The Next Big Social Media Network Will Be On the Blockchain. Nader Al-Naji Tells Us Why.

and i was like wait a minute sean so you're telling me that there's a website that you invest money in you don't know who made it it doesn't work a lot of the times and you can't get the money out right and he's like yeah i was like oh okay got it just making sure where we're all to same paycheck yeah i feel like i could rule to world i know i could be what i want to put at all in and like a day's off on a travel never looking back what's up sean here we have sam and we got a guest his name as matter i'm said it right because it's matter like ladder but people know you as diamond if they've been following we did a section on the podcast i don't know how many months ago where i was like hey there's this thing that caught my eye it's called bit cloud and it's this crazy idea of a social network where it's almost like a robinhood hood meets twitter it's like everybody's got their every profile every person has their own coin and you can like invest in people and you could buy their coin and people's prices go up or down as they get more famous and i said you know there was a couple i said i i don't know if this gonna work but i do hope that someday there's a like a a decentralized social network so a social network that's not you know super top down controlled the way facebook is the way twitter is and this is the first credible attempt i i'd ever seen i had seen some other experiments but this is the first credible one where i said oh they have a growth hack and the growth hack is that when i saw my profile my profile was already created for me it was a clone of my twitter profile and i think it had like sixty thousand dollars sitting in the piggy bank and it just have claimed it verify your account like claim it and that money's yours and i said oh that's gonna work people are gonna respond to that kind of incentive sam did it too sam you had i don't know what fifty thousand dollars of your thing sam claimed it withdrew within a month or something like that he bounced out of there but so people will remember bi cloud you are the creator of bi cloud at the time you were an anonymous account only known as diamond hands now big cloud has been renamed to des so essentially that's you know the new brand and you've come out in the public and now you're doing podcast podcasts yeah that's where we are welcome to cloud awesome that's a great name i love that yeah man i mean so just for context sam and and sean thanks for that awesome intro man yeah i mean so since early twenty nineteen i've been working really on a blockchain that can power social social networks you know not just bit cloud but many other apps now they're actually over a hundred apps being built on the actual blockchain itself which we call decentralized social or ds and so bit cloud was actually just the first app that really we launched on the blockchain and so kind of after working on it for almost two years from early twenty nineteen we were like hey you know now let's kind of put all the features together that this blockchain can support into some kind of product and so that was bit cloud and it was really just a prototype and it was intended to kind of exercise and test a lot of the functionality but the one is like the storage and the indexing of post which is a very hard problem for for blockchain solved and i don't think anyone other than ds really has has has had a good solution to that but but yeah obviously we launched it so so yeah let me give a little look let me give a let me give a lay lay explanation this so sam i don't know if you do this but there are actually bunch of different types of of blockchain because the apps that you're building on top of them have different needs so like you know bitcoin has its blockchain and it's all it's trying to do is you know really store value be super secure it's it doesn't need to be the fastest because bitcoin is not about speed it's about security really above all else and then ethereum was like okay we're gonna make a blockchain that's more programmable it's gonna have maybe less security than big bitcoin because it's more programmable but it's gonna be able to do all these other things and then like these apps came out like on top of ethereum that we're like crypto kidd and tops shot which were basically like the first kind of like n projects that got big and they immediately like overwhelmed the ethereum network and so the guys who built nba top shot when they you know they were the same crew that built crypto cryptocurrencies so when they went out to build and be a top shot they actually made their own blockchain called flow and flow was optimized for the use case of trading at f t's and it can do higher volume and so they all have different trade offs and so what you're saying is you made a blockchain that was good at doing one thing which is social networks are basically about posting photos and videos and containing all that but today if you go try to a photo and a video on top of the bitcoin blockchain or ethereum blockchain it would be it's not made for that and so it would be either too big too slow to whatever just a render one like news feed so you guys built your own so is the name of the blockchain des and the app is is exactly pick up by the way sean it's really interesting it's actually just one app there's actually over a hundred now that are built on top of it so you could like actually see the same data yeah you say that but like does anybody use any of these apps like you know i got a hundred items on my desk they're all worthless does anyone care like just does anyone care about these hundred apps on these over or something like that yeah sean what's really interesting is diamond da dot com is actually more popular than bit cloud already now so i think it just passed it even though it launched another a week ago poly graham dot cc c is the app that people go to for n t's so actually when people share d and is they actually usually share links to poly not bit cloud pulse is really good for trading of coins and cloud feed is actually a mobile app by the way cloud feed i think might already have more users than bit cloud as well which is kinda crazy alright i use that feed because it's because there's no mobile app right so i think that's one of the challenges why isn't there an app because you're almost sort of playing with one hand tied behind your back twitter facebook they can send you push notifications they're a normal app for cloud feed i had to like save something to my home i had to safely save a website onto my home screen to make it look like an app but i still can't do push notifications so is there a rule that's that apple's blocking or google play block app are apps so there's cloud feed and flick app is actually another one that's essentially actually created by the former ceo fan tool and it's also very very popular but really like sean you're touching on our strategy which is we actually don't wanna build any products at all i didn't even wanna launch bit cloud ideally i think that with this kind of next wave of social i think what we're gonna see is kind of a separation of concerns where you have this blockchain which is the des blockchain that powers you know kind of the back end of all these things and then people who are much better than me at building products actually go out there and build them right and so for example if you look at diamond app or you look at poly dot you know again poly dot cc c you go to them and you're like well this looks way better than that crappy craigslist like thing that na built you know which is bit cloud and so it's really the strategy for us to not build anything and to let show but we call it the app layer to be owned by other people to give it away actually so i think we should i think we should do two things i think we should explain why this matters because to most people you're saying like poly graham and diamond app and it's like these are things they've never heard of they should go check it out but like i think i think it's more important to just get having the idea click in their head first which is if i went to facebook let's say i was a bad guy right i go to facebook and i wanted to take the most valuable thing i could take yeah it wouldn't you know it wouldn't be the engineers it wouldn't be the sign out front it wouldn't be mark zuckerberg i couldn't even mark zuckerberg is less valuable than the one most important thing basically the database right so facebook would guard with its life access to the database which is basically a whole bunch of rows that says sam par here's his date of birth here's his his profile here's who he's friends with and that information they keep under lock key and they give out little tidbits like when they created a platform or you could build facebook app on top of facebook or you can do login with facebook they give you a little bit of access because it's so valuable right if i'm an app i don't wanna make you go through a full registration form and upload a photo and then ask you to name all your friends and add them if i could just let you push one button and boom i grab your facebook profile and a facebook friends that was really powerful idea but facebook obviously keeps it under lock and key and what's cool about this is the same way that like you know what's the most valuable asset that the us government has it's either the the guns or the money it's one of the two but let's just take the guns out for a second