This 3-hour Elizabeth Holmes doc broke our brains

alright so this is gonna be a movie discussion about the new nathan field elizabeth holmes documentary called you can see everything this is full of spoilers so if you happens in movie if you don't want spoilers don't watch this i feel like i could rule where to i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a days off on a road less travel never this is for people who have seen it and wanna react with other people to the thing except for sam hasn't seen it and i got i gave him out i said you don't have to get spoiled but you wanna get spoiled i wanna be spoiled i'm a grown man i cannot stand what people say i don't it's like dude just tell me everything that happens please well nathan field himself has reading an interview and he said he read some study they had two groups of people one that were spoiled and one that was un spoiled and they watched the movie and the enjoyment of the movie was higher amongst the spoiled group than the un unspoken group so he's like maybe there's something to it where people actually like it more when they kinda know what's coming so what's the premise here i all i know is that nathan field is like a sasha baron cohen light character where he's silly and sincere he had a show where he'd prank people but this seems sirius well we should lay the groundwork so sam hasn't seen the movie me and diego went and sought it last night but we didn't talk to each other afterwards we got out of midnight went home and then ben i think you're more of a nathan field or fan like you've watched have you been have you watched like nathan for you and the rehearsal like fully or partially or what yeah partially but i would definitely i'm a fan of his craft alright so sam your question is what's the premise of the movie so the premise of the movie is thirty four days before elizabeth holmes was going to go into prison so she post it's it's post all the scandal after she was already convicted now thirty four days away from going into jail and she's got two little kids and she's got her not husband technically i think fiance they're not married because she owes hundreds of millions of dollars in restitution so they didn't wanna get married and combine their finances but they have two kids and so they he called her his wife even though fiance alright so she's thirty four days away from going in and they they contact a twenty four about doing a movie together documenting her beforehand nothing comes out it nathan field finds out about this jumps on the opportunity moves in with her in her house tiny tiny house on the beach and del mar and lives with her for thirty four days and then for the next three years continues to like pursue the story in complete secrecy until it debuted at a random fill at the tell film festival a few months ago and surprise to everybody it was unbelievable the reviews coming out of her unbelievable now the movie is the like the top rated movie i think on box letter box rotten tomatoes and like movie critic dot com or whatever like some other services has the highest rating across all three of any movie it's the first documentary that's a favored to win best picture and i think it had like a blow out like block you know box office opening weekend basically like i saw someone say that nathan they're like i don't know if this is possible for documentary but nathan deserves best actor okay that's what that's what nathan would do you say something to and he just goes okay i don't and i also saw i think it was what's the director nolan what's his oppenheimer what but what's his what's his full name lance and he i think i think it was him and this was on stage at a conference a years ago and he was talking about how nathan feel there is amazing and that his technique for telling us story amazing the way that he uses angles like he was complimenting him as a director when everyone thought of him as a gag guy and then someone repo this and they're like he was not joking he was being serious and if you see the new movie you see exactly what he's talking about because it appears as a was there like some ways that the camera was working that helped tell the story yeah i mean most of the movie is shot like sam move your face all the way up to the camera most of the movie is that close yes is that close which kinda goes into the idea of you can see everything i mean and also she has this intense eye contact like she doesn't blink and you know they say like you know the eyes or the window to the soul and so you here you are you're that close with her you see her eyes that wide open and yet you walk away having for me at least no idea how to feel about it it's like i saw everything and i know less than i knew at the beginning i don't i don't know what you think so tell me i i have questions about the voice i have questions about if you think she did it but where do you wanna start thirty second summary of the movie so he moves in when they're con you know when she's getting ready to go to jail and first he's literally like kind of almost like a directory wearing his headphones he's behind the corner he's like trying to stay out of the shot so first he's just like fly on the wall trying to observe them and then by the middle and end he's now like one of the main characters in the thing because it's like he's a poor he becomes sucked into it so the the way the movie works is it shows her before she goes to jail and he's trying to figure out like is she a good person or a huge manipulator and like is she misunderstood or she a master that's a good way of putting it then it shows okay so that that's like the first kind of like half of the movie it's like her them together beforehand and he's trying to figure out who she is just trying to figure out did she it's not really did she do it but he's trying to understand like her her p like did you do you think you did something wrong why do you think you're going to jail and she's like i don't know what did she go to jail for and what are the the accusations of the she lied what did she lie about i think the best way to become successful is to see how other people did it whether you're gonna copy them or just use it as inspiration because then now you know what's possible so starting at the age of twenty four i did this relentlessly and i was very methodical about it she and i created a spreadsheet where i tracked roughly fifty people who were uber successful and i looked at the year that they were born the year that they started their apprenticeship and then the year that they started the first thing that made them successful finally the year that they broke through and i aggregated all this data along with the stories of what they did to be an apprentice and what they did to finally break through and i put it together in a database and hubspot went and found this thing that i frankly even forgot about but it did change my life and they resurfaced it they made it even better and they put it into a thing that you can download for free right now so if you click the link in the description or click the qr code right here you can see this database that i made when i was twenty four and it changed my life and so if you're looking to become successful or you're already successful and just want some more inspiration check it out so she's going to jail for def defaulting investors not for because she raised billions of dollars not billing i don't know she's like five hundred million