WHOOP Founder Will Ahmed: How I Built A $3.6 BILLION Company

how big the business now i you guys have raised what like four hundred million dollars you know we've raised four hundred million we we blast raised capital a three point six billion dollar valuation i think there's still you know a lot of potential for health monitoring i think you fast for ten years i think a large percentage of the world's population will be wearing a continuous health monitor and it'll hook into everything that you do as it relates to the health care system and doctors and and so yeah i'm very bullish shot on the opportunity in this space do you do you know what you're getting into or what i've read the briefing and i'm a big fan of the podcast so ready for you alright so like the the pod it's called my first million it's kinda known for sean and i had both started a handful of companies and sold a few of them and people like the pod because we brainstorm and we dive deep on different companies and we do like business breakdowns things like that so but we'll spend a little bit of time kinda get to know you because you've done a lot of amazing things well i know of one huge amazing thing that you've done but i bet you there's a lot more amazing things that you've done but we'll hear a little bit more about your background and then i then we'll wanna spend time like that kinda dive in deep on different opportunities in your industry but first like do you wanna like say like kinda like your your thirty second spiel of like who you are and and in the story of how you got there yeah absolutely so wi ahmed i i grew up on north shore long island i as a kid i was kinda wasn't into the sports and exercise i ended up going to harvard and and playing squash in school and i was a competitive college athlete and i feel like i didn't really know what i was doing to my body while i was training as an athlete so that got me very interested in physiology did a ton of physiology research as a student read something like five hundred medical papers and started to conceive of this idea of how you could continuously measure the human body and the idea was initially around athletic performance but broadly i felt like there'd would be ways to continuously measure the human body for all sorts of of health implications and you know what became as a sort of a curiosity ultimately turned into a very long research paper that i wrote and then ultimately founding a company this was would would have been when i was twenty one twenty two years old as a senior harvard and and then for the last ten plus years or so i've been i've been building this this business the business whoop builds wearable technology really to improve people's health we started with the best athletes in the world and and over over time have grown to work with a large consumer population and and it's a a really exciting time to be building that that technology okay so yeah you're the ceo of and founder of whoop if people have seen it to whoop band you've if you have to have seen now on people's risk but you said something like we started with high end athletes i think i read something like this that is this right that lebron and michael phelps or two of the first hundred customers or users of whoop is that is that real and how did how did that happen that is real and this would have been around two thousand fourteen thousand fifteen so you know we spent about two to three years really on the initial v one of loop and you know i wanted to start with the best athletes in the world and really for two reasons the first was that we were bringing sleep and recovery technology to market for the first time and i felt like professional athletes to you know to perform on a daily basis should really understand how they're recovering that was one of the insights to starting the business and and then second of all if we could get the world's best athletes to wear whoop and organically like it then we could build a whole brand around performance that ultimately could could scale to to consumers and and i grew up very inspired by brands like nike and and the jordan brand and and just how like a sw on something could meet make the whole product feel completely different independent from anything else about the product just because of the the storytelling behind it or the brand behind it so i was interested in how health monitoring could have a brand to it and and so that that was really the thesis for targeting professional athletes and and so in the case of getting to lebron and phelps the i think the key insight was finding people in their lives who had a big influence on them who a bunch of people didn't already know you know if you go to their agent or their manager or their wife like they get inundated with this stuff so you have to find someone in there and in their a life who who other people don't know and it also turned out back then that the personal trainer was a somewhat underrated or unknown person in a a professional athletes life and that also happened to be the right person to go to for technology like whoop so in the case of lebron i got to know mike see us in the case of phelps we got to know keen robinson both of which were personal trainers to those athletes and got them on whoop and then they got their athletes on whoop and yeah the rest of history how big the business now i you guys have raised what like four hundred million dollars you know raised four hundred million we we've last raised capital a three point six billion dollar valuation i think there's still you know a lot of potential for health monitoring i think few fast forward ten years i think a large percentage of the world's population will be wearing a continuous health monitor and it'll hook into everything that you do as it relates to the healthcare care system and doctors and and so yeah i'm very bullish sean on the opportunity in the space do you like being the ceo of a of a big company or do you wish do you like still wish that you're in the early days of like getting in the nitty gritty because i imagine you're like kinda just making decisions now and managing people as opposed to maybe getting your hands dirty on the product well i'm was still trying to stay close to the product because i think it's something i've had a a relevant perspective on you then as a company is as scaled and and i've been able to see around corners in a few areas for the wu of product i think that the role of being ceo is as you guys know changes a lot with stage and scale right like ten person versus a hundred person versus five hundred person like at each of these inflection your your role definitely changing i think because whoop as a technology gets increasingly interesting with scale it's made my role increasingly interesting as well so what do i mean by that you know the overall dataset set that you have on on a larger population makes the data much more predictive and much more powerful the coaching as a result can get much more comprehensive i think for other founders i've met who have been building a business for five years or ten years they get to a point where they're kind of like okay this can run itself or i'm gonna bring in someone new or i've kinda reached the relative peak of over the mountain and i don't feel that way i feel like there's still a bunch more levels to go i feel that the insights that the technologies they were able to get the number of people that it can potentially use by all of that feels like it's amplifying not shrinking and and some for those reasons that yeah know i'm very excited about about being ceo it's it's also a look it's a daily challenge growing into it i feel like at every stage of the business i've had to learn how to had a be as ceo and it's not like this is the first just the first company i started it's my first full time job so you know i'm i'm i'm figuring a lot of this out as i go sam owes asked that question and i'm just waiting