so i can borrow nine hundred million dollars at like point one percent interest and put into bitcoin which averages a hundred percent appreciation for the last ten years okay well what's yeah why not yes but but there's another detail to it i feel like i could rude world i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a days off on a roll so pumped dude welcome last time you were here i just went and looked it up four months ago the bitcoin price was thirty seven thousand today bitcoin price is sitting at sixty nine thousand i said four months that's kind of amazing and my question to you started off why is the bitcoin price going up well prices go up because more people wanna buy than sell so that's like the simplest example or explanation but if if you think about what's happened in those four months are the biggest thing is the bitcoin spot etfs got approved and in those etfs it basically just gives a ton of people access to the asset that previously didn't have it and so historically we've seen these etfs for certain asset classes get approved lots of money comes in the price goes up over a long period of time i think people are surprised at how quickly assets have come in there's over ten billion dollars that have flowed into these assets and then also how quickly the price of bitcoin has gone up instead of new all time high you know within two months of etf same if you followed this have you been watching this like the etf stuff i know that when i tracked my like net worth which i look at like every six months it it changed that worth yeah it changed and i and i and i saw that it went up and i had no idea why like when the net worth goes up do you str a little differently around the house do you look at sarah a little differently like turn to look at you a little differently tell me the truth baby we got it we made it baby paul was right it's red panty night we made it we don't a baby that's what we say i'm surprisingly check every six months like i i check on a weekly basis and track it like pretty religiously and i feel like things you measure move and so if you wanted to move then you gotta measure like off i track i track income i don't track network worth because there's nothing i could do about that right it's i've i've i'm not like you guys i've done it set it and forget it but now that con bitcoin and ether is close to an all time high bitcoin is i think should i just should i just sell it all and get out the everyone one rule of bitcoin is you don't wanna sell your bitcoin obviously no i mean look the i think the long term kinda like thesis around bitcoin is no different than it's always been which is you have a scarce supply asset there's lots of people who want it that number of people who wanted it is increasing now the people who are begging on the door aren't like retail investors on the internet ten dollars it's large institutions that have billions of dollars they're obviously allocating to it and probably the most exciting part over you know call the next twelve months or so is that at the same time that all this demand is coming in the bitcoin having is coming and that's just when the daily incoming supply the number of bitcoin that get created each day is gonna get cut in half from nine hundred bitcoin to four hundred and fifty so like i was joke if you went to economics one zero one class supply and demand if supply goes down and demand goes up at same time then the price has to go up to accommodate everyone and we've seen this happen before and it probably happened again as most of your net worth in in crypto stuff now pumps i mean no i know it was you're still you you're still holding strong yeah i haven't sold anything my i i bought more crypto stuff but also we've built another a number of other businesses and and done a bunch of different things that it's not the same percentages but it's still you know definitely over fifty percent do you remember about three years ago sean made a tweet that's i forget what the tweet said but like some indian newspaper picked it up what was it it's said like entrepreneur sean prairie puts all of that word the crypto what was it i love how you could tell a story and get all parts of it wrong but still the story is kinda right not an indian newspaper not all my at worth basically when i when we got bought by twitch i had a bunch of cash come in and i was like you know what i'm moving i put i was i'm gonna i tweeted it i'm i'm putting twenty five percent of my net worth into bitcoin i just that was it that was the tweet and then a bunch of blogs like bitcoin dot com and stuff like that not necessarily in institution but they all were like twitch executive says here are there they then someone was like amazon executive because amazon owns twitch they're like amazon executive twitch executive says he's moving twenty five percent of his net worth into bitcoin and a stunning move and it's like oh you know my network is like it's like we're talking about like oh i i put quarters in the vending machine here like these are not huge sums of money that is moving like good like it should not make news when i do something but yeah that was the that was the story and honestly one of the better moves i ever did that was in twenty nineteen so so that was a a good bet always thought that the media if they wanted it really to get the clickbait instead of like amazon executive or whatever they should just label everyone future billionaire right you can't help my billionaire yeah like you can't just move that right everyone will click on every article so we had a michael sailor on like a year two maybe two years ago now he got we we got in a little at the end a little ti he got he got angry i me i remember that's that's about the only thing that i truly remember from that podcast it over it why because he goes i go michael what's the downside of this of this bet you're taking and he's like there is no downside and was like well that's that's dishonest because with every decision there's upside and downside and even if the downside is minimal there is also downside and he's like no there is no downside and i remember i i think i said well i don't trust you then because if you're not admitting that there's downside to this decision you're just being dishonest what else are you lying about and it kinda out weird and i still feel that way i i still feel that way but on here we on what you wanna talk about your talking about sean i think asked if this is the craziest bed of all time it appears as though it's working right i want you to do two things i want you to explain the like just explain like i'm five years old what did michael sailor do and then after you've explained kinda like just the mechanics of like what is the bet that this guy has been placing but kind of like from the start of it to till to now because he's kind of evolved it and then i want you to tell me if you think this is sort of on the on the spectrum of idiotic to genius where does this fall for you in terms of of a bet because it is a colossal colossal bet so explain what he's done yeah he he has definitely bet the company and burned the boats for sure and the way to think about you know kinda how it started was he had a bunch of cash i think he had like five hundred million dollars of cash give or take because he owned he owned a a a a publicly traded software company my micro strategy which is like a twenty year old company at that and they did something completely unrelated to crypto like they they do business analytics right so they do business analytics the five hundred million dollars was sitting on the company's balance sheet he personally started to get interested in bitcoin he bought some person i think about like two hundred fifty million dollars of bitcoin he disclosed that and then the company said maybe we should buy bitcoin as well and i think that there's like two different types of people who buy bitcoin especially for a company some are like i'm gonna go day trade the balance sheet which is a horrible idea and we'll end in you know sorrow and then there's another idea which is like i want to have an asset on my balance sheet that i have confidence in over the long run and what he basically cater to the conclusion along with the board of directors and and some of the shareholders was wait a second the dollars are being dev value inflation is really high and so we're like losing purchasing power the number of dollars are staying the same but the inflation is eating away at our purchasing power so he said let's go try to buy something else and they supposedly did this entire analysis they looked at like real estate stocks bitcoin gold you know all these different assets they came to the conclusion bitcoin was the thing that they should buy and so he was the first public company that wasn't like a crypto minor or something like that to go and say i'm gonna put like eighty five percent of my balance sheet into bitcoin now if he had like ten million dollars no one would care but this was a company that was like a billion dollar company five hundred million dollars of cash he made this big bet and if the story just ended there i think a lot of people will be like wow that's kinda crazy but then he like doubled tripled quadruple down on it and he began to raise a bunch of money via debt offering so he would like sell bonds and get really good terms get that cash buy more bitcoin then he was like selling equity at one point whenever the value of the company like was higher than what he thought it was actually worth he would sell equity use that cash to buy more bitcoin and he went from owning zero bitcoin in july of twenty twenty to today he has more than two hundred and ten thousand bitcoin which is more than one percent with the bitcoin network and it's worth you know i know something more than like ten billion dollars and so yeah it's an insane bet but if it works then we'll call a genius bet and so like history is written by the victor let's see what happens so he he currently has fourteen point nine six billion dollars of bitcoin in micro strategy and it's up ninety seven percent all time so he's put in seven point three billion and now it's sitting on fifteen billion of of assets now i think there's one other piece to be honest about which is it wasn't just that he was like we have five hundred million on the balance sheet what can we invest in i think the truth was and this is what we were trying in our original interview with him this what kinda started to come out and i was like this makes more sense to me and i kinda wish you was a little bit more upfront about it which was his stock was flat or going down for a long time like i think if you look at the micro strategy chart it will pull it up here if you go look at the all time chart for like since i don't know two thousand and two to you know twenty twenty the stock the stock was basically basically flat let me see exactly so it was flat from two thousand and seven to twenty twenty two or sorry