yet okay she raised five hundred million dollars on this premise that she can create a blood test that uses barely any blood and it's revolutionary and you can go to cvs and get for five dollars and it tells you on the spot or or quickly the blood so a drop a blood basically would go into her her magic machine called d edison and she was this great inventor of this machine that would revolutionize the way the medicine is up because you could run this huge battery of tests like hundreds of tests or whatever on just a tiny bit of blood instead of going and getting huge blood draws and if people could do that with just tiny bit of blood they would get tests more often we would find you know problems before they you know got too far and we would be able to test for way more things and like somehow that was supposed be really good now if you've watched the tv show and other things like that and you've read the book bad blood you know basically what happened was the edison machine pretty much didn't work i think you could only do like twelve or thirteen tests out of the like hundred claimed and that they would take the blood and they would try to go it be like all the blood the machine is not working so today you gotta go get more blood drawn and they go run it to a a real machine that like was you know older machine get the test and pass it off as their own and she basically was telling investors that this works she was telling the public that this works she was telling partners like cvs or walgreens that this worked we'd but it didn't really work and she denies this but what's the denial is the denial the machine could have worked if you given me worked more time so the there's a key scene in the thing where it's like he's like reading her quote like you said the fact is that we invented a machine that can do any test on blood and that's amazing and then she's like yeah and he's like but that wasn't a fact the machine couldn't do that she's like it could he's like well like in the future it could and she's like the way the machine works is you put some blood in a cartridge it goes in the machine it goes to the cloud the cloud will ask what test you want and and it could any test that you want now the machine would be able to run that test and then he's like but it couldn't do all this he's like well we had to do the chemistry for each of those individual tests he's like so like you were kinda saying it's capable of running all these tests but it couldn't do it now and she kind of avoids the question like i i believe what i said it's that's what i'm she doesn't admit any wrong he's like but you see how that's confusing right like when you say it can people think that it can do it right now and you're saying that it can she's like it can and she looks out really kinda crazy and then you know and they're and also they're restarting their house while she's going to jail their they're like pitching investors and recruiting a team to like do it better now that they have ai they're like trying to do it again and she's like so okay that's one whole part of it second part of it is but for the record she has never admitted to doing anything wrong she's confused as to why she's going to jail okay i told know and he he's like did you ever have you like you know you lie did you lie she's like i've never lied he's like you've never lied you never been to a party and said alright like been like not feeling good can't come eric first she's first first thing he's like you've haven't lied she's like i don't believe i have i've always tried to tell the truth maybe when i was a kid he's like so since the age of eighteen you've never lied like i thought you meant like the types of things i'm accused of and then are my cuts right so like one weird thing is it's he's not actually trying to get to the bottom of the thing it's not like he's not trying to lit the case he's trying to figure out who is this person and was she is she what we think she is is she misunderstood and then the way the movie plays out the best way i could describe it is i would say you leave more confused as to what the truth is i think is that fair ben would you agree with that or no yeah i think i think you leave more confused but yeah but you also leave under standing what it's like to be deceived by her because you're like i don't know what to believe she did it to me too she did it to him she did it to him and that the crazy thing is like it's like the unstoppable force meets the i immutable object here you have the guy who himself creates these false realities for a living that's what all he did the rehearsal was literally creating false realities and but but like committing to the bit and then you see her even but while she's like going to jail and it's so real shit is so real now you're leaving your children you're gonna be in jail for years and she's still in a way committed to the bit and create if she has this reality that's clearly false but it's the question is does she not realize it's false or is she that good that she makes you think she doesn't believe it's false you know what i mean and and the you're confused because you went in thinking she's nuts she's a liar she's wrong and you left thinking she's nuts she lied but maybe she didn't mean it but what are you confused about then well alright there's two two ways to look at this one is did she just do the silicon valley kinda fake it till you make a thing except for she got kinda caught before she could make it and it it was health so it was higher risk so she kinda did the entrepreneurial thing like elon does when he says hey this is gonna be self driving we we'll be self driving at coast coast by next year but we don't look at him as this fraud stir it's just sort of this optimistic entrepreneur who's was trying to build the future and pitching it okay that's like the very very favorable version then you have this other which is like no she willingly knowing deflate investors and patients and that was really you know that's a messed up thing to do is she deserves to get a jail but like was she the mastermind or not and that's why the the second important part of the movie is a lot of it is about billy her or whatever he is her husband or whatever ben or a dig i describe you kind of who is this billy guy and what's your what'd you know about him coming in versus nap i knew absolutely enough i i i'd heard the name billy had no idea like his background who he was still don't really understand who he is husband boyfriend i don't even know if he was the father of the kids but you're telling me he he's it's very weird relationship didn't know much about him but i think he's an asshole like that that was sort of like my biggest takeaway from the he's an asshole two homes or to everyone else in general i think yeah he's just an asshole and i was sort of telling sean this of like i've learned this like there's certain archetype where he has like this dark and curly here hair it's probably like the third or fourth person that looks like this and he's turned out being an asshole but there's like this one scene in the movie where elizabeth is like scrambling eggs and she's just like not really she's like kinda half ass it they're in the mid conversation billy stops the entire conversation goes up to her takes the bowl out of her hand and just start scrambling it a lot faster like you weren't doing this right type of they're having a conversation that it just shows billy keeps looking