The Dark Story Behind Ozempic’s $500B Business Empire

kelly what's the problem with oz drugs like oz and oz struggles oz the topic oz what exactly is oz oz actually represents to me the biggest issue in the country which is that we're basically being poisoned and then drugged for profit can you explain how oz epic actually works essentially it is liquefied an and the problem with recommending it for a long term is that do doctors even have to get go to a nutrition class the first day at stanford med school my sister brought up that somebody with migraines might need to have a dietary intervention her attending surgeons said stop being a pussy that we didn't go to nutrition school is this gonna be the most loop drug ever made it's the the twelve most valuable company in the world this danish company they are the largest fund of politicians five times more than the oil industry they're are fifty percent of tv news spending so they're not only able to influence us they're actually able to buy the news itself when i hear stanford med school professor or the dean of harvard med school are those people that you trust school enough the problem is that we're listening to the experts remember the food curve let's eat our cereals it's the base it's the foundation of your food at my house i think go gu would like the biggest is part of like the pyramid if you don't need to go you're not gonna get to go play the food pyramid was pro by the sugar research council still owned by a company we don't even realize this craft is still owned by philip morris we are h our population i just wanna do like the eighty twenty so i feel good and my family is safe and feels good like what can i do the biggest lie in health care is that the reasons we're getting sick or complicated and the second biggest lie is that these things can't be changed quickly they can i feel like i could rude world i know i could be what i want to from at all then it like a days off on a bow less traveler drunk back kelly what's the problem with oz starting out firing i like it i came off i came on to talk to sam about this i've got some bows to pick with some of his mistakes here they're really i think there's a huge problem with with those oz which is that there's a shortage and they're not enough of it alright well i'm glad we're getting right out of the gates here guys so so here's the fundamental point i'm not concerned with the three hundred fifty pound obese diabetic person like that's between them and their doctor oz actually represents to me the biggest issue in the country which is that we're basically being poisoned and then drugged for profit the largest and fastest growing industry in the country and again largest and fastest growing is the health care industry and ninety five percent of those dollars are around drug and and managing disease of people that are already sick so we've had this explosion of chronic disease kinda of siloed treatments and every single one of them relates to more of the disease so stands more heart disease metformin which thirty percent of people over forty are on i mean it's one of the most widely prescribed drugs right diabetes goes up ss i's now twenty five percent of women are an ss depression and suicide of skyrocketing getting as more ss prescribed literally every single drug you go on the list of every chronic condition the more prescribed the more goes up so the biggest of the all obesity and you can't even wrap your head around this it's a unique problem in america but fifty percent of teens over overweight our obese i mean that's a moral stain on our country the childhood obesity rate in japan is three percent so we have something unique going on where fifty percent of teens are obese and then eighty percent of american adults are overweight obese what's the definition of obesity is there like a celebrity that you can name that is like it's like that's like the threshold do i like do i need to stand up and take my shirt off and then we just we like establish some sort of benchmark here like is andy dyer and parks and rec is that consider obese sometimes it it's actually based on a lot of your is what my sister trying talk a lot about it's based on your personalized biomarkers i mean oftentimes you can be obese and not particularly looked that fat a lot of us have brewing metabolic dysfunction ninety four percent of us and the actual definition of bc isn't even entirely tied to how we look the the general definition of or which goes in a metabolic dysfunction of something you should be worried about is thirty five inch waste for women and forty inch waist for men though alright so on fundamentally we've got this dirty fish tank we've got eighty percent of american adults right you look at those pictures for the nineteen sixties and look at the pictures stay go to a public space there's clearly something happening and it's uniquely happening in america so my my bone to pick with those zip is in the midst of this catastrophe right and then it's midst of clearly something happening with our food and i think it really relates to the fact that seventy percent of our diet is ultra processed food in europe and japan and other countries that's not the case we're we're clearly doing something and then this system is telling us that the answer to that instead of fixing the root cause is a weekly job for wife and the instructions for epic is a lifetime drug and the most alarming part about it is the american academy pediatrics recently said this is a fully funded subsidiary of pharma they said that a twelve year old if you're twelve year old is not only obese but a little bit overweight that oz should be the first line defense so this is just a representation of i think the biggest issue in the country which is that we have this explosion of chronic conditions all basically tied to the same thing which is simple data to lifestyle things and we keep lung for an injection keep lung for a pill and right my point just societal actually think it's a big economic opportunity like we are on an unsustainable trajectory like like it's gonna be forty percent of health a gdp health care costs in the next twenty years we're becoming truly like a fat and fertile sick depressed population we're destroying our human capital so if we're not gonna take the obesity crisis the fact that you go into a classroom i've got a almost three year old you go to a a day care and most kids are clearly having big issues if we're not gonna take this