twenty twenty before he started making his bet and that's a long time right that's two thousand seven to twenty twenty that's a that's a thirteen year period and so what ended what he realized was he's like why are they not giving us any credit like we're basically we're basically valued at the amount of cash we have they're not valuing the business really at anything and the business is gonna produce more cash but they don't believe that we can invest this well or that we can reinvest our cash well to grow the enterprise value of the company so we have two choices we either dividend out all the cash or we gotta do something with it that's gonna get our stock price to go up and i think the reality is he was stuck between a little bit of a rock and a hard place where he had this business that was too successful to to not continue but his share price would not move because investors just simply did not believe any of the stories about what they could do with cash and so he kinda had to do something i think that's the part that that's a little bit left out is like oh i completely agree and he was very loud about it on purpose which i don't blame him for being i i also think that like maybe an extension of this is whenever you have a company that has cash on their balance sheet and it's like accumulating cash it's usually because they don't know what to do with it like there's not a clear how do i reinvest in my business and like drive more cash in the future and so historically what those companies have done is they've either dividend out or they've bought back their shares but if your shares are flat and there's not a lot of volatility to it there's not a lot of opportunity to buy back the shares for less than what what the company's worth and so this is definitely like that's why say it's like bet the company burned the boat situation where he went all in on this strategy now what i think is very interesting about it is he essentially has pioneered this like i have a business that does software analytics and kind of business analytics and that's supposed to throw cash and then i have like a treasury strategy but if you really think about you know maybe companies in other countries like this is not foreign to them right if you're in a country where like the currency is very volatile or or it could lose value very quickly a lot of times you're managing foreign currency risk and you're trying to get into dollars or something that's more stable it's just that no one in the us member thinks about this or worries about it and so now he's doing it with bitcoin now i actually think one of the most interesting parts of this story is said no one's followed him like there there hasn't been a second micro strategy i've talked to a lot of people and i'm like you know one company is a data point two would begin the trend and so i actually don't have a good answer to like if this guy has made basically seven billion dollars off of this bet why has no one followed usually in public markets like somebody does something you know back to like a twenty seventeen twenty eighteen like companies were start changing their names the blockchain long island iced tea changed to like long island blockchain right and they just started doing anything they possibly can right now ai like everyone goes to puts dot ai at the end of their name try to you know get some sort of boosting in their stock price but no one's following sailor which like the o mission of everyone else may actually be a data point that we should pay attention to as well well it's a it's a very scary bet i mean in order to do this i don't know if you have to be a public company but you you have to be large enough to be in that ballpark and i i don't know how much he must own the majority of the company because there's been my border there's been so many times where like it could've have been just verifiable to fire him over all this i think his voting control but not majority ownership he's have voting control he has about i think he has about fifty percent ownership of the stock this is if and so you have a unique combination of cash cow business been around forever founder ceo publicly listed already so he's able to do these bonds because when he listen to him talk he's like so i can borrow nine hundred million dollars at like point one percent interest and put it into bitcoin which averages a hundred percent annual appreciation for the last ten years okay what yeah what's yeah why not yes but but there's another detail to it and i'm definitely not an expert on like convertible bond offerings in the public market but these are convertible bonds and they convert at a premium to the current price so without getting into all the intricacies is basically like people can get paid back or they could convert to equity and maybe let's say fifty percent higher so if the company's worth you know ten billion dollars today it'll convert at fifteen billion so if the company goes up a lot like you'll obviously convert rather than get paid back and so it's not exactly the cheapest capital if you know you're basically selling equity but you are selling it at fifty percent premium so it it's still attractive to do and so do you when you look at this are you like wow this is genius this is terrible this is it's this is risk that it appears what's the pump takeaway away because you've talked to this guy multiple times we did an interview them years ago and haven't really paid too much attention since you live in this space you know day to day and you you know this guy a lot better than us what what's your honest take of this i think it is risk for a company to sit with five hundred million dollars in us dollar cash on their balance sheet than five hundred million dollars worth a bitcoin and the reason being that or or maybe the one clarify is if you have a long term oriented posture and you don't need that cash for day to day operations right now bitcoin will definitely do better from protecting your purchasing power over the next ten fifteen twenty years than the dollars will and so it it's a unique aspect to be able to not only have the cash but also not need it to run your business and so yeah i think that he's actually taking less risk than most of the public companies and and my expectation is actually that shareholders at some point will start turning on some of these public companies that have tons of cash and saying like hey if we're sitting there with you know mean warren buffett sitting with a hundred billion dollars of cash like how much money is he losing for the business by leaving getting cash and it's unclear what else he could do dude do you know what's crazy is like you know there's have you guys read the book the outsiders it's about yeah nine different ceos and the whole thing is like they've gone from ceo to capital all and that phrase is thrown around a lot but that's actually a a really so for a person who starts and builds a company from scratch typically their skill set is like they're a little bit of a wildcard card they're probably good at pro they're probably decent at hiring and oftentimes that means that they're not the best at managing and i have found amongst my friend group oftentimes that doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna be a good investor and so it's pretty interesting to watch someone go from being like whatever you are when you start something a tinker to a proper capital all that transition is pretty rare i think i think typically the people who are good at being investors they kind of start as an investor and they either buy a company just so they can get the cash flow to invest but those skill sets to see someone like transfer those skill sets or or evolve as a as an operator that's actually really fascinating to see that the way i call it is you go from product manager to people manager to money manager that's the transition right that is the the levels of the game in business that's rare dump those three yeah i very very rare very hard warren buffett has a great quote he says he goes i'm a better investor because i was a businessman i'm a better businessman because i'm an investor and for those who have the disposition to do both they can become very good at one because they were very good at the other but you're right most people aren't able to do have both gears like sean you and i think are quite good and know i'm sure you are two pam i know sean more intimately like we're pretty good i think i going zero to one do you think that and you also invested do you think that you are better at starting versus investing and how's has that evolution been so far definitely not better at investing than i am at building because i spent fifteen years building and then probably four years seriously investing right so just in the learning curve a more of a white belt right but i can see what warren buffett says which is that when you have built and run companies you are better at analyzing companies versus somebody who's only ever analyzed a company from a sort of spreadsheet arms length away they take everything it's sort of face value right there's a skepticism that gets built up a healthy skepticism when you've actually seen how hard it is to do some things or you know for example a lot of times in the stock market people react to the news it's like google puts out a you know overly woke ai thing and people are like oh google's dad google's it's like do you know how hard it is to compete with these companies do you know how durable you know how how strong these businesses are you know how hard it is to create one of these and so the you know mister market goes up and down and its mood right it gets you four and it gets depressed but a business builder has trained themselves to not have that same swing of psychology to go from peak euphoria everything's is is amazing gonna go up and my god they'll never recover again a builder kind of has been through that themselves and therefore when they're an investor they don't get caught up in that kind of herd psychology that the worst investors do what do you think pump i i think that's dead on you see this not only in the public market markets you also starting to see it in the private markets like how many of the great angel investors today are really just running companies or or building things themselves and then they kinda angel invest on the side or vice versa and so like founders fund maybe it's like the best example where they're really you know putting a flag in the ground and they're like look we wanna be operators and we want to invest by operating day to day we learn which makes us a better investor vice versa i i just think of like to win in the dynamic world we're headed into you have to be a ball player and i always go back to the like you know don't know when you're twelve years old and you play like a little league baseball and there's like okay hey kid today you're the picture tomorrow like you're gonna play short stop tomorrow you're gonna be