actually go go demo and so you can see i've got you know four potential things we can show off one is the robot staff this is kinda like my chief of staff that does like a whole bunch of different automations and agents for me i've got the seal ceo crm that i built that helps me stay really close with our enterprise customers i've got them like an ai that are used back i think this is a really important thing that every like leader needs to to build i think there's a lot of ceos out there a lot of leaders out there that are talking to an ai that just agrees with them all the time and so you need to like there's are a few ticks and tips and tricks you can do to like force it to like sc your thinking rather than just tell you yeah you're you're totally right all the time and then i've got a bunch of skills that i run for a whole bunch of random tasks internally so yeah i i would probably start with a robot staff i think this is like cool to to dig into the first thing and we'll we'll i'll show the complete version of this where i think most people start is kind of the morning brief you know it's super simple it's a good it's a good way to experience like your first agent you know you hook it up to your calendar you hook it up to your email you hook it up to your you know any meeting like notes you've got any prioritization like a to do list that you have and then you know in this case it runs at six am in the morning and then it sends me a slack message yeah i call i call this waking up like the president like the president way it's a gets a daily brief here's what sir here's what you have on your your plate today nine thirty you're talking to this person ten am this person here here's what they wanna talk about that sort of thing and so totally waking up like now everybody gets to wake up with a presidential briefing exactly and so you know these things like in my case i have it send me a slack message you can have it send you an email i mean heck you could probably have it fax you something if you really wanna feel like the president i have it set up so it prints but yeah it doesn't it doesn't do it all the time and i also have this woman named ari conveniently because i told i i wanted to make it come from like a a person and the person made is that weird for you that sam named just agent after you the person they selected looked it looked like ari so i was like it's ari so i have ari that said to me like a pop up speech as well for the day and so i love these daily bread there go now so the cool thing i'll actually show you so i i have the link out to this one this is you this is running on zap here and you can see what this actually looks like you know kinda looks like you know classic zap here a little bit it runs every day at six am it goes and fetch features all calendar events and then here it's writing some specific code and hitting the ai to like write the slack in a very particular way now what is different about this is we can poke over here this is all code which in the past like you couldn't do this with zapier now i've not actually looked at any of this code like this is actually the first time i pop this open and even taken a look at what this is so you don't have to know what's going on here but again it kinda speaks to the value prop zap it's turning all of this stuff into a deter workflow and it's only using ai in the places that you really need to use ai which means this runs way more reliably way more consistently and way more cost effectively than than most agents so but can i use this and that like the problem that i have with claude or complexity or whatever is that my computer has to be open for a lot of these routines to run exactly and it's a pain the ass mh would we're doing it on zapier just be like in lieu of using like open claw or having a mac mini there you go exactly the the point you can just deploy this as app and we run them in the cloud for you that sounds way better than using open call or having a mac mini so way way simpler right you can look up here it's also agent managed so one of the nice things is alright hold on just a second i know what you're doing wade who started a company grew to a five billion dollar valuation he's telling you all these amazing ai prompts that he uses for his business you're probably taking a lot of notes right now that's exactly what i was doing and so what we decided to do was take all of those notes all the scripts that he's talking about and we put it into a really easy document so you just copy and paste everything so there's the prompts where he talks about ai arguing back with him where he can stress test different decisions by having a seven person ai executive committee kinda help him figure things out and then your own life coach so you can have a better day so if you want this exact ai workflow again you could just copy and paste all this stuff just click the link in the description or scan the qr code alright back to wade while it is running deter if for whatever reason it breaks like say an api is down or you know something doesn't work right it falls back to having an ai try and troubleshoot for you and so it automatically apply fixes you know when things don't work quite the right way and so there's this like really nice blend of like traditional software and like agent software here that is just you know super well done by by the team over here so i i definitely would say hey if you're if you're struggling with your open clause if you're like keeping your laptop open all the time you should definitely install app into like you're you know agent or ai of choice and and give this a try okay what else so you get the morning brief that's pretty standard i say so let's talk about so i think the morning breach is pretty standard but the one that i really like is the the evening brief in the scribe so yeah i've had i played with a couple versions of it one is it runs after every meeting and then i have another version that runs at the end of the day i actually think this is way better than the morning brief and the reason why is you could actually have the ai help you do stuff so you know it this loops over all of my meeting notes from the day so i'm using granola for all of my meetings it loops over all of the to do's that are still in my to do list for the day it loops over all of the outstanding and emails that are in my inbox for the day and it and then it prompts me and says hey how did the day go so there's two key things that it does for me one when i say what how the day went i basically said it was a good day for this reason or was a bad day for this reason so now all that stuff is getting logged and it's learning how to tune my day to help me have more good days than bad days well that's a second thing that it's doing is it's actually taking action on them stuff own stuff so it says hey you know you were in a meeting with sam and sean yesterday and they asked for an intro to your buddy over at this company do you want me to go ahead and make that intro for you great please do that right so it's drafting those follow up emails it's drafting all these other things and so this is where ai starts to get really helpful is it's not just giving you a brief and sort of tee it up for you to do it's now saying i'll just do that for you and this is where i think you start to really feel the power of ai when you can actually put it to work so i love scribe those sort of like post meeting follow up or the end of day wrap up because it just i don't know i used to spend like two hours at the end of my day just like you know just trying to catch up on every little tick tac thing that i sort of got rope into and now that like two hours at the end of the day is down to like fifteen minutes so you think this is legit saving you two hours a day almost i yes yes and furthermore that like you know what's good about my day what's bad about my day part it just helps me stay like focused on the things that matter so both the ai is helping me with that but i also will send like i remember ninety like about about ninety days after i started doing this i said hey i had this thought i was like you know so much about like what makes me have good days