the money right the right to sort of print the money and say we get to collect taxes in this currency therefore we have a monopoly on money and bitcoin kind of broke that monopoly in a way it said hey here's money without the government if you like the money part but you don't want the government you can use bitcoin and what you're kinda doing is the same idea which is you're turning a social network inside out the thing that facebook and twitter would never do they would never just give you account root access to its database what you're saying is here's a social network and the database is fully open and available to all if anybody wants to build any app you can use this database it is fully transparent and accessible that's the main reason it exists and so you're kind of taking a social network and you take the thing they protect at its core turning it inside you're putting it right at the surface for other people to use that's the big idea for this stuff and what does that mean that means today if you don't people are complaining about the facebook algorithm right fake news or i don't like that facebook sensor donald trump or i don't like that facebook did this well you're shit out of luck you can't go use facebook too you can't go use facebook red which has a different algorithm but with with this idea of ds that's what could happen somebody could just make a new app with a new algorithm that says i'm only gonna show pictures of hot girls i'm only gonna i'm not gonna censor anything or i'm gonna highlight things that you you get to decide how your feed is curated and so you could build another app that people could use without starting all over from scratch it gives people choice i think that's the big idea did i get it did i it yeah and and maybe just to put like a slightly different different take away of saying it is today you know facebook twitter you know they're really about mono content like you said keeping it under lock in key so that they can show ads on it and if they allow anyone else to build an app like if they allow another company to build an app on that mono content they lose those eyeballs and they show ads to them and it impacts their bottom line so really the fact that their business model is driven by ads is what kind of forces them to say okay this content under lock and key where the only ones who can build apps on it where the only ones who can curate it and show a feed and we can't let anyone else aggregate eyeballs other than us were the only ones so really what ds is about yeah right and there's one other component you just mentioned there which is the users the people creating all the content essentially doing all the work us the dancing monkeys that go sit on twitter all day coming up with interesting ideas giving them the interesting content we get zero right so like if i go check my twitter ad split or my facebook ad split and facebook made i don't know how many tens of billions of dollars on ads this year but i get zero right and and so that's the other component which is their business model is we gotta keep all the eyeballs and then we wanna keep as much of the rev share as possible that's their their natural kind of the game theory would would lead them to do that and with something like des you know i can make a post i can post on there i can go post on bit cloud and people will literally i can make money off it basically if my post goes viral i will actually benefit from the viral reality from the value of my content and that's the other if the all this shit works right like forget the blockchain forget about the how it works if it works that's one thing that's gonna change that the creators who make all the content look get a much larger share of the revenue what what do you think that share ends up being is it more like fifth fifties at ninety ten is there is there even a rev share like how much do you as the maker of the des blockchain get yeah well well that's that's the funny thing is that today the way facebook makes money is with ads and like you said it doesn't share very much of that with the creators because you have a monopoly on something you know you can be pretty greedy about it and so ds we're really all about opening up the content instead of mono content it's open content so when you make a post on bit cloud for example it actually shows up in the in diamond app in cloud feed and all these other apps because again the content is open it's kind of like a utility rather than a monopoly and the question then if you if you have all the content open is like okay wait but like how does anyone make money if all the contents open like can't like show ads you know on you know when all the content open is open you know that's why facebook is the way that it is but the interesting thing is when you put all of the content on a blockchain you to get two things you get openness you know that you know all the content open anyone can build on it which talking about but you also get access to kind of a new set of of features that involve money in a very direct way and so you know for example right what you were talking about earlier is the fact that you know someone can have a coin associated their their profile that anyone can buy or sell right that was that was one of the features that you know the the des blockchain supports that feature is very difficult to do in a centralized way both because kind of the traditional financial system is very c so to have it for example be that anyone in any country can like throw tens of thousands of dollars around left and right you know the traditional financial system isn't really built for that and then aside from that right it's all open so people can actually build on it and iterate and create new experiences off of that same that same kind of money feature set that we haven't even thought of before and so going back to how does anyone make money right a the ds blockchain has a native coin called ds right and so by holding it similar to how anyone holds bitcoin right as more usage comes on to that blockchain the the you know people the demand for ds should go up which should cause the price to increase you know and then everyone who holds ds does very well but aside from that you know because that's how you know i and anyone who's bought d so makes money you know the creator can basically keep the rest and so there might be small fees charged by the apps that kind of enable the creator to to do like you know for example cloud feed or diamond app might charge small fees in order to to earn an honest living and and to to make good money and so i think we might see you know basically a splitting of the market by a bunch of different apps that kind of charge small fees to allow the creators to do what they do but that's competitive as as opposed to mono and we'll hopefully result in a lot more of the value acc to the creator as a result so and that's kind of nice to think about it i just a couple kind of quick questions because i sean is deeper in this world than i am and i actually think that there's a few more interesting stories here than just the technology so how how many people work there right now as as full time staff yeah so we have about a dozen people how much yeah and yeah and and what's funny is that team we're now focusing mainly on the blockchain and so but if you count all the people who are working on apps know but got hundreds of that in your right and and totally wow so only twelve people that's crazy so you raise you raise funding to do that i think a hundred million dollars right yes so it's actually five thousand bitcoin which you know has appreciated a it and and yeah when you raise so you raise money but besides that money can you tell me how much money has been in so da we've had on this pod i think i i i don't i don't know but if i had a guess i wouldn't be surprised to be spent over a million buying other people's coins roughly i i think he said it publicly i think he said it on on big cloud so how much investing over dollars and talking about how much has been invested on the platform yeah well well so what's really cool is because it's a blockchain it's open right all of this data is open so you can go for example to prosper cloud dot com or you know i think bit cloud pulse dot com slash stats or like any of these websites in tell you i think right now there's about eighty million dollars invested in people's coins which to me is i so you know i think we actually yeah yeah yeah it is it's awesome and all that does that count the money you guys invest it because when i showed up from day one you guys did a smart growth hack which you sort of pre bought a bunch coin from naval and from jam and from yeah kim kardashian and whoever so you kinda bought coins at a very low price for all these so that their accounts had some initial value which would attract those people to come claim their accounts so does that eighty million count the money that you always does but i don't think it was very much very many coins that we actually put in it was like maybe tens of thousands of of diesel you know that went into it so i'd have to look at actually how much of it is that appreciation of that but yeah but there's definitely a piece for the people wait let me say one more thing that we're shape listening now sure go we're looking at you now you're in a dark room you have the shades pulled down we had biology on here a while ago and he had the same thing it was very dark and he was like you know i don't and he said it on the pod he's