Threads vs Twitter & Millionaire Sam Ovens Doesn't Believe In A.I. Hype

parker i think he's parker thompson on twitter he he he replied to that he goes okay so for those keep it score at home he bought a product for forty four billion and then z built the same product for a thousand times less it's stealing all of his users like an absolute chad it is god willing about to choke them out ninety seconds of steel cage soon so that's what a cut means now i feel like i could rude the world to know i could be what i want to from at all in it like a days off on a road less travel alright what's up today's episode we're talking about threads versus twitter the big debate and we're gonna talk about where we where we land our predictions for what we think it's gonna happen how it's gonna play out we told us some funny stories and then in the second half we have a an interview with a guy named sam of it so sam met sam met this guy sam he used to run a business called consulting dot com that added its peak hit thirty million in revenue he was all over our facebook feeds as kinda like one of these internet marketer guys and so we were curious like who is this guy and what's he all about definitely an interesting interview i would say he had some interesting stuff to say also his energy was totally different than most of the guests and also different than what you would expect out of an internet marker so i'm curious to see what people think of it i would say it's you know a sort of like a a a different style of energy than we've done before sam what do you think so for those watching on youtube i'm sweating right now the reason i'm sweating is around minute thirty five i can't stop laughing i'm still laughing about it you're gonna enjoy it taco bell story let's just leave it a taco my god it's ridiculous i don't know like how this story came about in a business pod i'm happy it did i'm sweating right now if you are on spotify or apple and you're listening to this go to our youtube page search my first million go to this episode let us know in the comments what you think people liked when we did that the last time sean we got a lot of comments we got a lot of good feedback it's it's we actually it's been fun to read all the comments but let us know what you think and we'll talk to you soon alright what's up sam we gotta talk about threads threads versus twitter and threads came out a few days ago we've had a few days to to play with it to sit on it to think about it and i think everybody's given their opinion on it and why not ours i wanna hear what you what you have to say about this i have kind of like a way i think we could talk about this the what i'm calling the bull bear case so the bull case the bear case and then where we land but i first just wanna hear like i don't know when did you get on it and what was your kind of initial reaction how how on your radar was this thing to begin with i had only heard about it three or four days before it launched and i heard about it because of a leak i think there was a leak right there somehow it leaked out that it was coming out so i downloaded the app like the you can download it before it launched and then i got the notification right at midnight or whenever it said it launched and i signed up i think it's pretty cool are you jealous that i already have more followers than you do on that because i was already going hard on instagram yeah yeah going hard on instagram paid off there you got like a like a double bonus for for growing your instagram so so perhaps to you on that i think it's great you know why i think it's great i really think it's great for one reason which is twitter to me is pretty great but dude my feed is just like fight videos and people getting shot and dying like it's real it's kind of become a little bit sad that's you i also i don't know if that's anybody else is fault you know when you click the follow button and the like button and the save button the algorithm will just give you more look here's the deal if you see like a fight video you watch it like you're not not gonna watch that it's like when you have a hot girl that like scrolls through like you you slow you scroll slower through that what that does this sketch here alright keeps scrolling yeah so just all these weird handles i also think that i've i've become such a stand for z and this whole thing he's just proven to be like the man he's he's he's come off very likable and so i find myself picking sides based off of the owner of the company yeah yeah it's become it's it's become sports it's become tribal whose team are you on and i don't know how the hell i ended up being suck but i'm like i'm on teams z it's very obvious to me it's very clear i i think this guy done an incredible re brand of his personality because he went from like easy to hate for a bunch of reasons one becomes rich and powerful people don't like that two he looked like a robot talk like a robot seemed to have no personality so you know that was you know again like for the people who didn't get turned off by the power and billionaire thing they got turned off by like okay this guy is a lizard or he's a robot like what what's going on with this guy and then somehow you know he hired the top top p agencies in the world he hired the the fixer the wolf came in and tried to fix him all he needed to do is start working out he the guy guy takes ten digits two classes and and learns how to do a pull up and all of a sudden idiots like us are like you know what i fuck with this guy yeah like he's relatable somehow yeah it totally worked on me and then to the point where you start thinking about it and this happened also with lebron james lebron james at one point was you're super hyped then he became the guy and then people started to turn on him then he did this thing where he left his team went to miami and everyone's like oh i hate this guy and then somebody pointed out like so you're telling me this kid at all the pressure in the world when he was seventeen eighteen years old delivered on the hype lived up to it never gotten trouble with the law you've never heard about this guy you know it married his high school sweetheart is a good dad to his kids you know is is one of the best players of all time and just like keeps himself in phenomenal fitness in shape and tries as hard as you can every single year well what do have a problem with and in the same way i feel like the same that's happened for z where it's like so this guy who built this company that billions of people use stuck with the company he's he works hard every single day you know married you know his college sweetheart never been in trouble with anything doesn't tweet out offensive stuff doesn't say anything just to get a reaction it seems like a perfectly a reasonable guy works out hard is a good dad like what do you hate about this guy again what's you going on do you know how old z is he's like alright he's like he's little older us right he's like thirty seven thirty eight thirty nine yeah he's a he's he just turned thirty nine know in lebron also thirty eight these guys were the same man they're the same they've been dude they were same yeah yeah lebron got drafted what he was a high right out high school zach has been the man since he was twenty one or twenty two there's been nothing i mean there's been like if you look the grand scheme it's there's been no like human errors no no no no self yeah there's been like business airs that have been cringe but there's been nothing that they've done where you're like oh that guy's is a piece of shit if you're not crime is cringe you're doing alright know what yes when you're the man for that long that is impossible that is so challenging to do that so you know what so we're we're clearly z fan let's talk about thread so oh and by the way did you see what elon posted i don't know he sit on twitter he goes z is a cock you own a k is yeah yeah i i do i i had to look it up really that cock is a a cock is a guy who wants his wife to sleep with other men and he like it enjoys it and then he also goes i challenge z to a dick measuring contest literally a dick measuring contest like he says something like that and i'm dude he says something like that i'm like oh my god you he's absolute try her to me don't don't like it it says whether there's funny tweet from parker i think he's parker thompson on twitter he he he replied to that he goes okay so for those keep it score at home caleb brought a bought a product for forty four billion and then z built the same product for a thousand times less is stealing all of his users like an absolute chad it is god willing about to choke them out in ninety seconds of steel cage soon so that's what a cut means now i think it's great man z is just looking to great on this alright so but threads you have on here that they grew to seventy million it's actually hundred it's a hundred so they grew to a hundred million users in a week so we'll we'll deliver the bull case first so the bull case is this will and and the will threads win argument so the bull case is we're five days in and they've reached a hundred million users making it the fastest growing product of all time okay instagram has about a point and a half users they seem to be converting over pretty quickly to this we already got a hundred million on the platform if twenty percent of instagram users come board it's now bigger than twitter so twenty percent conversion from from instagram is what they're gonna need they've done you know like out of a five percent or something like that i of a public math something like five percent so far in five days the next reason that this is bullish is instagram and doug doug