and bad days can you like summarize like what is common about my good days and what is common about my bad days and it was like sure and it did all that stuff and then i gave it to my assistant and i said hey here's like please make my days look like more good days versus bad news what what were your good days and what were your bad day so for me like the single most important thing is i i'm a morning person and so i do my best work in the morning i'm most focused you know once once after lunch comes around you know i'm just not gonna get anything like sirius done and so the most important thing is i don't want a meeting until eleven am and so you just give me that morning time where i can knock out the most critical things and the day is gonna go great like i will win the rest of the day but if i have to like you know if if that time starts to get sucked into like firefight finding mode you can tell i'll just be grumpy at the end of the day where i'm just like oh like i'm not i'm not being successful and you'll notice this podcast started at eleven am hey let's take a quick break you know that feeling when strategy is done the brief is written everyone's aligned and you realize someone still has to sit down and actually create all the content that someone is usually you and it's due tomorrow well the breeze assistant from hubspot can help it works right inside hubspot you can draft campaign copy blog posts emails all in your brand voice all using your actual customer data so you don't create just content you create content that converts check out hubspot dot com the agent customer platform for growing businesses can you show us how to get the ai to challenge you instead of oh yeah let's do that so coming back ai that are use back so this is pretty simple right i use i use cursor as my daily like agent but in if you're using claude if you're using chat d if you're using gemini and i they often have like a system prompt or a way that you can sort of tune like how it talks to you and so in cursor i have a file the agent's empty that's kinda what it uses everywhere claude has a claude m md and basically i have a file that's like how to work with me and you know i you know have it be direct and honest i need the truth my coworkers are afraid to tell me i need you to challenge my assumptions i need you to poke holes and my thinking i need you to disagree like disagree when you genuinely disagree and these things are like goal seeking entities and so if you tell it like what i want from you is this it's gonna say okay well that's what wage so i'm gonna try and give him that goal but if you don't tell him this if you don't make this configuration it's going to just genuinely try and like play hate you because it thinks that's what you want and so you do have to tell it you know it sort of guided it a little bit so like here's an example of like you know a live prompt i ran ahead of time for this i said hey i'm thinking we should kill our entire free tier this quarter because one of our competitor raise prices help me draft the announcement right so this is like something that it should definitely like say hey press pause like that that's a that's a bad idea and so when i do that here's the you know pushback that it gives me it's like hey it's a big move off a pretty thin signal before you draft anything i want you to i want three things on the table so like you know bring me the data you know tell me like what the actual problem you're trying to solve is you know pricing announcements are wrong like you know is there a smaller experiment you can run that's great yeah it's just like helping you think through you know these problems and then you know i have this other skill that i've made which i call my work council skill and so this is like an even like more specific version of this that i will often invoke so i could say hey yeah i'm thinking about hiring this person here's all the like notes that i've got on them from the interview panel like help me figure out if this person's gonna raise the bar on and what it will do the war council is this is a i actually let let me poke back i think i have the work council skill in here yeah here it is okay i it didn't actually pull the skill up so this if you go to the zapier github you can get a copy of the war council but what this does is it spins up sub agents and these sub agents take on personas there are seven sub agents that get spun up so seven personas some of them are standing members so for example i have the war wartime coo is a standing member of the war council there's the ruthless cfo is a standing member there's a contra board member that are is standing members of the war council then i leave four personas to be generated dynamically so based on the prompt it will decide who else who else do i need to get advice from them that war wartime coo you created the persona you described its characteristics or you trained it on like travis clinic transcripts or something like what did your how'd you that in my case i it's a it's a generic version but you could do whatever you want right if you want to to have like grab what does your generic version mean though you just said you be i just said these are the traits of i said this is a traits of a time coo and it like i said actually what i did was said i won a wartime coo you know generate that persona and then i looked at what it created and just made some like do you have like a pretty chill generally happy positive outlook luxury like like this is this is you're seeing the like the the the internal competitor inside of me right like this is the the kobe bryant pom mentality like you know like coming through i like having this like you know this sort of thought partner that is a little more bit more like ruthless because yeah that's not my that's not my default mode right i want to have that kind checks and balance there and as a ceo you're not always gonna have people who are comfortable available skilled in that way around you right like this is this is like who you would want on your team when when you want them to spin up quick stupid question you said i use cursor for my ai i thought cursor is a coding tool but you're it sounds like you're using it to chat make decisions am i just wrong about what cursor is or yeah i mean cursor you can use cursor cloud code codecs x like these are all ostensibly coding agents but they have this like agent mode where you can just talk to it and the thing is it talks to it but because it can write code it can do stuff for you and so the way the way i try and talk to people who are not engineers and say hey you should try using this is don't think of it as a tool for you know engineers to build stuff think of it is like you're hiring cursor or cloud code or codecs to be the engineer you delegate things to where it's like you you probably have engineers you've worked with you like to tell that engineer go build this for me or go build that for me like that's why i use cursor because it goes and build stuff for me not because i'm using it to actually go build a bunch of stuff i don't really write any code wait so so your default when you just need to like talk to an ai or chat or ask a question you go straight to cursor you don't do cha plea or claude i mean mostly especially when i'm on my desktop i'm mostly talking to cursor most of the time it has like different models that you can sort of toggle back and forth on which i like so i can you know test a bunch of different models and things like that are you a typo or talker i i'm i do a lot of voice to text these days so i use this this app monologue why monologue i don't know i like it like i've tried a few of these i've tried like whisper flow and super whisperer and monologue i don't know it just like it just gets me like i i don't know like i don't know of a better way to describe it quick side note i think this is gonna be like an interesting thing about software for the future like when it is so cheap to build software i think you're gonna see more software that has like a personality to it know you think about like consumer goods it's like how many places can you buy genes from or how many places can you get you know