for the one person who's like i hate being ceo you i hate my job i hate all these people that are in this office this is terrible there's certain things that change a lot right like you you're the percent of time what you think of yourself as an individual contributor versus a manager has to shift very dramatically i think probably around the size of fifty people it has to shift like that like oops was about five hundred people and but that's probably one of the most painful things that if a founder doesn't fully appreciate or recognize they can screw the business up a lot like you have to recognize how that you need to be shifting almost entirely towards manager and not being an individual contributor well you know what it is is we we we we talked to a lot of interesting people here and the ceo of like a five hundred person plus company usually looks like shit not always but usually like they look tired and there's rings under their eyes and they're usually a little chu and it takes a huge swing of coffee well no they look like crap but you're a you're like the ceo of a fitness brand you you were highly competitive athlete and so you look great and so it's like you're you're you're you're kinda like skew the the the average here but like i mean you look pretty fit it's are you like how are you balancing like being healthy and putting your but also putting your company first because i like when i was really in the think of it i was like dude i don't have time to work out like screw it i'm just gonna eat this crap but at well you don't you don't know this but what are your competitors it was my neighbor and we used to work out together in my garage every day and then and then he got promoted to ceo he was like he was like a different exec got promoted to ceo and then stopped having time to work out like he just kept coming by while i was working saying and he was like i gotta get back in here and we're like dude you're the boss you know you could just like rearrange your schedule right he's like got it's crazy it's crazy right now oh it's crazy right now and for like nine months straight it was crazy right now and he just stopped working out was like bro you run a health company like you gotta if you don't sleep or work out or make time for this stuff like you know what's going on here and i just thought that was so funny like the the fact that he was like you know i we have to make this successful in order to do that i'm gonna make these health sacrifices as like go what super nice i mean dude wills got like a chiseled like jolly got nice head a hair you wearing to it looks like a like a like a vest you like all you're like all sp and you look nice and shit what what do you what do you do to exercise right now and how are you balancing that with the work hey look i think it's part of the the job for me that that i'm gonna be in in good shape and healthy and i spend a lot of time around people that are super into their health and fitness whether it's professional athletes or scientists or even thinking about product features that are designed to improve your health so as a business like just thinking about the the product and technology that we build every day that kinda orient me at least to be to be healthy and not to mention i'm using a product that is all about health improvement so you know for a variety of reasons it feels like it'd be super off brand if i was if i was really at shape or what what's your like sleep score when you sleep or your you know you give us your give us your stats and also what are some things that you know a lot of this audience who listens to this i would say probably i would guess the majority don't regularly wear a continuous health monitor but also the majority care about performing well peak performance and as as an entrepreneur typically who's listening to this so what are some things that they that you you've learned that you know they maybe should be doing or you know some of the biggest levers that you've seen when it comes to you know kind of health and performance well i wanna be clear that that i do believe building a successful company requires overcoming some level of stress that would break most people so i i do think you have to really push above and beyond what is comfortable i think the technical term is man up will yeah okay mana but with like within that i think there's a lot i think there's a lot of techniques that you can develop for yourself that allow you to run at at a break neck pace for a long long time you know people always talk about this analogy of okay it's not a it's not a sprint it's a marathon but if you actually look at like world class marathon they're running like four minute at mile four thirty mile it's kind of a sprint yeah so you know and how do you run a mile that path so i think for the entrepreneur or the you know the the business leader listening to this you wanna figure out a way that you can be spreading a marathon for a long time and and one of the ways i view that is taking care of myself and and being in good shape i think we can start with sleep which is isn't i think a topic that's not talked about in the right framework most people when you talk to to them about their sleep they're like oh i don't have enough time and working our blah blah the thing to understand about sleep is it's all about the percentage of time that you spend in bed getting high quality sleep so if if you ask your your audience or you ask friend is never wanna health monitor and you say how much did you got last night he'll be like oh well want to bed at eleven or woke cup it fixed i got seven hours of sleep pretty good okay the reality spent seven hours in bed so of those seven hours you are in a period of awake a period of light sleep a period of ram and a period of slow sleep awake and light are pretty much irrelevant you're not getting any physiological benefit from being in awake or light stage sleep rem and slow wave that's where all the magic happens so rem sleep is and your mind is repairing so like real cognitive repair it's when you have deep dreams so if you're someone who can't remember dreams or you don't seem to have dreams you're definitely not getting enough rem sleep any high performing exec entrepreneur you need rem sleep slow wave sleep is when your body produces ninety five percent of its human growth hormone so just think about that for a second ninety five percent of your human growth hormone gets produced during this stage of sleep you're not getting stronger in the gym right or working out you're breaking muscles down you get stronger during slow by sleep so the more you get to that the better okay and let's take the person to spend seven hours in bed that person could have gotten a total of thirty minutes of rem slow sleep or they could have gotten a total of five and half hours of rem slow sleep like that's an like a massive massive difference that's a huge spectrum the person with thirty minutes i guarantee you has to all kinds of problems in the lives the person with five hundred hours i guarantee you is very happy very high functioning and what's like what's like really strong if if a eight hour block was you know i mean the bed for eight hours what would be like a good level of rem the wave sleep if you can get over fifty percent of the time you're spending in bed to be rem slow sleep like you're in you're doing pretty well and so i i'm in that camp and and i'm also still optimizing my life more to be a ceo or an entrepreneur than a human right if i was just fully focused on being a great human i would probably spend eight to nine hours in bed right and i wouldn't look at my phone before bed and things like this right but because i'm still optimizing for being an entrepreneur right i you know i spend more like seven hours in bed or you know seven and a half maybe if if i if i get a little extra sleep but i've managed to make that time you know like the three to four hours