like the catcher oh now you're like the designated hit like you just have to be able to do all the different positions and there's not really like this specialization that you get maybe when you get into high school college or or definitely in major league baseball and so like that in entrepreneurship is like the most coveted position to be able to stand in is like if you're a ball player you could build things you can invest you could hire you can manage you could fire you can do all these different things but it takes practice and and and it's difficult to do just like anything and so like being the ball player is really what warren buffett figured it out what jeff bezos figured out what he elon musk figured it out and that involves not only building things but also capital markets and it looks like michael taylor figured out a way to tap the capital markets in unique way it's a good transition because you went from top bitcoin crypto guy as like main brand and then you know it's like oh doing this real estate conference pops buying these you know these sweaty businesses you've showed some range i guess in the last few years i don't know if as a hedge or just where your curiosity went or whatever but talk to us about what what are some of the non crypto weird stuff that you've been looking at i know you were looking at some like what was the the line painting business talk about that talk about some of the weird stuff you're doing and why you do so i've always been doing this stuff i just never talked about it publicly you know if you go all the way back to when i was a kid like we always had some business we were trying to do i i i built two companies right out of college and in between those companies i remember that like i taught myself how to do like wordpress websites and i would go around to small businesses and be like hey pay me five grand like build website right and like that was gonna be like some big thing but it was just like a way to figure out like could you gain a skill could you solve a problem could you make money right do it over and over again and so over the last couple of years we we've been doing quite a bit of work and building companies or or trying to buy these businesses but crypto definitely was the thing that i think most people weren't talking about online that we felt like we had a unique kind of narrative or perspective the line business is a perfect example so i was reading the biography on elon musk and in it every sunday he would have the tesla team bring him a car and they would take him for a test drive of the self driving tesla and so there was just one area on the highway where it was kind of like a really hard turn and the car kept messing up the human had to intervene and grab the steering wheel because the car wouldn't recognize recognized that this turn was there and so what the engineers figured out was that the road the painting on the road was actually degraded down and so they were like well we're tired of elon yelling at us every sunday so they called the department of transportation and we're like hey get out here and like rep paint this road so the car stops messing up and so they fixed the road not the car then the car can drive correctly elon stops yelling so like they just solved kind of their like local problem but it made me think i was like wait a second these like line strip or line painting businesses are going to be exponentially more valuable in the future because as self driving becomes prevalent on the road governments are going to mandate that the roads are painted more often so that the cars from a safety perspective can actually drive correctly and so you probably can go buy these line strip businesses right now for like three times eb and you start to scale them and then as the government mandates them paint the road more often like revenue will go up there'll be multiple expansion and there's kind of this thesis of like you have smart cars on dumb roads but like everyone wants to go compete with like the smart cars but maybe actually the best way to make money is like go figure out how to take the dumb roads and just make them smart and interact with the tech if we really wanna dig into like the nitty gritty details like one of the hardest parts for people coming from the tech industry in doing deals with people who are not in the tech industry is there is a drastic asymmetric information advantage that tech people have what i mean by that is like let's say that you guys start a company tomorrow and you're like hey i'm gonna raise a million dollars on a safe note we pretty much like you can pitch me we can have a conversation back and forth that we can come up with the terms the safe document is already pre drafted and we can have that done in like two or three days like tech has basically figured out these long term oriented people reputation is really important there's some baseline shared knowledge and so deals get done very quickly and there's not a lot of friction and then because it's a power law game investors are incentivized to invest in tons of companies and founders understand that like there's tons of capital available when you go into these like blue collar kind of industrial manufacturing businesses like sometimes these people in building the company like the line driving business they've been building for twenty years this is like their life and when we were having the negotiations with them like we were starting out with like what's the point of the board of directors right like like there's an education that goes into it and so it makes getting deals done very very hard because of that friction that exists and so it's almost easier to do deals with people who who've done lots of deals than it is to do deals with somebody who's done their first deal like this is the big one and and so like we're still trying to figure out how to solve that problem but it's just something that we've noticed that you know doesn't get talked a lot about online what were the numbers of this company i don't wanna say because the they're they're super great guys but these businesses they're bigger than you think i've i've looked at a bunch of these businesses so there's like line strip another one is like traffic cones and barricades so if you think of that business like every construction site you have to have these things there from a safety standpoint it's it's legally mandated and it's like the greatest real estate business in the world they can buy like a a hip height you know like four foot wide barricade they buy this for like four hundred bucks and then they rent them out for like five to eight dollars a day and once you're on you're not allowed to leave the site with like the equipment can't leave until this job's done so like laguardia that was under construction for like ten years right so like somebody was just renting them cones paying getting paid five six seven dollars a day for ten years and so like those businesses are really interesting what ends up happening is my my buddy brent be sure has got this quote he says small businesses don't stay small on purpose so a lot of times what happens is they'll dominate like a local area but they have very hard time kinda scaling and so you can expect kind of revenue is like mid seven figures usually they can get to like about a million million and a half dollars in eb and then the owners are taking quite a bit of compensation for themselves like yep if you're taking five hundred thousand dollars and you live in kind of like a a rural area or not a major metro like you're rich right and so it's pretty good job to have especially with the freedom it comes with and and do that for a decade like you know you got paid five million bucks and and probably living pretty good there's also like a generational thing so my father is a small business owner my father law's is a small business owner my father owns a a produce brokerage meaning buys fruit from a farmer and sells it to walmart my father owns a moving company and i'm i've like asked them questions like like do you do have managers like how does that work and they're like what do you what do you mean i only have eighteen employees like we don't like there aren't really meetings like i don't do one on ones and or it'll they'll be like well how do you do you just like do everything like yeah everything goes up through me or like well how you hire it's like well usually just one of the people who work there might i have a buddy who hopefully like it could do okay you know what i mean like there's not a the mindset is when when you come from i think a different generation and also you come from poverty and it's blue collar you're like dude i make eight hundred grand a year i'm rich like why what do you mean why would i do anything else you what i mean i also think that there's this element of like ambition can kill companies if you're in the wrong business and so like we all get excited because like he wants like we're going to mars right like i'm gonna put a chip in someone's brain right that's awesome but i i have one friend he's got a retail store he's got three locations in the united states one of them is new york and i was talking to a recently and he's like yeah all of our profit comes with the new york store like actually i might be better off if i shut down the other two stores right and so it's like and when you're in business wants you to expand get bigger like do all these things and he started down that path but you're realized like wait a second like maybe actually the value of this business is that like i know one market really well i picked a great location like it's a great business and if i become ambitious i will suck all the profits out of this business and try to reinvest it and end up just like blowing up and so again if you're running a tech company like you have to be ambitious the whole point is the power law but if you're running some of these other businesses like yeah maybe you don't wanna make more than eight hundred thousand dollars because in order to do that you've gotta double the team size your profit margin goes down your stress level explodes and like the odds of success don't actually line up with how much money you can make and so i do think a lot about like there's like an ambition product and market fit where it only pays to be ambitious in the right market with the right product dude my father when he travels my parents down once they got although they go to florida for six weeks every winter he travels i swear to god with a file cabinet in a phone that you could plug into the wall and a fax machine and he's like well i have to i have my work equipment like i i can't work without this stuff and like i'll get i'll i'll get text from him and i'm like dude are you trying to post on facebook right now like i i this is a facebook post isn't it he's like and that what i just did like and so like the idea of like evolving to some of these tools it's like dude i'm like i don't give a