whatever from there's like not that many differences but you choose like you might choose one brand and i might choose a different brand and it's just because like i like it better but does the same thing i think there's gonna be more software that kinda like feels that way yeah it's yeah no i mean i think that's a good point it's like the adidas and the nike shoes do the exact same thing but like totally no or like t shirt brands like do remember i was watching this blake two documentary last night you guys remember hurley you remember hurley shirts they're they're everywhere and i i was watching to show us i i'm like why did we love those shirts so much isn't that crazy that we got obsessed with and it was just that stupid logo and why did that matter to it so much and that's i think that's a good point that's how we're gonna think about b to b even b to b boring software well that's that's i think it's a really fascinating point because it always was differentiated on either features or price right those are kind of the the two main axes of competition and then design got layered and i feel like there was like a wave where better design better ui ux became a differentiator and design you know got a seat at the table and then but if you look at like other products non software it'll be either kind brand or like status you know like luxury it's signaling something about you that doesn't really exist in software and it sounds like what you're saying is there's gonna be a new axis of competition which is personality you know do i like the feel of when i gonna interact with it versus which model has more parameters and you know a hire you know benchmark score on the eval is not gonna be how people are gonna choose these things because i'm already doing that i think you're absolutely right well and i certainly feel it like you know as someone who plays around with a lot of the models i i'm starting to find myself have some preferences for like different tasks like if i'm asking it to actually go do an engineering task where i don't need to talk to it there's models i like for that know fable is fantastic like you're sure you're gonna give it a really complex like you know engineering task i'm like great have fable go take a take a swing at this it's gonna nail the thing but man i do not wanna talk to fable like it is it is not fun to talk to at all we all have coworkers like that they crush it at some tasks but you're not to not a great hang yeah exactly but then there's other like models we are like hey if i wanna sort of like go back and forth and have like a discussion and a debate around like what we're doing i'm like okay i i feel like i can you know tolerate that discussion a lot better than like trying to talk to fable where i'm just like oh my god are all the phrases like when claude talks to me it's like what what are its phrases it's like it's not here it's that or here's here's the thing that's quietly really the problem yeah the honest the load bearing you know yeah like are here's let's get to the spine are those specific two ai or to the model to the model for sure like you can tell most models i think are derivative of either either the you know like ant anthrax series or gp series and so like you know those two kinda have two distinct personalities but if you go use you know any of the like open source tools or things like that you can kinda see like who they've been dis a lot and like it sort of inherit the personality of you know the one above dude i've noticed that my coworkers are starting to say like the claw like someone in the other day said like let's get to the load bearing part or like something like i'm like like when they're talking about lab not in writing yeah yeah yeah i noticed you i i noticed that where they start saying things i'm like that's claude and these and and and it's sort of like clogged them yeah like or or they're trying to talk that way so then they can like use claude writing and be like no it's really me who is training who right are we training the ai or the ai is training us and and i think like i think you can go a step further where actually let me show you this other use case because this is interesting too so this is a bunch of synthetic data so it's not real but you know i have a real version of it and it's got a list of accounts and you can kinda click into the accounts and see what's going on it so if we click into you know ac logistics here you can see you know a bunch of stuff about it it's like oh you know usage is down thirty four percent there's a renewal in forty five days here's all the apps they're using here's the people in the organization that you need to care about with it etcetera but then like here's the interesting part it's got the suggested ceo or outreach where it's like you should email jordan and you know check it on him see what's up and so this is where you know i think ai gets really interesting because in some respects who's the boss now like i the boss or is they ai the boss you know every sunday morning now i wake up with a list of you know ten customers that i wanna get in touch with and it got proposals for what i should say and what i should do and why i should do it and all that sort of stuff and i candidly love it like this is stuff that was really hard for me like i'm not naturally a person who's just like you know ultra network or like you guys are where i'm just like i gotta keep in touch with everybody and so now i've kinda put an in the loop and said like hate me help me be better at this stuff and yeah i just i literally wake up in my sunday morning briefing it says here's all the accounts you need i've already drafted the emails in your inbox you just need to review them and make edits rep press in and i think there's like something to this where you know if you if you do a good job of like building these tools up they'll kinda start telling you what to do and you do have to keep your brain on because if you turn your brain off you'll probably sound dumb from time to time but by and large i think these things make pretty good bosses for certain use cases well brian hall the one of the founders of hubspot he he either came up with this idea or it was in an interview where jack do from twitter came up with the idea and his on brian's podcast but they basically said a lot of people are confused they think it's gonna be a human brain or a ceo in the center and then all these agents running around doing stuff he was like that's not the way to look at it ai is the brain ai is going to be the ceo in the humans their job is just giving it information and then making some judgment calls if it wants to listen to the ai but in general the ai should actually be me be making the hard decisions because it's likely gonna do a better job and so that kind of like changed how i thought about it and it sounds like that's sort of what you're saying without saying it that way well i think so right if you are able to hook up all of your company's institutional knowledge to the ai it's gonna be able to reason over way more information than a human ceo like it just can like it can it could look at every single commit to the cob base it can read through every single customer conversation it can scan every comment about you on reddit or x or linkedin or whatever so it just knows way more than you as a human is ever gonna know and so that's gonna make it way more useful for certain types of decisions like at like to start right now it's like you use it as an assistant to sort of help you make these decisions but it seems pretty plausible to me that you might start saying hey i i'm gonna take a suggestion more often than not in certain right places yeah i think that's not true i wonder wonder if ai is gonna have like because you you know the upside would be ai that is not gonna have the emotional roller coaster that a human would have or fears that would hold it back from doing the right thing or avoid you know avoiding conflict or you know different things that humans have as their biases and then i wonder if we're gonna have to come up with the cognitive biases of ai to watch out for like okay we know we have this sort of sunk cause fallacy and we