Writing Your Way to Millions with Neville Medhora

whatever it was it was like the idea to event was six weeks and i made forty thousand dollars in profit or something like that and i didn't spend a cent to on marketing and it was all through these sales emails that i was sending people i feel like i could rude where i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a days off on a road less travel never looking back so right now in the podcast we have neville i've known neville for ten years now maybe eight eight years now i was a i don't know if you know the story ben i was a fan of neville so i read his blog and i was twenty two at the time and he wrote about copywriting and i was like man copywriting is amazing i gotta meet this guy and at the time he was charging for what he called the it was called a consult like a like an hour long consultation and i didn't have any money i couldn't i can afford it but i bought his course and i was like i gotta get to know this guy more so i i go hey i'm hosting an event in san francisco do you wanna speak there i'll arrange all combinations and travel and he goes yeah i'm in and so i bought him a ticket on southwest for like two fifty bucks and his accommodation was i just little sleep in my bed and i just slept on the couch and the event i think the event wasn't the event like just like thirty peoples you originally had like a book club that was the first thing so you're also like when you got there like would you also wanna speak at a book club and i was like well okay fine and then you also did like boot bootstrap live is that what it was called yeah and i made three thousand dollars hosting that event and so it was all good i i you made me money and i paid for your flight but yeah you just stayed at my house that was a little bit of a fast one it was as i remember i was sleeping at you're you're like accommodations are usually like a hotel suite or something it was like your couch with an eighty five pound pit it was was my combination wait still you cool and we're still for instance this day so yeah so neville was the best man of my wedding so we're close he also him and i now lived two doors away from each other and neville has this thing called copywriting course so it was copywriting course with two k's copywriting course with each k now it's copywriting course two c's normal spelling and he's basically had this course on today is all about copywriting is all basically i'm getting that but he launched a course like fifteen years ago and basically the same videos that he recorded for this course like fifteen years ago is how he's been making a living course for over a decade which i think two thousand eleven so i was working closely with our our buddy noah k he was building app like off my couch and we were launching courses through apps and this is like two thousand ten two thousand eleven when courses were like a new concept it was like kinda cool to luis course and one of them that hit really well was about copywriting because we were sending out to all the the apps email newsletter subscribers which is hundreds of thousands at the time we're sending out all these really funny newsletters that also sold so people would always asked the same question they go i know you're trying to sell me something so why do i keep reading the whole damn email and i was like bill it's because of copywriting and and i'd been like studying it for a while so it seemed obvious to me but everyone's like what is copywriting how do i do copywriting how do i implement that on my own and so i was like well let's make a course so i could replicate myself and sell that and we released that on app sumo two thousand eleven twelve something like that and it just like it was one of those things that just like struck gold it just hit and i was like oh maybe there's something there and over time you're right that's kinda what i'm known for and that is probably my primary income to this day yeah and you live like a pretty fancy life you own a nice house you you buy nice shit you don't work that much so like it it's been a good business and now and then so basically a lot of people now know me as the copywriting person or you're ready a copy not the but a copywriting person you're good you're good oh i'm okay and i learned it from you and then sean a little bit absorbed it for me now he's really good and so anyway i we wanted to do a whole episode on copywriting but yeah do we wanna start with copywriting ben or do we wanna talk about the moving next door thing because that's kind of interesting too well we're already on the copywriting thing like let's keep going on i'm curious neville like you talked about like we kinda started to get into sam origin story with you but where is like your entry point into copywriting where where did you learn all this they're easy so so when i was in college it actually when i was in high school so this is a while ago e commerce was coming up and i started a commerce business called house of rave dot com i don't even know if it still exists and it was a rave company i saw light up and glow stuff online i was like a middleman man was like what we nowadays is called drop shipping back then it was kind of like a cool new idea and so i started that and i realized i had all these people on the email list there's like eight thousand people that had subscribed and opted into the email list and i never sent them anything and i used to go to all these marketing meetups and there's was kinda like some of these scam me marketers were always like you just send out emails the money is in the email all that kind of stuff so i started sending out an email newsletter that i thought you're supposed to send it's like here is my products big buy buttons all that kind of stuff and i was spending eighty bucks a month on to email service however i was making about forty bucks per email so was going net negative every time i sent an email and i spent all his time like photograph products writing descriptions all that kind of stuff so then one of my friends ryan he was just like you should study copywriting i was like like like the lost stuff he's like no no like copywriting like marketing and he put me on to who sam also knows gary hal so i read the gary hal letters are called the bo letters chapters one through twenty six i printed them out and i read them and the the key is actually printing them out because he wrote them from jail and they're they're meant to be actually read out so he wrote these letters to his son from jail trying to teach him everything he knows like in case something happened to him and from there every day until six in the morning i was up reading these stupid letters not stupid they're awesome and and i was so happy and sad at the same time happy that i had found this stuff and sad that i had not found it earlier and from there i went down this whole copywriting rabbit hole studying joseph sugar j abraham all these like legendary copywriter some scam me some not but i started applying that to house of rave emails and the first email i did i had the highest revenue day i ever had in house of rave history and i was like that could either be a fluke so let me try it again and it did it again and again and almost overnight house of rave turned into more of an email marketing company than a company making just random sales off of seo and that's how i got started i was like oh there's something to this and then you like created the course and and it became a thing but like you were kind of the first person that i'd really read about about copy running stuff what when did it finally click where you're like this is writing as the way to go and and words actually matter well i've always written online i had a personal blog called ne blog dot com that i started in god knows when i think i was like writing in an html so long ago and and it was on like blogger dot com and i remember thinking i like doing this for free this is before i was ever making money with with a blog i i just thought it was like a fun thing to do and it seemed almost comic to me like hilarious that i could write things and people would end up paying money for that because there's was something i did for free all already so i was just like i already liked doing this i'm probably gonna keep doing it no matter what and i write things and then people end up buying because i convinced them that was that was like there it was like oh there's something here and the cool thing is once you write it once you could digitally distribute it forever there's there's no limit to it it's free to distribute to a billion people if you want so i know that was something interesting it's a superpower when i started the hustle it was basic my idea was basically like we should do news but i'm gonna steal a bunch of tactics so i bought neville course and that's why how i got into copywriting i was like i'm gonna steal a lot of these ideas and basically make like mix kinda journalism with this like it's not copywriting because i'm not selling but it is copywriting because i'm trying to convince people to read