moment with obesity actually ask what's the root cause that's a huge problem and i think the economic opportunity and i think the one one thing investors and entrepreneurs don't quite see is that if this is an unsustainable situation we're gonna have to shift more that four point five trillion dollars to we can we can fix our food system we can incentivize pay lower income people exercise we can actually do things that incentivize the right things i don't think american the american people are trying to be fat they're not trying to be depressed they're not trying to be unhealthy we actually incentivize them to be and can change those incentives instead of jab them with those epic so that's why i think this that have you tried it no i have not tried it so so let's let's let's unpack that so you basically gave us a gift basket of hot takes there and i just wanna open up the ribbon and say oh chocolate cover pretzels wonderful okay so so let's unpack those one by one you said something just now you said the fish tank my understanding is you have this analogy where you have a fish tank and the fish are getting sick but you could see that the water is dirty the fifth the fish tank is not clean and i think your point is we should clean the tank not drug the fish is that the is that the core analogy that you like to use with this yeah i mean let's just go over the stats of that tank right and i and i go to kids because i i'm a you know personal responsibility guy i i i'm really resonate with those arguments that's it's people's choice but it's not personal responsibility for kids so how something's happening and thirty three percent of young adults have pre diabetes right now twenty percent of young adults have fatty liver disease right forty percent of high schoolers qualified as having a mental health for a doctor forty years ago would would would kids have pre prediabetes diabetes and fatty liver a doctor would not see one case of a child having diabetes forty years ago it it is it is order of magnitude increase this is an absolute unprecedented stat function increase in metabolic health disorders among children a hundred years ago my sister is that it's a hundred years ago if you were obese if you were visibly very fat you're in the circus they're just literally in a textbook it was so rare for an american they're not that big either yeah like the the the fat the fat man in the in the free shows they're not they're not that fat compared to what i what you see a kinda of regular base right so so literally it was so rare for an adult to the obese a hundred years ago they literally their job then was to be in a circus the explosion doctor robert lust who's one of my heroes who led hormone issues and and diabetes research at ucsf he said early in his career you know thirty forty years ago didn't see one child one child walk in with diabetes again right now it's thirty three percent of young adults have free diabetes so we've we've done something to ourselves right and what's happened there is my sister graduating from stanford med school you choose between forty two specialties like every doctor she did head and neck and then you do a fellowship focus even more in that space you know there's cardiology neurology he we we segmented the body that's very profitable because a kid right a kid with pre prediabetes when we segment it when we say oh that's a metformin right then they inevitably have high cholesterol it's a separate doctor of cardiologist that's a stat they never have some mental health issues ss they have high blood pressure ace inhibitor they have fertility issues inevitably shove them into ivf and invasive procedures in infer fertility skyrocketing which is highly related to this so they go in this treadmill and they've been lied to that everything segmented it the biggest mistake we've made since world war two is that we've segmented these chronic livestock additions when they're really the same thing didn't that segmentation come from rockefeller yeah isn't that one of your one of your your research point yeah so in this gets to like kind of the business angle is is that all of these things were in this game when it comes to our health which is highly medi the way medicine exists today the the guiding law in congress is called the flex report which actually mandates that we can't look at disease holistically we have to look at things in silos evidence based we need to name a condition and then treat it with either a surgery or a pill this isn't insured in law what what was there re i mean i maybe there was a good reason why they did that like if you had to make the argument for why that was a good reason if you if you could it what was their reason well flex who wrote the airport in nineteen o nine so it's still the guiding lot today was a paid lawyer of rockefeller who invented the pharmaceutical industry as byproducts of oil production he figured he can make them into certain pharmaceutical cure so he is the father of the modern pharmaceutical industry and the thunder of our top med schools like johns hopkins and he did see economic opportunity in basically professional medicine silo conditions and making money by by treating i think there's a way you could spend that in a positive way i mean it was the wild west and a lot of which doctors out there and i think in their minds they were trying to make it more professional but there was a clear economic opportunity to name and silo conditions and then profit from the intervention not from making people healthy and there was a very clear you know you look at johns hopkins the the the guy that started that school william hal said he den integrated nutrition and den integrated any type of holistic thinking to this day a medical education my sister brought up that somebody with migraines might need to have a dietary intervention her attending surgeon said stop being a pussy that we we didn't go to nutrition school this kind of idea of del legit any expiration first day at stanford med school casey was told by her professors that the american patients are not gonna stop eating their big macs they're that they're gonna be sedentary and that the best thing we can do is stand with serious medicine with the prescription pad you know with the scalpel and treat these conditions as they pop up that is like so visceral visually ingrained into the medical system and and and that's a lie do doctors even have to get go to a nutrition class like isn't it isn't it like like