have this bias for rec bias what is ai is gonna be because we're gonna need to be aware of those the more we'd sort of turn over decision making to ai yeah today's podcast is brought to you by my friends at merck three they make the world's best banking product i think you know this already i used mercury for all of my businesses i think i have like maybe seven or eight businesses we use mercury as our business banking across all of them and now they actually just launched a personal banking account so i have my personal account there i moved off of wells fargo in chase i'm just all in on mercury why i like products that are easy to use i like products that get me and the problems that i have so like very easy to make a joint account with my wife very easy to spin up virtual cards one click and i get savings yield it just has all the stuff that i need in one place so if you're looking for the best banking product on the market it's definitely mercury i will fist fight any way to who disagree disagrees me on that go to mercury dot com slash personal and learn more mercury is a fintech not an fdic insured bank banking services are provided through choice financial group and call them an a member's fdic so you run a company that's worth billions of dollars how many decisions are you making a day that it's actually weighed versus ai well i i would say like any high stakes decision the ai is weighing in on now like you know there's sort of a seat at the table and you know the exec meeting and the board meetings and all that sort of stuff where we're asking the ai to like surface those things is there an example where ai kinda changed your mind or got to the right answer that you weren't at and you decided to go with it here's an example of a place where i find ai to be really useful let's come back to the hiring example so you know we we run a bar razor process where i approve every job offer that goes it off but like exec team member sort of is on the final part of the hiring loop it's intended to audit the hiring process in addition to sort of figuring out hey is this person gonna elevate the culture or the work etcetera here happier now in the past pre ai when i would go through those approvals i would often you know if i would come across a candidate where i was not so sure on i could kinda smell something is wrong i've just done enough interviews now i've interviewed thousands of people i looped looked over thousands of applications where i just have more reps than most hiring managers have like most hiring managers pay hire one or two people in a year it's like i'm i'm i'm just looped over like way way more volume i've and so i don't always have the language to say like why it's wrong but i can still smell it i'm like and so i would often go to these folks and be like are you sure something that's off like i don't i don't think they have this this or that and it was interesting that interaction with my staff was always a little bit fraud like folks would be like well i stand by this person like wait or you just gonna make the hiring decision if so like you just if you don't wanna hire them don't hire them and it sort of be like and i'd kinda be like well that's not really what i want right like i want you to make the decision i'm just trying to like give you some guidance here and i want you to sort of be able to you know reason through this problem and if you've answered it like if you have confidence that you have so you know efficiently answered it that i would back you let's go hire this person but if you haven't then i want you to like take this into account and go figure out like you know is there more information you need to get or do you need to adjust your course etcetera but that's not often how it would play out it would just sort of play out as like well does wade want me to hire this first order to just wait not want me to hire that right and i and i'm like like so anyway that's kinda what it was happening pre ai post ai i'd run the war council or like my hiring committee over these folks and then i would notice like it's just more articulate than me it could sort of say hey i noticed that you know this person has these traits in the panel did not sc this so you need to go sc this and it would you know it give like a score of like here compared to everyone you've hired its app here here's how here's how likely i think they're gonna be successful or not and so now i could take that to the hiring panel and say like hey the the ai said this i agree like what what what's going on here and i noticed all of a sudden the behavior shift where people would go like oh interesting i think the ai did get this in this right but i think it's wrong on this and here's why because i have this other context that it doesn't have and i'm like great that's all i was wanting know like want like what else what else am i missing what am i not seeing here and i just found that like maybe because it's not maybe because it feels like arguing with ai is easier than arguing with the ceo or maybe because it's more el and it like actually has a way of talking that makes it like easier to address the specific points i'm not exactly sure but i did notice the way we made decisions around hiring got better in part because we added the the eye to the loop i don't know if you guys were ever like believers in some of these personality tests like there's this thing called culture amp i think it's called where it's like a software where you do personality tests before you hire someone ray has his version of it whatever and there's like tends to be it's like a scale people where people follow in where they're like i don't believe in anything involving like personality tests i've have noticed with ai i have fallen closer to the side of like i follow what it says because i've done some of these personality tests and i've used it to train my ai and it's helped me a lot but when it comes to hiring do you guys buy into this at all when it comes to personality test and like figuring out if a person could be good for the job because that makes with ai it makes the process so much easier what do you think sean i i go the the other way meaning it's not really about personality test per s but i find that you know like with self driving one approach was let's put all the sensors on the car let's get cameras just get more cameras let's get lidar let's get radar let's get sonar let's give you put a what else we do taste test what what what are all the different possible sensors you could put on the car and the tesla approach was basically like it needs vision and he needs eyes only and one of the reasons why people thought it was for cost which was i think a factor that like light hours was very very expensive it was not practical in the long term but this the reason that elon says that he's that it was because when you have two too many sensors you get too much conflicting data and you don't know which one to trust it makes more faulty more error prone and actually what you should do is take only the minimum number of sensors needed but then train the train the hell out of them that's kind of my approach to hiring where i now simplify i need less time to to spend with somebody and i look for fewer things and but those have to be home runs otherwise i'm just not gonna hire the person so what what does it that yeah yeah answer the question though like how do you get okay what you're saying is instead of looking at like hundreds of questions you're looking at three questions are you good at this this is okay so how do you gather that information so again stealing for me elon he he talks about the you want evidence of exceptional ability so all i'm looking for i'm not looking for like though the fir first filter is just evidence of exceptional built building so i'm not trying to assess culture fit right now i'm not asking do i like them i'm not asking like do they have the relevant experience all i wanna know is have you done some exceptional shit before and then tell me that story and in that story i wanna try to understand did you do it or were you on a team of people doing it or were you writing somebody else's doing that that thing and if you