out of the corner of his eye to how she's whisk the eggs but they're talking about something very important about what happened if there in us it keeps looking and then he can't resist he just grabs it he starts doing it and then nathan like it stops the conversation he's like doesn't keep going on the serious top he's like what was what was wrong with the way she was doing it and he's like oh nothing was wrong i just you know i wanted to help her and then nathan just sits there in the silence and then was like he thinks i don't do it he thinks i wasn't doing a good job of it he's like what but do you mean who's that who's alpha in the relationship well that's kind of the way this comes to show so one of the arguments that she made in her defense and that the kind of the movie tries to make is she's this innocent ideal list and she was taken advantage of at their by the sunny ba the guy she was romantically dating this like older indian dude who she was dating for like a decade and there's one one kind of one out for her is if he was the guy who's was pulling the strings okay now they don't talk about that but they draw this huge parallel by showing her relationship with billy now where he's clearly the guy pulling the strings meaning it's his idea to do the the documentary he's kind of the one interfacing with them there's a big part where he goes behind the her back in a way like he they they're they they this scene before they started filming where they go to their house to me and they're talking about what this movie would be how it would work and she reads this like excerpt from her book that's like flower poetry that she's writing about like her experience and they're like cool cool writing you like nice and then she's like the baby starts crash she has to go upstairs and then billy now that she's gone he's like alright i wanna talk you about one thing which is we want a piece of the action we want we want a piece of the upside here and then h four is like that's not typical one a documentary it's not a good idea because it's sort of like blur the ethical line of like are you just gonna be doing this for profit or do you really want your story told in fact isn't that one of the main things you're trying to argue is that no she didn't def fraud these people to to self enrich she doesn't care about money and yet you're gonna ask for money out of this and then people will question did you do this for money just like that right you see why that's problematic and he's like harry and meghan got a hundred million for their documentary so ja saying we want our fair share and so they and then they're like well we didn't have much leverage so we agreed to it and so the whole thing is and then she doesn't know that he did that or she claims to not know we think but we don't know how could she not know they're so close they have just like crazy like trauma bond blood she addressed the voice they didn't talk so they didn't talk about the voice they didn't have a lot of things this is kind of the criticism i would have with the movie which is like you know for example under oath she testified she admitted that she added like the like the f the pfizer logo to some documents when she presented to walgreens that beta looked like they had signed off on her tests but they hadn't and that was completely misleading and that was illegal and she admitted that which kinda like breaks the whole premise of she doesn't really know she doesn't lie like she admitted to that under oath and he doesn't bring that type of stuff up dude and i think i think that like two things aren't being mentioned and tell if they were mentioned i didn't follow i didn't read the book but i think that one of our employees killed himself because he had to testify or something like that and he thought he was totally innocent and the pressure was like getting to him he's like i can't believe got dragged this i think he i think a a guy committed suicide and then i also think that there was both now this is i'm not sure about this but tell me if it's right that some cancer patients were told they didn't have cancer and vice versa is that right i don't know those two things i haven't looked into that much to know but also you did learn what she like yeah what's he like what she like which is the thing you didn't know right like the case has already been lit with all the evidence that existed if you wanted to see it you could go see that what you didn't know is what does she really like and i would say you kinda got the elizabeth holmes experience or you're like in her weird reality distortion field and you walk away not not fully knowing what what to believe and what not to believe and you didn't give it what what did you think about the movie by the way i mean i think seeing what she's like is the question i wanna know but anyone famous or in the know that you'd never get like i don't know i find the what is the story of the company to be not that interesting more the lens of what does she like is the most interesting thing because you never get that unless you know someone will so how would you describe it what she like now that you've watched it three hours of watching her i think she's incredibly persuasive i think she's very engaging it's very easy to believe her you know it's they paint billy in a specific way but she doesn't see him in that way so i would say i mean overall i just thought the movie was unbelievably good like probably the best maybe the best we've ever seen terms of entertainment it was so good hey let's take a quick break you know that feeling when strategy is done the brief is written everyone's aligned and you realize someone still has to sit down and actually create all the content that someone is usually you and it's due tomorrow well the breeze assistant from hubspot can help it works right inside hubspot you can draft campaign copy blog posts emails all in your brand voice all using your actual customer data so you don't create just content you create content that converts check out hubspot dot com the agent customer platform for growing businesses let me ask you guys this so sean do you know who roy cohen is no okay so roy cohen was a very popular lawyer in new york city in the seventies and eighties and a lot of people regarded him is like a fairly evil guy because he would he's sued the government tons of times and but he was known as a pickle he was vicious and at one point he met this young developer who we thought was very promising and he was like gonna take you my wing and show you how to get things done in this city because and that young guy was donald trump and according to a couple books that i've heard about them a lot of people say donald trump showed a changed after hanging out with roy cohen because he learned the rules of power and one of his roy cohen bog made a list of six rules that they noticed roy went through and i don't know if roy actually wrote these down but they were some of the rules and the first rule was never apologized or admit wrongdoing ever always counter and always with greater force than you received use the legal system as a weapon not as not as a thing for justice manipulate the media ruthless use fear both as a shield and a sword and the last one was build a fortress of loyalty around yourself and the buyer was like these are like six rules that we have noticed repeatedly roy cohen used and he's kind of an interesting guy a study because he came from nothing and became