they they studied that very minimally ninety percent of medical ninety percent of doctors graduated without taking one nutrition class to dismiss that i was pre med four four years of pre med zero nutrition zero and exercise and i remember asking by t teachers because i was like this is a little strange like oh we took an anatomy class or did you take a ton of chemistry organic chemistry all this stuff but you never take anything on nutrition or exercise and i remember asking about that and they i was like does this happen later like did i miss it what well what's going on here and they're were like no it's just not part of the curriculum there your teacher was also like don't be a pussy sean yeah that's just like give me look he's like this is a reason your prem med and not meant alright so i just wanna to read some of these the the these stories i i pulled from your your blog here so you it said that in nineteen in nineteen o nine this is what you're talking about medicine was the wild wild west at the time the fourth most prescribed drug in the country was probably heroin right or cocaine heroin heroin it was it was made by bayer or bayer i know i say and it was it was a cure for finicky behavior and infants so that's good then it says that rockefeller helped start the modern pharmaceutical industry by using oil byproduct so john d rockefeller obviously oil you know magnet he then needed a byproduct for his oil and said okay how are we're gonna sell pharmaceuticals well if we fund modern modern educational systems i didn't realize that john johns hopkins is named after him yeah he used a father of modern medicine education yeah yeah he also founded university of chicago that's right and so it was a radical concept at the time to silo different diseases into different categories that the doctors could prescribe drugs for each of those those diseases and is it true that seed oils were also from from rockefeller yeah i mean you really these the system is by design and another thing he did is he had this basically oil lubricant you know cheaply made from from byproducts of of seats and he saw that he could actually lobby the usda and get those approved for human consumption they're much cheaper than the natural fats that we're you know genetically biologically made to eat and now by basically rigging the regulatory system having its lawyers literally on the regulatory panels it's the top source of american calories is is literally it's it's just as a statement of fact a a byproduct to oil production these these seed oils and we're wondering what's going on to our health the the three key pillars of the american diet were foods that didn't exist a hundred and twenty years ago you know processed sugar refined sugar wasn't really a thing that really came out of the scene about a hundred years ago we now eat a hundred times more sugar than we did a a hundred years ago it's it's it's truly weaponized in our food sea oils the top source american calories were a by byproduct john rockefeller new invention and then process grains the processing really took off after world war two to make the grain shelf stable but the take the processing tape taking that fiber off makes most of the grains we right it's it's basically a hidden sugar it's very little nutritional value which the fiber has and actually turns into sugar in our bloodstream makes it more addictive those are the pillars of the american diet that we're just fundamentally are aren't biologically made to eat and it know one thing to add to the conspiracy had to the story but but it's true is cigarette companies invented the process food so you have jaw rockefeller kind of starting it but then in the nineteen eighties a cigarette smoking started going down philip morrison rj reynolds became the two largest food companies the united states at in nineteen ninety two of the three largest m and a deals in american history were cigarette companies buying food companies so every single processed food companies we can actually point to he's either still owned by a cigarette company we don't even realize this kraft is still owned by philip morris so these sure companies actually still owned or has been spun off once the doctors and the scientists from the cigarette companies went to the food companies i'd actually use these ingredients use the rigged system to actually make our food more addictive so this is a just an accent that we're getting sick and and sam you know maybe we're talking different levels because you know on the micro level you know oz zen there's there's good stories at bad stories but on the on the high level and and and we're we're we're really you know are kind of the purpose of my life has to argue this is we have eighteen hundred dollars per month that taxpayers are gonna pay for oz for an eighty percent of us adult target market what if we actually just took the issue obesity and just from first principles asked how do we actually solve that problem you'd never say wait for people to get sick and then jab eighty percent american people we're we're so in this box of just as it's an it's that we're gonna get sick even though we get much than other countries and then drug people we're so in that box it's like here to even question that we're gonna do that and we should give the listener and sean background basically we we had a discussion on twitter kelly and i about oz i actually don't remember what i said but i think convenient well i it it was something i was like pro oz but for people who were incredibly obese because i i think that like i i i just think that when people say that something is always bad i'm like well that's not true like it could be good in some cases now i think that drugs are mostly not the answer but occasionally are i tested oz epic because i'm a guinea pig and i love testing weird things i think that like some of the things that for more of the obese people is interesting i think it's particularly interesting for alcoholic but for the average joe no i think it's silly and i i i'd imagine you and i are in a huge agreement on that how long did you take it for sam i i took it i i tested it for three months when when it was like like when i saw that it was like the coolest or when i saw that it i read an article saying like everyone in the hampton or the and famous are taking this i think i told you about it sean in two thousand twenty one and i was like what is this drug it limits like your blood glucose stuff like that's