sometimes even four and a half hours of rem slow sleep so i'm getting the rem slow sleep that like a a person who might be spending either or nine hours in bed is getting because i've figured some stuff out that makes me sleep better so that that's sort of one whole category right there which is sleep and anyone listening me should try to figure that out for themselves because it's it it'll just dramatically change the quality of of your life i'll give you another hack i wear these blue light blocking glass before bed and they've got a red like kind of a red tint to them and if you think about laptops iphones whatever all of them are emitting this light that is telling your eyes and your brain to stay awake and if you're like me and you're using your phone or reading an email you know closely before bed because you know you're you're doing work or you're just sitting hang on top of things it's gonna affect the way you sleep but if you wear these glasses it's like a get agile free card and you can look at all that stuff right up until the moment you go to bed and it won't affect your sleep so so that's like one example of of how you can hack both sides of it have you you said you've been around all these interesting athletes you also have access now to like millions of p pieces of data who are some of the biggest freaks in nature that you've been around is there like judy and iowa that's getting like nine and a half hours of slow wave sleep and she's your hero you got like a picture of her on your wall yeah or like like all these athletes that you've been around like is there anyone who you just like you've seen them in real life is they're like came in jumbo incredible yeah what are like when we chris when we first started looking we searched for we first started working with lebron james this sort of been two thousand in fifteen thousand sixteen his sleepy potato i could probably point to the one that was lebron just kind of amazing like and it makes a lot of sense that that he was so good at and has been so good at recovering in his career because he's taking care of that third of his life and and sleeping great i think it's maybe the most rem and slow wave sleep of anyone i i've talked to named alex hon do you guys know that name so yeah tunnel is from free solo yeah yeah the climber the climber right so this is a guy who who you know climbs mountains without a rope essentially and and does these insane feat that are extremely dangerous so the interesting thing about rem sleep is researchers were able to find the more rem sleep you get the less heightened amygdala response so your amygdala response is is fight flight you know what signals to your body to to to be nervous or to to get animated so it makes a lot of sense that the guy who's capable of climbing you know rock climbing these environments that no one's done before without a rope has this insane ability to sleep because that's probably in part what makes him so calm as he's doing these activities so i dude i just i just googled alex's name and then rem sleep i think we just gave you the promo of the century man like this this is the marketing this is like it should be it it comes up the first thing it comes up is like a ted talk now your company talking about how you sleep more you get more rem sleep than you're able to like take a little bit more risk and be calm i mean that that's like a really that's like a really interesting play here do what we'll take on those athletes do you think it's a sort of like intentional thing like you think that they you know like is lebron or alex are they doing something that's making their sleep that much better or do you think because they happen to be great sleepers that that is what allowed them to become such great athletes or such great performers i mean there's certain there's certainly genetic things that make people better rewards at sleeping but there's also so many things that you the individual can do to enhance your sleep sleeping at a very consistent time so going to bed and waking up at a very similar time we'll just we'll just unusually elevate the quality of of your sleep often sleeping in a very cold room a very dark room a very quiet room a room of high air quality athletes are serious about this stuff will you know measure all of that and dial it in i still think athletes aren't sophisticated enough about sleep and recovery given how important it is to their overall performance but the those are a variety of things you can do we talked about blue light there's certain supplements that work better or worse for people magnesium melatonin interestingly hard harder harder sleep drugs like the ambiance of the world they they knock you out to your sleep latency short but the quality of the sleep is never that high so again back to that percentage of time that you're in rem and slow if it it is rarely you know maybe if you're someone who normally be at thirty percent you're gonna be at twenty percent dude i've i was a a a four hundred meter runner division formula me a runner in college i used to be like fairly competitive and i knew a bunch of while player yeah and i knew a bunch of basketball players who ended up going in the nba because i i was friends with them in college and due to shocking how bad myself included how bad most competitive athletes are when it comes to like a diet and recovery like i didn't know anything i just like i would eat like ranch and pizza every day and a couple of my friends who went and went went on to play in the nba like we're just he mcdonald's like on a regular basis it's pretty amazing how like some people are still freaks even though they don't do any of that nonsense you know it's great and we've worked a lot of athletes site who yeah used to play video games from eleven pm to two am you know you you gotta a game the next stand front of a million people you know and it doesn't occur to them that that actually is gonna affect their performance and then you look at the data and it's like okay you're you've got a red recovery even though you didn't drink alcohol because you stayed a late staring at a screen whereas if you you know gone to bed at the same time these star video games here's the difference in what your your performance is sean are you gonna make fun of me or something no i don't know i was gonna ask actually this is a a personal question naps where what's what's the word on naps because i am a prolific nap in fact what of my life goals is to be able to take a guilt free nap every single day and i know athletes are pretty big on naps as well but i don't know if you could get to those deeper stages in a quick you know in a one that or or one a half hour nap what's the word on naps fair winston churchill if you'd to have a daily nap that'd yeah that'd be pretty good yeah that's a that that's a good way to put yeah yeah yeah i feel like he's the coolest he's the coolest person i can think of who who really pioneered the daily nap as a as a a hardcore yeah it's a hardcore nap i'll i'll i like that i think that sounds better because my my nap marketing is pretty pretty soft right now i need to i need to up it i need to have a churchill nap in fact i'm gonna brand it as i'm gonna brand it as a churchill nap dude i i do it every day as well yeah yeah about two o'clock for for about thirty or forty minutes every single day and do you get in bed or are you just lie a couch kinda of thing no i only go sean do you go to bed i only go to bed for nighttime sleeping and then i i i i refuse to lay in the bed i go for children i have a nap bedroom and i have a a master bedroom really yeah interesting and you do wear a sleep mask or you just close your ass i i wear a sleep mask but i get knocked out like i wake up two hours later and i'm like i'm a whole different human being i feel like when you wait and you can sleep at night after two hours i can do two hours two hours is a real nap yeah churchill really what