really haven't done anything exceptional the odds of this being the place where you have the the final you know the first exceptional thing of your career is not really a bet i'm excited to go take and so that's the very first filter that i'm looking for and that's not personality test driven then after that is a kind of personality test of like do i try to do something with them where i get the you you know gut gut feel of like do we have creative chemistry do i feel like this person is good to have in the room when i'm trying to figure something out or do i feel like they don't they're not they're not elevating that conversation when that happens and so i'm really just kind of like a two step filter and that's it and that's all i wanna signal but obviously like i'm not running the size of org that way it is and i'm i'm use i'm working with google working directly with me in a very very small team where everybody has to be you know ten x or better otherwise this is not worth having them on the team and so that's the i've learned that kind of the hard way because i used to do it very differently yeah we so we've done some work with this so like we've done like myers briggs type stuff internally at times we've done there's this one called be that we've done at times i have found it to be moderately useful i have a ceo buddy who runs this public company in columbia that does disc profiles for every hire and he's like consistent where it's like if i have an accountant they need to be this profile that's started it on it's like they're not they're not gonna be a good fit on the team i'm knock on that far i think what i where i net out is that i mean you do need somebody who is exceptional first and foremost like everybody's got a personality type but it doesn't tell you if you're good or not like you know you you can score whatever you're gonna score but you still need to be good but i do think that like teams matter like and when i look at my my personality or my way of working there are things where i am exceptionally good at and there are certain defaults that i have where i know that if i am partnered up with somebody who has like a complimentary traits i'm gonna be way better because they're gonna have my backside in places that i i don't know if like there's any science behind but if you look at my ea versus mine like myers briggs she has three different letters than i do so there's four letters in that and three of them of hers are different and she does like have she like likes doing things that i don't like doing and she's good at those things that i don't like doing and it ends up being like pretty helpful because he gets kinda like in sports where it's like you know you've basketball to team it's like well you need somebody that's gonna you know michael jordan's is gonna shoot all the shots well you need dennis rodman who's gonna like lock down d and grab boards but are you doing that for when you guys are hiring we don't do it no we don't actually have people like take a test and say like hey what are what are you going to do different hiring managers are probably doing it somewhat like by look organically yeah but it is not a science for us i've have i've have an idea for how i think companies could use ai to improve their hiring i don't know if this is like fully like legal i don't know if you could do this exactly the way i'm gonna describe it but here here's the exercise i'm in you you go through your team so you have all the all the past hires you've you've made in the last let's call it three years and you could stack rank who's exceptional who's acceptable and who's kind of like been a source of kinda hit or miss performance let's say cool so you could stack rank employees and your team and you could say great you also have maybe the the transcripts or the the recordings of all the interviews that they did right so you have this historical pattern that you that you have with all of them and then you have new people that are coming in and like so because when i was at twitch they use the amazon bar raise thing that you described and they're trying to do like the human version of this it's like here's this guy who's seen a thousand interview panels who will come in and kind of like standardize the the hiring process but also like provide the most experienced voice on hiring and then they're kind of checking this candidate against this pattern of past candidates as well as against your values and you know the the the role the role in mind and i just think ai is gonna be way better at that than people i think it's gonna be like dramatically better at that and i'm surprised that people aren't using like kind of the training data of your existing team to inform the next hire do you think it would work like i i don't know for sure if if ai i would be good at that but i i kinda think that would that would be helpful i mean i i remember google sharing like a lot of their hiring insights where they did a ton of tests around this stuff like this and i think what they found was that no hiring managers were like had an edge over any other hiring managers with one exception and the one exception was that there was like this hyper specific specialized group of like technical talent where there was like only like an inn of like a hundred people in that domain and it's just like their hit rate was better because it was like well there's just only a hundred people to do this thing and so i don't find that a very satisfying answer like it feels like there should be something to what you were saying also something that i've been thinking about a bunch like i was thinking a large percentage of the people who work at my company which is like thirty five or something they we work here in this office out here and they're here because basically on board and i want someone hang out with most days like that's like probably seventy percent of the reasons why i have a company just because i like want someone hang out with because i'm not good at friends yeah lines are hard employees or he's a hard starting starting llc is easier which sounds like a joke but like i any you know i'm sure sean you agree like you sean has sean sean has a guy who works with him he's like if you can work for me if you move here and we hang out every day did yesterday i was like i'm kinda done working i wanna play fortnite nine and we just played fortnite for a couple hours like can you guys i need a pickle ball partner can you come be my employee i mean that's kinda how it is i just wanna like people but when you have okay and now i'm not i want you to put like let's be the ceo war console and i need you to be like crazy wade not real wade so anything said for the the rest of the section you can be you could kinda go on hinge un butt okay yeah but we're war wade yeah i don't know how many employees you have now but you used to have seven hundred what do you have now it's like seven thirty or something like that it's not that when you have like remote employees like for the most part you only know them as just like slack avatars right like you don't know all seven hundred people and they many of you them don't know you other than like this guy on zoom and someone who blogs occasionally it kinda like begs the question like what if they were all just like or like kim like one person just be like ten or thirty different agents that they monitor and you only have like twenty employees i i think that there's definitely a school of thought where i've heard that i i do think there's limits to this and the way i think about the limits is that it it's kinda like how a manager has like an ideal span of control where it it's like oh i can only have like you know i don't know the the rule books says eight i think you know you're seeing people push the limits now to have like you know ten or twelve or if you're jensen and you've got sixty or whatever but there's still a limit where it's just like i just cognitive cannot like keep up with like this many people but you don't keep up with that many people anyway like when you have a company like there's stuff happening that you don't even know about mh well why wouldn't you just have it be one of your agents well