shared that on threads he he said we just hit a hundred million and he said we've not even really promoted it yeah yeah we haven't done our promotions yeah which is yes nice it's also really cool that he's revealing some of the stuff yeah yeah he's really active on it right nice part victory lap part like community engagement which is which is cool and he tweeted for the first time in like fifteen years right on the day of launch which is also nice and it was like the meme of the three spider man's pointing and two is pretty was great he's he you know he's in on the joke whoever he hired like his nephew or whoever like just is like you know give me there give me your app give me your phone i'm gonna make you likable like hey instead of like fighting it just post to meme it's cool don't worry but he needs a verb so there's no verb what what do you say you threaded it be you posted it yeah you know what i mean you know with threading i don't know what's going on so the the interesting part is i go on threads and i expect to see the same sorts of people on as i do on twitter and there's some but there's a whole new market of people who were basically never on twitter just didn't like twitter didn't work for them so you know you get a whole new set of people that are gonna use threads that weren't they don't have to switch off of twitter or there's just new people to a twitter like behavior so it can basically beat twitter without getting people to switch because it's expanding the market twitter is i don't know if you know this twitter is basically the most abandoned product i think ever so more than a billion people have signed up for twitter or tried twitter and then been like no don't get it i'm good just yeah that's not for me and i the big question the like sort of like the hundred billion dollar two hundred billion dollar question is is that because the idea of twitter doesn't appeal to that many people or that twitter's execution was not good enough to hook those people and if it's the idea then those same people who try threads will eventually bounce because they're like they're just people who like to look at pictures and videos they don't wanna write text and and read random mass text messages from different people so if it's the idea to twitter safe all these people will try it and they'll bounce but if it was the execution if it was that twitter didn't hook them properly then they're screwed because if there's one thing that that the instagram and and facebook teams are gonna do is they're gonna to you you could already see it in the small things that they're doing with they're like yeah we're just gonna make like kind of like the feed work better and blocking and muting and like all of like all of the stuff we're just gonna do the stuff good the stuff that they've been doing for twenty years which is like hey when somebody signs up let's just make it really easy for them to find like the friends are interesting people for them and like let's just make this this feed killer like this is like this algorithm killer where you just wanna keep scrolling stuff that twitter never really did like if you go look at twitter's ad product like have you ever run twitter ads yeah so this is what i gonna say this is another bit bulk case which is if you if if you've never run ads before and you go and talk to anyone who has run any ads facebook is always in the top two or three parts of the conversation so normally it's number one it's usually the best platform i've spent maybe ten plus million dollars of my own like me actually running ads facebook is always number one twitter is never part of the conversation how do i don't know if i don't even know if it's any i don't know if it's like that anymore because i haven't run ads on far really it's on it now so i'm running ads on it literally right now and it works but the ad platform is so trash compared to facebook and google's ad platform which is so surprising because that's how they make money you would think they're highly incentivized to do so anyways i guess my my bigger point is not really about who's whose ad platform is gonna be better it's just the that it's gonna be execution on all the details on on getting people linked up with the right people making the feed super interesting and real you you know and and handling spam better and abuse better and all the things that twitter has struggled with over over the years so the poll cases that basically this hundred million users if they convert some of instagram people they'll be bigger than twitter they don't even need people from twitter to switch they can just bring net new people to the market and they can just continue to promote this across instagram and whatsapp so that's the bold case now i'm gonna switch to the to the bear case oh also part of the bull case twitter shoot itself in the foot a lot so elon does a lot of dumb shit pisses is a lot of people off he's basically pushing to like basically put a pay wall where like you have to pay dollars a month in order to like have your shit be seen in the in the feed so that's basically introducing friction he added the tweet limit not long ago which introduces friction because oh you know he's been insane no more tweets for you cut off like the ability to post tweets and have them in bed in other places because he was like we're getting scrapped too much so he you basically put a login wall in front of the content like he's adding friction everywhere so these are these are foot faults these are you know nobody this is not threads killing you this is you killing you and so that's that's part of the bull case now here's the bear case why this won't work if i was sorry you why this won't work here's what i would say i'd say hey named the last facebook standalone product that just worked not one that they bought but one that they made and that's where there's really a kind of a graveyard of poke and a bunch of these other apps that they tried to create try to create a tiktok competitor didn't work trying to create a snapchat competitor didn't work so there is a graveyard of these things the only things that have worked have been things that they put into the instagram app like stories and reels because people are hooked on instagram so the standalone app thing hasn't really worked and this is a standalone app the next problem just because a hundred million people try it it doesn't mean they're actually gonna stick there's gonna be massive churn just like there is when have you gone back to you this yeah i i i open it up right now but like i'm not like hooked on it completely myself yet are you i'm not hooked yet no i'm definitely not i'm a pretty on twitter but i've also built up like a big following plus a bunch of people that i follow so my feed is more interesting on twitter it's a curated for ten years i was gonna say we might be the one percent at the one per percent because we make a living in part because of twitter and so we could be like there could be a part of it of like oh shit i don't wanna use this other thing because i already have this one thing that's working and this thing is just kinda like can cannibal it so i can't tell if there's that bias there or or what it is but no i'm not hooked yet but i am opening it maybe once a day maybe once every two days i am a little bit like shit i don't want another thing to have to use right but i am happy that it's tech space because that's where i excel because you know i'm a missouri six but like but i'm on my word nine yeah i i don't want i'm not like i'm not i don't i got the i got a good face for twitter so like i prefer that i but yeah we we're the outliers because both of us have i know for the other we probably have almost almost a million followers together on on twitter and so going now i go to threads i have three thousand followers or something i'm starting from scratch again and you know i'm like that guy who i moved to san francisco and i bought a house and i just redid my lawn and then everybody started moving and they started raising the prices and i'm like i'm i'm dug in i'm like yeah i'm doug in i i already paid for the reno you know like i i guess i'm just here what everyone else is is choosing places that might be a better fit so so you know we we might be the wrong person there here's the other reasons that twitter might win twitter after the churn you know threads might have twenty million or thirty million active users compared to twitter's three hundred million right so i think there's gonna be so much churn that this hundred million number is a bit of fool gold the next thing twitter has key content so it has news it has sports so it's got the journalist it's got the athletes it's got the the people that cover the nba and nfl like it's got famous people it's case they got like is key like rapid breaking news and influential content thread is gonna have new content but like the type of person who's being on ig may not be the right type of person for what works in this text medium we don't tb there's tb on that the next thing threads is just a straight up clone there are no product improvements and in fact there's some big drawbacks like they don't have dms they don't have like you know dude i get dms i've been getting dms i think i i don't know what deal there's no inbox people have been messaging me let me pull it up but i think they're at mentioning you there's there's definitely no no maybe that's what it is i don't even know how to use it yet yeah it's it's a it's a mention but it looks like a dm like the the the thing looks like a dm alright yeah you're right so it's just it they closed the app they left some things out now that might that might make it