you do you do two hours in the middle but that's my goal my goal is to get that to be an every everyday thing right now it's an every third day sean it's like here's my life advice young man gotta get a solid sixteen every day it likes cream cheese i'm not a a big nap person personally i i almost rarely ever take naps but i think that they're certainly plenty of research that shows that for most people getting an app versus not is gonna make them feel better and perform better i certainly think a lot of athletes take them in the afternoon or even someone will take them almost right up to the time before tip off or when they're when they have their their event so and they because i think one of the reasons for them is they also need to peak in their performance much later in the day than most people right so like a an nba game might start at seven thirty or eight they're playing until until nine or ten or whatever and so but whereas most people are winding down at that time but they so they kinda need to shift their their peak performance later in the day whereas our most entrepreneurs are trying to be you know tip top at nine am or whatever yeah i think that's right the the challenge apps is that the percentage of time that you spend in in trying to sleep is often lower as a quality standpoint so that's why i was kinda interested whether you guys get getting bed or whether it's more casual because you might up the intensity of the setup of your nap to really maximize the the quality of the sleep so try things like a sleep mask or try you know a couple little things and you might of almost sudden feel even better after your nap are you the only founder are you are you a solo founder well i i was fortunate in that i met two really talented engineers when i was graduating from harvard so one is john ka who for ten years was our chief technology officer and the other is really a nikola lives still with me he's our chief mechanical engineer and the combination of of the three of us really built really built the company now a lot of it was algorithms development you know computer science data science having the right prototypes and yeah so it was it was it was very technical out of the gates well what but you're you're you were the the you consider them cofounder are just meaningful contributors i consider them c cofounder i mean i i came up with the the idea for the company you know years before i met them but but they've been an amazing i mean amazing piece of of the whoop story and critical what do you so you're the ceo your your founder of a a multi billion dollar startup up what what do you do with i assume i don't know if you're liquid or not or if you have a lot of your equity so tied up what are you gonna do with all your money when you eventually do get liquid do you have like any big aspirations or are you just like a boring guy who just like when i take secondary along the way any any secondary yeah i have it's well look it doesn't it doesn't actually change your your motivation all that much in building the the business that was something that i remember someone's saying to me or at various points when i had the the option to sell some shares and i think it's really just made the quality of my life higher you you should post your sleep before and after the secondary be like do i sleep easier at night not by the way fifty million in the bank yeah it turns out i do actually i do sleep a little easier at night taking secondary i remember when i was first getting going in my career and i heard about these second and i was like that's bullshit i think it was rooted a little bit in envy but i also was like you gotta be all in and now that i've like done a little bit of stuff i realized having a safety net and this is like a very obvious thing to say so i sound like idiot get here but having a safety net particularly like a meaningful safety net of of of liquid net worth i think one hundred percent makes you better at building your company and i think taking second it it changes on a scale sometimes there's too much but taking secondary i think we'll make you a better company builder do you agree with that i do especially if you're at a like a growth stage of company i don't i don't think i ever sold shares until whoop was worth at least a billion dollars and there were for rounds that were super overs subscribed so i but i do think that's a fair i think that's a fair lens to look at it from i've read about people taking second at the you know series a stage or something and i don't know everyone's i could look everyone's circumstances are different so you don't wanna you don't wanna judge but i do think for a company that's at a later stage where you're trying to you're making this calculus the is a company that's gonna be acquired in a short period of time or is this a company that we're trying to build to be a standalone business and i think if it's more the latter you want your your founders or your he your you know your ceo you want you want folks like that to be not sort of looking at their bank account wondering when they're gonna cash out on this that you want them in a mode of and i can keep going for a while and you know really optimize the business so yeah i agree i agree with you what what do you do with your money would do you just do like boring vanguard or like index funds or or or do you do something a little more risky and what do you like to spend spend your money on i wouldn't say i'm the biggest spend money but i i i mean i've enjoyed investing in stuff investing in startups ups meeting founders i've enjoyed backing stuff that my friends do or start i if you go out to dinner with your friends do they just when bill comes do they just sort of look at you and wait now or oh yeah they got they got t rex arms they can't remember suddenly that that wings span shortened up big time can couldn't even get to the pocket anymore no i mean look i think it's it's great of course to be able to be generous too and and take care of people or cover bills or whatever i i think it it just sort of creates a peace of mind for you in in an important way if you're gonna be trying to do something for the next ten years what companies did you wanna start before that because i'm looking at your background so you said you're from long island you live in in boston and went to harvard so that's amazing but you studied economics like you it didn't look like you and then you worked at a bank right or you're just like an intern at a bank you were i know i'm my wife's a long island it look you're going down this a very typical path of just being some like banker type in in the city but you kinda like took a left somewhere what what other companies were you thinking about starting i wasn't thinking about starting companies at all actually and and your observation right i sort of i thought in the back of my mind i would go work and finance after i graduated because that's what a lot of people seem to do and and i had some background of finance because my dad had worked in finance but you know internships are a great thing to figure out what you don't wanna do so i worked at a hedge fund after my freshman year i worked at an investment bank after my sophomore and i worked at a private equity firm after my junior year and the question i asked myself in each of those places is you know did i wanna be my boss's boss or boss's boss's boss or you know if i could be one day and and i just didn't i didn't feel that poll i didn't feel this like gravitational pull towards it and at the same time i was becoming sort of obsessed with this idea and i think i ultimately became an entrepreneur before i really knew what an entrepreneur was it wasn't like i was choosing between three or four different ideas it was just this one idea that i became obsessed with well in the last decade that you've been doing this you know any entrepreneur i think because seize other opportunities you see