like i don't really like talking about my my location because because he said i say some crazy i made crazy predictions i'll speak out against powerful people and i'm you know i don't wanna like to take unnecessary risk and let them know where i am are is this are you in the same boat not not at all well you know we're reporting the mail mail it sorry i i wanted to i was like are you a are you a yeah i'm i'm like do you do you i'm like bond villain i no i'm just curious yeah no no i'm very open i'm in la you know i have a house here people have here house i'm a very open person well i don't know if you're supposed to talk about your security because you know there's security security dude it's like something i don't i don't kids and tell when someone asked if you hooked up it's yeah like you've you've just acknowledged if i missed to go yeah but yeah you know i'm yeah i'm saying i i i sorry let me ask this last question this is the last finals had a class the last it i love it so you you told me your twenty nine i looked at your linkedin you've had some like all your jobs have been like fancy like high end really great job so but like compared to the job that you have now they were normal is working at bit cloud at all or ds is it at all a normal like are you are you gonna run this like a normal company or you gonna be a little like if you had to explain to your parents like how your staff works and things like that would it appears though you do have a normal a normal company or you doing some eccentric stuff that that would be intriguing yeah well well that's funny actually so just to go into some eccentric of of the project you know the that five thousand bitcoin i mentioned all that money actually came in before there was any corporate entity set up to do anything thing and so essentially the way it worked was the blockchain was running and if you sent bitcoin to this treasury wallet the blockchain would basically watch that treasury wallet and give you des coins when it saw that there was a deposit there to like a corresponding key and so it was all automatic and so there were over forty four thousand purchases and i don't even know ninety nine percent of like like them who they are because they could just send bitcoin to that thing and they would get diesel coins on the diesel blockchain and yeah we you know we didn't set up a corporate entity and that was you know kind of two reasons it's a big reason that we don't want people to rely on it to feel like this is a centralized thing that's gonna own everything you know when you have equity holders you know they're they have kind of fiduciary duty forces them to milk everything and to be like hey like we should close this down at some point and really like make money off of it in in like a different way so so that was that was important but but yeah and then you know just just from a regulatory standpoint you know i i really you know there was no issue or of anything you know you just kind of threw bitcoin in and got des back and so what happened recently is and obviously that made it very difficult to hire you know that made it very difficult to even talk about who we are but very recently you know the the platform has we you know the blockchain has kinda gotten to centralized enough you know where there are thousands of nodes running running things there's like i said like you know over a hundred projects a lot of them pretty legit and we felt comfortable setting up a corporate entity and kind of more normalizing a how we hire and stuff so now as of a couple weeks ago there's the des foundation and so i'm on the board of it and i'm the i'm the only one right now but we're hoping to basically bring on some really legit people to join me and so it can actually be this kind of well governed thing and everyone's gonna work for that entity and so i think going forward it will look very normal and it'll kinda just be you know an organization that's a non nonprofit where people are paid with cash and ds like a combination of the two and and we develop the blockchain and and fund other people to build apps like i said we're giving away the app layer so that's kind of how we're thinking about it so early on i remember the story was nobody knows the creator but like i heard kind of threw back channels out we we kinda know who it is because because it seemed like you went out fundraising because it was like hey this is should i send my bitcoin to this random mass wallet and you know get back this coin back that i don't know if i want if what is the value been wearing happened because unknown launched and it was no no these are yeah site barely worked it look like a virus and then you know and it was like no don't no there's so i texted some people i said hey do you know what's who's behind this is this legit they said i think it's a legit the guy behind its legit the people behind it have are real builders and they said you know and dr and social capital and like a few tier one vcs have like are backing it and so that gave people a lot of comfort and that's why people like me and others put in money i sent a hundred thousand dollars into into into it's a big cloud or whatever to get it wasn't even called diesel at the time i back same yeah and so so are you but you're saying it now like oh i don't know these strangers on the internet to started sending us get bitcoin like ethanol i'm pretty sure you did some kind of road show where somebody was doing i i don't dennis bridge two gaps that it's like you're natalie no no you're way sharper and you're you're you're you're you're playing us a little no no no i don't mean one no totally just to give it a little more detail i it i love it but yeah just to give a little more detail yeah so what what's funny is you know i worked on this i was watching for almost two years since early twenty nineteen i met a lot of investors through my last company which was called basis you know where i raised a hundred and forty million dollars and then it didn't work wound up giving you know deciding to kind of do what i think is the right thing give all the money back but so what happened with ds is i kind of worked on it for dan two years you know alone by myself brought on a couple of good friends and then i talked to a bunch of the big names that are now involved so like social capital injuries and sequoia all of them and so what's funny about that is that i you know obviously i i did i talked to those people and so of the forty four thousand purchases it's probably a few hundred where you know i kinda told them hey this is what it is and so what's interesting about it is but those were the big purchases right so yeah they might be a few hundred but they were yeah million each i think like you know so it might make up eighty percent i think about thirty million dollars worth was that which is i think not not a huge and no one has no one owns more than five percent of the supply from that so i actually think you know i i actually cared a lot about keeping it very well distributed like any good cryptocurrency but but yeah but all of them actually don't own important they don't own equity in anything all of their interest is in the same asset that you or hold which is ds some of them used corporate entities to convert dollars to bitcoin in order to do this weird thing but they hold dis like those these whole ds for them and they like take delivery like you know whenever they want so so so that's cool and i think at the beginning you had a bunch of things sort of like we just retrace this story right so you do basis you you have this idea for stable coin you end up giving back the money when you decide it's not gonna work you if this new new idea for for a decentralized social network you raised some money from legit hit other people pile in like you're saying it's all pretty quote unquote fair which is that we're all owning the same thing and and then you get to the point of the launch you're you decide to be anonymous you try to go to the satoshi route but it doesn't work why didn't that why do you wanna do that and why didn't that work too many people get yeah so basically you i've been working on this blockchain the des blockchain for almost two years and we were like hey you know we should really launch kind of a prototype app to start testing it like in the in the field so to speak and that was bit cloud and we wanted to you know not really like have it go mainstream until at least like the middle of this year like the middle of twenty twenty one and so but you know we obviously launching earlier is better and so we kind of accelerated said okay in march we're gonna start sharing these like password protected links with some people just get a few hundred users kind of see how blockchain holding up with like this kind of activity and so yeah so so what ended up happening was it it you know kind of went out of control and the links got like way over shared and to the point where i kinda had to go out there you know i i had to start you know saying hey like this is what this is and and this is like you know what's going on but for me personally you know i've always been really i think ad i've i'd always almost admired of how like satoshi kind of like launched bitcoin without creating kind of like a centralized person that everyone kind of relies on or like this is our you know our guy so it was really i i wanted to kind of do the same thing there and so i launched with you know pseudo diamond hands and immediately you know it was kind of very hard to get