shit about growing this i'm just gonna like bail and it's gonna die like there is no there is no exit what are you talking about the exit when i die i i also think that small businesses like if people don't understand what goes into running these small businesses like you just are like oh of course the business just runs it's somewhere like a tech company but small businesses make up fifty percent of jobs in america and the country is literally built off the backs of these small businesses right in terms of gdp growth and all this stuff and we all probably know stories you know similar to this we're like they're going around their equipment i know somebody who's an extended family member he has a business where it it's like a chemical business and he like mixes things in order to create the product and he won't fly anywhere he will only drive because when he can drive he can put all of the materials in his car and then he'll like show up like when i was living at florida he showed up and he's like i like take over the garage and i walked in there and i was like this looks like a like a science lab like he was like like lab yeah and then he makes the product and they goes to the post office every day and like drops the product off so they can ship it and like all the stuff and you're just like man this is incredible what goes into building these companies compared to like the tech world we're just like oh like somebody like wrote some code and just like operates twenty four seven three sixty five money keeps coming into my account because stripes are awesome it's still a whole different way to kinda of like play the game of business dude there's a great quote in venture capital of like you you can't put rocket fuel into a car like rocket feels great but if you put it into a car the car explodes and that's what your your ambition thing is is like that you ambition placed into the wrong vehicle will often just result in pain not growth and i had heard a another interesting thing i was talking to a guy who's one of the probably one of the most successful vcs in the last i don't know twenty years and he he was talking about ai and he went and he met with a guy who was like a mega billionaire private equity type of dude and he goes to this guy this guy's like eighty years old or something and he goes to him he says hey you know here i wanna get your advice your wisdom on what i should be investing it know i feel like the whole world is changing ai super exciting i wanna be in the game i wanna be investing in the right ai projects but i'm not sure like open an ai i could kill any project at any given moment if they just released any feature the valuations are a little bit crazy what should i do and the the ad year old b guy goes think you should buy railroads and he goes shit and he goes well when you know buffet has this great quote which is that change is the enemy of the investor in in in their style of of compounding right because you if you want something that's durable that's gonna compound over twenty years you don't want to be in the industry of rapid change where the leader one year could be gone in in year three that's not it's great on the way up but it's terrible on the way down right and so he was like it sounds like everything is changing so much he's like my approach is go find things that are not gonna change to probably have less people interested in them right now they're probably undervalued it and what i like about your line strip business pop is that it's a mix of both so it's like a ai proof type of business because it's painted lines on roads but it's also gonna benefit from all the advances in ai like one of the big advances is self driving cars and so you would be the beneficiary without the competition versus if you said i'm gonna go create a better lidar system or a you know simulation system for for self driving cars okay cool but your competing gets the smartest people on earth in the most competitive field ever where technology is gonna like make everything obsolete every three years and that that's just a very hard way to win somebody's gonna win for sure but but it's a very hard way to win versus what you're talking about the line driving business if somebody's listening to this and they have a line driving business i know how to grow this nationally like please get in touch with me i will help oh like one hundred percent another no don't soul to that suit dude don't be in insane there you relatable of you're relatable guys you know i got a cool baseball hat yeah john is like denim collection over there you don't want pom the suit this guy's on tv he's too busy for you sean have you ever been inside of a home depot your entire life yeah dude i go in there all the time for advice i'm i'm looking for some men can some boys can fix some things in my house i said what it was case my cargo one are the other like maybe an extension of this is not only like what's gonna change what's not gonna change but like can you bring fresh ideas to old industries so there's this new podcast that i've been listening to that's fantastic it's called rain makers and it's this guy out in that way basically he's like trying to find investors that no one's ever heard of before and so he went and found them like and i think it's not like no one's heard of but just like the new generation hasn't heard of and so one of the guys that he profile was philip ans who he owned a bunch of real estate he a bunch of like oil and gas bought railroads and there's like a tie through of this guy's career where he basically tried to find like value no one understood so he'd would buy a railroad companies not for the railroads but he'd buy because there was oil underneath the ground right or he bought up like a bunch of local sports teams because he figured out a playbook of how he could get the stadiums for free right then he have bunch of real estate but the one i loved was he bought regal cinema the movie theater chain when all of the movie theaters were crashing and everyone everyone's was like oh this is a horrible business like you can't make money on tickets and food and what he realized and that he's like aha moment was for twenty minutes before the movie starts you have a captured audience that are just sitting there looking at the screen and so he started to sell ads and he made the movie theater an ad business and then all of a sudden he completely changed the unit economics and was able like savory cinema became this huge things sold it etcetera and so like one okay like that's awesome but also like part of being a ball player and like understand this i listened that podcast episode and we had a conference coming up and i was like oh my god i have the same thing as the movie theater all these people are gonna be sitting there and so they went to advertisers like this does anyone have a tv commercial that they've already made pay us and we will just like play the commercial in the middle of the conference and we did it and so you like start to realize that not only are you taking new ideas to these old industries but then once you like see it you can bring this across all sorts of different applications and i really think like that is the beauty of what you guys do on my first million but also like these podcasts and and twitter etcetera is it's just like find the ideas and then like capture them and apply them into your situation and this has been going on for a long time but now all these ideas are just much more readily available dude this guy philip have you do you know who this is sean no i've never heard him dude a savage he's super low key but yeah he it started real real estate and oil but then now he owns ae g do you know what that is the entertainment thing yes the entertainment thing it's it's basically i think it's the second largest ticketing service provider behind live nation ae g owns music events like coachella so this old guy he owns coachella he also you know a g buy tickets through there he owns all types of sports magazines he owns a couple sports teams he owns entertainment parks that he's he's like prolific this guy's super prolific you guys don't wanna know something else about him pop you probably didn't realize this i was reading i read a lot of history i bought this book about the american west this fucking guy the author he wrote a she wrote the book unlike america expanding into the west this guy is super prolific this guy feel i'm how do you say his name philip phil ae g is literally ent entertainment group right is the ae g he he's super legit he's amazing this guy is amazing i i i've been fascinated by him but he's pretty low key like there's not i don't i don't think he could find a biography on him he's very under the radar this guy super fascinating that's cool okay i like it i'm sold the that he wrote the book was a great twist by the way that is not what i thought you were gonna say at all very fascinating guy can we talk about pom list so we have the segment sean we have to do like a redo on this segment so it started out right with like years ago when my wife wanted to work somewhere i was like where is a company where you can own the stock and it could like ten x potentially but it's like a really safe place to work where it's got five hundred ish employees you can get good maternity well well it's cool i i think it's worth saying well how old were you guys at this time roughly this was i was for twenty seven so she must have been twenty four she's twenty four years old most people when they think about a job they're just like i want a job what kind of job good job alright like what what do you want you don't know what you you don't really know what you're looking for whereas sam you win all capital all on you're like look this is not a job this is an investment you're trading your time for restricted stock units we're gonna pick the best rs package that's out there and we're you're gonna think about this as one concentrated bet where you're gonna basically get i don't know let's say a lot of these companies would give you maybe forty fifty k a year of stock in addition to let's just reduce round numbers like i don't know a hundred fifty k a year of salary and so you're gonna get over a four year period you're gonna get two hundred thousand dollars of stock and what you were saying was like how do you become a millionaire right you take that two hundred thousand of stock over that four years how do you become a millionaire without having a great idea without becoming an entrepreneur without becoming a great investor without without doing anything right no capital no expertise you're gonna join as a as employee number i don't know not even in the top hundred right fifteen hundred fifteen hundred right yeah at a company that we all know about we can touch and feel the product and we're not betting on thin air here and that fascinated me you told me about this and then we created a whole thing around called sarah's list around her name which was what