so you could but the thing is you're only gonna be able to keep up with what twenty agents because it's gonna keep assigning you tasks and more things to do and more things to do more things still is like a there still is like a limit but i'm not saying that it would be like just weighed what i'm saying like do you think that there's a world where let's just say that hypothetically you guys do close to half a billion in revenue is there a world where like twenty people could do that for a company like zapier i'm not sure but definitely like a company could certainly do that in fact we've already seen companies that are gotten to like that size on very small numbers of revenue which ones well i mean shoot like minecraft back and before microsoft bought it was like i don't know how many people but it was like less than a hundred i think and it made a you know a whole bunch of money there was that new york times story that came out this summer about that guy who was selling like gl one stuff yeah you we had him booked as a guest on the podcast and that article came up the day before and he canceled on us well yeah like y know he's doing like i i don't know how many employees he has but i think it was like maybe one or two yeah how many inmates does you have now two rates yeah how many cell mates does you have but but i mean you also could think of someone like like taylor swift like taylor swift has a very very small team from what i understand and is you know printing you know billions a year or something like that or at least at her peak was so i i know i think it just kinda depends on the business maybe just the philosophical thing of like do do you think that the way so the way work worked before was you start off as an individual contributor and then you can become a manager where you manage a fleet of individual contributors yeah is that then and maybe in the corporate world your value was proportional to how good you were at managing people is the new world where your value the thing you get the amount you get paid is based on how well you manage ai agents right like how how how big of a fleet can you manage and how effective is that fleet is that the new managerial skill yes i i feel pretty confident that that is the direction we're heading to sort of saying i mean i don't wanna put words in your mouth but you're sue said the same thing and i'm genius yeah like you're you're i i we we got there we got there and again this is ruthless weight so you i don't want you to like think that you have to like hedge or apologize but there's still different roles in a company right like you're you know you're think of like your sales team like i still think that for certain purchase categories we still wanna talk to a human we still wanna buy from a human do you want your sales reps every day waking up and managing fleets of agents or do you want them talking to your customers and helping build those relationships and close that trust and all dah for that role i'm like i think i kinda want you build in the human relationship more so than like doing a bunch of ai stuff i definitely want you to do some ai stuff but it's not necessarily like hey you know mister mist like sales leader or or like frontline sales ae like go manage these twenty reps that are gonna actually do the sales for you can i switch gears for a second how old are you i turned forty this okay so you were if five billion dollars is your value you were in the ballpark of being a under forty billionaire give or take does that feel strange because you seem like a guy who does not particularly even though i was teasing you you seem like a guy who doesn't particularly care about money or success other than have it a good time i mean it it feels honestly it feels a little fictional to even hear you say that i'm like i don't i don't think of myself like that way and and it and it it sort of is like so much is like tied to like the paper the paper worth of zap at any given moment in time it's like the voting machine like i don't have liquid dollars that look like that you know i i have some amount that's liquid describe describe your psychology around money so how do you think about it how how do you use it in a way that improves the quality of your life how do you avoid it so that it doesn't mess up certain parts of your life make us a little smarter just share your perspective yeah i think look it's a lot of this stuff is like highly personal and like what do you care about in life and for me then like things one two and three or my family and so you know i wanna be around my family have like you know provide for them you know make sure that they sort of are able sort of live a good life by whatever definition i have of that and truthfully like once you get to like a certain amount of wealth like more wealth doesn't change that equation what what do you think that level is i mean shoot if you come live in central missouri it's not that much yeah i think you could do just fine with like a million bucks and you know do quite well mean shoot when i i when i was i remember when i just got out of college my my dream was if i could only make a hundred thousand dollars a year that was my dream i was like if i could make a hundred thousand dollars a year i i was like man i'll be set that was mine too by the way it was yeah it was like if i can get out and work at k g and get sixty grand i can mike get to a hundred gram form thirty and then i am set baby now that that was the goal and i i don't know like what partly that's you know i don't have like a lot of devices i don't have like a lot of expensive hobbies and things like that do you do you do anything cool with your money you know when i go to a restaurant i don't look at the how much the items cost no fine that i and so you've raised money so you have to have some type of likely presumably you're gonna you want to have some type of exit event whether that's ipo or selling the whole thing is there any that you have on your bucket list that you'd wanna like if you're like okay if i get over a billion dollars liquid i wanna change this about my life or there's something interesting i wanna do no there's there like not nothing that i couldn't already do you know like i i remember my grandpa like his dream was always to go on a safari and he never got to go on one i always thought like that was an incredible thing and so when my girls are old enough i'm like let's go on a safari but i do that now i don't need billions of dollars to go on a safari the reason i like asking you about this stuff is because you are very well rounded and you seem like we had this like joke called like the total man it was like like like a buddy of ours or a podcast guest who was like kind of like the perfect package like they were like ruthless when they need to be ruthless they were sweet when they needed to be sweet they were smart they needed to be smart but they were still a good hang and like i said like dart has that and you definitely have that too so i like hearing your opinion on topics where most of the people ourselves or myself included talk about it from they're broken they have a chip on the shoulder perspective whereas i don't think you have that you have a you have a far more wholesome and a positive outlook when it comes a lot of the stuff so that's why i like hearing you talk about some things where you don't typically peer an emotionally healthy person give their perspective on i no i was really lucky like i grew up you know with a like a you know a a family that was all sort of like you know like my parents were married my two grandparents that were married i have like aunts and uncles and cousins that were all sort just like really tighten it but if i was like give a shout out to any of those like i i gotta talk about my grand dad like you know my has is world war two vet but you know what i i i didn't know him as that i just knew him as this guy you know who would like always had time for his grandkids he died his ninety eight and a half and he basically lived by himself the entire time i knew him he drove himself up until two weeks before he died he walked three miles a day every single day two until two weeks before