it and i was like i'm just gonna make the hustle like a copywriting thing like it's journalism with copywriting and it worked and i remember when i now it's become more popular but when i launched the hustle and started of working on the conferences that you also spoke at i think i got ten thousand people to sign up for my email list which was basically just me writing about the speakers to for the conference i got ten thousand people to sign up in like six weeks and everyone was like dude you're writing so good and i'm like i'm like it's okay but you don't know that i'm just stealing from like i'm like i i didn't make this up i'm just just stealing ideas from people we all learn standing on shoulders of giant stuff like that i remember the the hustle you you were throwing hustle con you were throwing a conference you're making a conference company and you quickly realize wait just setting up the emails was better than the conference and that's how the hustle started it seemed and it said i remember like the hustle is like a tech bro read the news and then reg it reg hit it to you that's kinda what it reminded me of which i i still think it kind of is it is not text pro most of our early employees actually were women so the first writers we kinda a lot of people don't know this were all women so basically it was at one point i was the only man who worked at the hustle when we had like seven employees a lot of people don't know that and they would call us bro and i'm like i'm like first of all that's not really an insult because but you're trying to meet it like an insult i don't think that's an insult but second of all it's not exactly true it's women writing this thing but a little you never really looked at it yeah never looked at it as like like a male female thing i think they're like we're all just tech bros it's almost like a term to me and you steals your fate a little bit when you named it the hustle like people are just gonna think of you a certain way a little bit yeah a little bit and i knew it was a bad name but like neville is actually makes the worst naming name stuff so but and so i kinda stole a little bit of that one time we used to host these things called content school and we would basically say like we're gonna be in san francisco for one day you can come and hang out with us and we'll teach you about copywriting i think we would charge two thousand dollars or one thousand dollars yeah so like fifteen hundred or twenty five hundred i forget and we would get a lot of people coming and we would split the money and it was called content school and if you go to the website it's basically just a website with like stick figures writing on a whiteboard and then just like two thousand words of copy explaining about the event so anyway my point is is like all of both all both of our stuff has always been named really badly it's also simply well us funny so originally it was called copywriting course with two k's and the reason was one i couldn't get the domain but but two like i always thought copywriting in the cup with just spelled copy meant text meant to only text and look if it's like the year seventeen hundred i get it text like the hot technology of the day but now it's just like so easy to make videos and podcast podcasts and audio video and maybe the future vr experiences to me copywriting is kind of getting information from my brain to your brain or my brain to a million brains so whatever the most effective way of doing that is i'm down for it whether it's writing whether it's in an image whether it's a video with its podcast who do you think for most of people listening are like startup up nerds what is the most common mistake you think that people make and who do you think is a good example of someone who's just crushing the game whether it's a company or a human writing formally i think is the most common mistake you make because in english class they tell you to write dear serves to whom it may concern and i think that's fine if you're writing a letter you know nine hundred years ago but nowadays like people want quick concise and we don't need all that formality so i think writing like you speak is the main thing and a lot of people they sit down at a keyboard and to get paralyzed they're gonna go back to english class and they're like okay i get brownie points for using bigger words in fact using smaller shorter easier words is probably better so getting to the point very quick it's probably better i bet all of you ben in ben in of sam all it's a sarah in your box for some reason i'm using sarah's computer it it actually it's actually i bet you've get more responses with cold emails sound like a one line thing you're like hey you wanna be on the pod it's probably better than like a whole page asking someone to do something so i think writing formally is the biggest mistake that everyone makes in fact just writing like you talk if you just write a note into your iphone you what would that if you transcribe that that'll i'll often do better than sitting down and try to word smith something really carefully and who do you think is like killing it that i should honestly you you know what what's funny i actually like software companies and here's the reason they actually don't need a lot of coffee with software you could just show your product in action if you're crunch base if you just show someone looking up a company it shows up all their information you're like oh that they didn't even say what that was i just watched what happened right or i like the company aa ahrefs they just show demos of how like a gift of how their product works you type in a keyword it shows the keyword difficulty you're like oh i get it like that i think that's actually a very fast way of instill information so i think a lot of software companies do a damn good job at explaining their product just because they could show it they don't have one sometimes times why do you think so you've been doing the same copy running you've been selling the same product for years and it's been fruitful similar it's obviously changed over the years but yeah similar concept that's for the same yeah but why do you think that like i always joke i think i've said this on the pod ben that doubles the most emotionally stable person i've ever met and you why haven't you ever expanded to like way beyond that whereas you you're very content doing the same thing over and over again which is to how you actually attain like true mastery but why have you not done what most people would do which is like risk it in order to like risk what you have for shit you don't need it is that the phrase but you're like kinda going bigger or going wider or something like that and expanding and risking what you have interesting question we've talked about this before i've talked about it a lot of friends one i think i grew up in a very loving household and i had a really good up up upbringing i i think i'm like maybe top five percent top one percent of like lucky in that sense and so the dry generally what happens with people who are like ultra ultra ultra successful is they tend to have a chip on their shoulder and as much as i like wish i had that i'm kinda glad i didn't and i just have to admit to myself like i'm not going to be the richest person on the plant i'm not gonna work that hard and so i am friends with people like you who are in ever content right or one of my other best friends know okay again it's just like there's always like this like element of like just never ever ever content and i think that pushes me a little bit more but also i think i leave a lead a pretty good life like over the years i've been able to buy whatever i want do whatever i want i think the only time i've ever actually felt like i couldn't afford something is when i was buying a house i was like oh money matters over here and i don't have money to buy any house at i once on the planet i actually have to like consider a budget for the first time that was like the only thing like in a long time i felt like i couldn't afford and so i think i done this pretty well yeah so listen to this one time so like for years i've been like neville year or so like stable and healthy and one time about a year and a half ago a year ago hidden neville and my wife sarah are are obviously good buddies too and neville was like yeah i'm like searching for a house and like the things that i want sometimes cost like many many many millions of dollars and my budget is like let's hypothetically say one point five million dollars and it's the first time in my whole life where i've wanted to maybe i wanna purchase something and i actually have to think about where the money's is gonna come from or i have to think about financing and it's keeping up me up at night and i've realized and then and he goes keep me up at night and and ce goes well that's pretty normal and he goes wait is this stress is that way goes is that when people say they're stressed out is this that feeling i've never had that before and it was hilarious he goes i've never experienced this feeling where i'm staying up at