interesting so i tried it and it was it kinda makes sick at first but it's it's a spectacular drug but if you don't need it it's definitely not something that you should take diet and exercises way better can you explain i don't know how much you know but can you explain how oz actually works what does it do that lets you that that causes the weight loss what is the function what is like the the pathway that it uses yeah i mean it so so the truth is we don't fully actually know all the mechanisms but gl one is a our body actually produces it and it gives us the feeling of so it actually is basically just a supplement that's jamming our body with more of this peptide it's like taking a bunch of vitamin d you're taking another supplement but you're basically taking a supplement of a peptide that our body naturally produces to trick our body and into feeling full so you know again that that's not really solving the root cause a a couple quick points to what sam says i think we're in full agreement i think the drug should be available i think people should be able to hack with it you but scott gallo was recently talking to you guys think i think he mentioned this he said this is the biggest a big economic opportunity for the country than ai he said that the vast majority of american people should be on this that's the stance of the medical community the stance of the various medical associations and the fda is that this drug should be prescribed to the media american and basically that it's so hopeless that we're so addicted to all processed food that we need to simulate ourselves of the peptide in order to trick ourselves into feeling full essentially it is liquefied an i mean truly truly that's what it is it's it's it's it's making you not want to eat it's a crash diet and the problem with recommending it for a long term is that if you if you could prove perfectly that this thing works the rest of your life with zero side effects is totally okay for every american to take for the rest of their lives maybe there'd be a conversation but that's actually not true people are getting off this at high rates because the side effects there's very little long term information there was a sixty eight week study to approve it for kids for life actually but we don't know the long term effects you mentioned not wanting to drink sam i mean there's is increasing information coming out and this is a a key point writ large with the healthcare care system is that you know why is it not making people wanna do anything they enjoy doing it's it's it they say it's actually making people not wanna have sex not wanna gamble not wanna drink obviously this drug affects your dopamine to serotonin pathways and it's actually increasingly showing that it's highly tied to suicidal association a depression one of the problems with the silo of health care this again and i i wanna be really clear with chronic conditions the acute innovation of the medical system if we have an infection in gunshot wound burst appendix complicated childbirth that's great but that's five to seven percent of overall spending the vast majority of the medical system is basically pill and putting band aids on chronic conditions and people should be able to hack this i think it's great sam a lot of my friends are taking it but the problem is it's gonna be eighteen hundred dollars of government funding per person per month that's rig too the aging hundred dollars it's fifteen times cheaper in europe the drug is fifteen times cheaper in in its home country and throughout europe through totally dysfunctional rigged policies we're actually lit literally paying fifteen times more as tax taxpayers payers for that drug so so that's why they gets kind of the rosetta s understanding why we're kinda losing our way sam have ever done the napkin math on this drug so i i kinda was doing this this morning about this eighteen hundred dollars a month well you know how you know how much it cost sean like when i bought it just like for fun yeah i did it for fun it was like eight hundred bucks a month i think okay just real quick on that they give rebates to individuals but the system is so rigged that the sticker price is sixty to eighteen hundred which medicare at medicaid will pay so the government's actually gonna pay a lot more taxpayers will actually pay a lot more and then they give rebates to individuals paying out of pocket but so so if you just use twenty twenty thousand a year as the the cost to take this thing because it's long term drug you're supposed to take it continuously and then it's eighty percent i believe of adults are you know in the sort of like qualified you know that's the tam basically for this so you take you know you take the us population times eighty percent times twenty grand a year and then you're like well you're supposed to continue to take this thing so even if you do like you know so so just that alone is something like two or three trillion dollars a year the same and then you then you say great and then they're gonna take this for twenty thirty years oh interesting so this is a fifty trillion dollar drug like cali is this gonna be the most lucrative drug ever made well right now that's priced into the stock so i think it's the the twelfth most valuable company in the world and novo nord the company that makes it just pass l age you know the iconic fashion designer as the most valuable company in europe you know how like safe way or k has like a cvs so we you can get your your drugs in the in the grocery store that's kinda like what louis vuitton does now i think like at the front desk they like upsell you on get exactly yeah they're they're tied together but but yeah sean it it's certainly priced in with the stock i mean this thing is a phenomenon it's one of the most valuable beats in the world what's sent sting when you look into the i i've actually dug to the jpmorgan analyst reports that actually under underline the assumptions for why the stock is so valuable about eighty to ninety percent of the profits expected are not from its home continent europe it it's it's almost all from the united states so this is not the standard of care in in europe if you're pre diabetic in in denmark where this drug is made they actually prescribe a keto diet they actually pay you exercise which makes sense this isn't just rolled out like candy from the medical system europe people can pay out of pocket so all the profit expectations are coming from the united states