better but for the most part i would say the product strategy like if you printed out the roadmap it's like here's some features then you turn the page and it just says not elon musk i'm not twitter right like it's just basically here's not twitter and like this bunch who don't like you don't like twitter and they'll just try this out so i don't know if that's a great long term product strategy by the way speaking of mediums and leaving things out do you use twitter on your phone or desktop both yeah i mostly use it on desktop and i used the thread app and i was like hey when's when i need a desktop thing and that's why i prefer typing on it and people were like call me boomer and shit and apparently that is that's something boomer shit dude that's some boomer shit i guess but i hate using it on my phone i wanna use it on my computer so i could scroll through and clicks shit yeah that's like if a guy knocks on the bathroom stalls like hey i gotta take a piss sitting down and you're like what and like i it's not illegal to do what you're saying but certainly not acceptable and that's yeah you're more of a you're what are you more of a pee with your shorts on your ankle type of guy will get enough so so you're your desktop thing it's okay to use desktop but let's not let's not get out of i think most i not most i think a ton of people do that man i'm telling you the older guys i guess i'm old now but i i need that i i need we should appeal to as a social media platform the older guys yeah look call it khaki alright so here's here's a couple of other things which is the best creators on twitter so the people who have basically in a ten fifteen year period proven that they're really good at creating text based content now have a big following and don't really wanna start over from scratch on on instagram k mig yeah so so i think those are some of the some of the downsides of this but i do think you know once you take into account the bold and the bear case it's prediction time how do you think that this plays out let's do the interesting nuggets really quick if it doesn't work out nikita our friend nikita who is worked at meta and did all the social stuff what did he say he was basically like you know this thing's gonna be at a hundred million users soon and if it fails after that that will sort of officially make it the biggest fail in social app history at that point which i think i don't think that maybe really means anything to be honest i think the truth is i think it's gonna end up closer to the bowl than it is the bear i think it will it will more work than it does fail i don't think elon would ever sell twitter out of like pride reasons but i think it will if it run by a billionaire i think it would effectively put it out of business for the ad ad purposes i think it's gonna work i don't know if it will overtake but i think it's gonna work so good that it's gonna cannibal twitter and it's they're gonna be at least equal the ceo of cloudflare tweeted out a a chart i don't know if you saw this twitter traffic because cloudflare has like kind know they run like that's fucked down right in some way and yeah i don't know i don't know maybe they haven't paid their bill or maybe there's it's like a doctor and that's like a doctor like revealing like like your illnesses does it it's like it's like these two guys are making fun of each other it's like actually this guy his cholesterol is way worse than yours right yeah so like if you wanna beat them up but kick him in the left knee he he did that basically he tweeted out showing that this the twitter down like five percent and overall traffic so far this week from from thread so it's like you know he said like it's plummeting or something like that like dropping off a cliff which is like pretty dramatic for i don't know if five percent i wouldn't call plummeting but that's weird that he shared that that's super weird yeah it's gonna be closer to the bowl i and what whenever i've learned nikki nikita actually would always joke about this he would say never ever ever bet against z and i've heard so many people say that what i bet against elon for sure not often not often i think that he he follows through a lot he just been closer to death so many times and i don't think zac entirely has i just think that zuckerberg when it comes to this field like a consumer social i just think that he's i would not bet against that person yeah exactly i think that's the that's the rub here i think that it's not z for elon mono y mono like yeah know like in the same way that in the cage z will probably win because he trains he's been training ji for like you know a couple of years so that's it gives him a little head start in the same way that z probably could not build a rocket company or a car company you're planning you can even build oc like you can even like do that work it's still pretty well to be honest it's doing okay but i think that they're gonna miss they're not gonna be like the one perhaps we'll see but i guess like it it's his domain the so the social app thing is is their domain they have instagram i think i'm with you i where i do think threads will be bigger than twitter i don't think it kills twitter i just think it sort of stunt whatever slow growth that twitter has it just stunt it even further and twitter remains this kind of niche this basically this thing that has really strong appeal to a niche and i think that threads becomes the more mainstream version of it like i think it becomes the more palatable just cool interesting thing in the same in the same way that like this happens a lot with music or with tv shows or with with stuff like that where something has its time and then the new thing comes out and it just has like a little more mainstream appeal and it just becomes the default and the other thing doesn't die doesn't go away necessarily but i do think that if you fast forward two years or you know eighteen to twenty four months i think it's pretty i think my bet would be threads is bigger than twitter and twitter basically has now like a a ceiling on its head that it's bumping into it can never really grow from there it might get better at monetizing those people or preventing them from switching but the dominant place for that will be will be threads which is insane to me it seemed impossible like to d in a social network like twelve months ago there's this cultural shift with young people where there's so much more kind and nicer than our generation at when we were that age and you see that on tiktok so if you go to tiktok and you look at the comments people are so much more positive they're still something they got more positive that's tiktok is amazing at sorting comments and hiding comments whatever whatever that is okay maybe maybe because all you build kindness and jokes and then you're like that's how i'm supposed to behave here and twitter you that out it builds a culture whereas i on twitter i post something and i get made fun of so much sometimes and i always click on the accounts and it's clearly like a bot or i don't know what it is but there's this huge underground culture i i no idea what how this is happening of people who all they do is make fun of make fun of people and i always it it shows it to me do you get that when people or or make fun of you all it yeah yeah because it just shows you everything twitter says it shows you everything you said something here's what they said back and guess what always gonna be people that either disagree argue or just save me and shit to you that's like you know just that's actually the way the world works the best companies have figured out how how to algorithm like suppress that behavior yes and one of the day i opened up threads it was like gary v saying like i hope you all have such a wonderful day and it was like they like seated it with like these positive people and it like created this weird culture where it seems significantly more positive so of threads i good morning y'all yeah i ten or i have like pop saying like i hope you have a wonderful day and get after it like it's just so much and i have saw hill already popping it up with my shit it's like all positivity whereas twitter it's way more negative and honestly it it does wear me out and by the way z has sorta of said this in his in his slur where he's like yeah that's part of our key strategy he's like he's like i always thought there should be a a a sort of like this town square conversation public conversation type of product that gets to a billion users twitter for some reason never figured it out we're gonna do our best and then people were like you know oh i noticed that this the place is like you know more kind or sort of like you know much more positive energy right now and he goes yeah i think that's really important that's what we're gonna you know that's something we're gonna really focus on and try to get right i don't think that twitter ever got that right some of these features like setting the culture in that way are invisible they're not like now you could do live video now you could do twitter spaces it's not a feature that you see it's almost what you don't see that's the feature i think that facebook and instagram have a lot of experience fighting abuse spam hateful content it's not gonna be no it's not just gonna be gone like the whatever that's fine i i get that but i think they're gonna do a better job of it in the same way that like you remember it used to be a common thing people say which is like if you ever wanna see sort of hell on earth go to the youtube comments like youtube comments were considered like an actual ces pool and now if you go to a popular youtube video the comments are