night like thinking about something not knowing how the how it's gonna end and it's worrying me i i mean i i i don't yeah that's a that's true when people explain like depression stuff to me i have to like look up academic things to like like what is happening because i don't i don't get it i just don't get it so you guys met in what you're thirteen twenty thirteen twelve thirteen mh as like an outsider looking in it feels like there was like this really cool energy around copywriting around selling things online like like the whole world of like neil strauss tim ferris and and it feels like you guys are kind on the periphery of that same world and that was going on from what like two thousand nine two thousand fifteen does that sound right starting to butt around then yeah i would say we are right in the thick of it him more so than me so like what do you think has happened to that energy because it feels like there's not that same like crew of people doing the same type of stuff now but it's different so you wanna hear something funny the tim ferris thing inspired me and i had just took neville copy running course and i was like i'm i'm pretty sure i could sell anything and so i did research and i started white labeling and selling poison ivy remedies oh it's juice it i called it itch juice and neville came to my house one time and he was like i was like hey we gotta go the post office i gotta drop out today's orders and we were selling like thousands of a thousand dollars a day worth of this stuff and it was way easier at the time to like launch this stuff because bing ads were like a dime per for a click and anyway but now there's this thing called the creator economy and you've got guys like me and sean particularly sean he creates a course and he could potentially make seven figures a year selling at a course and that's actually way more i can't tell if that's way more common or if we're just now part of like the inside crowd who has big audiences i don't know what do you think neville i think it's i think it's more common because the tools are better right but before creating a course like i remember like looking up like how to make a javascript to like password protect a site it it was like it's like tech kind of stuff now i can use like circle dot s o or any of these like companies like that to to easily make courses it's very simple and so i think it's more common i think we have way more access to distributing our content than before i mean if you have a phone you could be like a gigantic star with a million things back then you had to have like a team and you yet to like have photoshop and expensive software servers you have all sorts of kind of stuff and so i think it's just like the tools are way way way better now so i think there's like ten to a hundred times more content so ben back to your question do i think it's like gone away that's spirit no i think what happened was it was concentrated in the hands of a few before right mh you had the tim ferris you kinda have like characters like that that were really really big that somehow made it past that level and then now you have tons of communities that are smaller i follow all sorts of little creator economy communities on twitter where like each person has like you know a thousand followers maybe you know and there's just getting started and they have like their own little community i think it's just fragmented to a bunch of different micro communities so i have a question tom ben hosts how to take over the world so he's like a mid stage in his kinda oh shit you didn't know that no i oh yeah we'll stars struck down yeah it's a like a bad ass pod but it's like still it's getting big but it's still like on the up so like he's still like in the middle of his journey a little bit and how many downloads a month do you have been like a hundred a hundred k downloads i don't know my my top episodes just crossed forty thousand downloads i so like it's like doing really good and neville your thing has been doing pretty good very good for years how do you think it's gonna look like when you're like sixty five years old and getting ready to retire if you're because like your mom worked at a and at a oil company and she's got probably a a very healthy comfortable pension a lot of my mom a teacher she probably has a pension close to six figures but you're not gonna have that that's not gonna have that necessarily if he is let's just assume that he is doing this for another forty years how do you think that you're gonna live when you're sixty five or seventy first you can make your own pension if you have a company you can make your own pension so i have started that process already and i plan to live off what's not a pension so kinda like oh whole like fire movement all those things there's different ways that you can expect to live comfortably also i did another thing that i thought was a little unique i plan to die at eighty five and if i'm not dead naturally i'll well you know make it happen to put it lightly and so i always i planned this back when i was in went high school like that's why i came up with that date so november seventeen two thousand sixty seven i'm done and so i have to plan my life backwards till then and i planned out a couple different milestones and i actually said so not sixty five i said the end of my competitive competitive work life is going to be fifty now i i know a lot of people are way more competitive at fifty but i just planned it that way as a contingency like let's say the world accelerates technologically very very quickly beyond what i can keep up with or what i care to keep up with i need to move when i'm fifty into an industry that's slower such as something such as real estate like owning a bunch of houses and renting them out something that's kind of like full proof like that but i say my competitive advantage will go away when i'm fifty is what i had said why i need die at eighty five what that that there's a there's a world where when we're eighty five it's not there's it's more like a sixty five like a like a today sixty five that's true but you gotta plan for what's going on today not tomorrow i mean i know what the thing is going to be when i'm eighty five this forty years away right so i have no idea but i did plan based on actuarial documents so my likely death date is going to be when i'm around seventy eight so male born when i'm born all that kind of stuff i'm gonna probably die when i'm seventy eight by the stats so eighty five is actually like seven extra bonus years then also when i was in high school i wanted to be a doctor so we had this awesome program we've got shadow ten different doctors i shadow three different ge doctors and several individual awards and that's when i saw just people that were like i this sad but it's kinda like they're just like sacks of cells that still existed but they weren't actually they're they're same people they were their brains were mush and i remember thinking like damn that's really hard on the them it's also really hard on their families and like we'd watch like you know a daughter of one of these people come in and the the dad doesn't recognize her she's crying the kids are crying it was like a whole mess and i was like i would never wanna do that to my family or anyone else my family like if they if i get to that point i'm done like neville the chapter of neville is gone and so everyone dies and everything that's lived has died and even if you lived to two hundred you will die and so i thought well would it be nice at least planet i've also seen a lot of families get torn apart when the the main paycheck of the family dies and they have to divide assets and the kids start fighting over stuff like i want and i went that i've seen it ripped the family apart now i was like you know you be cool on your deathbed that you're just like alright here's what you all get here's what it is i signed off of it i'm in good health a good sound and then you take off that's what i want but you don't have to die in order to do that there's a great book called them die with zero and it's the the whole premise is actually really interesting it's like basically let's just say that you have a little bit of money and you're gonna donate it it's like well maybe you should donate it now while you're still alive so you can actually see the fruits your labor or if you have a if you're if you're gonna give away money to your kids it's like hey have you thought about giving it to the money given them the money while you're alive so like you guys can take a vacation together or and they my bigger house you're able to go spend time there and so you can die with zero are you what back i think one of the reasons people don't do that though is the estate tax versus gift tax like i think you get hit super hard if you gift it while you're still but who gives us shit yeah you know what saying here it with a lot of money do well i i know they do but i think it's nonsense said i was talking to my father law and he was telling me how he wants to give his daughters my wife money when he died he's