this danish company is one of the ten largest lobbyists of us politicians and one of the ten largest spend on tv news so literally what you have is pharma companies just just as a statement of fact not they are the largest fund of politicians they fund politicians directly five times more than the oil industry they're fifty percent of tv news spending so they're not only able to influence us they're actually able to buy the news itself they're actually able to dictate what we hear on the news which is why sixty minutes literally ran a segment saying obesity is a genetic condition that it's not tied to eating or not tied to exercise and that it's it's an urgent priority to jab a bunch of kids that's what literally what sixty minutes said relatively un question then they're the largest fund of med schools and academic research i mean getting back to the nutrition point in med schools casey kind of un unwind why that was stanford medical fifty percent of budget touches pharma it's pharma the number one fund of research far as the number one fund of the actual regulatory agencies fifty excuse me seventy five percent of the fda is actually not funded by taxpayers it's funded by pharma itself and bureau are built to grow it's a revolving door when i hear stanford med school professor or the dean of harvard med school that just feels like trustworthy to me just me as a lay person i feel like well who else am i gonna trust if not the dean of harvard med or the stanford professor are those people that you trust absolutely not i i think around the country in various levels were all losing trust or institutions in various ways the military education healthcare care i think is number one and i think this is really positive thing because the we're the only animals with experts telling us what to eat and you know how to manage chronic conditions we're the only animals that have rampant levels of metabolic dysfunctional obesity diabetes you don't have those among giraffes like the problem is that we're listening to the experts and let me just let me just take it really specific on stafford med d you're right nobody more trusted in the country and working for the pharmaceutical industry in twenty two thousand nine two thousand ten we knew that well well look can you just explain that you were you were a consultant right you you went to stanford for then you became a consultant and you consulted four companies like can you just explain that background i went to stand for my sister's was my best friend she was much smarter she was prem mad you know top of her stanford for bed school class i did economics and g politics and then right after doing some campaigns realized you know everyone that after the campaign works the two largest spend in dc the food industry in the pharma industry worked for them and and did consulting for a couple of years didn't like it got went to business school and mid starting companies for the past ten years did you know getting into it were you like this is slimy so i grew up in washington good young conservative you know intern at the white house entered at hurt foundation i was the knowing conservative guy in class at stanford pissing of it off and you know really consider myself like i ideological and i considered being conservative supporting american industry so i worked on some campaigns and then i was very proud to be working for the pharmaceutical industry and working for the food these industries leading the country and the issue in front of us was which ties the stanford med school dean was opioids so you get a room i'm a junior employee and it's like there's unnecessary regulation on opioids these incredible innovations that are solving this scourge of the american people which is pain and we have to fight back against this what are we gonna do and i had a list of doctors in front of me and we're like how do we get these doctors money let's get them some research grads so we reached out to the d stanford med who was a pain specialist and we funded him directly with consulting payments and then made a donation to stanford to his lab for four million dollars from opioid companies to study ethics and pain management then we worked with our allies at the nih which is totally just a swamp with pharmaceutical interest it's funded by far it's a total revolving door and we helped set up a panel so the nih in two thousand eleven did a panel to make recommendations on opioids who's the most trusted person you could possibly have in a panel to make a medical recommendation the dean of stanford med school so the d of stanford med school who just took a bunch of money from opioid companies was appointed in two thousand eleven to the blue ribbon panel on opioid recommendations he chose nineteen other elite academics fifteen of the nineteen had direct payments from opioid companies that we very strategically steer to them and that panel in two thousand i believe it's two thousand eleven recommended basically that this was overblown about the addiction they basically said you know state a course pain is a huge problem and then opioid prescriptions continue to go up that's how it works and i could just tell you i think this is something people waking up to i think you see this in the political climate right now where there's i think the defining issue of our time is dis trust our institutions the these lobbyists these consultants they know how to rig the debate right they know people trust a study from stanford they know people trust you know what civil rights groups say that if you call someone racist that's gonna shut down the debate so that's why corporations that are basically poisoning the american people are the biggest fund of civil rights organizations you it's just look who people trust and funnel the money to so look let let me ask you when you when you funded the research for let's say that stanford professor or digging or whatever it was and then they and you funded fifteen of the nineteen people that are on that panel now i wanna get really specific do you think what do you believe do you believe that they genuinely believed the opioid like that that was their con there were genuine conclusion after doing the research in the study was that the opioid thing is overblown and we should hey more opioids for americans right do you believe that they felt like a little conflicted like hey my gravy train shuts off if this goes down so let's find some middle ground do you feel like they are intentionally