often like they add to the joke they're funny and yeah they're positive and i don't know what they did over time but over time they fix that problem which was that the youtube comments were like you know where where you know hope goes to die and now oh it's good it's part of the experience and sure there's some spam or there's still obviously like the one off thing but it's nowhere near where it was like in the early days i went out to dinner last night i'm in williamsburg i went out to dinner last night and i the you know williamsburg everything's tight in new york and i sat next to the guy who worked at meta on the threads team and i'm not gonna reveal a lot because i don't wanna write this guy out but me and sarah at the dinner and like i texted her i was like just let's just not talk and we just listened to this guy we just listened to this guy talk for two hours about launch week and like what it was like and he was like it was the most exciting time of my career this guy was so bought in to like the threads movement he even was talking about how much money he was making it was crazy man i was just at that dish what'd you hear you know to say the person of tell us everything it was it was seven figures a year it was seven figure in this guy and i like i feel like i know all about this guy i no worries from i or at least i know where moved from i heard the very the very typical this is so funny you hear people say this all the time when they first moved new york or when they're like tech guys they say san francisco was all about what did you built lately new york it's all about how much money do you make you know you're reminded every time about how important money is san francisco is it's all about what you built like that's like such a you're saying it in a positive way it's all you there this the guy he was was asking about go new he's refreshing that my pay stub delivers but he was just talking about like he was like the launch and he was just saying like how the morale the company is really high and now everyone was pumped which is which is something facebook needed because it was pretty shitty for a long time with all the negative p then he was just talking all about like the launch and like what they were doing it was so fascinating where just sit there i'm shocked that he didn't like catch the hit that i was just like listening into the soul tower conversation i just heard everything hey there's one thing that facebook engineers don't have a lot of awareness dude i don't care hear notice that you weren't talking to your wife you ever go out to dinner and like if you're with like a business associate or like a a a successful friend and you talk about money you're talking about like you know like wanna buy this house it costs us much money or like this is what i'm earning what do you think i should do with whatever we you talk about these sensitive topics whenever the waitress or waiter comes over i always quit talking about that because i'm like that's embarrassing it's tacky they didn't get that hit and so i remember that i'm talking about i remember them they they said the seven figure thing it's like yeah it's not that big video deal you just go get like a director or a start and get you know a million dollar package and and that's okay but like are you really doing anything meaningful right as the woman was like waiting to see if they wanted dessert yeah and i remember seeing that i was like oh i hate that that is so fucking embarrassing and obnoxious you gotta shut up at that point that's when you you know you're like you gotta lower your voice you gotta whisper hell you know what i mean like that that's what you're supposed to do in that scenario but these guys did not catch that hit i hate that yeah yeah it's a little piece that dies inside every time do you know who sucks at that is whenever i'm with our friends sue sue is horrible at that is gonna talk about shit yes i'll talk about like you know about like what he's investing in so loudly and i'm like dude shut the fuck this is embarrassing everyone's looking over don't don't use that word million please i haven't more of this conversation i haven't see that but i've i have another friend that does it like crazy and then i'll be like i'm like kicking him onto to the table and i was like what why are you kicking me i'm like dude friend that we took to this place in san francisco that i guess has like the best hot chocolate if he likes hot chocolates or like dude you're a little baby for liking hot chocolate first of all but if you are a baby the likes hot chocolate you gotta go to this place has the best hot chocolate so we go sits at the bar bartender tender comes up or whatever like the the table whatever and it's like hey this guy loves hot chocolate and we told them him this is the best spot so we had to he had to try and he's like the waiter there was like what are you for yeah he's like cool yeah yeah let me bring you on so he brings one out guy takes a sip immediately gives like an audible like and but and then you it doesn't like it and so i we're like oh you know whatever okay guess it's not i don't know just not your your way your your type and so he just puts he just he puts it down right so it's sitting in front of him waiter walks five and he just ship like pushes it forward towards the guy almost like he's pushing his chips all in at like a poker table and the guy's like oh are you are you done and he's to get didn't like it he just no it's not very good oh my god that's so embarrassing accomplish here why are you doing this so i literally just fall off my stool and crawl away and die and you know that had to deal with this interaction but it was terrible i had a friend we went out and got dinner and afterwards they gave us coffee and we wanna decaf and the next day we texted it back and forth we're like hey you stay up all night last night and they was yeah like i think they gave us regular coffee he's like i gotta call them i gotta call them and let them know and and he was like consistent i he's like i call them it's so we like call them i'm like dude what what's what are you doing we're we're on vacation like we're visiting like what that's such a weird it was such a larry david move to like call someone to tell them you made a mistake last night you gave us aroma coffee instead of d decaf and i those types of people are very challenging for beer david if it does it it's like likable and adorable and when anybody else in real life does it it's just hate my my mother lives has a version of that where any of anytime we're complaining about something her go to is not even like tell them and call them she's like call the news so title five date they will investigate this and i like know it's really not dude and i can't stand that really about what's gonna happen here i ordered a steak before they've brought me pesto chicken pizza and i won't say a word i'm like yeah whatever dude i can eat that i gotta tell you the story i can't decide i wanted to do a segment called l of the week because i think we sometimes brag a lot on here if we say you know how we're so great and all these ways i think it'd be nice to share a big l that we took but i gotta be honest this might actually be a dub this might not even be an l because the experience was so cool was it alright so i go i'm feeling i i'm doing something i'm working whatever and i'm feeling hungry while i i was driving back from an errand and i'm like i'm hungry i'm just gonna pay up some food real quick so i go to subway i'll get a sandwich and i go to subway i walk in there's like five people in lines it's only one guy working and it's a black guy there's this a white guy checking out and i'm like thinking about what sandwich i'm gonna get and i kinda decide i noticed that that guy still checking out and i look over and i'm like what's taking this guy forever and these guys are talking about like six hundred six south africa he's like yeah and they're talking about africa and i'm a race demo race relations and they're just talking and like zero like i'm happy that there's whatever no racism on earth but i'd really like a sandwich right now and so with the four people with that marinara yay yeah red as the color of my my meatball that i like right now and so they're just talking and then they fucking they hug and i'm like what's going on right now and with they hug i lose it i leave i walk out i'm like i'm hungry than ever because i've just killed nine minutes here exclusively about a sandwich and i got teas there's no sandwich coming right next to the subway is a taco bell and i make a business decision i say it is i guess it is what it is i'm going to taco bell today haven't been a taco bell like thirteen years go to taco bell so i walk in to taco bell and i'm in line and if you could always i have this theory about places which is you could see your future when you go into a place because it's you're gonna if you go to place regularly enough you're gonna start looking like the people that that are in that place so sometimes i go to it like fitness class and i'll look around and be like alright if these people who are like the clear regulars here don't look the way i wanna look i'm just gonna leave now because this is this is not a good path right take a a good luck yeah would you what would you say taco about like a bunch of like tweed bird shirts this so i like going to take first everybody and taco about was under seventeen so i was like oh i get it the body can like still tolerate this i'm the only guy in that's thirties at this place i'm and there's one guy sitting there and he's probably like twenty eight and he sit down and it's just him and he's got