like or you know they're just talking about like inheritance or wheels and things like that and i was like hey i know this sounds weird because technically like you know like what i what you give to her is gonna be mine too so it sounds like i'm asking for it but i i just want let you know like i i'm not but have you thought about giving it to giving us whatever you wanna give now so we can all like i was like i was like we could like spend it together and enjoy or don't give it to us at all and just go it by yourself some really nice stuff and we could all have fun together with it but like maybe we should do it we could we can en joint together as opposed to you know like when you died i was like do remember what it was like before you were born and he was like no i was like well that's probably what it's gonna be like when you died so like who cares like you know what you left anyway that's my opinion i think that's a good point yeah okay i i remember i wrote a short book about this that i really promoted because it's not like a a philosophy i wanna like actively jam down people's throats i just thought it was healthy for me is that knowing when i'm gonna die makes me live happier so if you know you're gonna die and someone's like hey neville i wanna give you the awesome opportunity but you have to live in like a bump fuck wherever and it's not gonna be ideal but it'll just be for five years knowing that i'm gonna die that those lot those minutes and times and the years are gonna be very precious to me i'm gonna be like no i'm not gonna do it like i just i'm not because that's not how i wanna live and so i know i had this like finite amount of time and eighty five is the date i've chosen and now people are like well what if there's better technology well i'll consider then this it's not like a bomb planted in my head that's gonna go off on a eighty five it's like it's just it's just a a thought process of like okay this is the end of my days what do i wanna do before then and then i don't think people take this into account we i've had a lot of experience with old people through some of the the work experience i've had and then also going to india a lot and seeing it and what happens is after a certain age you start declining and your physical health and at the moment that still seems going to be the case for a long time and so you if you wanna climb mount k jar you know after your seventy it's going to be very difficult so you may as well do it when you're younger and capable of it and also as you get older and older you have a lot more responsibilities so if you wanna do some dumb shit and get it out of your system you better do it when you're young and healthy and have no responsibilities and so i i was kinda like planning life backwards like that it's like we're inevitably gonna die like why wouldn't don't you plan for it right and so i feel like in the west it's a very like taboo weird subject to even bring up and in most of the eastern countries i think like death is a little bit more of a like a septic part of life and so i kinda like thinking like oh i'm gonna diet at eighty five it makes me happier knowing that and also it's kinda of like jerry seinfeld had this great quote he was just like every good comedian knows like this weird moment where the audience once you want stage longer but you know you have to get off right now it's time it's time to walk off stage now i thought like eighty five i'm walking off stage nothing that's how i think i still haven't like changed my mind from that date yet do you think so something that's interesting about you is that you do these roast that i cannot stand so ben they like so they like neville will like throw a party called the roast party and he gets in front of like sometimes like fifty people and has these like elaborate roast like and sometimes they're just like silly funny jokes like for example like like like well you know david found his first gray pub unfortunately it was on his big mac yeah like look like they're like great jokes they're very creative jeff ross yeah sorry yeah well he said a bunch and you have way more of that aren't exactly i don't even wanna say on here but yeah and they're but they're very very creative and your writing is incredibly creative even if sometimes it's crude it's very creative do you think that you can make people more creative or you you just got it or you don't i think people are like curious or not also it's it's like what you like doing i will spend it like so it'll be like sam's birthday or bachelor party i'll spend like a month writing a roast i'll have like a file and i'll sit i'll i'll think of a funny joke or i'll hear a funny joke on a podcast i could adapt with sam's name in it and i'll write it down it and i'll sit there just like laughing on my phone to myself like no one's around it's just it's just me laughing i have a legitimately fun time doing it because it it's very hard like if i didn't like doing this it would be so much work for like what's ends up being a two or three minute speech right but it's just fun to do it and i think it's just like the thing i like to do and it keeps me creative it keeps me sharp it keeps me writing and key i think comedy is a is a pretty high level form of thinking like you never meet someone who's super dumb that's really funny unless it's like they're they're not they don't mean to be funny right yeah but like what i mean are smart people you've had tens of thousands of people come to you and and you've taught them how to write better particularly in the form of copywriting routing but it's rooted in like creativity a little bit do you actually think that some of these people you just couldn't make better because i because i think that some people i can't make i cannot make them a good i can't even make them good maybe i i can help them improve i can't make them good i think you cannot improve someone's like physical capacity for thinking like their iq level will not ever be raised beyond the age of like twenty however i think you could technically make them better so someone writing a really long email if you tell them what if you just put things in bullet points what if each bullet point can only be ten words long you can actually make them better yeah absolutely but there's there's like a certain level of technicalities you can make them better but then a certain level of like high level thinking that's difficult to and instill in people but you can give them frameworks to think there's all sorts of little tricks you can make so better yeah just like i think that there's all this sat prep like you can take the sat and get a low score then take a prep course and become better because they're teaching you tactics and things like that so yeah you can make someone better to a degree do you find do you speak better this like copywriting help people hell yeah in like in like verbal like on on a podcast format stuff like that i think so i mean it's it's kinda like no surprise that sam is a really like what i would consider get a copyright even though you don't like take contract copywriting work but you also have like a super popular podcast right like that's kinda no surprise yeah i think people who are good copywriter tend to just be could communicators is another way to put it so i think communicate for the medium the the thing about copywriting that i try to get into people's head i'm like it's kind of a bad name because you're thinking that it just means like literally the written word and it's not actually that a copywriter every person in business should learn copywriting because what copywriting really is is figuring out what motivates the person who's the your ideal customer your ideal target and how do you use words or ideas so that could be images videos music anything how do you use some type of communication tool to manipulate them what sounds negative but it's the right word manipulate them to do or feel how you want them to act or feel so that could be like martin luther king who wants to convince people in a speech that racism is wrong it could be me selling a course or getting you asking you to sign up or pay for something it could be me trying to convince you that one thing is evil and one thing is good and i can use words i can use a picture i can use anything because when you when you copyright copyright it forces you to figure out what people want communicate it effectively and how to structure your ideas that's where it is and to which specific audience you're talking to if you're talking to high end programmers that are cto and all know javascript you could explain it in one way if you're talking to a ceo who has no idea about tech stuff you have to explain it another way and the copywriter will know which way to explain it and i've seen pages and let's talk about this neville because you actually know more internet aren't marketing stuff and i am and a fears a alone than me so you've seen some more shit have you well i mean sure i've been able like i've been able to make money just by writing copy basically like in a google doc and putting