he died he did the new york times cross puzzle in penn every single day and i remember going to you know after he died we were at the the funeral home and they were trying to like plan out all this stuff you know most ninety eight year olds when they died it's like they don't got any friends there's just nobody gonna be there because everybody who's everybody who would have been there has already died you're ninety eight like they just he just made it a long time and i remember the staff saying like okay like you know we'll probably just do like a you know the the receiving line or whatever will be you know like we'll just do like thirty minutes or an hour or whatnot and that receiving line is there for three hours people just like coming through nonstop and you know just members from every single walk of life like he had you know when he was a he had all these teachers that were coming through that remembered him he was like big with the dare program like all these highway patrol coming through all these members of the church coming through all his extended family coming through and i remember that like standing out a lot to me where it was like here's a guy who you know was was great at family and great at professional stuff and i just that that to me was like just a really good example of you know someone who got their like priorities doubled like like dialed in really really well you know he didn't have it all but he didn't need it all it's like the things he cared about he he he nailed him and so to me that's always like stood out is like what what a good life looks like sounds like a good role model i think that you definitely seem to embody that where like like i said you are great at business and also like don't have this jackass side that most people who are where you are seem to have right sean yeah yeah we i first i love that story that you just told that was actually like a really awesome an awesome story and also you know i think that the value of what you just said you said two things i stood out to me you said he didn't have it all but he didn't need it all and i think you know been thinking about this a lot lately which is that you're you're really only as as rich as what you don't need you know basically like if you don't in that that's whether that's material things or other right if don't need the approval or or attention of others you're free you're rich you know because you just don't need that it's not one of the things that you have to go pay the cost to go get i'm right like you know you don't have to go be super flashy on social media because you just don't care for it and so i think that's like such an underrated attribute and when you said that it kind of remind me sounds like your grand right grandpa i had that kind of that way of life and the other was you know there's defining what winning is so it's like if winning is just in the work domain our winning is just in one you know justin in and and and one if you have to kinda decide what it is for you it sounds like pretty early on you got clear on that and then the clearer you are the less likely you are to be blown around with the wind you know if the media portrays jeff bezos or elon musk or whoever as like the titans and then you say oh i guess that's what winning is and then you're you know soon enough on your you know multiple divorce and your kids i'm like whatever whatever you can go it's easy to go down a certain path if you didn't have like a really grounded belief system around what winning is and have examples of people who've have won that way because you'll get a lot of examples of what what i call one dimensional winners michael jordan neither this the the ultimate i'm a bass fan so i grew up being like jordan is the goat he's the greatest he's the best and he is when it comes to basketball but he also had many things and his personal i don't wanna to emulate so as much as i wanted to be like mike on the court i did not wanna be like mike off the court i think it's worth the time to do what it sounds like you've done which is kinda like find find whatever that north star is for you so that you kinda have a clear picture in your head it makes all future decisions really easy totally i love that like you know define your own definition of winning and you know if you do that well like some of your decisions might look odd to others they'll be like why why are you doing that that way you could do this you could do that the other but you'll be a lot happier when you're just like this is what i wanna be doing and you know what you wanna be doing is you know running a software company and y great go do that if what you wanna do is you know be a teacher and you know help students do that like if what you wanna do is you know i don't know live on the coast or living the it's like what what is it that sort of like is winning for you do you have any examples of that i mean you are very successful and you moved from san francisco back to jeff city so that's like an obvious one but like are there any other like strange zap or weighed decisions that you've made that you think that the normal silicon valley guy would be like that's insane i would i'm in the sort of remote work story is one where we've just never had an office way before anyone thought that that was normal you know we only raised the one round of money like that was like pretty odd at the time like you know we're we're building this business for like the long haul and so again i constantly good question around like what about i mean heck you guys are asking me about was like what about the what's the valuation what's the and i'm like it'll be what it will be like we're here to grow it for our customers like that's the thing i care about not these other things and you know i think if we do a good job of that then sure the numbers will follow but that's not the point like the point is like the the the work itself and i think that's you find that with anyone who loves what they do yeah you ask them this is where i think feel like the media gets a lot of this like narrative around billionaires wrong is they're like you know they're they're rewarding their money and all this this stuff i mean look i don't know all billionaires i've i've gotten to meet a couple and you know dha hal like you know guys like this who i don't know they genuinely just seem like they like what they're doing and like they're gonna keep doing that whether or not they make you know a little bit of money or a lot of money the the test has played out yeah they did it before they hit were making any money and kept going when there was no clear line of sight to money when they made the money they kept doing it so it's doing it wasn't about the money because i just doing it think athletes are the same way like you look at like olympic athletes olympic athletes gonna make a lot of money but they just love doing it and they're just gonna keep doing it no matter what you see it in you know professional sports where like guys are you know at the tail end of their career and they probably should be retiring but they keep playing because i just love playing and they'll take the they'll take the lesser contract they'll do all this other stuff because it's like i just can't i just love this game like i love doing that thing so sean listened to this one time i think in two thousand and maybe two thousand nineteen wade spoke at hu khan in oakland california and this was right i think before you raised your round i i think but you were you guys were the hottest thing going and you came and talked and i thought it was awesome and i don't know if you remember this way but you and i sat backstage for like ten hours and all the speakers would come and go and they would have to pass to this room and i think i don't i i don't know exactly if this is how you felt i think you did the same thing i wanted to do which is like these people would come in and we would just stare and like observe how they were behaving because it was kind of fun to have like you know billionaires or like these big shot ceos was just like interacting with you having a normal conversation it was really exciting it was like people watching on