misleading or that that's genuinely what they believe very very good question i think the reason maybe a lot of listeners and i used to have trouble believing this is because how can this be so evil so let me break this down the genius of the healthcare system is that it takes very good people and puts them into a system with plausible so the problem is that nobody actually has full responsibility for why the outcome that the healthcare care system should be solving for which is people getting sick why that's exploding as everyone's making money you know the doctors can say it's the food company's fault the food companies can say it's personal responsibility the med schools can say we can't control what americans do we're just gonna keep growing and making money the pharma companies you know rally about you know making stats and curing the sick patients in front of so everyone the the systemic design of the of the health care industry is is actually genius because it can allow people actually almost a virtuous virtue signal about doing the right thing while producing well not not necessarily evil it's evil but but it's producing what the systems decide to do which is growth so that's one dynamic with the healthcare system if you go down to your question sean and i have really casey's makes exploring this we talk about the in book i have to put some c on people in the system and i think it's breaking through one statistic that's alarming doctors have the highest suicide rate and highest rate of burnout of any profession in america i think what's happening is you get a lot of well meaning people there's easier ways to make a buck you know than the nine years of training you have to do you know people be actually a magnet for the best and brightest end of the medical system and then they eventually realize and if they're not they don't realize this they're just not paying attention that they're comp system that is profiting for people being sick and they're not making people better so you actually have a dynamic where a lot of people feel trapped my sister at leaving kind of bravely leaving the medical system after a decade of training got people senior here at stanford cedar at harvard see your medical leaders kind of talking to her off the record saying you are much brave than me everyone knows the system is gonna run the country off a cliff so there is a knowledge and i think what leads this depression suicide burnout out among doctors is they don't quite know what to do they they feel really trapped in this system with with with really per incentives but we all know people that work at pharma that our doctors you know a lot of my friends from harvard business school like they go into work at pepsi work at pharma work at these companies it takes good people but but i more and more i do you know think we need to kinda elon musk energy you know we said fuck it i don't care if i lose money i'm gonna do what's right i we need more of that leadership from the healthcare care system because we're truly creating and i'm not even joking right i i a fat depressed infer population i mean infer fertility is is skyrocketing right now there's our bodies are screaming out for help right well before we go to infer tell wanna to just tie back to the history thing so you had said something i think in one of your blog post that the first chronic condition that pharmaceutical ever that that became a pharmaceutical product was birth control i think this is in the nineteen fifties and you said this is the first pill in american history that people just didn't stop taking what and you know if you're a company and you see this is a beautiful business model here's a pill they're gonna take every single month you know on an ongoing basis and it's not you know it's not a cure it's a treatment it's it's a chronic thing that you're gonna continue to do and i think there's some documentaries now on the sack family and and all this but you know basically they work for pfizer they started thinking you know how can we create more chronic issues and they is it true that they also owned medical journals at the time yes so let me yeah let me try to take that to today and what kind of the business problem and the business opportunity is so you're right the medical system was at its height of trust after world war two the invention of antibiotics was credited at a chief reason we won the war you know but the antibiotics were founded by you know off basically somebody digging in dirt and doing some like very rudimentary experiments that cost no money right it's it's like this wasn't actually a huge industry and literally the sake of family they they said okay this just very strategic let's take the trust in gender post war two let's learn the lesson from the birth control pill and let's get americans on more and more pills so they actually with owning the medical journals they actually created new diagnosis codes and created this idea of anxiety and created new mental health code categories and their first big blockbuster or one of them was val very addictive very harmful and the time magazine cover you know late nineteen sixties early nineteen seventies was nation thirty percent of women were on this drug very addictive they were called mom mommy's little helper and that was their advertising and and and then you just go down the list the entire thrust of medicine has then been to take that flex report take what rockefeller set up and put it on hyper drive segment the body segment medical specialties deeper deeper deeper and then create pills just for biomarkers right stand for for cholesterol right the metformin for blood sugar we've been we've been pill ourselves on all these little biomarkers that we can kind of manipulate with one pill completely ignoring that everyone's getting sicker at the same time that is by the design right it's very profitable and we you we've i think we talked about this on twitter just as a statement of economic fact there's nothing more profitable than a child that gets sick early and gets on these drugs and doesn't learn metabolic healthy habits doesn't learn the basics of why their blood sugar is high why their cholesterol is high they're told the savior of a pill and they're are inevitably gonna get more and more and more and more comorbidities the genius of chronic disease which the sack understood is that those patients suffer those kids suffer right you're you're you're four times more likely to be suicidal