very powerful and trump worked with him and so my question to you is do you did you notice anything about like the laws of human nature where you're like this is interesting like not that you're gonna replicate it but like was this inter this is interesting she is using this rule to manipulate and take control the see when you when you say that that makes perfect sense that that lines up with you know trump and and whatnot and actually even ben when you were saying she's very persuasive the crazy thing about the movie is that i expected her to be this kind of charismatic maybe like kind of ego act maybe very charming maybe very compelling maybe very persuasive but gotta have your your guard up because she's so she's gonna kinda hit you with such you know oh i could see why people fell for her she's completely disarming is her style so she doesn't try to convince you of anything she doesn't like turn it on she's not the center of attention she's the opposite it's like the whole thing is like she's just like i don't know i don't know what to tell you i don't know but then you're like wait is this some nine dimensional chest where she's so disarming that i am disarmed and that like in the subtle thing works because she was so seemingly uni interested in charming you or presenting anything like she doesn't wear makeup oh whoever's was called you could see everything like you know what mean there's there's one moment when they like kind of somewhere an hour and where they show her watching the dropout out which is this like fictional show made about her that on hulu and they show kind of two or three ridiculous scenes and you're just obviously agreeing that's not how she is and i think that's a good example of like where you're at mentally in the movie you're like oh she would never do that that's so far off that sound like oh i i i couldn't see her doing that so so kind of the genius of the movie is you know her argument is i've been portrayed as a monster that's not me and then other people say no you are a monster and then you know one other argument is that maybe so you know they're kinda saying the media is a bit of a monster they they because they made me look like a monster which is not true the media tells these un untrue and then another defense is like well maybe she wasn't the monster maybe sonny was the monster billy is the monster and then in another is no she's the ultimate monster because of all that and the way the movie works is he kinda shows that it's all true everybody's guilty so it's like billy definitely manipulative comes across like a complete asshole you know he's he's the biggest kind of loser and i would say in the film at the same time one of the things he does halfway through so she goes to jail so it's like how you gonna do this documentary because she's in jail now you can't even see her on camera can't hear her audio nothing well one of the things that nathan field is famous for is recreating sets re enactment hyper realistic re enactment for example like one of his shows this guy is gonna have a difficult conversation like breaking up with his girlfriend so he recreate he builds to to the inch the same bar that guy's gonna go to hires paid actors who studied the patrons of that bar just so he can go in and feel what it's gonna be like to have that awkward conversation it's like it's like over the top that he did this thing where he's like he studied pilots and how if you re go listen to the black box footage which he spent years of doing he learned that the the number one like root cause of crash plane crashes is that there's this weird social dynamic between the captain and the c copilot and that the c copilot might notice something is wrong with the captain doing something wrong but they're afraid to dimension it they mentioned it too and when they mentioned it the captain slapped him down and then they don't say anything literally flying to their death and he's like that's so crazy so i wanna understand the social dynamic but he can't you know go where the pilot's go to airport he recreate the denver airport to the tea like with the tsa and he walks through and he's observing how the pilots sit in the lounge beforehand and he's watching them it's like this absurd methodology he has okay so in this movie he goes and he he brings halfway through the movie when she goes to jail he brings the actress who played her in the movie suddenly she's in the in his in this movie or who played her in hulu series amanda whatever s or something something like i don't what it last name so he brings her in and he shows her the footage is that we've been seeing in the first half of the movie she watches it has the same reaction that we just had so now it's like inception and then basically you see that whatever in a way she's kinda guilty she's extremely judgment quick to judge her and then she sees elizabeth's reaction to watching the series for the first time and how she's portrayed at how painful that was to watch and then she feels really guilty but she's like yeah like and everybody knows this is tv like it's fiction it's like well that's a lie right fiction is a lie so it's like you're bad at her for being a lot be you you know you're obviously telling fiction and it's has a pretty big impact on the way the world sees her and her and then she gets really defensive about it but he's not track he's not attacking her either he just lets it all unfold as the movie goes on and so you see that like yeah i guess they're kinda guilty too for the way they did it the new york times reporting where it was like she says this thing where she says like that's not me that's a character i created and she's like i didn't say that and then new york time time's is like well we don't have record that you said it but we stand by our journalist i like well that's pretty important that you know that that thing so the whole thing is kinda and then and the kind of the the cherry on top is that like nathan the by the end of the movie the actors actress calls into questionable well nathan like are you also like kind of have you fallen under her spell like are you not telling me everything because maybe at some level you are trying to protect her too and why would you say that i'm doing that and then there's like this key scene and the whole thing that won't make sense to unpack but it's the scene of them in the ocean together that like was a callback to the beginning of the movie that's like kinda damning and then you're like what god it i walked out of this thing we all got we all got dupe by everybody what were her parents like what was she like as a kid well they show them her her parents showed up her mom didn't say too much there was a hilarious part where it's the morning where she's gonna go to jail and it's her billy there and kids are there her parents are there and date that comes in and he gives her a gift like before she goes to jail and the kind of a gag gift and what he ends up gifting her like something to like change her hair and sunglasses like in case you wanna make a run for it this morning like i i gave you everything that you but but he's he's he's ex parents with it he's like i i realize now in this situation it might be a bad taste but it's it's it's a wig and hair coloring a glasses and hair color in case you wanna flee but i i understand that might not be appropriate right now i'm gonna go to my car for a little he goes through in his car did that's it would make me feel