things that are pain points for your business that you're like man somebody should make this easier or you meet a bunch of other entrepreneurs and you realize oh wow there's like a whole universe of potential businesses that that can be started and be successful a lot of people listens podcast to try to get ideas to think about what what's what's possible what's possible what can i be doing right now and so do you have any business ideas that have come to you you know as you've been running whoop that you're not gonna go do because you're running whoop but like you know maybe somebody else could do good i have a lot of sort of funny tangent like business ideas that are sort of silly business ideas that you you know think up i'm in the shower or whatnot and so we can we can refund some of those let's see and then i have you know have some that are more don't don't tell us which ones are the series or the silly we'll we'll we we probably will get them all mixed up ourselves anyway so take one off your list and let let's hear it okay this is a very funny one so the the idea for the company is is carb pipes and it's it's vocalist lessons while you're commuting in the morning so you're in your car and you forgot someone who's teaching you at a sing and you know you're you're car yeah you're in a safe space so you could you you can belt it out exactly those are the types those are the types of ideas i feel like that i think of a lot i'll i'll give that one i'll give that one a b sam f i think i i always wanted to sing look dude you you you have so much listen you have so much data so i both having car pipes no it's stupid you're you're you're a brilliant man and you just had one dumb idea i'm a allowed to say that you both sean and i have both invested in continuous glucose monitor companies i don't know i don't know if you ever i i think i had an opportunity to pass on your company will or somehow a deck made it my way and i and i was at a fool and i didn't do it or maybe i didn't have any money i think that's what it was i think i think i just didn't have any money i think i was just i just didn't have enough cash i mean i wanna know like which of these wearables do you think are gonna be awesome and which wearables in the future are going to be are gonna be a thing you know on the pod what we've talked about i don't have a background like you so i'm i'm just kinda r here but i've always thought it was ridiculous how you can have like a cancer or something bad inside of your body growing and you know i've had family members who have passed away and it was like you know had we just gotten this mri or cat scan like six months ago you would been fine and i've always thought it's very strange that something can be in your body and it's just a matter of you just didn't get it measured otherwise you would've have been you could have been fine i've always thought that to be quite strange and whoop actually told me one time when had covid i thought that was sick and i'm like well sick you should tell me if i have like cancer as well you know what i mean the that's that's a that's something that's always fascinated me yeah and i i would put i would put all that sort of in the category of like obvious innovation that's coming the combination of body scans blood work and continuous monitoring through a non invasive wearable will ultimately be able to predict a lot of things that that you know are are disease states or or leading indicators for death and so i'm i'm very optimistic about how profoundly the health space the relationship with your doctor i mean all of that'll change it's which so so obvious and then the other thing is and and a artificial intelligence is a very popular expression these days but ai will be enormously valuable for analyzing a lot of a lot of these somewhat complicated scans to look for things inside your body that might be off which which which otherwise required the not inexpensive radio to look at or something which startups do you think better at like the sub one hundred or sub fifty employee count and maybe sub three hundred ish million market cap or about valued like below that do you see in the health health and wellness and anything related to that category that you think is gonna have a similar trajectory as you guys and has a bunch of meat on the bone for for growth and upside you know it's funny because i i think i've spent so long thinking about health and wellness it's almost like the bar to invest in a health and wellness thing is is is too high so i actually find that i don't invest in all that much related to health and wellness like i'm racking my brain right now i think something that i'm involved and that's in that's directly health and wellness a related company that i think it's quite quite powerful is called whisper which i am an investor in and it is they've essentially built technology that allows you that can transcribe your thoughts which is is pretty powerful technology if you think about it the ability to think something and and it gets written out so i i really like deep tech stuff like that that feels feels like magic feels like the future and how that how way how does it do that you're wearing or like a brain scanner device type thing and then you literally literally think something and it writes it how what happens i don't wanna a bunch of this but the the the short of it is it it looks like you know an old jaw might have one of those bluetooth yeah sets and and that's you know that's what the technology form factor looks like and you literally just think something and it writes it or you have to like sort of whisper it i believe what's using your your brain waves what's the url of this it's whisper dot ai i oh okay i just saw it looks like a little it looks like a like a hearing aid yep oh that's cool how much money have they raised do you know i wanna say something in like the fifteen to twenty million range wow that's pretty fascinating this data is wrong every freaking time have you heard of hubspot hubspot is a crm platform where everything is fully integrated well i can see the clients hold history calls tickets emails and here's a test from three days ago i totally missed hotspot hubspot girl adam so here here's a category of work that's a little more serious obviously you guys have seen everything that's come out in terms of deep fakes and the ability to create videos of people that are almost in indistinguishable from for a real video right i think that there there's gonna be like a talent agency of sorts that's for non living people so you know imagine if you're if you're tom cruise towards end of your career the same way justin bieber just sold like the rights to his songs maybe tom cruz sells the rights to tom cruise and you can keep making movies with tom cruise for the next hundred years or another version of that is you can have an actor like tom cruise who's completely artificial have you seen the tom cruise deep fake on tiktok totally it's it's it's incredible it's sam have you seen this thing yeah it's amazing you know who did that sean we talked about it fucking the south park guys is that deep voodoo or that somebody else i thought it was deep i thought deep voodoo did the time time cruise what am i wrong miles fisher miles fisher oh yeah yeah yeah yeah and he's going a dozen i think it's him and this other guy i'll and because he kinda looks like tom chris but there's a whole technology i think that doesn't even need a human involved which you know would just essentially take the fact that tom cruise has made fifty movies and be able to yeah but that's essentially you're like instead of selling your back catalog sell your future catalog basically so right sell your likeness too you could you could create a ai likeness and just license it out to whoever wants to kinda use it which is obviously has some some potential like you know ways it can be misused but seems valuable enough where people