that out there and like if your words are good enough just in a google doc i people will send me money for whatever service i'm promising have you what's an example of a website that you found that is literally just a wall of text that's so good but it makes a shockingly large amount of money i think base camp used to be a really good one back in the day that we would point to where it was just mainly just explaining what it did with a couple of pictures and i thought that was pretty awesome now you don't you can use pictures you can use videos i think videos has become a lot more prevalent and i think is extremely powerful because that's how we understand stuff with our eyes and ears at the same time but just a wall of text who i don't know anyone still wall text oh there are and i know of few so there's this company called years ago ben do you remember a thing called double your dating oh that guy i heard him okay so if you are above the age of thirty you probably will know what this is so double your dating i'm i'm going all off memory w dating was a around probably in year two thousand one to two thousand and eight maybe and i was like fourteen at the time and it was basically this ebook i think he sold more stuff but it was an ebook for twenty nine dollars and it was just how to talk to girls and like every boy who's fourteen years old like you're gonna buy it because you're uncomfortable and you wanna meet girls whatever and his website was just you'd sign up and over the course of a week he would send you a series of emails that were literally five to ten thousand words all it was was a text based email and it made tens of millions of dollars selling this thirty or forty dollar ebook and then the guy who ran it his name is now his name really name is edmund pagan his pseudo name at the time was called david dean and my friend named craig cl worked for him helped writing in this craig has a company called golden hip which owns like eight or nine different brands and they sell like probiotics or one of them called like doctor steven gun have you guys heard of that it's like a famous doctor and you like partnered with them and they sell probiotics to like women anyway craig took the double your dating root like kinda like ideas and now he sells literally a billion dollars a year of products and it's like a probiotic it's vitamins and i don't know what their other brands are and it's just one long sales page and at the bottom they're selling a thirty nine dollar probiotic and that's something today that still exists if you go to i remember w dating was good yeah i will i will say though i think that is from a by on era a little bit i'm sure there's like pages that are just strictly text but for the most part i don't see it as much because now the places that make a lot of money on dating are generally they have a youtube channel or instagram or whatever they're not just text like they used to be it used to be a big deal back then they can just write a long page of text but you don't see it quite as much because we have know where you see a vacation go to amazon dot com and type in kindle or like amazon product or echo hi you i you might have a word give if most copywriter do this you have a word counter automatically installed on your chrome yeah you could just i just highlight it and tells me yeah that's what i do go to kindle the kindle listing and tell me how many words it is it's like three or four thousand words and i cannot stand when people say well no one leads long copy and i'm like no like long copy almost will always outperform short copy you just like you you you you for some reason people think that long is not good well joseph sugar r had had a great thing he said right long copy not long winded copy that's difference so this is this is like a very there's a lot of things you need to go over with the kindle that i'm looking at on this page it's talking about the ppi the glare free you can you use water resistant all that kind of stuff so it has a lot of features so therefore it has a lot of copy but if you're selling a basic yoyo for five bucks you probably don't need a lot of copy you'd probably just make it long winded so yeah like this has a lot of cool things to write about so you can make it long copy but i don't think you should make long copy just for long copy sake in fact i would say i've seen a lot of good selling on instagram like a lot of i i run a swipe site called swipe file dot com where i keep all the good marketing that i see and one of the cool things that i've noticed is on instagram people sell through stories now and i'm like this is like the evolution of how to sell what's an example i see a lot of these like courses and stuff and some or like business courses and so i remember writing articles about how to make like a logo how to make a good logo and headline and then i see like there's like a guy named chris do the this asian dude i i follow on a on instagram and he has these great stories on how to teach you how to do that kind of stuff and i'm like this is brilliant this is like taking that long article i made and condensing it into an instagram story that's visually peeling it's fun and i can go through it in like ten seconds remember thinking wow i learned something in ten seconds that is great copywriting that is instill information of my brain very very quickly in information why haven't you done that a good question yeah i don't know well so one of one of the things i think about social that i i think you know that if you build your brand on social media like this is a direct quote from sam par it's like if you build your brand on social media it's like renting a place where the the landlord raises the rent every eighteen months doubles the rent every eighteen months and so i think what happens is whenever we write long form stuff for seo it every single day no matter if neville works or not i get more i get more and more people coming to the site whereas if i only focus on social media you get people on the site wire on that treadmill but it falls off very quickly and i'm not very consistent with social media so it's not something i think i would like win in necessarily i could build a system around it yeah so neville you talked about that first sales email for your for your rave website i'm curious for both of you for you sam like do you have an equivalent like where the light bulb went on where you were like oh like this works like i can get people to do stuff with my on the and on the neville also for you after it's was like was that that for you or was there another moment that where that light bulb went on anymore sorry go ahead neville was at the time it happened for me it was i hosted the first hustle con i had the idea for it i think on may first and then it happened in june whatever it was it was like the idea to event was six weeks and i made forty thousand dollars in profit or something like that and i didn't spend a cent on marketing and it was all through these sales emails that i was sending people and it worked so well and my website was ugly and was like this works and then when the hustle launched we created a welcome email and welcome emails typically are like i call it the forgotten text so there's like your thank you page there's like the confirmation page when you subscribe to a website there's the welcome email after you've given someone on your website give someone your email there like there's like these these forgotten areas of people's websites and i was like let's make all of those areas incredibly funny and surprising and i bet you people will share it and it'll get us more traffic and so we did and so if you google the hustle welcome email we created this welcome email and it was like funny and people started running so many articles about it and i'm like dude this took us like four minutes to do and we kinda stole the idea from someone else it's not that original this copy running thing is awesome so that was like when it hit for me also also behind the scenes i knew you when you're were throwing hustle con you made really good cold emails to speakers because you because you knew that like if you get the whales everyone else will follow so if you get the big speakers and you made these awesome emails with gifts which like you know ten years ago was like kinda cool and yeah and you held up like the volunteers they would hold up a sign said like hey ben will you come to speak at hustle khan and it looked like you made like a custom email in reality just like photoshop their name on it yeah the same one over and over yeah yeah those there's there's different light bulb moments like that i said i had my house of rave one and then the next one was when noah aca was building app ts off my couch i started he was sending out to hit fifty thousand people on an email newsletter for apps ts at the time was kinda like a side project of his which is like you know fifty thousand email subscribers is pretty good for side project and he would send out like grasshopper dot com twenty five percent off coupon buy and i was like man that's a