sad as the kids too it's like because they're shown her kids and it would manipulate i thinking she's she's right before she's going to jail she's like she's like tells billy she's like i left milk in the fridge and then she's just like starts crying right because she's like not gonna be able to you know breastfeed her kids they showed her doing that many times now and she's going to jail for done period of time definitely crazy what when does she get out ten years so it's a ten year sentence i think she's supposed to get out in four or something right better she's she's getting out this year i think like are in the next year and what does it say what she was like in prison well they don't they don't know they don't say and you can't they can't show it so you know they talked about how like she gets like two minutes of phone time and they talked about some of like the difficulties of life there this is funny scene where they're in the kitchen and you remember how billy made like a ai recreation of elizabeth home actually right before she went to prison they like did this whole like went somewhere did like a photo issue and they were able would create like an ai version of elizabeth holmes and basically it got some point where like he could make her say anything yeah so so they show billy being like this kinda of super controlling he loves her but he's controlling and it may not be in her best interest but she loves him so devotion that she's okay with it and like maybe that's how she was at the nose with sunny and maybe that's why so basically he's sitting there at his dinner table there's the ai giant monitor of her just sitting there fake next next to him oh my god a three foot long cam dragon on the table which i guess is he's like pet dragon once she got unless she went to jail he's got this a crazy pet dragon and and he's talking about how he has power of attorney so they're like how is she tweeting and he's like well like you know she she has internet access but it's only email and like so how is she tweeting like well you know it's me physically typing being able she sends it to me like so she tells you like tweet this it's like well no she doesn't have to tell me i know i know her so what we're like this like we're we're one and they're like well that's pretty messed up you're posing as her people don't know that's you saying it not her he's like well it's i know what she would wanna say and they're like you see how that's like messed up right and streaming like be once what homes holmes dm to me once one built well i didn't know who was let read it i can't i can't this the the so the background of this is like there was like a controversy where people were like giving me shit and i like replied and i'm like no this is not true this here's the truth and he replied and it said he goes you handled that exceedingly well and i said i don't like reading that i said at lol makes me sound like a little girl but i said lol thank you but i can't decide if i want you to think that i handled that well he but thank you yeah did you gotta read your words i can't call movie alright then cry i'll read it crying laughing emoji back to you and then you say i'm being serious and then your response was perfect passion and humility and then that's it that's i did david the bottom there there's a there's bottom there something he just said want us to see but if you could see everything night no that it just said thank you that was that was the end of the conversation and then i said is this really elizabeth holmes who is us and no one replied my question is where do you stand on this this is one of those movies that i think you almost have to like let sit you like digesting i think in two weeks spot where i sit on this is so different than you know twelve hours later which is where are you is it just that she went to prison is it just yeah yeah i think so once i like go read the like i asked chat i was like what is the strongest damning evidence so here here's what it said i said what is the strongest damning evidence that elizabeth holmes committed fraud at their nose and it basically says here's the strongest one she personally doctor the pfizer reports at trial she admitted that she personally added pharmaceutical company logos pfizer representatives testified by they did not walgreens testified that the documents made them believe pfizer hit all those reports okay next one they staged fake demonstrations for for investors so they were told they're invited to use the blood testing machines they sometimes ran a no protocol and they appeared to be processing blood but actually but they actually weren't they were secretly being test on conventional machines manufactured by other companies and the investors believe they just witnessed breakthrough technology she knew the machines are failing but kept telling investors that they worked of the three hundred small s small sample assays that were developed by them only twelve were ever run on their own machines other tests were perform on third party equipment she claimed they were used on battlefield and they weren't which you know was like just directly not true and then you know this is more of the founder one like she projected two hundred thirty million dollars of revenue and actual income was one point nine four so yeah i think that's like the least one is billy rich how does billy make a living so she's in debt right like she'll never get out of this but how how survive it comes up in the movie he's like he's like did you ever were you ever concerned that she's lying to you and he's like no what a shift to gain for me he's like well your family's really rich right then his family start the fair i forget what hotel a hotel chain yeah they start they started a bunch of other hotels so he his defense was like well i mean we did my family did well but you know there's like levels to wealth and and so you know he's kinda well off then i think this movie was gonna pay them you know that was kind of the hope was that that he make money off this movie in the end he after nathan kinda like pushes and like that's like a big plot of the movie is like this this this thing about that he he tells elizabeth did you know that billy asked us for money and then you know she kind of dodges the question a little bit in the end he he took it back and and did ask for points on the movie so it sounds like a huge huge win for homes because before everyone thought this woman she evolves her there's nothing here and now at least people think maybe we're not sure or it's complicated and also i've seen so many smart people say this is one of the greatest movies they've ever seen yeah if we did like a biggest winners and losers i would say yeah ben who's the biggest winner in this whole thing nathan field their interesting think like i think nathan field goes from well known in a small group of people to like gonna be massively famous now probably and he did his life's work his stick felt like lock key found the perfect lock for his his unique key that he is so i think nathan biggest winner second in elizabeth mean i said seconds a twenty four just another win on a twenty four is not just another mask but if this is an a twenty four if they don't do this movie they're still late twenty four for her for her in nathan this is life changing yeah because at least now she can go in the speaker circuit now that a sixteen z can back her next round you know when she comes out of prison