steroids and we were just were kinda staring adam but i remember you sat with me i don't know if you remember this like it was like eight or ten hours it was like the entire day and i was do you get somewhere to be and you're were like nope i just like being here and i remember that you you're doing that and it seems like you i have a change where it was like you are very you were successful then now you're incredibly successful but it was a very similar personality where you still very curious yeah i don't remember it being eight or ten hours but i do remember it was all day like they got it nine i think we left at four have a look at maybe it was yeah yeah i mean you you got good you pulled good guess man like who wouldn't wanna just like sit backstage agent like listen to how all these people are running their companies and what's working for them and what's not i mean shoot i'm i i'm almost certain i had a notebook of ideas that i sort of took back and i was like you were this we're gonna do this yeah i mean the awesome thing is like you know back when you were doing that like i feel like podcast podcasts weren't quite as big of a deal but now like god you can just like pour over this stuff and you just have like notes for days on things that you can just go try and just like alright see if this works for me do you what do you listen to what do you consume on a regular basis book well my podcast whatever my favorite podcast i gotta you give a shout out to the acquired guys like i i mean this just ten out of ten like you know most of those things they do a deep dive on or just these legendary entrepreneurs who have like you know did it for decades leave us a leave us with a recommendation give us a acquired episode we should listen to and maybe a book that you like well the a nfl episode if you like sports at all like you know that is a good entry way into acquired though probably my favorite series is all the retail ones so there's like a like a c like i think it's costco walmart and amazon and there's sort a trifecta right in there that are like oh really really good as for a book i i recently finished this book make something wonderful it's says steve jobs like in his own words is that really good one yeah i think steve jobs you sort of he has like a larger than life reputation this book is literally just emails speeches literally just like his own his own thinking and it's sort of organized roughly chronological and so you get to kinda just see his progression of like you know v one apple the pixar years v two apple and you kinda just see how he he changes sort of like over time sean do you have a a book that you read recently you wanna recommend yeah there's a book called the score have i talked about that here see ty wynn is the the the guy's name on the cover but it's called the score how to stop playing somebody else's game and this is a guy who the the fundamental premise of the book is amazing he's so he's talking about like the power of a game so he's like imagine a game let's say we take pic dictionary we open up a game of pic dictionary games are this incredible thing because they tell you what winning means so they tell you the rules what you're allowed to do they tell you the the score board so like how you game how you win in this game and and like what your goal should be so they dictate your goals they dictate your behavior and then they also sort of dictate who you need to be to be good at this game and he's like let's take a game like char trades to be great at char aids you're gonna have to be loose you're gonna have to be highly comm you're gonna to be a great team player whether you're the guess or you're the actor doesn't matter but then let's say you play risk it's like you're gonna have to be like ruthless dominating you're gonna so like he's like it's amazing if you just take the idea of a game how it will change your behavior and he's like basically extends that to like the games in life and so he he describes like when he was his professor he's like i got into teaching philosophy because i love philosophy that of course that's why who else becomes a philosophy teacher he's like but then i discovered this leader board and it was like all the philosophy professors in the country and he's like suddenly i'd started well how do you get on that board right wanna be not on the board and so he can kind of innocently he's like oh you gotta get published he's like well then i realized like the way they get published the most and the fastest in these obscure publications about these types of things he's suddenly a few years in i hate what i'm doing he's like why am i even doing this like i'm doing studies shit that i don't even care about to get published get on our lead board that doesn't even matter why because i play games we all play games and so you have to be really careful about like games and the different types of ways you play there's like striving play which is like you play for the joy of playing versus like outcome based where you're playing to win and like you know you wanna be a driver for these reasons and that gets strive actually tend to win more too but they didn't play for that reason and like you can't just say well i'm not gonna play any game because like it's no fun let's say we're playing char aids and if you don't care at all about winning we're not gonna have a good time like the trick is to care about it in the moment and then completely let it go afterwards dude when you remember that oh the reason we're playing trades just so that we could have a fun time as a group hanging out not so that i got the most points in the game and so you know is there's all this like nuance around pretty good games and i and i think like because i think the biggest decision you make in life is what game you're deciding to play and how that will shape the the next ten years a year looks like it just came out too the book came out like six months ago yeah so i'm i'm digging that book right now i just finished i'll i'll wrap it up with this one wade you might like this one i i think you if i had a guess do you listen to blake two as a kid i i did did you sean i mean who didn't long as somebody wasn't yeah i read the biography of the memoir of mark hop who is one of the lead singers of blink andy two such a good book i read it in three days i couldn't put it down it was one of these books where like i had to force myself to put it down when i was going to bed at night because i was like it's staying up too late do why why musician biography so good they're so the light whatever of musicians and comedian what else do you have this red hot chili peppers guy anthony qui was that good long time ago i was like in college i read this thing and i loved it well this is his is good i think because he had a messed up and he party messed up childhood towards like up adulthood so he's like riveting these guys they weren't really that messed up but they got really famous like really fast and he talks about it and he's like you know a lot of i'm gonna this is really the chapter where i complained about fame and he's like just joking i love being famous it was awesome like people could to me all the time but they say they love by work it feels amazing and then he also later in life he got cancer he talks about like his cancer treatment oh such a good book if you guys want something fun to read mark hop has a biography and if you want like the closest called fahrenheit one eighty two i believe but anyway wait you're the band we appreciate you you have an invite whenever you want and thank you for everything you bet thanks for having guys alright that's it that's a pod i feel like i could rule world i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a day's off on a goal travel never looking back alright let's take a quick break i wanna tell you about marketing school it is a podcast that's part of the hubspot podcast network and it is run by neil patel and eric sue and these guys are both marketers who are running businesses and so if you want real world tactics from practitioners who are actually out there in the field doing it this is the podcast for you check it out wherever you get your podcast