are the ten companies or so that we think fit this criteria today and we did this and then we we did like round of it and they all turned out to be or you know we hit like seven out of ten that would have hit the criteria that we had we had touched on pump we asked you to do your version of this pumps list do you have any i we didn't we just told you about the prompt we didn't hear anything you had to say what are the companies today that you think fit this criteria we could you could go be i don't know employee five hundred or employee one thousand get two hundred k of stock and might become a millionaire just off of the company continuing to grow and chug along these sort of later stage private the company or public or private so i broke it up into three different buckets the first two are like ten x reputation so i don't think there's ten x left in the stock necessarily but i do think that if you go enjoy now they're still like kinda seen as cool and new and fast growing and so your reputation and kind of your resume with ten those two are like pretty simple open ai and and i think are both at this point where if you go and you join like you may be able to make a couple hundred thousand dollars a year and like there's probably some upside but open at like eighty five billion dollars basically you have to build a trillion dollar company to get you know ten to twelve x and so i think that is like you can make a really nice salary you can probably get some upside maybe you know two to five x is like kind of base case but really why you would join one of those companies is because the reputation and kinda resume ten it is kind of the the value that you're getting there andrew was on our original list my friend we've we've won up to you on that one i don't even think open i really existed the the time it probably existed as it's like a research lab at the time we did that episode and it was not on our radar we we missed on that one yeah well when i i i think that you know these companies that's how they should mature right they should be like ten x economic opportunities and then ten x reputation it never works the other way like there's no company that there's a ten x reputation opportunity first and then there's a ten x economic opportunity like the economics have to be captured to some degree and people be like that company is successful and then that's where the reputation kinda follows so let me ask you you worked at facebook and snap to you know blue chip logo type of things but also at one you know at different times have been incredible you know financial things too when you join those did you think about them from a logo collector first mentality or a stock collector first mentality what in your calculus i'm sure both were were beneficial but which one was more beneficial in your case yeah i mean facebook probably the best example i built and sold this company it was kind of like in social media analytics we used to bunch the apis i'd gotten to know some people at facebook we sold the company i like made enough money to like make more money than my friends who had jobs but not enough to like retire or anything like that and the guys at facebook like what are you gonna do now and like for whatever reason i never even thought the like facebook has like you know a building with like hundreds of employees so i like i was just kinda like this thing that i used and i talked the guy over email and so i wanna come out here and like interview for a job and i was like cool what job like product manager i know no clue what a product manager was so on the way there on my kindle i bought the art of product management which is the book about product management i read it i went into the interview and i just reg everything i remembered from the book came being bullshit but i was just like i mean like that's kinda what our product manager does right it's like they kinda just like get enough information and then just like say some you know buzz words right and like get the product out the door and so like definitely huge impostor since when i started working there and and i remember the last interview actually was with sam lesson who now is like know very well known etcetera and sam got on and i didn't know what to expect because they're were kinda like hey like this is like the ball guy right so like you know be on your a game and he got on and he was like let's talk about beacon and i was like what and like the beat facebook beacon that just come out like rfid stuff and he just wanted to brainstorm and i was like this place is different right like like that's not like a normal interview so the reason i took the job was not the money like it it was good salary but it wasn't anything crazy this was at the beginning of twenty fourteen the stock was probably like fifty bucks oh you got a ten x or then well i sold it yeah the and bought bitcoin wait but were you about to say the reason you joined was to kind of the people and the culture was different because i the first two companies i built i couldn't get them to grow past a certain point and so i pretty much came to is like four i like i go to business school and like pay to try to get this education where i can just go join the people who seem to be like the best in the world at growing things which was the facebook growth folks and they'll pay me and like that literally was the evaluation and so i went to facebook and they blew away my expectations like sure you get some you know resume of benefit and all that kind of stuff but what i found in my career is kinda like college like no one actually cares where you went to college after like maybe the first like three to five years of your business career working at a place like facebook unless you're one of the first maybe like two to five hundred employees it kinda just is like alright you're like kinda legit you know you worked at a place that has some sort of high bar but now there's eighty thousand people that worked at facebook as of like the end of last year so it's kinda like eighty thousand people got in right you know it does it have to same you know kinda cache as it did a decade ago unclear do dude sam damn ever tell you when i interview at facebook do you didn't know i did not know that so when we were going through the acquisition process facebook it was gonna go we were gonna sell facebook not not a not twitch they had the hire offer the better offer and they flew us out to to seattle i guess is where we went and they're were like oh you know as a formality like your whole team has to go through this like kinda like leveling things so you you interview you're all in but like you have to get leveled and you you gotta do it too and i was like okay great i'm excited i've always wanted to know what this process is like but then a part of me was like shit better not blow this one right like the emperor has no clothes let me make sure i don't blow this whole deal here by by by going in wrong so i do the interview process during the interview i was kinda like you pumped i was just making up like i literally just making things up every single question they asked i had not i had no i had no idea what the answer should be and you know this is completely out in the in the blue because i done the interview process with the other people who were looking at buying us right and in theirs it was like tell me about a time where you showed resilience and i was like oh yeah whatever you my this girl rejected me in the seventh grade but i didn't give up eighth grade i got right like whatever it was like some stupid like character type of tell me a story tell me about a time you disagreed with somebody but you've found resolution facebook was different they go okay let's pretend that you just released a feature and you know you come in the next day and the chart of the usage looks like this and then you showed this curve which like you know it was like normal and then like drops off a cliff and he's like but it's not around the feature you released but this is this adjacent feature here's what the usage looks like walk me through like alright how would you approach that what would you do next and i was like and i'm so dumb but i was like wide go i'm i'd go ask the guy who works on that i'd be like hey do you know what's going on with this feature and they're like okay i like that and then what would you do i was like well then i'd see what he says and then based somebody he says i'd lead to my next question if he doesn't know then i would do this what a stupid interview no it was a i was honestly it a great interview it was the best review ever done all of the questions were like this where there were real real scenarios where they got you to basically it wasn't a riddle like some abstract riddle about like how many toilet seats are there in bay area and it wasn't canned you know pre prepped like character questions where you just cherry pick one example that makes you look good versus the you know reality i was like oh there this is a problem solving job and they're trying to see how i problem solve and there were all different variations of try to solve this problem but it took a real problem not like a very arbitrary problem that like doesn't even it's not even relevant to what's going on what level did you get now what what was it last last last pod i don't mean to keep my own horn but beep beep the guy told me that it was the highest it was the it was of all m and a that they had done it was the highest like feedback rate that they ever got now what he said that i knew i had been pretty much bullshit the whole time during the interview i was like i respected them even i'm like these guys just wanna win the deal like that's clearly what they want they don't care about my interview they know that they didn't just flatter me and that this is gonna totally work as it is working right now i could feel myself blushing i was like wow these guys are really smart they they're throughout the actual interview results and they just told me what i wanted to hear to get me to pick them because they already have decided before the interview that they wanted to buy our company anyways the the last thing was say the there were so many people that were at facebook that you've never heard of because there's people you know of at facebook they're z they're cheryl then there's like the cha off level then there's even like sam lesson the guys i had talked i they interviewed with us i guarantee you guys have never heard him do you know this guy vi raj and do you know this guy vi you probably never heard of these guys right they were so impressive these guys were so impressive and not just impressive like in the interview then their track record was impressive i was so what are you i working on here at facebook i've never you know heard of you guys they're like well we built the games like the html games inside of messaging and i was like okay how how how'd that guy like just some people use that they're like well