a feast in front of them him like this guy he he was like hey o chef's choice bring it all out so he's casa at taco bell and he's sitting there az eating up a storm and there's only me these three team girls who are in front of me ordering and then this guy and it's kind of quiet and taco bell and i'm standing in line and this guy pulls a move that i oh i adam of was still stunned just thinking about this he's sitting there and taco bell eating his feast and he just rips the loudest fork horrible and we all look over i was like wow so embarrassing this guy just fart loud to like wow and it was almost like he's sitting on one those benches it like echo it was like this crazy auditory experience and i look at the guy he just stares back at all of us a's just raises his eyebrows i was like what we're all here you're awesome here at three pm on a tuesday and that is what it is and this guy did not back down he did have an hour shame he offered us and was just literally was like what i was like nothing i guess just carry on you're right we're all equals here the bottom it just you just got dutch oven by taco bell guy so i it was like an ally token and a big dough for this guy and i an experience i share with here did that happen this is like five days ago sitting not the story there's no one else i can really tell like i started to tell the story to my wife issues was like you went to taco bell and i was like you missing the point of the whole story and i didn't even get to the good part and i just thought you should have fart it back adam it was a headwind one in the chamber i didn't have mean he really just like laid it down right there in front of us and what did the girls said anyway the eye contact nobody said anything we all looked to laugh to him and then we just got stunned by his bra bottle holy shit biggest power memory that's the best yeah that was the food at least horrible honestly the food to taco bell is phenomenal i'd like to to taco bell is great it it is a great taste they got like the dominion menu i mean first of the innovation you've been to a taco about like you know you taco about used to be tacos it's not like it's like you this is just the same shift burritos that's become a taco and i it's a taco inside of burrito and it's like how's does the taco inside the burrito you know i guess we call it a a cheesy crunch and then they had like this thing called the volcano right now and i was like i guess give me the volcano i because i didn't know what to do there i was i don't really understand what's happening i'm still still reeling from what's just happened a few minutes ago and i i got the volcano thing it was great it's fantastic you should've brought that african guy over to get it let him sniff up america let him see when it was this is what we're a about bro come peace loving avenue that hugs shit that's real not the usual experience this this is the reason is why we're the world war backs back to back champions these guys like that salt the earth they don't make up like that like that anymore can you imagine a european doing that impossible no awesome no kind this from singapore never get arrested for that at singapore that's yeah that's like that's like five to twenty in singapore there's not a chance so sean i've got a funny story so we have sam evans today i'll do a little bit of an intro but about three or four years ago i used to see sam's ads everywhere and it was basically him in a bright blue blazer in his fancy apartment overlooking manhattan and there was a little bit of hate in me and there was a little bit of you had slick back hair too i remember yeah slick my hair yeah and for some reason he pissed me off and i wrote like on one of the ads like you're full of shit or something like that you did a hate comment i did a hate comment and it's sat it'd be for years and i talked to my friends who eventually bought some of its products and they're like oh no it's awesome we loved it and i started learning more and i was like i think i was wrong and so i sent sam this message i think eighteen or twenty four months ago and i was like i'm sorry and that was for some reason that one comment it bothered me and eventually i saw sam four weeks ago at a party at sophia party and i talked to him and my wife and i talked to him for like an hour and i was like you're you're one of the more fascinating people that i've ever spoke to and i was like did you get that email right i apologize instead got it so that's kinda like how we got here but sam how do you describe yourself you had consulting dot com which was like a big information business but you have a new thing you wanna you wanna tell us how you described yourself sure i'm a entrepreneur and i have a software company called school i'm ceo of that it's like a community platform for creators you're you're kind of you're selling yourself there what do you want me to say the reason why i like to it out with you is sean he reminds me of jack smith so much like it's the same type of like yep but the funny thing is like jack you're right there's like definitely like a an echo of jack there but jack i almost for like jack picked business models that suited his like personality and his like way of thinking whereas sam the funny thing is that when i discovered you likes hair i saw this sort of like outgoing persona it's like guy who's looking at a recording a selfie video of himself in his fancy apartment telling me something it's sort of like oh this guy thinks he's some hotshot business guy whatever and now you talk now and i'm like this guy owns a surf shop or something why is this guy like in the like the most zen zen mode almost introverted to an extent isn't that strange was that strange for you to have like a very public persona even though you clearly are actually more of a of a of a laid back maybe more introverted guy yeah i think that's why it rubbed people the wrong way like sam because you know that's kind of the thing that i didn't like about that business like if you're selling training or coaching or whatever it's you have to be very out there you have to make content of yourself you have to continuously promote yourself right and i was always very uncomfortable doing that and i guess i i used like the new york compartment and the blue suit as like a a character yeah like at a character or like a crutch to help me you know what i mean yeah and it worked you built consulting dot com which was like a the way i'll describe it is like sort of like training mastermind courses type of thing where you would teach people how to start their own consulting business and people would pay you few thousand dollars and you you put a bunch of free content then that would get people sort of in the funnel and then eventually they pay a couple thousand dollars to learn how to start down consulting business and from what i understand like you scaled it up to about thirty million dollars a year at one point out sort of at the peak on on the revenue side before being like this is too much and too crazy and with too many people too little profits we're pushing like you know the boundary too much you sort of scaled it back down to a more manageable level where the revenue went down but the profits went you know up or the same and and you had less headache so it definitely worked did you get where'd did you get the idea for that were you just like in a basement watching ty lopez videos being like okay i understand i could do this now or like we're why did you decide to even do that you mean like cell courses cell courses in the way that you sold them which was just like a really heavy paid ad strategy with you as this character or this persona the face of it very internet marketing yeah i wanted to start moving business i used to have a job this is going back like twelve years and i used to watch this this interview site called mixer g do you guys remember that yeah yeah yeah we love andrew yeah and i watched the an interview one day and this guy was saying that he was gonna show he had a software company his name was dane maxwell and then he said he was gonna teach some other people how to start a software company and that was my first experience of being in a course he launched a course that was called back then the software round table and i learned how to start a software company in that and started a software company it was called snap and inspect and so i first experienced being in a course like from the student side and through that experience i i'm had a successful software company and then i was like the star student of that of that software round table foundation thing so then i did and he made me do an interview on mixer g this is back when i was very young and then a bunch of people started emailing me and saying could i they wanted to pay me so i could help them with their software company and i would just sell like six one hour skype calls for one thousand dollars and then very quickly i ran out of time to sell i sold so many of these packages and i just noticed that i was repeating myself on these calls like a lot and i was like oh this this could be a course everyone's like struggling with the same problems and i've run out of time right so the next guy i took through this six one hour calls i recorded the calls and then i put them in a drop folder and then the people that wanted to buy my coaching and from that point on i said i don't have any time left but i've got like a course that you can buy for the same price and i would just sell it for one thousand dollars and give them a login in to the drop off and they would watch their recordings in there and they liked it and they didn't ask for their money back and just