or depress if you have diabetes as a kid right you're you're gonna have a lot more issues like infer fertility but you don't die right away you you're you're you're a patient who goes in the system often paid for by taxpayer so this was understood this is directly understood when the sack and another ally saw the birth control pill and that takes us to the day where i'll i'll i'll call out you know even the entrepreneurial commit community and venture capitalists right investment and and and and good business opportunities of this system still are predicated on this existing model you know i talked to a lot of a esteem healthcare care vcs and they think innovation is putting a millennial pink package on viagra and and and shipping it to people more conveniently they think that innovation is like better ux on medical records you know you you look down the list on these thought leaders of vigil capital talking about you know medical innovation it's all just better wrappers on the same existing system there's very little disruption now that's a moral problem but i actually think it's an economic problem because i don't think people fully understand i've talked to a lot of lot of the lot of this wise people in the in the health space if we have an unsustainable situation if we truly do believe that if we truly do believe we're on a bad path with our mental health with our physical health with our obesity rates we're not gonna drug our way out of that problem like we're not gonna be doing more and more the same to solve that problem i think that's self evident and i think there's an economic opportunity there for people who realize it because we're gonna have to to shift the incentives of the system hey so i don't i don't wanna change the world when it comes to food that's up to you guys like you i just wanna do like the eighty twenty where i mostly do things great i feel good and i look good and my family is safe and feels good as well can you tell me what you eat and where you get your food on a daily basis and just what that eighty twenty is like what can i do what can our listeners do what can sean do to just be mostly great yeah the core thesis of the of this book i wrote with my sister is that things are more complicated by design the biggest lion in health is that the reasons we're getting sick or complicated and the second biggest lie is that these things can't be changed quickly they can so when it comes to food i believe we should fire every single person and the government and academia who works in nutrition we should replace it with this one rule which is what answers your question and one principle reduce ultra processed food consumption we are seventy percent if you look at what your kids are eating or what we're eating it's it's ultra processed food so what what what did you what did you eat for breakfast and what are gonna need for lunch no matter what dietary philosophy are i try eat whole foods i had eggs right pasture raised so to look look into the quality so the first step is to reduce all food consumption that's the thing i i'd say first and foremost that is what most people are not doing even if you don't get into the the type of types of food you're eating that's the first step i guarantee you if you are on the hunt to rid your fridge of ultra processed food being on the hunt for those three there's un hold training of three ingredients added sugar processed grains and seagull oils you're gonna get to the next level of the quality of the food the first thing to do it's all to processed food so which basically just means mostly plants and animals that are are are not process a ton if we simply made that our nutrition policy we'd be a transforms human capital the second thing is as you alluded to is if you get there and most people are not there is to get into the quality food to really understand and be curious and being a be in that path of what's being done to our food the genetic makeup of a grass fed cow first a grain fed cow is entirely different it's a reversed ratio of omega three or omega six the grain fed which cows are not made to eat which is totally a new phenomenon are predominantly omega six fatty acids which are inflammatory which which which causes inflammation our body a grass fed cow which is how they've been raised forever which is now a luxury is omega three anti inflammatory so if you just hunt for animals hunt for vegetables that were made in the way we're biologically you know made to eat them that's that's the second bar well alright so i'm hungry do you go to like a chain grocery store ever or do you only go to butcher chairs yep where where do you shop for groceries i go to sprouts i go to whole foods i look for deliveries of meat that's pasture raised of farmers that i trust but truly just going to your supermarket and not getting ultra processed food and looking with the eggs pasture raised with the meat ideally grass fed pasture raised with the vegetables organic not spray with a bunch of glyphosate pesticides like it's simple it's a it's the things we all talk about but if you if you truly just follow that and we incentivize that as a country more we'll be on a much better path what are your vice when's the last time you had a yeah or like just like like do you have a bowl of ice cream what's guy am like everyone that knows me would be like i am like i've been on a journey here guys like you know two years ago i mean i was running a a wedding dress company with my wife a direct of wedding dress company during covid we we raised venture money we had a large team at struggled a bit during covid it's called anomaly so we made custom dresses we had a really innovative supply chain but you know i've been running you know startups direct to consumer companies you know for the past decade and i wasn't the healthiest person and during covid a couple things happened what is my sister casey means who wrote the book with as i mentioned a bunch she started levels health she left a medical system she's become a big advocate i thought she was an idiot when she left medical school or left residency i'm i i you know as i said grew up trusting the medical system thinking it was just crazy that she would leave this past she's out of all these credentials right that's how we were raised it's like get get the best schools get go up the traditional systems so i thought she was crazy but she really radical me with these ideas that the answers are much simpler than than they seem