honestly it kind of failed in this way but there was just one part it that was actually pretty successful and it brings in like whatever like it brings in five hundred million a year now and they're like you know that was like kind of like okay hit but our big hit was working on this and he's like yeah this guy of vi he's like you know how office went from like microsoft office went from something you down buy a disc and you download and you're like type in the key you pay thirty dollars once to like this thing in the cloud office three sixty five that you pay every month for he goes yeah he created that like he was at microsoft he's like created at his desk nobody kind believes that that's direction they should go he did it anyways on his own nights and weekends and then i kinda like powered that through and got that approved now that's like the way that microsoft works and i was like you guys are the no names at facebook holy shit the level of talent that this displace is insane dude it is insane i remember taking tubers there when when my wife went to facebook and i would just walk around the campus and i would just see some of the conversations and here some of the conversations and i was just starting to hustle which is just a daily newsletter and i was pumped thought i had a hundred thousand people a day reading it and i just remember walking around and i'm like i'm i'm a piece of shit i'm nothing they're like i am nobody give me one of these facebook vests i want one of these i'm in did you see the vending machine where they have like macbook chargers that you could just like push a three and a just a giant like brick charger will drop out for you i'm like dude i just bought four computers on craigslist for eight hundred dollars a piece and that was a big deal for me and like i'm out here and you guys have a vending machine with mouse and doctor dr headphones in it like what the fuck did outside me up i'm in the thing that sean was talking about with the interview so there's three different tracks in the interviews when i was there and i would i didn't believe i was a good interviewer like i didn't know how to pick talent basically and so one of the things that you can do is you can like volunteer to do the interviews more often as a product manager like they don't have like oh that's the person who does all the hiring but the current product managers hire the perspective new product managers and so like the current team kind of like does the interviews right and so of these three tracks the one that sean talked about was the favorite one that i like to do because it was like the most practical and so the example i used to give is like you launched something fifty percent your traffic is down you come me in monday morning what do you do i probably did over a hundred interviews in like an eighteen month period you hear all these answers and there's only one time ever somebody said something to me and i immediately was like higher like strong and hire he goes i would immediately alert the entire team we have a problem like everyone else would jump to solve the problem but it was so obvious like this guy's worked on team teams so for he understands like what happens in these scenarios like communication is key like everything that was wrapped in this like one single sentence and i remember just being like man you can tell the greats from like the pretty goods in you know a thirty minute conversation just walking through a practical example because all of the lessons learned show up and and so i do think that's one of the strongest things that facebook does in in terms of like talent filtering what what are the other companies that you like alright so there's a a bunch of companies that i'm gonna put in like the middle bucket which are like the ten x potentials eight sleep i think it's a huge business really i think they're huge do you think it's ten x though you go it's huge but not a business no i know yeah i i think eight sleep so like you know look i i i'm very good friends with a lot of folks there i think that they are probably one of the best operators like team of operators they do a lot of revenue they have only like a eighty or eighty five employees i believe that they've publicly said that the company been profitable and they're selling a hardware product plus all of the software and some of the things that they're building now are just like really cool and i think a lot about like ten x economic opportunity is not just like hey can we make more money but you also have a really really strong mission and so their whole idea of like for eight hours a day no one tends to a human can they compress that can they make it healthier can they you know do things like body scans etcetera like all these kinda cool things i think that's a huge opportunity for someone the second is var the whole idea of like let's go to space is not new but let's go to space to help us back here on earth is huge and so what var does is they've created a space manufacturing facilities they launched them up into space they're right now manufacturing drugs in zero gravity and then they're bringing it back to earth and so i think that that's a pretty big one i explain that i forgot what's the reason to do the manufacturing in space it's a little unclear as like what all of the reasons are gonna be so far but two quick ones are like there are some drugs that it's either very difficult or not possible to currently manufacture you know with gravity so like zero gravity is a huge component of it and then the second thing is if they're able to do this correctly it actually may be cheaper to do some of this in space than it is on earth and so it's like their big macro bed is just like use space for the benefit of earth rather than everyone else who wants to go to space to like conquer mars or yeah the moon or or or whatever else but dude how does that make sense how could it be cheaper to do in something in space you have to get get to space in a rocket and you have to have labor in space like how you don't even be cheaper labor so that's the thing is they've built this like automated manufacturing like box basically and so you don't need any labor and then now like the other thing if you remember is like rocket launches are super cheap compared to what they historically were and then it's not like spacex it's like getting a rocket just for var right though like bringing tons of things up there all at once and so now you have like shared cost of an already you know ten x or more cheaper rocket and so the math ends up working in in a really interesting way we got we gotta get that guy was him dylan we gotta get him on the pod explain yes be like and i'm not gonna let him do no hand wavy shit i'm gonna be like no no oh the box manufacturers in space and it's cheaper than renting a place in lexington like alright walk me through that line by line there's no way right like this is crazy you guys bring him on and we'll see what he says he's obviously right like he's he's he's not wrong i just don't get it and i want somebody to explain it to be because there's gotta be able be bothered there that are like how does this work exactly alright everyone quick break because i've got a thrill of the chill i've got something to shi so here's the deal about eight weeks ago i released this new podcast called money wise will we break down different people's financials meaning we look at what their income is we look at how much money they spend and they break down their portfolio and then we'll dive deep on a certain topic that's a little psychological like what what do you spend on that makes you happy things like that well i said i was only gonna make more episodes a few people begged me to make more because they're really hard to make and you did so i made more so we have a season of seven episodes the first one's released today right now it's live in this first episode it's with the guy who spends roughly two hundred fifty thousand dollars a month and we broke down exactly what he spends his money on his net worth his portfolio everything it's pretty surprising that people give out this information and so i'm really proud of this podcast so you can check it out the first episode is live now look up money wise so you can find it on youtube but right now it's not video it's only audio but the audio is on youtube and then spotify itunes wherever you get your podcast check it out and then tweet at me thus sam par let me know what you guys think because i'll make more after the these next seven but again only if you love them and i need to know if you actually do so it's called money wise it's a podcast by hampton my company join hampton dot com and let me know what you guys think the sam par as is my twitter alright back to the pod so the the third one shy to share this one because sam's head's gonna explode but figure ai definitely i think is one so for those that don't understand what they're doing you know human labor is becoming a huge problem where there's just not enough people to do all the jobs people get sick their tired they'll only work so many hours all that kind of stuff and so this rise of like robotics but not just like boston dynamic like dog robots actual what they call humanoid robots so these are like human looking things that walk around a warehouse they could pick things up they can pack things they can kind of do all the things that human could do and one of the best things i i texted sean this like one of the best ways to evaluate a company is like what enemies they pick and so here the guy brett who runs fig ai he basically picked elon musk as like his competitor and so like you gotta be a little crazy you gotta be a little ambitious you gotta raise a lot of money this guy's raised you know i think over a billion dollars now to go after this opportunity but the other thing that's really interesting is like as an investor historically people paid attention to demographics how old a population was you know how fast it was growing all that now you're gonna have to actually pay attention to robotics and bella sri of ava os talked a lot about this where if you don't have enough people in society you're glad to replace them with robots and so measuring like how many robots are coming off the production line maybe a better sense of like where you should be investing versus the human demographics but i think that's a big one once they raised their first round at three hundred million dollars i went toured their like factory or whatever and i went back i go sarah let's move there you're gonna get a job there we gotta and she's like i don't know if you're think about robotics i'm like i already bought the books you got some breed tonight we're gonna get you to work out it's gonna be okay we're gonna get you caught up it's like i'm the tiger mom yeah i was like don't worry we're we're enrolled you in k on you you'll be ready in three weeks yeah the coffee is brewing it's gonna be a late night so come on chop