pressed it was hard to get people to kind of listen to the story that that is the real story versus making their own and so we had a lot of press saying hey like this is a scam and by the way because it was just a prototype there were a lot of things we're missing so you couldn't cash out your money you can actually convert your money from so dollars out out and i was like wait a on so you're telling me that there's a website that you invest money in you don't know who made it it doesn't work a lot of the times and you can't get the money out right and he's like yeah i was oh okay it just making sure we're to same page share yeah right rightfully so any any other time i would say that's a complete scam also none of the code was open so even though it's a blockchain and it was running on a few dozen nodes like no one could audit it or be like hey this is a real thing and so we were just not prepared at all let me let me tell you something there was a whole bunch of criticism like what you're talking about right the code is not open source you can't cash out you oh they scrapped our twitter profiles oh there's you know there's a big pre buy people got in super cheap you know all this stuff there was all these criticisms of it we don't know who the founders are you know they're kind of anonymous but my theory and you tell i wanna know what you think about this so i have this phrase which is i think emotion commits the crime and then logic does the cover up so all these logical complaints i don't think are the real reason why people were so like up in arms about this new project that actually is like a really net like it would if something like this existed it would be a huge net positive in the world and those same people hate facebook well this is the antidote if something like this could actually get off the ground and work and so i was surprised that the emotion was there and i think i at least this is my theory i think that people don't like when someone gets rich without quote unquote earning it and i think what people saw is that the insiders so the people who created it or maybe the early buyers they bought so early on the bond curve they are so early on and wow hundred million dollars is come into this thing these coins have run up in price or the the profiles have going up price and there was this feeling like like i don't know i don't know how well you did but here's my guess i think you've made tens of millions of dollars already liquid without at at the minimum and your project is like under ten thousand da or something like that right so under fifty thousand let's say so like in already in the tech world this tech backlash because people will raise at like a hundred million dollar valuation and people are like oh i've been running this restaurant and laundromat for years and how does this little app with you know with with no business model be worth a hundred million dollars right there's already people who get upset about that but at the but the one saving grace is that they're not liquid it's not like the founders run around in lamb is living in a mansion in la but in crypto your liquid too so you you get the early hype and you get the liquidity of the lamb and the mansion and i think that that is actually what triggers people about so crypto in general bitcoin in general you know people who buy an n and they get rich you know they're they make a million dollars off this random image to i think to other people that feels inherently unfair and so do you what do you think is my theory what do you think of my theory and then what's your kind of response to the people who do you feel that way i think there must be some like validity to your theory because if you read there's a great book called the infinite machine about it ethereum and it catalogs like what happened at ethereum how it launched all this stuff they got major backlash from bitcoin people because of the way they raised money where they were like hey like you know projects aren't supposed to like take bitcoin for you know another bitcoin like you know this is like add i mean i read that book right after you know kind of everything that was happening with bit cloud and i was like this is ee similar so so i think part of part of what you're saying has to be part like like a factor you know dude look that said you know since then ds is listed on exchanges you can trade it on blockchain dot com ascend index and a really big one you know a couple big ones are coming soon and you know like the code is all open and people have gotten really passionate about it you know contributing to it the last couple people we've hired are like open sort like they were just contributing to it and we hired them so i think that you know if i saw someone who's will very clearly a scammer making lots of money i would be upset in a way that i would be i i wouldn't be as upset if i felt like there was a shred of them not being a scammer which we didn't have because i was anonymous you couldn't cash out the app was going down a lot so whatever whatever theory there is is probably exacerbated can i give some feedback and it's a it's a compliment i i when you first launched i was like diamond hands like when i think get dime hands i think of finance bros and i know when i think of this anonymous thing i was like i i actually i'm not on board with this although i agree i think it was wise for you to to launch anonymously i actually think it's wonderful that you're coming out because your person personality even though we've only known each other for forty five minutes now your personality guy for some you have a very trusting you you you give off trustworthy vibes and i actually think it's it's you've done the right move by coming out and and discuss things i i actually it it makes me like bit cloud more before the the way that it looked and the diamond hands name i was like i don't know if i if if this if this screams trust but you i i think it's good to like what what what's the like i'm a pretty big new but what's the founder of ethereum what's how do yeah so i find guitar and i i watch a lot of his interviews screams trustworthy like i i i i i like i buy what he's saying i'm like oh you're you're like won't he's really young but he's way wise it's beyond his ears he he says a lot of intelligent things that i agree with he seems good nature you have a very similar quality so i think it's smart that you're doing it let's not lie sam looks like a boy genius like uber and we're like oh looks nice this that guys you're probably gonna make but that you don't you know you're you're you're you're the perfect mix of like intelligent shit nerd but you also like look pretty slick you you're good looking yeah you're just smooth you you you got a good you've got appreciate anyway if so this is a compliment i i think it's good that you're doing doing it's so it it's too kind man i appreciate it let's do let's do one one like thought exercise because i think most people still aren't gonna really fully understand okay if a social network decent decentralized blah blah so let's take about this think about it from the perspective of the user who doesn't care if database runs on sql or the blockchain and who you know the they're gonna use something because it provides some new value to them right so even even the idea of like it not being monopoly like i think most people are inherently fairly lazy and they they're probably gonna just go with a default app anyways you know for a social network even if there was more choice so let's just take the actual like fun bit so on bi thought there was this idea that every creator every user had a coin and so i had a coin and i you know you give me a number i wanted to go up i'm i'm i'm like a monkey i'll immediately start playing whatever game is required for that number to go up and so my coin started at a certain price i remember it at its peak it was like five thousand dollars of coin my market cap was like half a million dollars i was on top of the world and now i stopped using it and that it's crashed i'm down four x and and all this good stuff but what is the aside from the you know pure gambling side of speculation and just the joy of seeing money go up whether as a holder or the or the owner of the coin what is the actual purpose why should individuals on a social network have their own coin what would you do with that why is that a good idea and just walk through like a use case so no theory but like here's joe here's sam guys here's why sam would want this or why that's good for like the idiot of this podcast i'll take it he was like sam so do you go there's different blockade yeah go ahead that better go i'll i'll let you i'll i'll let you leave it that no i do talk talk like i'm fine totally well like yeah i mean look it's a great question i mean so there's a deeper story to you know and so by the way the diesel blockchain supports all kinds of money stuff right not just coins but also n t's and diamonds which are like tips and people can build other things too but the the the coins having a coin associated with their profile is kind of what i think to be kind of you know this this wave was about an tease i think the next wave is gonna be about creator coins also known as social tokens and the reason why i got really excited about them as a as like kind of an asset class is actually a cash flow story so essentially you know with with ds right when you use any app right to access ds you can do a lot of this the same things you do on a traditional social