would figure that out have you guys sort of care i think her is it's the name kayla the instagram influencer who doesn't exist you don't talking about little yeah yeah it's like a model that is completely made up right yeah yeah but now just but now she's got like a boyfriend i don't actually know if they're together or anymore but she's got like a whole cast of characters though and i've been getting into it and they raised a bunch of money and like she's getting ad deals it's super fascinating dude it's super fascinating and what's more fascinating is i think that if i if i had to guess the way that they're making the with the way that she looks they're using ai to come up with like the ideal like the ideal person that both men and women are attracted to or like wanna like follow and be into and i follow her boyfriend and he's super skinny and he's little and and dragged like a drag us and i'm like fuck they don't like yolk boys anymore like you know these and so it's kinda funny to see like what they're like making is like the ideal person it's very fast to but the business is making a lot of money i believe well on this pod a while back i had said somebody needs to create a deep fake only fans model so i was like oh you could just have a virtual only fans model but even kinda looks a little virtual that's okay and now this is just a money maker for you right you're like basically like some sort of virtual pi if you created these these ai only fan characters and a guy did it so so a guy reached out out and and so he created it he's like he basically used his girlfriend who's like a model or whatever as the model for it and then created a a ai clone of her and now we're like setting it up and we're gonna see how it goes so i'm really curious to see if this thing like takes off or not so are you actually interested in this business are you are you gonna oh my daughter you get this business is so interesting to see if this works or not yeah but like how do you work with like soft porn all day i'm not doing anything i'm just like getting the update he just dm me and says check this out he'll be like you know we got the account made or we're gonna you know and he'll start sending me updates so how much money they're making right i was i wanna see how it how the experiment turns out i don't have to sit there like train her think about the investor updates that will send he's like you know here's like screenshots of our new prototype you know like we've effectively we've we've gotten people's rem sleep to improve by five percent by just adding this little feature here's a mock up and they're like what what's is it gonna look like to you what's gonna look right i don't know i don't see what the problem is well that's that's actually a so a theme that i think about is like okay fifty years from now what are things that the the future generational will look back at our generation and say oh that was so crazy that that was happening then like there's a lot of easy versions of that for us today right where it's you know you can say smoking on know smoking on airplanes or you know the number of people that died giving birth or you know people dying from just traveling across the country right like so then there's all these examples of that and then if you try to pull it forwards what what would they say about things that feel sort of a little too normalized today and yeah what what are things that your grandkids will say like really grandpa like you know slavery and you're like i don't know it was just the norm back then right like what are those what are those things today that fifty years from now will seem either like crude or rude or what it went in some way right like i think the health monitoring is an obvious one it's like you just didn't know how you were doing and it's like yeah we just didn't know you go to the doctor once a year maybe and like yeah they just randomly measured my blood pressure once a year right that was that was my check up that's that's to me the most obvious one that will seem like wow you guys were really cave you just rolled the dice with that one your whole your whole health thing and that that's just gonna be so different in the future the number of people that die from car accidents seems like it would be on that list dude i was driving last night on a late night like to one lane road and a huge truck went by me and i and it shook my car and we're both going eighty miles an hour like you know passing each other and it does seem it in a in about twenty years it's gonna be so archaic we're like can you believe that we are basically one sneeze away from like an eighty miles an hour like car crash all the time like you just just literally ten feet away five feet away sometimes it it that is gonna that's gonna be that's gonna be our generations smoking section in restaurant that that that cars two cars go that's really it's gonna be like smoking or not smoking but you used to drive these cars going an opposite directions and you were ten feet away from each that's what it's gonna be like i think and like my wife is vegan and she's like yeah like the that the thing that's gonna be you know the fifty years now i was like you just killed animals and adam them like what what why like you that you just thought that was bet like dude bet wheels got be a total opposite take on i that's what i wanted to hear what's your take on sort of like vegan car or appointment based you know all these different you know more extreme versions of diets have you seen anything or where where's your head at was the data say around that the data is a highly personal so you could put two people on identical diets and they could have literally the exact opposite effects on those on those people i remember i i'm mean take professional athletes for example that you guys remember when lebron got early skinny it was like around the olympics yeah and he it he had been playing with ray allen so ray allen got him to go on the paleo diet and because ray allan was obsessed with the paleo diet and again an example it was amazing for a terrible for la lebron like terrible and so there's every rev version of that for for the rest of us for me personally i eat i eat three meals a day i try not to eat crap i eat carbs i i've you know i would have like mediterranean type diet a lot of meats and fishes and vegetables i don't really drink them many calories mostly drink water and coffee so so that's my diet i also think diet is easier if you like the right things and then you can kinda eat as much as you'd like or as much as fills you up versus having to how calories in park because a lot of the calories you consume are really bad calories so those are my quick perspectives on diet dude have you see well have you seen brian johnson do you know who that is yeah the he created a really cool or is creating a very cool company loop that measures brain waves yeah yeah yeah but have you seen blueprint well that's his whole age reversal he he's like a human he's like a human whoop band yeah yeah well he wears whoop and and so that's how i know him and he's come on the whoop podcast before i think he's coming on actually soon is his is he like in the is he in the top like one percent of of data because if not he's doing a hell of a lot of shit with his lifestyle if that doesn't work if that doesn't give him some off the charts readings on his on his sleep and his his strain then i don't know well i wanna be clear that i don't have access to every single person on loop data but but i think some of the stuff we went over because you he was on a podcast maybe a year or two years ago and he was telling me some pretty good stats then and it sounds like he's dialed in an even more since go i'll definitely listen to the podcast gets through them well so listen to this sean this just happened i think this morning it was released so basically he was on our pod and he looks like a freak you know