pretty shitty email that's that's not great so i was like let me apply some of this copywriting stuff to some of these emails and the first email we sent out was apps first ten thousand dollar profit day and noah was happy i was happy the one on font and earnest yeah you was that a read re that that that first sentence listen to spend the first sentence on that email is in the hall of fame it is can you read that read that first it was like the first three or four sentences were beautiful dream i'm gonna try to say at the top of my head this is like ten years ago but it says like if i whisper the word ga in your ear and it makes your knees weak or something like that it was basically kinda like fan about fonts which is like a more were talking yeah you were talking about having a sexual fantasy with fonts yeah it was so but look it was a different time i forget what the name of the font is but he's like let's just say it was like does if i whispered the word comic sense into your e ears does it make you weak at the knees yeah and then he was like it was basically having like a sexual fantasy about font and then it like went on for like six sentences with more things like that and then it was like well i've got good news for you you dirty dog like you know we're having a sale on all these fonts that you could purchase today it was beautiful that is such a beautiful concept i've stole that on a bunch of different wait i pulling up wait i i totally forgot this it said the first letter this first sentence is if the names luc city san uni code or courier new don't mean anything to you go ahead and close this message and then it goes on to the whole thing it quote steve jobs in there about about him talking about font types and we remember thinking like the the reason noah gave me this deal was he didn't think it was it was gonna be that big because just it was so specific for like designers who did typo and i was like you know what let's just have fun with it and that ended up being like the biggest deal so far and we're like holy shit like the only thing that was different was the copy right like this was like we took some time to write the copy and it took about an hour like it wasn't that long and so we did it again and again and again and then for like a long time i wrote every single email until we like hired enough copywriter to replacement it do you so you said it took you about an hour do you ever feel like you come to a a copywriting problem and you just never crack it you just are like man it like the light bulb never hit or you just like can you power your way through any problem i'd be curious think what you think sam sometimes sometimes like if you're not in a good mood like i i think like there's a cool time in the morning like when i wake up and drink a bunch of caffeine that like come up time like my brain starts getting a little like start like thinking a funny jokes start getting a little gi and i'm like oh this is a good time but it like if it's late at night and you have to just write something for a deadline sometimes it'll be like this is kinda boring but then every once in a while it just it just hits you like that and how do you think about it sam i think that there's like usually the way that i'm almost positive that this is universal but the way that you get good copywriting is you sit down the problem is is that most people are afraid to start but you what you really need to do is you have to sit down and you just have to write and it's and you acknowledge it sucks and then what you do is so long as you have enough time you then let it marinate so you could like go and do something and then the next day you come back to it and then that's where the really like the good shit actually happens but every once in while you could sit down and it just works so i have this thing that it's it's like that this i bring we're on the thing called copy that and i just wrote this this low t i would sitting on the toilet and i just wrote it and i have not touched it because it's perfect i'm like no this is just perfect this it this works and sometimes things like that definitely happen where you it it just is it just happens but i don't think i think it's pretty much impossible to come up against the problem that you can't solve for two reasons one that incubation phase always works and number two you can just copy other people so you go to swipe file dot com which is double site or you just like go and read old you just search like best ads of all time and you could just like read really old stuff and you're like oh sick that they were selling shirts using this big idea i'm gonna steal that for selling this other thing yeah and there's a lot of tools available for like research generation i think actually pinterest is kinda of what inspired dot com you type in like good sales letter product like dog leash sales letter you'll find a ton of stuff so you could copy the other thing that i think is cool here here's a method i use all the time and i don't if it's just unique to me if i work with other people where i think they can see my screen okay so if we're on this call i would share my screen and do work so right before this i host a thing called writing wednesdays like for our members and like certain like a certain amount of people show up and we share screens and work that's it and whenever i do that i tend to get the best work i get a lot of work done i invite sam sarah over to my place to c every once in a while at my neighbors over i people over to c all the time and what i make them do is i tell i'm like at least one person has to sit on the same side of the table of me because otherwise i'll just be on reddit or instagram just goof off but if they're looking at my screen for some reason i keep pushing forward and write good stuff sam ben tell me this have you ever been like an airplane and you're liking in the seat and there's other people next to you and you know people can see your screen bet you get some good writing right yeah for sure like there's something about other people seeing it where you're like i gotta i gotta keep powering through and i i just i can't let my brain stop and so i think that's kind of a secret weapon i have people work next to me or share my screen at work and that's when the best writing done for some reason when you think ben are you're gonna start doing some copywriting shit yeah well like i kind of already am right because i script out all my episodes so i'm writing and like i think it's pretty good but now i'm actually trying to start selling stuff because i haven't been making much money on my show and now i'm trying to make money on my show and so this is all oh that'll be the true test that'll be the true test but you know what you know what listen listen to what happened neville listen to what happened at ben ben had this guy i'm gonna kinda butcher of the story because i don't i don't know who the actual guy is but i also don't wanna reveal any information that he'd previously told me let's just say he's worth nine figures and he's an investment banker and he came to band and he's like hey can i pay you a certain retainer every month and you just be my guru where you study history and like you just make sure that i tell you what my strategy is that i'm like not repeating the airs that julius caesar has made or that i am doing what like a successful napoleon has done can you like kinda like guide that and he came to ben and i was like that's actually brilliant you should charge like two or three thousand dollars an hour and like consult and do this it's kind of a good idea is it what morgan has does with like that that firm that he's part of i don't know i there's a guy who just put out a really good blog and a large investment thing named morgan house will look it up he did a podcast about it recently talked about it i forget where and he he collaborative it collab fun i think it's called there you go that one and so they reached out to him and they're just like we're gonna pay you a bunch of money and you just write stuff and you just be you write about anything you want and and that sound reminiscent of what you're doing yeah so after that sam i don't know if i told you i got oh i i did tell you because i asked you i know the guy listens to this show was a little weird to be airing about i was asking you how much had charge and that's not weird so he said we he said will you speak and how much you charge and you're like hey how much did i charge no but it's weird because he listens to the show so he's gonna be like so now he knows that when he was like hey do you wanna come speak to my company i went what i said how much should i charge and what did i say i said ask him what's their budget yeah and he didn't help he that was that didn't work he was too smart for that he's gonna get to he like i wanna be your respectful your rates just let me know like you know what i've done in those situations by the way that's very helpful sometimes you at this debt you're at this stalemate where it's just like both people want everyone to win like i don't think this