network like you can post and you know all that kind of stuff but you you know you can also do stuff with money and you have new ways to monetize that kind of arise and so what's interesting is that essentially you can have creators making money through these other features and then take a percentage of that cash flow and send it back to that creators coin holders as a dividend long term and so just to give an example right today when you sell an n on any des app like you know like poly grammar or diamond you can actually set a percentage that's like what we call a creator coin a coin holder royalty and so every time that n nxt resell a percentage of that sale goes back to the coin holders and so i think that essentially the coins if you if you play this out right and you have like for example promoted posts where someone can give you an you can have an inbox of posts that people pay you to like repo to your followers and and a percentage of that can go to the coin holders you know you kind of have all of these new kind of like money native you know blockchain native business models for creators making money and if you allow a percentage of that to flow to the coins then suddenly it's kind of like you un the equity of of a company like facebook into like each creator coin and therefore the fans or or the holders of of that creator and so to me the coins are exciting as a means long term of like democrat kind of like the cash flows of a social network into the fans of of a particular creator and if you play the all of that out suddenly it makes it a lot easier for really awesome smaller creators to get discovered right because when you create that that kind of loop of like oh if they become big cash flows will flow to their coin from their monetization on the platform right and those cash flows will be big if they're popular suddenly you want to back the smaller creator who you recognize is awesome but that nobody else really knows about and so to me kind of democrat the the ownership of social media platform is like what the coins are about and creating that incentive for smaller creators to get discovered get invested and how people kind of grow with them is like kind of the long term of it but i obviously it's early so a lot of people don't what's it good thinking about that look like five or ten years how is this kind of think what do you think your business will be like yeah i mean so even in a couple of years you know i mean you know let's say we have like you know ten million daily active users right there are a lot of ways that we can build monetization for creators into the blockchain n entities are already there and creators have made hundreds of thousands of dollars off of that like tens of thousands i think for one of them they had over a hundred thousand dollars flow to their coin already through the creator a coin lt but there are other features too you know like for example that like like that pay to promote or pay or repo kind of mechanism where an advertiser can say hey repo this to your fans i'll give you this amount of money and then percentage of that can flow to the coins so basically anyway new ways that we create for creators to monetize on the platform a percentage of that can flow to the coins and suddenly the coins kind of become not just about pure speculation but about hey like what what kind of cash flows is this creator gonna do and that it's gonna be a lot because not not just because you know the platform is is more efficient you know like i i do think you know things like n entities things like you know pay to repo can be more efficient than the traditional model today where we have kind of a centralized company showing random ads but yeah but also just because there are so many more things that you can do right that could you know earn cash flows that end up going to the coin that we haven't even thought about yet so you did the thing i was hoping you wouldn't do which is you you did so so so you know anytime this is the tell in the tech world anytime somebody starts talking about democrat democrat it's a new smart guy of it's true i i can't stay that word yeah exactly you know you want your company to be disruptive and democrat at the same time right and also if they say there's a new asset class there probably it's probably a good idea but they're given you kind of like the the grand steve jobs vision actually shouldn't didn't say steve job because steve jobs is great at at basically saying a thousand songs in your pocket and like just leading with the killer hook and and i think for for this you know what i was hoping he would say and so i'm gonna kinda say it here is i don't know if you know this but sam is a aspiring fitness influencer a rising fitness influencer right and so those who are yeah rising i should say not aspiring he's he's aspire oh perfect i got my two you wanna plug your other hand but yeah good big bitcoin my my my need like dinosaur door your niche could be could be like like love it i'll be like the nerd who know started really frail and then made his way there's need and so you know someone like saying basically i i know sam i say this guy and i see his videos i'm like these these are great videos he's only getting you know a couple thousand views let's say right now but i it basically what what this world would let me do is as a early believer i can bet on sam i could say i like this guy's content i think this guy is gonna blow up and i can kind vote for his six i can give him some so i can buy his coin which gives him money to like make better content it gives him a little boost of morale to keep going but it also lets me go on the ride with him because i think we've all been there before we discover a band early or a brand early or an influencer early and then sure you're you're you believe in them and you're so you're so right they actually could do take off they never knew you they never had a real relationship with you and you didn't benefit from the fact that you know kim card you if you knew kim kardashian back when she was just paris hilton closet organizer and you thought she was great you missed out on the ride and and so this lets your true fans go on the ride with you and it turns your fans into sort of shareholders with you and so oh bro i study this stuff you know i kardashian where did this come from i have to know i must know and and sure enough there there's a story and so you know sam let's say i would bet on sam sam would get that cash flow sam could use that to make a cooler video and when sam makes that video and he gets more followers they have to buy in at a higher price point that i did because now sam more established so my stock is going up i'm earning instead of just following right i own instead of just following which is the way the world works today with twitter and instagram you just follow you don't earn and then this the you know furthermore sam could say hey you know what how do i make my coin really valuable to hold what if i kinda only fans it and i said i'm gonna do some exclusive stuff with only my coin holders who hold over a hundred of my coin so it's up to him to decide if he wants to make his coin more juicy more more enticing to hold which again will make my stock go up if i know sam the kind of guy he connects with this fans he's gonna put in the effort that's gonna make these coins more valuable and so it takes this idea that's been around for a long time the thousand true fans the thing that any artist knows that they need those real believers and it turns them into people who actually benefit from your rise and so that's what i think that's the good thing that i think will come of this aside from you know destroying facebook and all that could stuff i think the good thing that will come of this it'll make being a pacemaker and a curator like a job pretty much you can actually get paid for having good taste for following for believing in somebody early on which is the way that things should be i think yeah sean how are you better at explaining this than me also i i i'm kind of a i'm not offended but that's awesome well dude when i first shouted out big class yeah got lot of shit was like okay i gotta come up with a reason that i like this besides i think this make a lot of money for me so i started thinking about what what is the appeal here and i cutting defend myself and in doing so i with the case why does this show and alcohol besides just being a gamble yeah that's true i did i i i remember it but yeah sean just to add which is really interesting like you said there's actually never been a way to actually invest in someone when they're small and make money on their rise like in like this easily this efficiently and what's really interesting is actually yet another interesting kind of like layer on it which is once you invest in someone your bias is to be supportive your bias is actually to be hey i want this guy to succeed i want this person to to to be something and you can align in a way that you can't really on like you know without that mechanism like being able to buy into someone you know creates kind of an incentive that doesn't exist and what's crazy is that even bit cloud you know bit cloud diamond all these apps they're actually very positive discourse a lot of it even though you know there's not really any kind of you know there's not like there's less moderation than traditional social media right and the reason i think is basically you're investing in people right you're you're going long and and when you give