yeah exactly so i think she's the biggest winner i think biggest loser is billy has to be billy i think kinda next biggest loser is the actress but maybe i'm alone in that did you feel that way no i mean i personally did it but i think she had a lot of backlash online and like i think a lot of people said she came out is like too judgmental mental and stuff like that well she she was like this before she even met him this is literally just off of like watching the free before amanda met nathan no no before a man met billy she's watching with nathan the like pre cut like the the the whatever the rough cut of the movie and then she's is like talking him about what wears you from here and she's like i wish you could just dig up some dirt on him he's like on who like billy he's like you want me to dig up dirt billy why it's like she's like like break them up and show like you know what he's and he's like you want me to break them up she's like yeah i wouldn't want any woman to be with the guy like that it's like such a like kind of like yeah i kinda understood the but like whoa yeah that's supposed to say that i'm loud you know this cameras here right like wait what are you saying and she they were also this incredible scene where they go to his house elizabeth in jail while they're hank and he he's like can i bring like whatever her name is amy amanda can i bring amanda and and billy is like yeah and she's like does he know i'm coming and is he okay with that and like did he ask why he's like not really so they go and it's like billy the kids and a amanda on a couch at nathan over in the corner like like usual creeping and then elizabeth calls from prison and then billy is like hey we're you know kids are gonna go say a night in a second and amanda's here and then a amanda's is like oh no you only have two minutes i don't wanna you have a beautiful family she doesn't know what to say if she's panicking it's is she's like feels just cringe inner her body like convincing and then they like kids go to sleep it you could tell kinda are drinking for a little while and basically shit gets a little loose so billy is just like i'm gonna burn all these first to the ground and they're like what who he's like everyone he's like everyone and the he's like i got vengeance in my heart and i'm smart i'm strategic for smarter than all of them i'm honest i'm gonna i'm gonna take him my i'm and and then he's like they'll get you know they don't know what i'm capable of it and then he's like like harming them and he's like yeah and then it's like kind of weird so he's like kind of out himself as being somewhat evil and then she she starts kinda pushing back on or he's pushing back on her like he's saying he's talking about the people who do the hulu show the show runners evil people and then she's like kinda trying to defend it and he's like you know she lied and he's like you're an actress you know that's good you're you're fake for a living and and then she gets defensive as kinda they go back and forth and it's pretty and then and then there's like the car afterwards where she's reacting to like how much she hates them and he's like clear that like it's personal for her and she's pretty judgmental and so i i feel like everybody is guilty in this movie have you ever been to someone's house and like seeing how they live like i've i've been to like a couples house and see their kids and i'm like shocked where you they say there's like levels to wealth there's levels to like athletics and then there's like different levels of like weirdness and it's like these people live so differently from me i can't even it's hard to even empathize like i've met like a couple before and like their kid like boss them around and was like oh well our kids said that he doesn't wanna to do this so we're just not gonna do this and i i remember thinking i'm like that is crazy that that that is crazy people do that but there's like more extremes where you like you'll meet someone and you're like your kids are ten they go don't go to school they got long hair like you believe in like like like you like it's like crazy that people think that way and it's not necessarily i say crazy but crazy in the sense of like that's so unique and different from how i would do it not necessarily right wrong but you see it there's like different levels of how people live this seems like one of those experiments where you're like i believe these people actually believe this i believe that they live this way and that is so odd in the sense of like that is just so far from what the average person would be like but i also believe that what they're doing is true to them and they act like this even when there aren't cameras around and that's crazy how people get caught in this vortex this this is their reality and their reality is bizarre for the rest of us yeah like for example if i've hung out with a couple comedian before and i'm like they are funny all the time like they cannot be serious like they're i've never seen them act serious even in the most serious situations like if there was a hostage situation or they were dying of cancer there'd would be cracking jokes and that's just so different from how i it would ever reacted the situation but it's not a stick people are just they're they're they're strange or like when you see like a celebrity like saying aca capella like saying here you're like oh my god this is crazy even what they don't do use auto they're the best this crazy that this talent exists it's sort of like when you see this movie you're like i can't believe that this type of wild attitude truly exists and it's real they actually are like that yeah it dev definitely fell that way ben what do you think of that it's you know sam asked when i thought my overall thought is you gotta go see the movie like i think you gotta go see this movie like although pay for your to i'll pay for your ticket right now i'll have my instinct book for you to go in dude my wife is going on wednesday and she was like i'm without you because i told her i couldn't sit through a three hour got see and i just i just texted it her i said get a babysitter sitter i know that is true yeah i i think they believe what they're saying i think and yeah they're just so much different than normal people are and that's kind of but i think that's what it takes to build a multi billion dollar company even if it was fake right you gotta kinda be cray you gotta be crazy i don't think that's what it takes i think that is a version of what it could take baby the veteran way is saying is like if that's if that was the outcome you shouldn't be shocked by what you see you know how they are yeah i agree that's awesome alright you guys have convinced me to see the movie now because it is super long right yeah it's very long it's it's weird because in the middle of the movie i'm like how long is this movie and then it ends so abruptly that i was like i need more i didn't if you can't end there i need to i'd need more final and conclusion on this so that was that was least my feeling at the end today's podcast is brought you by my friends at mercury they make the world's best banking product i think you know this already i used mercury for all of my businesses i think i have like maybe seven or eight businesses we use mercury as our business banking across all of them and now they actually just launched a personal banking account so i have my personal account there i moved off of wells fargo