like and that's where it started and then when i sold more and more of those i was like whoa this is i should put some more effort into this so i did and then i wondered how can i sell more of this instead of just waiting for people to come to me from my mixer g interview and ask me over email so that's when i started learning about like internet marketing and then i remember the people back then were like frank and who else there was like ram remit safety there was this guy called clay collins do you remember this era yep of like yeah and so i just i learned how to market from that world like that kinda underground internet marketing world and then my course business started to do so good it quickly overt took the the profit of my software company and i just wasn't very passionate about property management which was the niche that my software product was for was that i called snap inspect yeah it still exists it's snap and inspect dot com and i just wasn't passionate about the niche so i sold my shares of snap and spec to my c cofounder and didn't just went all in on the course business and that's what eventually became consulting dot com and in the end i was making courses showing people how to make courses i just fell in love with the craft of finding a group of people that you care about and solving their problems and then sharing the solutions with them and turning that into a business how did you get the domain consulting dot com because that's a great domain i went to the url and it was there was nothing on it and then i used like toolbox to find out like who owned it and then i just sent him an email and i said don't wanna sell it and he said yes how much you paid for that one that one was three hundred thousand just in the the ten minutes that you've just given that spiel and tell the background and then the hour that i've hung out with you you have this trait that i love that certain people have where in your brain i could you're the type of person that you see a challenge and you don't think of it like a lot of people think of it as a an emotional thing but it's a very logical and you're like this is a puzzle i'm gonna figure out this math equation and that gives you joy at least it seems like it with the marketing thing it seems like the same thing where you're like if i wear this jacket that will pop off in a thumbnail and that's important for a higher click rate and it's like you just read tons of books and you put together like an algorithm on what to do and it and that's why it it didn't seem entirely authentic that that was who you were but it seems like you were just playing a game that you wanted to win is that how you went about it and who did you what interesting people did you learn the the the algorithm from that aren't entirely popular or that are like some strange resources i guess i just looked at the people who are doing quote well like b bishop and marie fo this is back then and i knew i noticed that they had like a if you thought of their name you could quickly assign like a couple of attributes to them they had like a brand essentially and i was like this kid from new zealand teaching people how to start a business and so i was like whatever it is it needs to if when people see my video they instantly need to think of money basically and my main market is america and new york is like so iconic it's like the money place right so that was why i went to new york and why i found an apartment with a view like that i heard a rumor that that apartment is almost like exactly the same apartment as something from it was at waffle wall street or one of those like iconic money movies where they like hang a guy over the the balcony i heard that it that you wanted that apartment for that reason is that true it isn't true i wanted the apartment because they had a really cool view but then we were watching that movie and we had to pause it and be like wait a second is that this building and we realized it's not the same building but it must be one of the five in that area that are all very close to each other got it and and so you you started doing this now i'm curious a lot of the names you mentioned i never hear about those people anymore you know i've i remember frank ke i remember even pagan than some of these guys that you know you can kinda go study their their content their funnels but they're not around anymore or if they are like i don't know where they are they're not they don't seem to be like crushing it anymore like they used to am i wrong are they just out there crushing and i just don't see him for some reason or why do you think that they very few kind of sustained or do they just get so rich they quit or are they like locked into one mode and they didn't evolve with the times what do you think happened i think things have changed a lot and a lot of people didn't adapt but also i think some people just got they're just not going as hard or they might have got burned out and they're just relaxing a little bit probably a combination of all of those things how how big were some of those old school marketers they're they're old told to me how big were some of their businesses you never know like you never it's always so interesting i i i i have no idea because they they they seems to they weren't real businesses in a way because they would make a a ton of money on a launch right but then that product would kind of go away and then they might do another launch in six months and it was all based on this launch model and these launches would pull big numbers like millions of dollars but and i'm sure there was a lot of profit in that too but they weren't like these products that were evergreen that could be sold continuously and they didn't have a team and they weren't like contributing to this body of work they weren't building on top of what they built yesterday essentially you had this interesting video where yeah i the we we were talking about jack jackson one of my best buddies and he was on the last episode and you guys are very similar but on this video you opened it up and you just looked at the camera and you go i'm back and apparently like the story of the video was consulting dot com consulting got got to like thirty million in revenue and you'd hired dozens of people fancy offices you hated it you basically scale it down i think you called it a band i think it was like five or six people you were like we're gonna do ten million in revenue five million in profit everyone gets to share the profit what was like the peak of the consulting business and then where was it when you sold it sure so the peak was it must have been around like two thousand and seventeen or two thousand eighteen and it was doing thirty six million a year in revenue that profit wise was probably only like five million on that most of it was was expenses and we had about fifty people and we were spending like two million a month on ads and it was just everything was breaking i hired everyone way too fast and it was heavily dependent on ads which i didn't like i was reading this book on my honeymoon in to long in mexico and it's it's called lean thinking and apparently it's like jeff bezos favorite book which just why i was reading it and in there they talk about how you should optimize a business based on customer based on value the way a customer experience is it right and you should analyze like the head count how many people are like working on how many people are actually contributing to value the customer would experience and your head count and then your your money flows so like how are you allocating the capital where is all the money being spent and does the customer experience value from that and then your time and attention and energy right so you're just analyzing all of these flows and i realized that all of our time money attention and head count was on ads and that customers did not think ads were valuable in fact they thought what you did it actually pissed them off right so i was like oh man i've really screwed this one up and i was like everything should be focused on the customer and so i went back after that vacation and realized that i basically had to start again and i so i just started restructuring that company i realized that organic content was really good because customers find that valuable right like a good youtube channel good email newsletter so i was like we should do that and then if we do that we don't need to do ads and then i was like everyone on the team should be contributing value to like the customer they should be doing support or they should be account management for mastermind clients they should be customer facing in some way and all of my time and attention and energy should be thinking about the customer's problems instead of advertising problems right and so i just with that kind of mental model i just started restructuring the whole company and then so like you you've talked about consulting a a bunch on other pods and but the story is that you eventually and we can go back to it you eventually sold it but your new company school it's whenever i was texting to you it always auto stool s k o o l you were telling me you didn't exactly say it this way but i i read it this way you were telling me that you you're like we're not taking any funding or at least you're not anytime soon because you self funded it with ten million and you're like i'm hiring the best people so like went from like this like internet marketing type of culture to start up it first of all is that true and second was that number right ten millions that you you're going in on this is true and why the shift from like the startup up where you like have hired all the like you're