people the ability to to like move money around right people naturally go long and when they go long they actually get aligned and and wanna support you and so weirdly enough like i i love like when people say like money is like the root of all evil you know like money is bad and i think that's part of why people reacted weirdly to bit cloud because like oh money prices whatever but like if you just look past that for two seconds you'll see that it's actually being used is an alignment tool that's making a lot of positive things happen that haven't happened what are your matters let me let me ask you a couple personal questions real quick what what what are your parents do for a living it's so my my dad's is an engineer and my mom is a social live what's city yeah so my mom was in virginia where i grew up for a long time to she actually she moved to san francisco my dad passed away a few years ago so i'm looking at you're linkedin you you you've always been a freak you went to princeton you know you you you've all you you see computer science that applied math at princeton you worked yeah it's a compliment that's a compliment you were compliment famous for being high frequency training but also it's like that's three i think jeff bezos worked and the found i figured forget forgot his name shaw is it just shaw david shaw david shaw yeah he's you know wizard you work you went to google at a newer software engineer there and then you raised a hundred and twenty five million dollars for a startup up which is crazy or a hundred and thirty three million you you you said on this blog post you gave the money back because you know it didn't work out so well what are your what does your mom think about like when you're trying to explain to your mom who's a social worker my mom a a a teacher so she doesn't you know and i'm in tech too when you're explaining to your mom what you do for a living or your aunts uncles or your brother and sister or friends who aren't you know it like you what did they think about this the fact that a twenty nine year old although you know you were twenty five it looks like when you raise a hundred and thirty three million are they like what do they think of this life that you have yeah i mean so my mom watches every single video that comes out she's gonna watch this and she's gonna call me about it and and tell me all her thoughts so so there's that but yeah man i mean i just you know i live modest life you know i i i don't think anything it really has changed for me personally and like look you know to your point and to sean's point earlier you know on like oh someone made so much money without like having produced something right you know i'm very serious about just mentally i don't think of myself as having any money right until we've really made it like you know i'm talking millions of users people really getting value at a large scale right so to me it's very important to not think about oh i'm i've made it when you know like like we have a lot to do like left to do and so yeah and by the way you know funny funny fact with basis my last company where i raised a hundred forty million and returned it i actually had less money after that in in my bank account than when i started which is basically about three years of runway from my like google and shop save right or no no i'm very lucky just because you know i mean i had you know like three years of runway like you know maybe like few hundred k or whatever and i'm very lucky to have had that because if i didn't have that i would have had to go back immediately to working at google which oh my god that's so bad it's the best company in the world i'm very lucky right but but yeah i might might like it's funny like i've been through like very high highs and like well the lows aren't very low because i'm very lucky obviously but but yeah after basis i was like i'm gonna try and do something else that's really impactful like not in the context of working at a company and if i can find something before i run out of money that's great but if not i'm gonna go and enjoy my life at google which i love you know i really love being an engineer in google i like to talk human shit and you're i have a feeling that this i was not you heard the last podcast i was the i was the hate of the two of of big cloud my opinion is likely changed as of now because of how you know sean's like this my good friend's neville is like this you're incredibly emotionally stable and because of that i actually think that can make this business incredibly successful well i mean i appreciate it man i mean yeah i mean i think that yeah i mean i i think it's just really important to keep perspective right you know i mean and also like you know sam just to emphasize you know i'm really lucky so it's not like it's a lot easier for me to be emotionally stable i feel than like someone who's actually having i be hard you know i think yeah i think it's genetic and and i think it's upbringing i i think if you're if you're surrounded by love when you're when you're growing up you and it's for some genetics stuff you're you're just gonna be like pretty stable it's i just like now i understand now now i wanna buy your coin on big cloud oh nice oh i'm i that is like the biggest compliment you give me some entire podcast i actually own some sham already but i i don't know sam if i found what's your handle on on on diamond or or it's all at me so i don't know if you made your account log and i haven't like find it after this yeah i think you've converted me now i like i said i i don't think i was complete yeah complete hate but of the two i was the the more of the hate for sure sean was like i i probably made put up sean because he was like this is the greatest thing ever and and and and we'll see who's right but i i i you put it today well i i think i i i kind of i don't know if i fully said this the first time but basically i think that whoever can can break through and create a decentralized social network no social network well that'll be one of the most important changes in the world over the next twenty years like self driving cars i think it's gonna save a bunch of lives i think ai is gonna introduce a lot of like productivity gains and like you know kinda call some labor like changes in the way that labor works and i think that whoever can take social networking and make it an open do it the crypto way with the crypto values i think that that person or that that group of people is gonna have done a lot of great in the world and i think it's gonna be a huge project i think it is gonna be a multi trillion dollar project when it whenever it works and i think i said this early on which is i don't i'm not saying that this one work i think there's still probably a sub five percent chance that this works and i said but if it works the payoff off is huge so i that's the type of bet you make in the tech world low probability high payoff and when you when you go at it with an enthusiasm you're gonna learn about it and you're gonna go for that ride with a bunch of early adopters and even if it crashes and it doesn't end up working out we're gonna all have learned a bunch of lessons so that when the right one does come around you say that one makes sense this solves the problems of the last one this feels different and so i know that this is the real one but you never know unless you go in with know sort of a belief mentality towards these things is it's easy to just say this is not gonna work and you'll be right ninety nine out of a hundred times it's just that the one that a hundred matters you'll have also said is never gonna work and you wrote it off and therefore you didn't benefit from it in any way that's like you know optimism pays in the tech world and so even though i got a lot of shit you got ten thousand times more shit for for for doing the project i just feel like that's such a misguided way of living and like you know again optimism plays in this business so i i find skepticism is useful at certain points but you know you want a default to optimism and then go in and find the things that don't smell quite right and but but you know even then you'll just have learned a bunch and gotten a bunch of experience and played with all the new things so that you know when the real one dude and and yeah and i think it's really awesome that you know for me you know i get to do the thing that i love in the world which is to build cool shit and and and that that's helpful to people and even though like you said like five percent you know and and you can do that and and in fact is something that you know at least the expected value can help but give give us give us the the craziest story because i remember i on big cloud and it's like oh pamela anderson joins and she's a huge fan and then like i don't know whoever it was all kinds of crazy characters you know that we're joining this thing i was like i haven't thought about pamela landers anderson in like twenty years this is amazing and she's like you know good to creating all these incentives for her coin holders you on the inside every day you must have just been seeing all the random stuff and getting threats from one side and praise from these random people give us a give us a war story or a crazy story that like is this kinda of fun that that totally yeah i mean what's interesting is that it did attract a lot of like pretty famous people to like join or create profiles you know i think like dip and blouse ty gun antonio brown are still like posting there and stuff