in chase i'm just all in on mercury why i like products that are easy to use i like products that get me and the problems that i have so like very easy to make a joint account with my wife very easy to spin up virtual cards one click and i get savings yield it just has all the stuff that i need in one place so if you're looking for the best banking product on the market it's definitely mercury i will fist fight way to who dis disagrees me on that go to mercury dot com slash personal and learn more mercury is a fintech not an fdic insured bank banking services are provided through choice financial group and call them an a members fdic can we just end with i just wanna know for ben and and diego like what are your what were the moments of genius or the best part are you remember like what was what are you like still what's still like burned to your mind you know a day later or you're you know give me your your your favorite favorite things that stood out i mean i think the re enactment were just great like even just re enact the entire prison scene so basically he goes to visit elizabeth holmes in prison can't bring cameras in what does he do with the next best thing which just recreate the entire prison the whole inside half the guards have like prisoners come again the vending machines vending machine everything i just thought the re enactment i thought the storytelling was a plus i can't wait for nathan next big thing but yeah those are sort of my takeaways i the production budget was only five to seven million dollars i would say i would say the way nathan field or asked questions where you're like oh that's like i wouldn't ask that or would be uncomfortable asking it and he just asked straight up whether it's bigger or small he just stands there and asks and sits with the un uncomfortable unpredictability somebody said he he has a weaponized awkward ness at a level nobody's seen before meaning he's willing to sit in it just as long as you are the weird thing is she's the only one to ever match his crazy on that well what's an example ben of like a question david because i thought in some ways yes he he says things at a very like blunt but a lot of times i'm like ask the follow ask ask directly ask the thing directly he did he doesn't do it a lot of the times when he asked directly billy at least in the first half it like pulls them out of the room he's like oh we gotta go so he'll be like oh tell me you know he'll ask a question like we gotta go before they answer i mean this is a small one but he stays in the house and they put out a bed frame and i just remember being like wait so do you sleep on bed for you know he was like is there bed and because there was no mattress and i thought even that question alone the way he asked it was good i thought i liked the use of amanda to see free because i thought she was kinda saying what people were thinking a lot now i didn't yeah she was judgmental but i do think it was like a very medically normal person watching would act right yeah was very meta to bring her in who was seemed very normal in the way she was thinking about it so it helped me understand and helped it took someone less autistic in the room and she was like normal and she was just asking normal questions to help you process it i think you know i i just wanted more like i left wanting way more i want i i've tried to listen like eight podcasts after this and note none the podcast podcasts have delivered yet and what i'm looking for like i'm looking for an intellectual conversation to help me process i read like two hours of reddit till like two am then night after i watched it i'm just looking for like post game conversation which hopefully after sam sees it this can deliver on again because this was the first eighty minute the first eighty percent of this is just sean tell you what happened so i wanna i wanna get be cool it'd be cool to have tim draper on tim draper is see i've never talked to him but he seems like a pretty great guy and he was one of the original champions of elizabeth holmes it'd be interesting to hear his perspective because he got burned the hardest in terms of i think financially he got burned the hardest so ben if we wanted to give you what you wanted which is the the what what's doing it what do you what do you what do you wanna what do you mean honestly i was like i should go book this movie to go see it in an hour and take notes of all the things that i'm like go rewatch it with a notepad because i you know just take notes of the stuff i'm noticing because i i just wanna hear i wanna hear you guys break down what you thought without re retailing it for people that have seen it and like oh this was interesting for this reason or like i disagree disagreed with like here's my interpretation of what was happening we just get done doing a a fifty minute podcast and ben ends with what what do you want and ben goes not that you're not really delivering loving mean i mean for the first forty minutes if you saw the movie it's like sean's telling you his version that's you know obviously gonna be slightly worse than the movie you know no offense you know true the movie has all the spectacle where you're feeling how she is and yet to feel how she talks you know the trailer was one of the greatest trailers i've ever seen i saw the trailer i trailer was or the greatest trailer i've ever seen i think i saw i think i saw it originally when i was watching the odyssey or i don't remember where but it like it it it got more publicity it saw in theater i saw the i i think it was i think they had the trailer there and at the odyssey but it could've have been on i don't remember but i remember it's like wherever i was it was it was if i was seen that trailer out of nowhere when i was at a movie theater that would have been so electric that would have been absolutely electric i mean it was electric on my twitter timeline which is just not the same as being in of theater and then suddenly this dislike pattern interrupt happens of the because i've never seen a trailer like that right it's completely different in style so and you don't even know that this movie was being made so you're like is this what is that her that's her what's happening and then it zooms out and she's rocking the baby you see how close they were in this tiny room and like oh my god unbelievable i'll put it this way my my like k factor i've texted like fifteen people that they have to go see this movie like sean supposed to see on saturday didn't and i was like dude you gotta see it like i don't know what you're doing you gotta go see it in in new york it was when when did to come out on saturday and ticket tickets were impossible to get for the first six days or four days my favorite thing the things i thought was genius my favorite scenes the egg mixing scene i thought was so good that's like such a show not tell of an entire relationship dynamic i thought the scene talking with her dad at the beginning of that billy tries to interrupt and tries to cut that off i thought the who's on first scene the who's on first thing was just so good i can't believe we haven't talked about that yeah i that was legit you fiction genuinely doesn't understand where you think that was like a she was playing type of thing like it my again i don't know i don't know that's the thing i mean i mean on that scene i was like if someone asked what was you scene if someone anymore sam bend it like that but if if someone if someone