you're running things very silicon valley es versus what i imagine in my head a lot of internet marketers are not like well i started in software remember the first company i ever did was snap back so i've always had a love for software the problem back then though was i didn't love my market like property managers and we were constantly have limited by our money you know software engine engineers are expensive subscription revenue has a cash flow trough in it and so we were limited by money and i didn't love my market but i did love software and i also hated like having to market i swore i was never gonna touch software again unless it had network effects because i wanted it to grow itself basically like a platform instead of software tool so then i fell in love with courses and that the beauty of that was like i was able to save a lot of money and then i came back to software because i now was building software for the market that i loved which was like online creators and i had money this time so i wouldn't be limited by that i could get the best engineers and not cut corners on anything and take a more long term view and this was a platform opportunity instead of like a software tool so we didn't have to have a marketing or sales team and we had no like c and how is this growing because i see the traffic is like i don't know eight million visits a month or something and insane like that it looks like you had an affiliate program here if you're not running marketing where's is the growth coming from because i get that there's network effects that's way more than like circle doc so is it called circle that's way more than a lot of like high vc competitors the traffic i believe so don't know if the number right below than double circle yeah how are you getting so much traffic it's a community platform so once you start a community and you add some content to it the first thing you do is you invite members right and then what happens is roughly one percent of members create their own community so they're like oh this platform is cool i wanna make one of these and then they create their own and then they invite their members and then that there's a there's a loop there or a network effect when you were doing your content stuff your ads i had read stuff like you did to mention things like you we talked about like the apartment in the suit and like motorcycle in the middle of the room and stuff like that what were some interesting experiments that you ran that that do the work worked or didn't work that sort of taught you something about you know human psychology or the way that people's one gets people's attention what people what gets people interested what gets them hooked what are some learnings from all those different kind of content experiments you did when you were doing when you're making you know when you when your your content your face was the was the driver a lot of people just wanna make money like that one was annoying so like if you just put a jet in something or a fancy car or a new york apartment like it works so well that it's it's annoying because you're like do i have to do that aren't people just won't they just listen to the value of the idea but that's what i learned back then when i was doing those experiments i think now people are looking for like longer form real stuff that like a podcast podcast are really taking off right so i think the people that are doing a good job now is like what you guys are doing i think having a podcast and an email newsletter that's what i would do if i was starting again right now that those two work really well together we have this friend rebecca za who has tens of millions or maybe fifteen or something million youtube subscribers and she only launched it in like thousand seventeen not that long ago and i was like rebecca why'd did you get so big and she goes i took it like a job so like i got laid off or a quit i forget what happened with her other job and she goes this is now my thing so it was like a forty hour quick it's like this is all i'm doing and i was like doesn't everyone do that she said no shockingly no most of of of a lot of popular youtubers it starts as a side hobby even when they're like fairly big it's still not full time but she's like i just treated the some bitch like a company like i just ran at like a company and it worked out so i think they're like that focusing no no no chance she said some bitch no no chance you said some bitch i i added that that's a same part special maybe maybe i stuff that up maybe it was like you know i took this wonderful thing very seriously yeah yeah you've been you've been pretty good at focus i mean that's well why you've been self consulting dot com if it's like doing well you're not working it i mean you're you're about you seem like you're you're very very very focused on shit i mean just to go ten million on that on school is is that a was that a significant chunk for you to do that and was that like a verbal commitment like i'm willing to do up to x or did you literally wire into a bank account so that's now in the company that's being used for this company it's we're we're burning that that yeah that like i bought a house because you know i've got a wife and family so i've bought a house and i left some money in the personal account for like family and then i was there everything else i'm just i'm betting on this company so not not no other portfolio nothing how big do you think school gonna be that's hard to answer there's what i would like it to be which is what i've always wanted to build something that a billion people use how are you sleeping at night knowing that your home or a lot of your nut is in there that's a very stressful thing quite well at the moment because things are going really well you know the growth is compounding pretty fast and top tier email us every week i've had to just stop talking to them and a lot of people wanna give us money but we're not taking it and so i think the fact that a lot of people wanna give me money is allowed me to come to down quite a lot that i'm not that we're not gonna run out of money also just the growth is it profitable no it's not but deliberately so okay fair enough and where did you base the company is it remote or people in in america and new zealand where where where are your people everyone's an ally and san and do you like what we've when sam says he you remind who of jack smith one of the cool things that jack smith is that while he's clever and interesting on the business side he's also clever and weird and does crazy experiments also in his personal life whether it's like sort of bio hacking or lifestyle choice or not naming his child until she was one years old like whatever parent parenting everything he he takes sort of like a novel approach to each thing i'm curious are you weird in other areas of your life do you do anything that's sort of non standard that to you make sense when maybe to other people sounds a little strange i'm sure would you like to say any example since this is a podcast i mean i slept on a photon for like three years and i loved it and then when my wife got pregnant she she made me give it up but i really miss that photon you know what japanese photon yeah i loved that thing i just like to keep things very simple and minimal like i only have one pair of shoes and i only have like the same type of socks and the same kind of like underwear in the same t shirts and then like three wall jumpers and that's all i have and then i have the same soap like this tea tree soap and i just have like twenty blocks of it and i i even take one with me when i travel because i only will like that so i like don't wear sunglasses because i think they're unnecessary and i just like to reduce things just to i like to find something that i think is good and then only use that and then just get a few different pairs of that and just keep things as simple and as minimal as humanly possible is your wife normal yes she is we were the reason why one of the things you said we were sitting around sean it was me sam i'm my wife sarah we were sitting around at this restaurant and sam you have you've got some strange energy in a very cool way you've got very strange and cool energy that i like i love people like you and we were just sitting around and the conversation kinda died and we were just sit we sat in silence for like three seconds i think and then you just said i delivered my baby and we were like we were like what with what and you could said my hands if we we're like hold on say this again and you're talking about how your wife she you're gonna be like a home delivery or something and the mid wife didn't make it in time and and you just did the day up thick you and you just did it and i remember thinking like the reason i love this guy is i don't think he understands like how like your manner your voice their this is they're so unique and strange in such an interesting way which i frankly love i love people like you because you're so unique and you're not vanilla do you realize that you're like that honestly not really because i don't i don't try to fit in and i don't try to like i don't even look at what other people are doing like i don't have social media at all and i never look at really what's going on or what's in the news or anything and i just do what i want so what do you do with that free time so let's say no social media no news for most people that's like four to five hours a day or something like that how do you reinvest that four to five hours a day where do you put it what what does give you energy or or what do you do for entertainment or what do you do to to unwind i mean all i really do is