but i think probably the craziest story is at some point i went to a dinner in la and i don't know if i'm like even allowed to say but there were like a lot of famous there and i got to kinda like tell about it give cat give get give categories so like talking like like that fast furious actors are we talking you no no like i the bad hub thing how do i even there were a billionaire tech ceos and then also the biggest celebrity like someone's name who sean mentioned earlier who was a closet closet organizer okay shi sharp ashley yeah all of times absolutely yeah and so i think yeah just being able to kind of explain our vision to to all these people was really awesome and and yeah and i think what's cool is like you know when you really get to explain it everyone gets excited about it even in spite of kind of all the initial like oh we you can't cash out or like this and that like when you're like hey like this is what it is it's inspiring and like you said sean if we can actually use these features these new kind of like money feature like the coins like the like the diamonds all stuff to decentralized social media it's gonna do a lot of good you know independent of the fact that they make creators more money in the line with fan that that's so great a high school in virginia that you'd be a crypto nerd hanging out in la at a mansion dinner with king kardashian kardashian i mean what's funny about it is i was really into bitcoin in college in like twenty thirteen school so i built a minor i met mark carp who's the ceo of mount go my friend and i like went to japan and randomly tweeted him and he was like come by our office i met him so i was really into like bitcoin and encrypt so and you know one bitcoin crashed i was like okay i guess i'm gonna go do my hedge fund thing or whatever but it's funny i think if you told like college ad that like this is what he'd be doing i think he'd be like though yeah that's awesome you know that's that's cool i know that's about right you can put an action part like you know maybe not i mean it's can yeah i'm i'm gonna it's it's like i'm asking you stock tips i'm on bit cloud i'm on the site now what and and i could see this i mean i could just go and find it but what what creators do you own and what what what which one are you gonna be making any purchases anytime soon what do you like yeah definitely i own active creators so if a creator is active and like posting and like doing fun stuff or interesting stuff i buy them but really the thing that i you know like my the hedge fund side of me really likes is n artists because for n artist even today not theoretical all of them set royalties that go to their coins and so there's real cash flows there that are often like totally disparate like you know like their coins are not like correctly priced for like how much money is gonna actually flow to their coins and so i've been yeah i i bought like spooky and clout punk you know early aluminum mina is like another one and those like just the cash flows are like above what it was when i like you know those have made up for what it was when i invested in it so so that's kind of like the i think that's a strategy that like just traditional like i do like i get it and then as we create more cash flows going to the coins will be even more but aside from that because i know that you know creators who could get big are gonna have ways that cash flows go to the coins the smaller creators who i think are active and are like gonna do cool shit you wanna put together you you enjoy that's like the other one oh there are a bunch well so da mesh has been crushing it he's not a smaller creator but he's just been super active he's doing a lot of stuff with creating time right now yeah yeah yeah he's he's he's very big on the platform i'm trying to like there's like m who's who's a woman who's very active there and does a lot of stuff ti is this developer who does a lot of awesome stuff yeah it's a you wanna know my strategy that that worked on big cloud at least early on this worked pretty well i i i i was thinking about like who do i pie do i buy the famous people that are not on yet there's people building scraper to try to figure out someone's thinking about it or they tweeted it out and it hasn't gotten verified yet so go front run that i figured out there's very simple way to win and i said right now with any early project i've built a bunch of social networks and i know anytime you build a social network at first seventy percent of the conversation on that social network is about the social network this happened with the stuff i built it's happened if you go to club house eighty percent of the rooms would just end up they will end up talking about how great club ass is or what it's gonna be or what's bad about it they're is always talking about the platform itself so i knew okay if people are gonna be interested in the platform itself i invested in all of the analysts who could who could go through the on chain data and report how what prices were working and the you know how many how many new users there were and all that good stuff and so i bought all the analysts dirt cheap and they went up like crazy because again they were talking about the platform in a way that was a differentiated because the normal person didn't know how to go analyze the blockchain and then the other one was basically rich active people so i i saw da was just gonna buy his own coin and whale shark was just gonna buy his own coin craig clement was gonna buy his own coin and so it's like a company that does a share buy back it's like oh okay this person has the they have enough funds where they could look dramatically move their own coin price so all i gotta do is just buy them and wait for them to do their buy backs and it's sure enough they did and der even said it publicly it's like i'm gonna buy for every follower i get i'm gonna buy back my every every coin holder i get i'm gonna buy back ten x of my own coin or something crazy like that and i was like well that's a po scheme that i love that's perfect great like i'll just pitch on to that right this guy's guaranteeing and i know he's a man of his word he's gonna buy he's gonna buy back his own stuff and i could just front run that so that worked amazingly at the beginning i don't know if that would do work now strategy of forecasting what content is gonna be popular and then investing in the people who are producing it i mean that's like that's like the name of the game i think so i think that's pretty awesome yeah the like there was a guy who would do fake designs like mock ups like oh this is what the client could look like yeah oh if they added in she helps so it could look it's just like kinda like design porn yeah design i was like oh that's gonna work people are again it's talking about the platform and in a differentiated way because this guy's a designer and he's gonna just design mock all the time this is gonna go viral great yeah buy this no genius honestly sleep yeah and it'll be interesting to see how it works at scale especially because diamond app is like so mainstream and i think can actually get like some bigger people to like join and start using it yeah i i honestly i wonder how it's gonna play out by the way another fun thing we didn't talk about is there's actually an algorithm feed that's like open source now built into the blockchain so that would probably play into your strategy where you can look at how the feed works and then try and figure out what what's gonna get to the top it's pretty hard to game i think but but that's that's another like interesting have you talked der mesh so for the people listening saying dark is one of the c cofounder of hubspot as of today he's probably worth just off hubspot stock it's public you can go and look probably like a billion and a half so very very very successful he was part of bit cloud very early i mean he he was telling us very early on that he was buying a lot and he is he wasn't an investor but he was an early investor in coinbase base he was an early investor in crypto he obviously has hubspot wildly successful and he's like this is my thing so have you have you hung out with him he that guy is interesting as hell well what's crazy is i think i met da like pretty late in the game i had like a pretty short call with them where i just kind of we just talked about you know life what the thing is and what what bit cloud and and ds is and all that stuff so what's funny is i think do our mesh just like really independently kind of saw whoa you know like you know if it like you said sean you know in the five percent where it works or whatever like this is huge and so what's funny yeah i i've had a very short conversation with him i'd love to to hang out with him more but you know he's busy and obviously we have like using thing i honestly think you know i think he does post a lot i think ninety nine percent of people they'll say they're not doing it for the money and then they totally are he's like the one person i believe that is not actually doing it for the money so i i genuinely believe he's doing it because he's like i want this to win and in order for this to win we need like economic activity we need like positive energy in the system so i'm gonna literally like almost in a philanthropic way put a bunch of money into just like get kick start this because it's gonna take enough people doing that because like i said right now it's small it's really small and like that you know there's the the with crypto