asked me what to say i would have i also would been like i don't i understand what's happening but i don't know how to tell you what what's it's happening at first when she was explaining he's like what do you get why that's funny and she what she said i thought was possible but when he goes what's the guy's name on first and she goes i i don't know and she's like who his name is who he's like she's like i didn't get that and i'm like what i like you're that that part broke my brush just like a was she just like a smart dumb person well when when you when at that point in the movie at that point in the movie you're like oh she's just a d like she just doesn't yeah babe generously a smart dumb person or just a dumb dumb person when you when you watch that part however and you can on top of that you're like you know when he's accusing her of like you know when he's like do you see why that's misleading and she's was like no i don't and you're like okay you know i think at that point you like maybe she's just liar she's in denial when the who's on first thing happens she like are you just off so i thought that was just an unbelievable tool or mechanism to again like just introduce plant these seeds of doubt the the movie was genius because you go into the documentary expecting it to clarify and tell you what to think and instead it just weaves all these paths that you can go down and and show you how how little you know rather than knowing more coming out which is amazing it's like i mean that's the irony of the thing called you could see everything it's like there's a sentence second sentence on top of that you can see everything and still not know and it's like that's that's the mind of the whole movie is that seeing everything won't tell you what you think you what you think you'll get at of everything so i thought that was great i thought watching the dropout out was it was just again amazing the way they did it the way he's got the small laptop on a bed together with them and she's having that reaction and he's just letting it sit yeah so good i thought all the re enactment were perfect because it's like this odd skill that nathan has trained for fifteen years that was actually the perfect tool for doing a documentary about somebody who's in jail and you can't you can't show them or see them it's like you need the re enactment for it to work so i thought that was good we haven't mentioned the random dick drop in the first ten minutes of the movie who's dick the most shocking thing you're there in their house and it's this like family seen hers the kids it's awkward but you don't and then it's just billy s it was in the shower billy is and then billy in this and it just shows it just zooms up from there and you see it's billy and you're like and it's just so crazy and it's like you that's the first time you start to realize like a billy himself might be a bit of a s himself and then and then you're like wow they really you can see everything wow this actually is a level of that's awesome transparency the shocking and then he realized he's agreeing to that signing up and why would he do that what kind of psycho would agree to that obviously that has nothing to do with showing liz in a new light why would he ever agree to that and that question alone is like so damning why would he have let them do that alright i'm sold i'll go see it what what what's it of have a ten wrap up there it has to be a ten it has to be is that good i mean is there any other movie where like yeah i gotta do a movie movie debrief it's a tech the next day that alone is like the evidence you can't i it's on a different axis it's not it was not the most inner not the most entertaining or most enjoyable thing to watch it's not the most satisfying movie but it's an astonishing movie it's astonishing how do you do this in secrecy because he's been doing stuff leading up to this like i see him like he was like a fringe guy like i've i've seen just like a a handful of like viral clip and it seems like he's been doing stuff so but a very tight circle because one of the problems was if people knew what he was doing or what he was talking about it would have kinda spoiled the movie so he had to keep it very rich hey they said like maybe like you know thirty people knew about the film altogether it like it was like a very tight story yeah one one thing that's crazy is brian johnson did a q and a right afterwards supposedly in la with with billy and i'm trying to i idea a bunch of people to try and call them and ask what he said afterwards because it's off the record but brian johnson did a billy q and a on friday dude why would billy do a q and a r after for the a documentary where this shown as dick and then make him look good you need to understand billy while my wife's in the know i did it the man that billy billy is not you and you're not billy he's like you hard to understand and give me the final verdict on your belief that elizabeth holmes was a knowing was knowing committing fraud like like con like she was in on it there's there's too much evidence that she knew i think she maybe she didn't know everything but she definitely was comp and was a part of some of it she definitely knew she knew or she did it to she definitely did it okay if she did it and she knew and maybe she didn't do all of but she was in the loop and and was on board with all of that then if that's true then what do you make of how she acted in the movie i think she didn't believe it was fraud i think she it was fraud but she did interpret it that way and the way she would the way she did it to hit the big mission or like to solve the problem but and she did because she was trying to solve this big problem she didn't view it as fraud she viewed it as doing whatever it took to ultimately get there the means justified the eggs yes that's how i think she totally self that story it wasn't it's kind of like the line between the line between crime and hustle is thinner than people think in the startup up world yeah and she told herself that what she was doing was hustle and that's what it was gonna take to build this generational company and not fraud i i'm with you on that i think that she knew what was going on meaning she wasn't out of the loop but it wasn't being done behind her back by other people she knew what was going on and was comp in it she didn't see it as fraud or illegal or harming anybody she saw it as being determined strong will they could till you make it you know find a way to keep keep the thing going because you're going to you know succeed and change the world for better when you do it that's my that's my belief about her after watching this and and hearing about her before that but but it was for she just didn't think of it in that context correct in my opinion alright well thanks boys i wanted a spoiler i got a spoiler and i'm still gonna go see it now alright agree that's it that's a bot i feel like got rude to wear i know why i could be what i want to from at all in it like a days off on a go less travel never looking back alright let's take a quick break i wanna tell you about marketing school it is a podcast that is part of the hubspot podcast network and it is run by neil patel and eric sue and these guys are both marketers who are running businesses and so if you want real world tactics from practitioners who are actually out there in the field doing it this is the podcast for you check it out wherever you get your podcast