chop let's get to work the i've got three more for you is t i don't know if you guys have heard of of this company it's one of the fastest company growing companies in founder funds portfolio what they figured out is similar to like uber where you press a button and a car shows up all of these light industrial manufacturing facilities they need tons of labor so kind of the other side of the problem that figure going after so that what they do is they go to these like temp work providers but the problem is that the temp work providers she'll be like hey i i need fifty people tomorrow and they're by cool we'll send you thirty that's all they have and then of the thirty that they're supposed to send you like twenty of them show up and five of them are like hungover over from the night before right so it's just like it's a horrible experience it's super expensive all this stuff and this is the company where like the investors brag about the like on their about page like we're a nine nine six company right savages i i met the founders and they were like we have an olympia work ethic and i was like ami like we're just gonna now work everyone you know the truth about this company so i i should have invested in this company i had a chance to invest i was like i and then before i even heard the pitch i said i'm in because i heard something very similar to what you just said pump not the olympia work i think the spelling bee champions work ethic i the guy who started the company went to duke and i know his brother and they both the brothers were like he on the espn spelling be like you know one of them won it and then the the guy who started to trial but he's the guy who fainted mid word you remember that clip of the guy who starts spelling the word he passes out stands up and finishes the word it's the most incredible clip i did not know that espn history forget lebron forget forgive michael jordan this kid starting to spell a word passes out gets up says nothing about passing out and just finish this spelling the word flawlessly was absolutely incredible he's the founder of t when i heard that i'm like i'm in just send me tell me where to wire the detail wire the money and then unfortunately i got too smart to ask my partner who knows a lot about staffing he's like well it could be hard for all these reasons and i was like guess you know more than do i'm just basing this off the spelling beat performance probably believe turns out i should've have just trusted my gut he turns out he's done alright i met him i i met his brother at a party and he had won the the scripts spelling bee right and i seen him on espn i see him at a party i recognized this kid from espn i'm like you i've seen you before i was like you're the spelling kid he's like yeah i'd had you know that was years ago and i go dude this is annoying drunk sean dude dude we wait dude not my name he goes and he goes i don't i don't know your name go is sean and he goes i don't know s h a w n i go no i beat him i beat him as if i spelled something as if you him spelling my name s h a n meant anything and that was the only time i ever interact with this guy the next day i was more than i was like dude how what absolute douche i was last night and i've been hoping to meet this guy again so i could apologize for this fifty years ago like for sorry i meet you came now we know why he didn't send you the wired details no that was his brother yeah this his brother two different guys he began there was his brother became like a very successful poker player and then it did a bunch of interesting things that way okay so i think spelling bee is like one of those hot beds of of like if you can get obsessed and about this like intellectual pursuit you know it means two things your parents are incredibly over bearing and you're incredibly smart and so you know that usually will lead to to success hundred percent next one is play dot ai so i i i've invested in most of these companies the only one open and and fig ai i i wish that i had but place her they basically this israeli guy and he was like hey i'm gonna use like cell phones to create better mobile analytics not like what you're doing on the phone but like where you are so originally his like pitch was like hey i'm gonna like be able to tell people when you drive into the parking lot and then like what aisle you walk through in the store and we're gonna sell this analytics like really really granular kind location data they just publicly announce that they're doing a hundred million dollars in annual revenue and so when you look at that again like it's for real estate right that that's where they've seen a lot of people but like i think also like some hedge funds and a couple of other folks by the data as well you know a hundred million dollars is pretty much der risked it and this is like if you wanna have a career like b to b you know software analytics like obviously you're not gonna go like an and right this kind of like off brand off industry but i think places are like still got probably a ten x potential upside what's their valuation in their latest round i think the latest public one is like a billion dollars so kinda like ten times revenue so it's not hard to see a business that you know already doing a hundred million dollars in annual revenue growing pretty quickly you saw it's got some upside to it this was probably my favorite one of yours so far you got any other ones you had one more maybe i've got two more that are kind of related so i everyone's all excited about the detox stuff i i invested this a company called rain maker and so rain maker makes it rain they're flying precision drones into clouds and they're dropping chemicals in the clouds to make it rain and so like that's kinda crazy that is probably the risk one wow pretty cool url and then kinda simultaneous to that if you look at like what's like the cyber security version of all these deep tech companies there's this guy joshua stein who left i think he was on the national security council in the trump administration and he like realized wait a minute but there's no companies that protect all of our public infrastructure so like the example he gave me was imagine what happens is someone can hack like the water treatment plants and change the ph levels of the water and have like massive you know carnage or like you know really really screw with a like a local area by simply hacking this like one facility that's public infrastructure and doing something that nefarious and so he's creating a company called gal again it's super small probably you know on the higher end of the risk spectrum but just like a really cool mission of if you're able to protect public infrastructure there's like unlimited demand for this type of service and you can see how these businesses could get quite big given you know all the concerns with our adversaries and people kinda getting better at cyber warfare etcetera dude i love that idea that's a great right idea that's great and and what was that called gal g a l v a n i c k wow that one and this make rain thing are are pretty wild yeah they're the rain maker one like people have been doing it's called cloud seeding people have been doing that for a while and they're specifically doing in like china and the middle east and stuff but there's a world where like not only can they make it rain but also if you can change the weather pattern like you may be able to like prevent hurricanes from hitting land and you know doing stuff like that now of course you get into this weird world that like the second someone's like hey i can like change the weather people are like right no god like yeah you're trying to play god whatever but but i think that where they're starting in terms of like going to farmers and being like hey you know get what is basically precipitation in this in the cloud just to fall it's a worthwhile mission and and the the founder is awesome he's got a mu he he works out he's a squat rack in the office and he's just like we are going to be successful so you know let's see what happens maybe i should do that for all my portfolio companies just ji them a squat rack right just increased returns in my portfolio twenty percent i mean there there is definitely gotta be some sort of study that like one people are just are in better shape like if more energy you think clear you know all that kind of stuff dude we gotta ask you about two things this sal bet you did explain this this was this was baller what san did know about this no what happened so i had a bunch of eth ethereum back from when i was mining it and it was just kinda like sitting there and gone up a lot and at towards the end of last year i was sitting in there and i was just was like why am i holding this like deciding to hold an asset is an active decision every day so i'm basically like saying i should go along ethereum every day that i don't sell this and i'd been scared about sugar tax is and like all like the normal lives you tell yourself as like why not to make a decision and i just said to myself like okay if i i'm gonna sell this and not buy more bitcoin what else would i buy and so i like went through a bunch of other cryptocurrencies and i was just like i think is going to go up a lot it's gonna go up a lot more bitcoin i think it's gonna go up a lot more than an ethereum in this specific bull market because a smaller market cap there's a lot of energy and excitement around it and and and all that and so over the years i've learned how to come like put positions on which i think is also like a very under discussed thing i didn't like sell everything and then just buy this asset instead what i did is i bought a little bit of salon at forty eight dollars it started to go up a little bit more and usually when that happens people are like oh cool i was right instead i doubled the bet at fifty five like the position is going in your favor and so i doubled down because it's telling me like the marcus tummy me i'm right it kept going up i then sold one hundred percent of the ethereum and i bought sauna at seventy three dollars i think it was and so it gave me like a blended price around like sixty five bucks and so salon just went on a tear with a hundred and twenty dollars and i was like wow that was awesome like hopefully it keeps going and that was it i was like done but then the price started to fall and as it fell it fell from like one twenty to one ten to one hundred and i woke up one day i was at eighty dollars and over the years i just learned like nothing changed with the thesis i got no more a theory of to sell to like you know convert over so like i'm going into the bank account and i just went got more cash and bought it at eighty which happened to be about a thirty percent drawdown which historically encrypted has been like a pretty good spot and then it's ripped all the way up to like one ninety ish and so it's been a great trade but also it is i'm only able to do it because i've been doing this long enough