there's these hype cycles at the beginning but there's a vicious other side which is that if it doesn't just keep magically going up people get disillusioned for a bit and then it has to get another thing that like picks it up and so i think he was genuinely yeah try kick you know kick activity and enthusiasm among and amazing another thing to your point sean i i have you know good news to for you like with regard to if we can do like a social media you know dis decentralized social gonna be really awesome which is that i actually think i won't say the word it's inevitable but i think it's actually very asymmetric like in favor of decentralized platforms actually winning the main reason being that i think when all the tent is open and anyone can build on it i think that the speed of iteration that you can have and the like caliber of product is just a lot higher so you know just like you know on that five percent you know it's like if you know for example just because all the content is open right we can have like all this over hundred teams that like we didn't even hire just go out there and build way better apps and we were capable of building internally but then it's even bigger which is like you get like once you get a little bit bigger you know let's see like a million users now you have like traditional publishers basically looking at the open content being like hey like with one engineer we could spin up like a a feed like espn or something can spin up a sports feed for sports influencers right and be like hey like this is cheap like we should do this and get into the social game and make marginal money and then you know in other countries and this is i think something that da really likes you know for example in a country like india or russia or something like that today they use twitter a lot they use they use basically apps built predominantly by people in silicon valley and the reason is that you know silicon valley has a monopoly on the content and you know they because they have that you have to use their apps but when all the content is oat and you can actually have people in the native country build the apps that you use and tailor it to their to their user base you can read stories about how facebook was just horrible in japan for a really long time and like nobody you know they had to make all these optimizations that were like k g to to you know they were just leaving on the ground like no one was doing them because they're centralized kind of centrally planned organization so i i think once you have a blockchain can actually handle posts and data which hasn't really has not existed until do so i i think it just kinda opens the flood gates for this like number of innovators and an an amount of energy that wants to build that is it just has to beat essentially plan model i just don't gotta get the power doesn't though i know that like i i it it always works this way you make a big splash and then there's like either down it goes down or a plateau toes and then it needs to go up right now you guys had that massive splash it went away for a minute because as it does everything novelty always goes it goes away and then you gotta you're gonna have your comeback up and so i hope that you could pull this off and you have to make it so like i wanna go there and all of us wanna go there on a consistent basis because if you can't pull that off you're not dick and i want you to kick ass totally and i have a funny story for you actually so i think on that the crypto side of things helps us a lot because crypto it's really hard to kill something it's crypto i i've i've learned and so just to give you an example crypto kitties was this n project that got really really big and then died or whatever right and what's funny is during the crypto kitty hype i gave a talk about my project difference just like a stable coin but the cofounder of open seas and tal was at the talk he came came up to me after and was like hey man like you know thinking you know i like this like an thing we're gonna make a marketplace for things like crypto kitties and i was like dude really you know like what are you doing with your life this n entities are dumb that was like that's never gonna you know happen again but you know crypto has a way of like when there's a really interesting concept which i think n entities were right it kinda plays dead for a while and then people realize it it comes back it gets and that's that's happening it look many things yeah absolutely and so you know so from my standpoint obviously we're doing a lot of fun stuff we have actually just today we rolled out a referral program that any one of the apps can use you know where if you someone can share your a link they get twenty five dollars you get like five dollars or something and so know that's the first money we've invested in growing the user base and i think that's gonna do well but i really think a big part of it is you know when you have a really good concept which i think creator coins alone are are interesting not to even mention like diamonds and stuff you sometimes just takes some time for the market to figure it out but yeah i think the initial hype kind of to me showed me okay this is this is something that you know once people maybe get a little bit bored of entities they're gonna look at the next thing and this is just gonna be waiting you know so i don't know obviously not it's all five whatever the five percent like sean said i love that but that's my you know that's kinda of my view on it it's awesome man well listen i appreciate you coming on i think you did great and i think that for people who who like trying new stuff they should go check it out what's the best starting point for them now so is it is it bit cloud still or six months it might change but right now diamond da dot com is awesome it you know the developer basically wanted to make it a ten x a bit cloud and i think they achieved it so that's great and then if you like n t's specifically poly dot cc is a really awesome place to browse the n entities if you if you're into that it's just a great great way to look at them but yeah ma'am thanks for having me i mean this is incredible like you guys i like i said i'm i'm a little bit like afraid of how well you explained it and how much better was me but yeah i gotta i gotta work on that i guess just send people like this like lip or something we but jonathan on the line it's okay when you were in college when you were in college like mining bitcoin i was just you know sitting there trying to i have no skills so i'm just there they're trying to convince people to buy you know like random like objects in my room and so you know you get good at what you get good at you got good at something that was extremely valuable something tell i good at this other thing like explain we're going for you i just i know i i know i i know like this understand i bet that i'm making on you but something tells me you're gonna be okay hi dude i mean look the the upside of all this is that if ds works a it helps a lot of people man i'm honestly not even diesel if anyone figures out to decentralized social and if we helped in that like really like my my mentality is if we ins indicated something really good we've done a good thing for the world and i sleep very well at night knowing that no matter what happens like pushing this forward you know is has helped you know well let me ask you one one other thing i've always wondered which is you had all these big people invest in buying buying the currency before you guys launched and then you launch and they didn't all use it like where are they why what what up with that did you hit them up and you're like hey brother it would be nice if you're the number one or two person on the network you own the coin you invest in this before we launched can you go like you know use the thing like or did you not pull that car what what's up with i'm must that's actually mostly me so we have a lot of people who are like really big names not just in vc but also like in hollywood and all that stuff who who bought do so and they asked me like matter like is now the time like to really like bring this in and like do it and it's just didn't feel like bit cloud was quite there yet now with diamond and poly i mean i think now you know i i think it's a bit different but it was mostly me kind of because i don't want them to join bring all their users and then people are kinda like this isn't good enough this looks weird and we lose like half of them right out the gate right so to you know like like i said we're playing the long game here so the longer we wait to really bring in the big people and tell them hey now is the time i think the better it's gonna be and the more users will have so but we're we're there i think with diamond so you'll probably start seeing some of the bigger people using it and and be so we're like yeah our schedule guy all screwed up sean was lake because his house is flooding and we were we we were tinkering with the timing and use stayed with us and and we really appreciate that so you've been very generous of your time this is bad ass man awesome yeah this was fun good to meet you where should people find foot follow you what's your so are you still under diamond hands or you in that account matter now you can follow diamond hands in matter diamond hands is gonna still gonna do some fun stuff but matter is where i post from so yeah awesome alright alright sounds thank you so much thanks for coming incredible just incredible