guy's trying to screw you over right i don't i don't think so you're also not trying to screw him over you both just wanna arrive at a nice junction so i would say something along the lines of this i'm like look i i i wanna i know you're trying to do good by me i'm trying to do good by you but i would also like to be happy with the amount of money my lowest that i'd be happy with is i'm just gonna make up money a thousand dollars okay but i would be like ultra ultra thrilled to work for you if i was getting forty thousand dollars a month i mean would be like my dream i would dedicate all my time i've tell everyone else i'd be so thrilled is that something that's like in the realm of possibility and then what happens is he's gonna be like well it's a lot of money maybe we can settle on twenty five thirty thousand dollars right which it you'd probably be happy with so i think those are generally the things and also being just ultra honest i found makes it happy and sometimes a lot of times are like you know what if you're gonna be that happy and wanna do really good work for me i will pay you that money that's that's the way i would approach it yeah what you now no that's that's i'm gonna i'm gonna transcribe what you just said and i'm gonna say basically exactly that it might change the figures a little bit but yeah i i see why you wanna these sky to my show sam that was that was good i wanna talk about one more thing that i think is interesting so basically i tweet about this a lot and a lot of people say this is my dream so neville and i live like two or three doors down enough that we pretty much see each other every single day because each of us will take walks and i actually think when people like that's amazing that you guys are best buddies that you live next to each i'm like yeah i think everyone should do this because it will make you happier it's kind of interesting because i'm almost positive that this is what a lot of immigrant families do when they come to america is they like move to like some type of housing complex or some type of cold d sac or something where they're with you know you're in a place that's new to you you're nervous it's more enjoyable to be around a bunch more people and you kinda like raise your kids together i think more americans who aren't immigrants just americans are born race here should do that it it it is i'm happier because we live by each other oh totally i think the key is so a lot of people there's like this new fan plan that everyone has or like let's buy a plot of land and all be neighbors so that actually doesn't work and the reason is because your neighbors that's too close you gotta have like some separation so me and sam live around the corner from each other we actually share an alley but there's some sem of privacy but also i can walk a hundred feet to his house you know like i saw you this morning just like you were like showing your dad your motorcycle over facetime or something like that and i was like hey what's up we saw you in for ten seconds and i'm like was that was a hangout that was a hangout and so i think that's the key and then also i grew up like this we had a lot of family friends in our neighborhood and it's kinda cool like if if your kids you could your parents like don't mind if you hang out with other kids they know and so you can walk over to their houses if you need to borrow cup of sugar or whatever can walk over i think it makes you immensely happy like the whole point of life is they have like a really fun good community and also whenever i go to india all the time people live in what are called colonies a lot of times it so it's essentially like a apartment complex imagine like that and you know everyone in that colony and so you have like a million people over at your house you pop into other friend's house you didn't even knock on the door and it's really fun and when you have that much stimulation fun activity going on the last thing you're asking is like what's the purpose of life am i happy data it's because you're just you're active you're happy the old people are happy the young people are happy it's really fun and then when people come over here and live in a a big house but buy themselves isolated like you get very lonely even though you have an awesome house it's like who cares like if you don't have a lot of friends around with the point do you guys see each other more off more days than you do not do you see each other majority of days yeah walk down different front of me it could be as short as it just waving in and saying three words do you have anything that you regulate like you guys don't lift together you don't run together you don't we exercise sometimes together we we kinda just sit on the porch and do nothing yeah i think like the art of the pop in is pretty fun just like popping in hanging out so one of our friends that we both know john arrow that we both really like i to see him the way me and john air would hang out is we both used to live downtown sort of near each other we'd see each other randomly on the street about once a week we chat for like fifteen minutes on a street corner and we're like alright gotta go that's it that was the hangout and it's just like it felt like we hung out even though it wasn't like a deliberate thing and in fact it almost feels more special because it's random so a lot of times i'll be oh drinking some coffee and i walk over to sam's house and just knock on the door and i come in and say hi for like five minutes and that's it or it's like hey we bought like this happens it feels like a a nice amount is i have a bunch of food that's gonna go bad in a couple days i gotta i gotta make a ton it just wanna come over yeah like that or you know what you know what sam you know what sam does i have like all these alarm sensors all over my house and so someone opens my back gate which no one ever opens my back gate there's an alarm that goes off my house it goes back gate opened and sam will open that and then he'll he'll wait like five seconds we run out the door and i'm and he's like hey oh like sam cool yeah that's open like i know it's sam if the back gates open do the mormons through that ben i thought you guys all like you guys have a pretty good community yeah it's interesting we do but not in a like living near to each other sort of way like we just you know have activities that we get together at the church and we see each other at least you know a couple times a week but yeah i this is something neville for background i've been thinking a lot about of like i am one of those i a lot of people are rethinking this right now of pandemic a lot of people have gone remote and they're like if i could live anywhere near anyone why do i not live near my family and friends like why do i not live near the people i wanna spend time with and so you know all the boys are scheming all the boys are like how do we move into a compound together that we can see each other everyone says compound it doesn't you don't want compound it's not a separate yeah you don't want shared resources i think you want like same block yeah i would find it very awkward if we were actual neighbors like if me and sam were actual neighbors it would be like i think it'd be too much i think it'd be a lot and there would be some conflict it's like dude what the fuck why don't you like why are you being messy like this or why why is this thing overgrown yeah for you wanna people over and like that you're like oh they're having people over but not like i feel i feel like if it's too weird it's too much like you get there has to be some separation so i think like the compound idea never really works and never it gets off the ground because you literally your compound you don't wanna look out the the window in your neighbors right there that's that's a lot well i think the reason that people go immediately to compound is that like the logistics seem easier honestly of just like okay blank slate will build houses next to each other than the like alright let's hope the serendipity deputy lines that's way not easier yeah and also by the way and a lot of other cultures like in indian culture a lot of times very rich families what they'll do is they'll build gigantic houses in each they have separate entrances for each floor and the kids like one son will live on the second floor another son will live on the third floor with his family and the parents load the first word that that's pretty common where all live together in a big house and they have like some sem of privacy but also not so and it it's kind of fun but that is the that that is the compound right there though that is a comp it's like it's ideal i wanna it's it's it is your family and it is you they're are kind of up in your stuff but i think the ideal is in the same neighborhood like around the corner like where you're you wouldn't mind your kid just walk into the other person's house by themselves that that would be ideal yeah i think it's the most fun it's getting know your neighbors having that strong sense community i think also there's like a security