and like learn how to put the positions on how to think about like when the position goes in your favor to add not like sell and take profits but you also have to know what you own and like i don't think i'll own on like five or ten years from now it's very much like for the next year i'm very bullish on this and then like we'll see what happens whereas bitcoin like i'll hold forever and don't think that i'll ever sell it first of all i mean kind of very you know good trade so first of all they're very very well done not not easy to do what you just described the psychology around what you just described is i think more important than on the why but i do wanna ask you you said the word thesis on sol so i have a buddy so who has a insane amount of he owns like forty or fifty million dollars of and i think this guy's nuts for doing he's a very smart guy in general but i'm i asked him i'm like why why do you own this absurd amount of salon this is like what do you know that i don't know please tell me so i can go by it if you have some like incredible thesis and he's like i just i like i think it's gonna go up that number go up thesis and he's like well i think it's gonna be a bull market in a bull market it's usually these kind of like second third third fourth fifth coins that like get the highest run up i see a lot of energy in the and the people like these like all of a sudden it starts to sound a lot like i don't know like you know we're talking like horoscope type language for me and so i'm like and i've been telling them i'm like dude please just sell this thing and then he's like oh i just feel like the energy i feel like i see it a lot on twitter it's like my god dude are you sure that this is the reason to have forty or fifty million dollars of that is an absurd amount of this thing yeah on one hand it sounds crazy you're like oh it's like the energy whatever on the other hand like in in this person's defense what i would say is when i first started investing somebody told me like follow the developers like that's like a great investing strategy and so there is like a lot of development activity that's shifting the other thing is there is a pretty like well thought out investment strategy of like i wanna buy the things that everyone's gonna buy tomorrow today rather like i like if everyone else is gonna build a thesis around something then i wanna buy it before they do like be rare that becomes consensus and i love the george sw quote he's like when i see a bubble i rush in right like like the whole point is that bubbles are kinda like go bigger and further than you think that they can and so let's just say that like is a bubble selling an asset at the beginning of a bull market is usually an encrypted like a pretty bad strategy but also as assets get bigger the returns go down and so i don't think it's crazy to say like oh there's a lot of activity around this there's a really strong narrative or meme there's tons of coins and and things that are being launched on this and bitcoin of ethereum and salon probably all go up but if you had to pick one of the three that goes up the most well it's probably those smaller market gap asset that likely will outperform and and so i don't think it's like the craziest theory the question is what is your thesis on when to sell and that's what people in crypto including myself over the years like we have messed that up over and over and over again because timing markets is nearly impossible and when an asset goes up hundreds of percent you're like well of course it's gonna double from here and then next you know is down fifty percent you're like shit so what are you thinking with the salon what do you gonna do my theory in crypto now is selling is less to do with price levels like like in the public markets people will hold of stock and they're like okay if this ever gets over valued i'm selling i'm trimming the position in crypto it's much more cyclical and so i actually think that selling is more about what where are we in the cycle at time than it is like value right because there it's hard to like what is the value versus price and this is over overpriced or under price like it it's very difficult to do for these assets so i think i'll about it a lot more as like is it the end of this coming year is it you know the beginning of next year is that the summer of twenty twenty five like there's some timeframe frame that i'll come up with and i'm i i don't care what the valuations are like i'm just selling because it seems like the right time in the cycle more so than i have a price target for any one of these assets what was the second thing you're gonna ask him about a sean andrew tate pompey interviewed to before he was tate you you went you were on tape before tate what's the guy like you you met him in person right i did meet him in person he did an interview together in miami why'd did you interview him at that time was he kind of big is that was it like kind of interesting person or what what was the context i don't really think that he had maybe it's said a couple of crazy things on online like crazy in the sense you know people were like oh whatever rig reacting to it but you know he's a four time world champion kick boxer we had like damn a couple times i actually thought that he was just like an interesting person from the perspective of like he had a lot of commentary about things that pb there weren't willing to say or like made me think and didn't mean i agree with everything is just like when you when you find those people you kinda like hey tell me all your world using and then like i'll sift through the bullshit and figure out like what i agree with and what i don't and so i interviewed them and he said some like things that i was like oh i i can't release this interview like you know this is kinda like a little little spicy and so what was interesting is i will was like hey i know if we're gonna like actually ever release this thing like let's just kinda put it on ice and and we'll go from there and then a year later like society had changed culture had changed and he was started to like become much bigger he went a couple called podcast he said that a lot of the exact same things and people would didn't have a problem with it so like it it's interesting like he was saying the same thing for like a year or two years but actually culture became a little bit more acceptable of some of the commentary and including things around like you know the vaccine and like that type of stuff and and like i think people just had more information to kind of evaluate these situations and so i was like alright it's still a little spicy but like let's release it and one of the like final points to deciding whether we're were gonna release it or not was i didn't really care so much about the like really hardcore perspectives as much as like who are you as a person like how do you make money like kinda like you the business and the person behind these thoughts what was his business at the time hustle university like his course he he had a bunch of them and they're like online businesses he you know he described them actually there was a first time that ever a podcast episode i'd done was like cited in articles where people were like writing hit pieces or like you know cri him and then they were like referencing things on the podcast so i'd get like a google alert notification like oh like you've been mentioned in like the new yorker or whatever and i'm like must be awesome like obviously i'm a cool guy and then you go and you're like oh i'm in an article where they're like you know it's talking about misogyny and like all these things i'm like oh okay and so at the end of that interview he he asked me he's like what's the one thing you disagree with me today and when i say to him in the interview is i said to him i said every single thing that you're saying has like this like kernel of truth but then you like extract it and have this like bombastic rapper that basically is gonna go viral online and he kinda like cracks a little bit and breaks character and he's just like oh you're a smart man he like shakes my hand and i think like that was the biggest takeaway was people don't become viral and successful without being highly intelligent and he very well understood the human psychology and the way the internet and so he had a message he wanna get that message out to people he was able to communicate in a very effective way and so people might not agree with everything he said but if you look at his tactics they have pretty much become standard in a lot of people's like marketing today and so people kinda like saw this guy be successful on the internet get a message out and now you have a bunch of companies and individuals that are trying to replicate it and maybe it's not the same message but like that structure was pioneering and so you've gotta be able to like evaluate people and say hey i understand you for who you are i agree with something you say i disagree with other things you say and then like can i learn something from you and to me the learning was he really really understood marketing and communicating on the internet in a way that i don't think a lot of people did before they kinda saw what he did yeah i need kinda pay the pay the fucking price for it too well in hindsight like that's the second you know lesson is like don't become the main character right like or if you are you better be ready to pay that price yeah and and it's just you know i i asked myself a look i i have a number of very successful friends who nobody's ever heard of before right and i'm sometimes like man that's an amazing life like you like you figured it out you figured out how to be super successful and also no one knows who you are there's a lot of other people who like they enjoy talking to folks right you know patrick david i saw a clip of him recently and he was talking about the fact when he sold his insurance company he was like i wanted to do something for the rest of my life that i enjoyed and talking to people and learning from them was like the thing and so you went and you did all this media stuff and and whatever and so i think you just gotta like know who you are as a person like what are you trying to accomplish professionally what what is your comfort level with like privacy and like personal you know kind of notoriety and it's different for everybody and so yeah if you wanna become the main character then definitely you gotta be ready for you know everything that comes with that good or bet well dude your dressed as the main character today yeah it came on here you're looking good best dressed award for twenty twenty four is in your hand somebody has to come take that belt out of your hands for my first million thanks for coming on dude i just wanna talk to you thanks for having me alright that's a pod i feel like i could rude world i know i could be what i want to put my all in and like a days off on a let's try will never look bag i