focus on school and that's mostly the product so i'm just obsessive about the product all the details of it and then i go home hang out with my wife in daughter and then i need two hours of like watching something to to unwind otherwise i can't sleep and so i'll i'll watch series like tv series and i like old stuff like things before technology because it's it's nice and slow and it helps me go to sleep but when you say you're obsessive what does that mean like do people like working with you like are are you the type of guy who like if something very small the footer is screwed up you freak out over that yeah i can see a pixel so if something's off like i'm like something's off over there and then i'll inspect it with chrome inspector and it will be one pixel so i can like i've i joke with the team that i can see a pixel and yeah i'll i'll go into those details like i designed schools interface in fig like the whole thing and to find a lot of like how their entire system works which is it's quite complex i knew you were like that because when consulting dot com first came out most courses don't didn't look the way your yours looked yours had this like you had this really cool thing of a it was like a caveman becoming a a person right is that what it was and then it was like a picture of the globe and it it looked like a software page it it looked very unique and i remember seeing the design of it and i thought that is incredibly unique and it stood out it made you feel more sophisticated than most other people in the space do you remember that page it might just kinda yeah accurately yeah what what you think when you made that that's what i like to do i i'd like to just spend a long time on the tiny details you know i've spent days trying to figure out the right pixel radius of a rounded corner for the for like a bus is that a feature or a bug like if somebody i worked with was spending days on a how how much the border radius should be on a button i would slap them i'd be like what are you doing this is not this doesn't matter and this is not gonna be like high impact so why are you doing this so you know is that a is it a good thing or is that a byproduct like maybe you do that in certain areas where it really works then ask i gotta live with the fact that i do it in these other areas where it doesn't matter at all yes so i i won't block anyone by doing that right like when we're building the thing like i'll be very fast and not the bottleneck of the team but then in my spare time i'm playing with things thinking about the next time we update the design system and i'm just tweaking little things in my that's what i do for fun so it's not like what i'm doing as might work kind of thing how do you how do you organize your day do you have like a are you like focused on one thing do you have like a morning like okay there's my to do list what what do how do you how do you create your day most of what i do i would say it's product strategy and design that's like where i spend all of my time just in those zones and we have got like three product teams at school so three full stack product teams with back in front end qa product manager designer right and they've got three maps that are all going in parallel and i need to think ahead of them like i've got a dream up like the whole product strategy and road map and everything and then i have to reverse the engineer into chunks break it down and then figure out which team should work on what thing and sequence it and then i've got to design the whole thing spear brief that team and stay a few development cycles ahead and so i'll either be designing something trying to figure out a priority talking to that engineering team or checking doing the final qa check before we push something into production i actually think that that that's totally the right way in my opinion that a lot of companies should run the reason they don't is because a that's really really hard so like you're the brain brainchild you have to like you probably know every single thing that's happening that's incredibly challenging for just about everyone number two it doesn't feel good to feel like a dictator it's like basically you're you you guys are a band and you're like the main you're you know you're the main you're the main guy you're celine dion and everyone else is the backup band that's what weird had reference but it is what it is you're billy joel i don't you're like that's where i went yeah that's the that's where we went you're sleepy yeah i don't know log here you're like the guy whereas we're at i don't know if i can recover from that whereas most startups it's like it's it's a lot more decentralized and things like that but with this type of product it seems like you're like the the the main person and there's a circle around you with shit going on is that right it it sounds fucking exhausting funny example of this was i remember sam when you were running the hustle and i was running my company and we would meet up every couple weeks as part of our like kinda founder mastermind my thing where we we would get together you know i was sort of drinking the silicon valley ko which was like autonomy and like give people empower your people and all these things and i was like you know preach it to my team like hey whoever got the best idea we're going with you you know jan you got an idea let's do it you know like let's make it happen and sam showed me i've made up with sam and sam shows me like a twelve page doc that he ripped wrote out for some new woman that he hired and he just go in the document says says welcome here's the things that you're going to do your job is to do this here's how you will do this step one do this tattoo to this and you wrote this like twenty big talk and was just like handed it to her and was like this is do not deviate from this i don't wanna hear i don't hear your your ideas of this and i asked you i was like why do this you're like because people fuck up and i just i need her i think this is the right way to do it and i just need her to do it this way no because that i whatever sam said i totally agree with that the problem is that it's fucking exhausted you know what i mean like it's really hard to do that for a long period of time it's not scalable yeah well it's kind of scalable yeah like the engineers i'm not telling them what to do like in terms of code right so and then i'm not even coming up with all the ideas for my own mind i spend a lot of my time looking at what our community wants so like going through our school community where people ask for stuff and share bugs and feedback then i'll talk to power users i always find who's spending the most time on the platform get a top one hundred just dm a few of them get on zoom talk just talk to them for hours about it and then i use the product myself and then i talk to the team too and so ideas come from all of these places but i'm like the filter and the the sorta and the prioritize it basically and then when i go to engineering i know what the feature should be but they they might push back on a lot of what i say based on how easy it is to implement with code they might be like oh do you really need to do it this way because that's gonna make the code messy or why don't you do it this way that would be way more simple for the system and i'll listen to that feedback and adjust the actual feature because i'm trying to like i'm trying to give the the users what they want but i'm also trying to keep the code clean and and i'm trying to build things fast too so i'm like how could we shrink the scope of this to make it so he could deliver something faster and and so it's not like i'm just dictating to everyone there's a lot of collaboration you know sean is something i've i've do you know that company jasper yeah have you talked to those guys is the founder name is dave or david sam first of all i'm on the website of consulting dot com dude i was gonna say for one if you go to like un splash i think it was called or what one of those like stock websites stock image websites for some reason dave is on the picture of so many stock pictures i used to use a picture of him and then i'm metal i'm like dude i use your face for a stock image signature on this like royalty for your website and number two he used to be part of consulting dot com and so jasper for listener like a i guess a billion dollar now company that does ai stuff with he part of your crew he was a he bought my course like many years ago and he was one of our like most successful students he used to sell coaching like training and stuff but then he he wanted to get into software so then he did this thing proof do you remember that that the pop yeah and then that turned into jasper and did i why did someone someone tell me to ask you what you think about ai why did they say that i think it's like massively over hype and somewhat like just unnecessary like i know about you guys but chat gp hasn't replaced my google usage i still use google every day and i found no real task for it honestly it's seen but the hype is extreme the hype cycle is there around like the growth and like well it's it's not there yet but i could see the of this so you're not bullish at all in the future of it no alright i'll take the other side sam anything else you wanna ask before we we wrap no i i appreciate you coming i find i wanna talk to you it again in another time i find you fascinating i think that you're an original thinker and i appreciate people like you thanks alright well that's that's the pod that's it i feel like i could rule to where to i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a days off on a go less travel never looking back