aspect that's kinda cool oh sam sam wasn't getting back in time for his motorcycle to be delivered so he just had it delivered to my house so yeah like the just convenience factors like that are pretty cool and then also like whenever i show people my house as a tour i bring them to sam's house as part of the tour like it's like part of the it's like an extension of the tour it's fun have and i actually think it's helped you meet more girls because you you have if there's like a girl who you're trying to see and you're trying to op impress her and she sees that there's just like action happening in the neighborhood it's like oh this is exciting this is fun to be around well thanks for blowing my my secrets but yeah you it is fun when people come by like you want like know what comes by i remember the other day you and sarah stop by in your car and you're just stopping chatting in front of me and then noah came buying in a different car just totally random and we're all three like talking to each other i was just like that's a pretty cool moment that was a fun moment yeah have you guys had any moments of conflict sorry i i'm not gonna to be your therapist right now but like has there been anything not really so we both we we knocked last night he was on a date and i and i didn't wanna ruin it and so i had to make sure that he hits with the call before before i came over it's all like google because because neville single it's be like hey are you with anyone or are you alone like are you dating anyone like you know are you seeing someone can i can i come over so sometimes i do that i'm married we don't i don't have that issue no i mean i i think we also knew each other pretty well and we're i think we're by if there's ever any issue we bring it up right away and so i don't think we have like lingering issues with each other so no i don't think we've had any conflicts about it yet it's been about a year right no it's been a year and a half yeah yeah you're right a year and eventually and i think if sara sara eventually have kids they'll probably end up moving to new york or something probably and even actually like it makes me sad to even think about that i told her i was like dude don't i'm like this is kinda perfect because i don't love austin i like austin but the reason the only reason i would stays because like because of the convenience with you and also a couple of other friends and now that we're all in the mode we're all we're all having kids at the same time too i'm like man is sick which should it's all ben did you raise your kids with anyone else like did you like did like a close friends how you have kids within one year yes is that awesome yes so for us it was two doors down this other mormon family called the ko and it was like literally just like it's not racist that's just but they're all horrible say anything anyway and anyways it's just like all you know the kids were all at the same ages and we just ran back and forth and who knew where dinner was gonna be for everyone that night and it was great by the way you know my working backwards from eighty five plan and sam you could bat me up on this i've been saying for years i wanted a i wanted to have kids around twenty twenty three that's what i'm forty that's when i wanna have kids so i started telling all my friends like five years ago i'm like twenty twenty three let's all have kids because i grew up with like a pack of kids like a pack of friends almost my exact age within one or two years and it was awesome like it was really fun we're all still best friends to this day like that'll never change and i think it was great and i i would love for my kids to have that and also i think as a parent it's much better ben you could probably a test if your kids wanna go play you could be like yeah go play at the ko right like you can go play over there and you don't have to worry about it it's kind of better for the parents and the and the kids get to have like a whole pack of bennett friends which is awesome so i've been telling everyone twenty twenty three that's the date everyone had pop out some kids around then alright this episode went all over the place what do you think better are people gonna like this i hope so they're definitely gonna like copy that all stuff is just like our bread and butter but i hope people like the the living next your neighbor's stuff too so sean's is not here so he would inevitably should would promote his thing so i'm actually gonna promote it it's called power writing so sean has a writing thing it's not the same as copywriting but it's like kinda like for twitter writing and cold emailing and then neville so google power writing it's on m dot com and then neville has copywriting course spelled with cs exactly how i'm saying it at copywriting course dot com where do they go to buy the thing though because you used to have copywriting course dot com slash steel what does join slash join so copy chorus dot com slash join and it's a monthly subscription now and you get the course but also the community right yeah monthly yearly the community is like the real thing that you actually have think all copy reviewer tool you post a copy whether it's a sales page called email twitter post anything and like professional writers including myself go in there and like redo it for you and so it's easier to yeah and you also tell people what how i didn't i've never seen this march two thousand twenty two had twelve hundred post two thousand likes two hundred and twelve thousand words written in the community that's a whole other story but we moved away fully from wordpress which i love but we moved fully to like forum software because i'm convinced that like this is where all the sites are gonna go in like two years they're all gonna try to make their own little social network for their own community but not on anyone else's platform so that's what we did we just switched over this week and it's pretty awesome what's the conversion rate of copy questions dot com slash join because it's just like it's like four thousand words it's pretty it super depends on whenever we do email promotions so on a normal type i don't know think maybe one to two percent on just like normal days but then whenever we do promotions it's much higher yeah so what just on a note i'll just from traffic coming to the website and people clicking onto to slash joined do you know what the conversion rate is i don't know the exact conversion rate there certain times like beginnings of quarters it's good end of the year beginning of the year is really good almost like gyms like seasonal and then through the summer is more like s months where you have like actively promote and then at the end of the year we just crushed like q four is just is just easy yeah this page oh hey i'm on the i'm on the page you're on page sick well copy voice dot com slash join do we all operating courses copywriting my copy that power writing so art no copy that which is my thing copy that dot com that's not a copywriting course such just a set of drills to keep sharp your thing actually teaches you how to write persuasive copy sean's thing is like it's called he called it power writing copy and it's you can use it for twitter and cold emailing so i actually think that your thing is like covers all of it and then me and sean's thing are very specific subsets of that right yeah i think so i think i mean it people always asked me to they're like is it competitive if someone else has another copywriting course and i was like i don't know it kind of expands the pie in my opinion like i've noticed like you remember dan lok joe talk about that guy it's kinda you don't like that guy that boys he's kind of a little bit in the scam range like a tyler totally fucking scam well well here's here's the funny thing here's why i love and hate him one he would talk he would talk have these youtube videos that are very popular very well done they would say you should become a copywriter it'll be a millionaire overnight it was just like kind of lies in my opinion but the point is it kind drum up interesting in copywriting in a way and i remember a lot of people coming from his stuff to ours it was it was fifty fifty some people were realistic about it and some people were like well i'm ready to start earning six figures tomorrow how do start doing it and we're like oh god you came from dan right so in a way it kind of expands the pie whenever other people talk about it it becomes more popular thing and i promote your yours in mind oh course out yeah alright cool ben hopefully this turns out well neville thank you oh and ben copy writing courses coming out next month the called how to take a little copywriting there we go yeah right copy like the napoleon and julius caesar no what's your that'd be pretty good how to write strong memos like no like your napoleon bonaparte apart neville what's your twitter ne med e m e d ne med awesome thank you sam thank ben yeah i feel like i could rule world to i know i could be what i want to from at all in it like a days off on a goal less travel never looking back