like he's like chiseled he looks awesome and i don't know how old he is actually like he's forty forty yeah yeah but he like he's he's looks great and but you know he does all this insane stuff that you'd expect a billionaire there to be able to do he's got like a thirty doctors like helping him do all this he he you know whatever well it just released that or it was just released that you can spend i think like a lot like one point five or two million dollars a year and you basically can he's gonna like anyone can use his doctors and go through his system in order to what are trying to do for the listeners is he's basically it's kind of like this thought exercise he's taking it seriously which is he's trying to reverse his age which you can do through like improving your blood and losing weight things like that so reverse his biological age faster than his chronological lot of chronological age goes up because in theory if you do that you live forever obviously that won't happen but it's like an interesting like thought exercise but now anyone can sign up and apply to use like all the crazy shit that he's doing you can you're gonna do it sam it's like two million dollars a year no also like i have a here i have a thing with all the fitness people and brian i i called brian out for this and he actually answered it well but i'm like do you ever experience joy like like like like so i don't drink alcohol and a lot of people will say like i've been wanting to do that and i'm like well do you have a problem and they go no it just thought but like then like it sounds dope then just get drunk every once in a while that like you know that's like that's like a life worth living is like when you have things to celebrate and like you can build cam with your friends like yeah just do it or you might live a little shorter you might be sick for a few days but like you know like experience joy that's good and so with brian i was like hey do you ever like had birthday cake for your kid's birthday like do and he's like no i've only cheated like once one meal over like two years or something like that and i was like well you happy and he said i'm happy him so my opinion of was okay great you're winning but for most people i don't know experience joy a little bit like be healthy and also like get after up every once in a while i think that's good advice will i have a i have a similar thing that you'll just you'll you'll hate slash disagree with which is on my twitter i have this tweet that's pinned that just says here's some semi controversial things that i believe and one of them is you don't need a sleep tracker great sleep is obvious and i think you would probably disagree this is kind of the premise of your life right now but you gotta admit pretty catchy and there there's some nugget of wisdom in there there's some nugget of truth in that in that belief just because it sounds good it doesn't mean it's true yeah i i mean i think that might be true in like extremely binary terms you know oh i and to wake up for a four am flight or you know the the alarm kept going off last night like yeah okay those are bad nights of sleep but i i think it's it's a or profound lie in the sense of if you're actually trying to understand your nightly sleep and routine like i think there's just a lot it's think about it this way it's a third of your life that is a complete black box you have no idea what's happening during that a third of your life and and science has proven that that's a third of your life that dramatically affects the other two thirds and if you're good at sleeping it decreases every form of potential disease that you can have like it is the magic pill so i don't agree with your tweet but i respect that lot of tweets tons of tweets right we do it for the re sweep out here and i i i do think that that sam's points is a good what good one though as it applies tweet which is if you make all these things seem you know like discipline in spite of joy or or sort of solace then then of course there's some kind of a rebellion against it right and so i've heard people talk about sleep tracking in a way that makes sleep tracking seem profoundly not cool and and i so i understand it through that lens but i think the reality is you can measure things about your body passively that give you a great insight into into your life and can make your life better right yeah okay so what do you what do you think gonna happen well in ten years what's your what's the what's the vision here you gonna go public you you're gonna sell this for ten billion dollars what do think is gonna happen i think we'll will ultimately go public i think that it'll probably be sooner than that time frame that you gave and i think we're gonna build technology that's able to predict a lot of massive life events as they pertains to your health and and along the way provide a twenty four seven coach that helps people meet their goals well beyond health you know psychological goals professional goals just because of the the value that understanding your body can provide dude you've stuck it in the face of all the finance bros you're saying i didn't have to go that route and i still crushed it i think that's awesome i've got so many new year friends and they just and long island friends and they do the same thing over and over and over again i'm like you're selling your soul man this is the worst and it's so cool that you kinda saw that route is not maybe for you and you you're gonna just crush it we're big fans of whoop i've never tested the or ring so i've been loyal to to my whoop i've been calling it i call it whoop and whoop so my apologies i actually didn't know the right way to pronounce yeah is the right way whoop oh i like kinda like whoop too like i would never say i'm woo ass but i would say i'm a whoop so you know like i kind of i don't know that's not it the founder of it or sam yeah what do you know if you wear it inside out it's whoop yeah i never knew how you pronounce it but my wife and i have our our paid subscribers how much do i think we pay you three hundred dollars a year i don't remember that you for two years and i just didn't have my band i lost my band and then i just kept the subscription going so you know you're welcome on that one but now i got my band back and now i'm getting the value yeah yeah if you reach out to membership services they'll send you a band no problem if you're a subscriber the hardware included i mean that was one of the more so that was like more it's now in hindsight but in two thousand eighteen we we changed the whole business model being a subscription where the hardware was included how much did was that like a huge i mean did your economics drastically changed totally i mean we used to sell the product for five hundred dollars one time fee everything included then we went to you can sign up for as little as thirty dollars like picture the just all the cash implications gross margin implications everything that happens almost overnight when you do that and it was also about the business moment because okay companies founded in two thousand twelve if you're changing your business model that profoundly six or seven years later you're also admitting you haven't figured out the right business model six or seven years into building company so yeah know that was all that was all quite quite painful and concerning but we you know we created a really cool business model that now has been amazing yeah now you're gonna get maybe you can make you're gonna make an argument i don't know if you're gonna get it but you're gonna make an argument that you get those saas multiples yeah and then i think there's a fair case for that yeah i i don't know what your churn is but that'd be that'd be bad ass because that i mean you that's a that's a that's a you know five times more valuable company well dude this is awesome yeah thanks for coming on i we took you a little over time sorry about that but but thanks for coming on well this is this is fun and yeah everybody go get some sleep and by the way sean from you that's a big pivot well i i said great sleep is important i just said great sleep is obvious you know directional you know which way you're going whether you track it or not and then once you get once you get going in the right direction then start measuring it and optimizing it did you have a twitter thread that was killing club house again that blood is on my hands yes oh that's yeah how's that what are you say on point and all of the club house investors who blocked me because they thought i was just being a hate you know the my door has a little mail slot for apologies and they're welcome to go ahead and slip the slip the apology back in yeah know i'm i'm connecting the dots on some tweets of yours that i've i've read now because i also remember that sleep one i think about it that was my version of the of the club has thread for you i don't know that business very well but it certainly seems like it's not doing as well as it was in the middle of covid well i think what a hip the chris sean is by the way he's got he owns a whoop yeah whoop whoop he owns a he owns a whoop and he's still saying you don't need a sleep tracker that's bullshit man call him out will yeah well i i definitely will now well i'm waiting for the version that like just auto charges or just like stays charged for like two years so i can just leave it on because i'm a notorious lose shit guy so you know i'm on my eighteenth airpods i you know i've gone through three whoop bands and it's the charging that gets me every single time same what's the plan dude or is a thirty day charge gonna happen anytime there or is it for guy to get an infinite battery around here yeah just do better and but and by the way the the modular battery pack i think was a good innovation at least so you don't have to take it off but but but you know originally i was hoping we'd be able to do it like watches where there's certain watches for this movement yeah keep it alive the reality is that because we collect so much health data or driving the battery pretty hard and the sensors pretty hard so in some ways it's great that we've gotten to four or five days but but customer feedback heard okay we'll we'll work on the two year model for both of you no that's been my same thing which that's why i don't wear an apple watches i think it's so stupid that you gotta charge those things all the time i think dude i love my wedding on my honeymoon because i just lose everything same i had a i got my tattooed on my hand because i lost it so much because same i think i like i'm not smart enough to get away with this absent minded professors shit where it's like oh he's so messy but he's brilliant it's like please you know above average it's like that doesn't have the same doesn't have the same you know excuse power for me that's alright you're you're you're good enough that you can screw every once in a while but yeah the battery thing man you guys gotta figure that out but we have i think we have will email in the calendar invite so sean you're just gonna you're just gonna message him hey will lost my band please hook up thanks right i'll i will delete mail i'll delete tweet fair you don't have that many people losing it because they wear it all the time so you must be taking it off too i got also got little kids and my little kids are like oh bracelet toy you know they just think it's the theirs and so they just steal it when it's charging on the counter and they they now i i lose it so you know whatever well dude thanks for doing this give you guys your your p guy john is my good buddy john hooked us up with a aerial h on you like you see ariel and john or good buddies and aerials like the face of like journalism he hooked us up at that he made the introduction to you so we we owe him a shout but i appreciate you coming on this is awesome are you big have steve oh yeah we both are yeah we're both huge into are you i'm not a huge fan but i mean i observe it from a distance i i think athletes fleets are like you know some of the more impressive physical specimens in the world yeah be besides the whole brain thing besides that yeah and the slap league thing that they gotta put that away that's a stupidest fucking thing on earth i hate the slap league what i hate the slap dude that is the dumbest thing on the slap league what that is so i wanted i watched three minutes of the preview and i was like you just when i thought i was out dana white you got me back it's you guys is a dumbest thing ever i really are fan of that no one's saying it's it's horrible you and they get knocked out so for those listening who don't know what talking about it's basically i think they have weight classes but it's usually always like big old fat guys looking like they're supposed to be strong but they look huge and they just stand in front of each other and they smack each other five times right is that the rule five slaps and but they almost always get knocked out it looks like yeah you just take turns open hand slapping each other but the slap is like a thud it's not like a slap it's a you basically a punch and yeah it basically results in a brutal knockout like every every single match which is pretty crazy it's and and their faces are so swollen have you seen that like when their jaws are so swollen dude and they wear ear plugs because they will rupture your ear eardrum you know if you ever gotten hit in the ear it what's horrible so sam did you see the trailer for it like they released the the preview that was like supposed to hype you up introduced the league and they're like these people come from you know everywhere there come from nothing this was doing this now this is giving him this opportunity and he's and then one guy goes i just wanna change the world man lost this your plan change the world one slap at a time brother what are you doing we're democrat slap chris no has done all this concussion research at boston universities one of the the key guys from for concussion research and the nfl was just he was the that he he was in the wwf wasn't he was like a professional wrestler yeah and he had a bunch of concussion and and he's like it's it's just half a step from having people just stab each other on live tv and been saying who makes it yeah we're we should also give get ratings right there's this idea of painful infotainment you heard this term it's basically i get the idea of it from yeah it's a great great name for that reason right which is we love entertainment of people suffering you know and and so like whether this is tv shows like survivor or naked it in afraid or whatever where they have to suffer in that way or it's somebody suffering in an emotional way when you watch it doctor phil or jerry spring and somebody finds out they got cheated on or their mori tells them they are not the father or whatever there is a you know they used to have executions publicly and people would come and watch the execution literally like you know whatever in france and the old days and so there's this long history of people enjoying self watching suffering as a form of entertainment and it's this crazy thing but it's it's something that that does because i'm not saying it's good or bad but like i do think it's a i do think it's gonna work for that reason there's some darkness there yeah well thanks for making this happen dude we appreciate it's just fun thanks for having me guys yeah well we'll be in touch because you know i'm gonna be email emailing you all my complaints about my whoop but and maybe i'll be one of your investors whenever you ipo but this is awesome and we appreciate it do you you can give a shout up by the way witch your do you do use social media at all at at will or are my handles well thanks for making this happen we really appreciate it we'll talk to soon you will talk soon guys cool