in twenty twenty one as we were selling our direct consumer company my mom had a pain or stomach and and went to get a scan at stanford hospital and she was perfectly healthy we thought but they told her it was stage four pancreatic of cancer and she called us said it was gonna she's gonna die in a couple weeks and we rushed to her side what that experience for me so this is relatively new this is twenty twenty one what that experience to me showed is really micro cause how the system's broken because my mom was on five medications over forty years she you know thirty years ago had high cholesterol stand and that's normal high blood sugar metformin and that's normal so she was the typical american patient she was seventy and actually told by our doctor a couple weeks before that she was actually healthy because she was on less medications than an average seventy year old because those issues that most americans deal with weren't identified as a core you know metabolic issue just take a pill she wasn't set on that path of exploring her food of understanding how sedentary life can can eventually give you a cancer down the road that led to her getting cancer this year cancer rates are at an all time high they're particularly our all time high around kids every single crop disease you can name is that an all time high this year it's because we're ignoring the warning side so we ignored those with my mom so she abruptly died and that kinda radical me to my previous experience working for the food and pharma industry i right around that time i took a blood test and the doctor said oh your blood is fine you know you're fine i show my sister said like no this is this represents about metabolic dysfunction i asked the doctor again what happened they're like no you're not treat yet you're not quite at the stand rate but yeah yeah that's it's not good but know we don't have anything to do for you yet so that's that kind of these experiences it doesn't come from a passion for nutrition it comes to a passion really for american competitiveness we are poisoning our population and the the average american is on a path like by mom kind of the system hand waving these small things and then they eventually lead to a big thing so that led me i mean i'm not a a model in any way and frankly i don't have any interest in lecturing anyone listening i think we a lot of people listening are on probably a path right now my main passion and what justin and i really working on justin mayors my partner at true is i i think i think a lot of your listeners are on this path i think they're like look at past race beef i think they're trying what i'm saying and where my experience comes in from working for these industries is that we can't lie to ourselves though we are not gonna get out of this if the largest industry in the country is incentivized advice for us to be sick i think startups companies very other people we need to actually talk about the top down incentives too so you know i i'm absolutely on a path we've written about tactical tips in on our our book but where i'm spending most of my time is like how do we change the incentives because i don't think the japanese kids are you know just a much less lazy and less to suicidal than americans at a three percent you know they have a three percent obesity rate we have a you know kid childhood obesity rate like twenty five percent there's something happening with the what what is the answer there what what what is the leading theory on why in japan they're at you look at this chart we're at forty percent yeah america we're number one forty percent obesity rate and then japan's at the bottom four percent what are they doing differently what do you is it you know genetic might be a hypothesis what are the real hypothesis no did to anyone that at genetics did they they say obesity crisis it's genetics when it's just explode in the past forty years and was not an issue at all they say they say that diabetes is genetics when you you didn't have kids as diabetic forty years ago sean it is so simple it has follow the money it is that simple it is i'm just gonna say this again our most prominent makes money when we're sick and lose money when we're healthy what does japan do yeah so they spend three times less per capita on health care and double the amount mostly on food so so per capita so so they actually put food into their health care budget so i'll say it again they spend two times worker per capita on food we spend almost like on all develops countries per capita we spend the least amount on food and three times more than the the government's spends two times as a country a country and a lot of the health care budget actually goes to instead of advising the food system and food interventions nine out of ten killers of americans or food borne illnesses i mean we can dance out it it's just that simple like you would wipe out heart disease diabetes disease respiratory illness covid deaths even if you got our country metabolic more healthy which is many factors but food is the number one other countries understand that and they dramatically rein in the cent incentives that pay doctors more when you get sicker for a longer period of time fundamentally structure now a lot of these countries died don't here have systems we fully agree with you know socialism would whatever have you in the us we have much worse than socialism and we have a k democracy where the systems just totally been rigged at every single impulse is for people to get sick be fed into the system and then stay sick to be treated that's every single impulse in the system sean have you have you ever you you i don't think you've been to europe recently but when you go to europe it's pretty crazy i you like i i went done this little path where i remember going to europe and i felt like i ate poorly like i was on vacation and i ate pretty bad but i was walking a lot but i felt awesome and i went to the store and i bought a pack of skittles just a i wanted to look at the ingredients and then when you compare the amount of ingredients that are in a skit or a kit kat or like normal junk food compared to american food it's like the list of ingredients it's like two or three times as long i've seen this on twitter right same brand a bread or whatever it is same brand of cracker but then in europe there's three ingredients in the us there's seventeen ingredients that you don't recognize the names that's what you're talking about yeah and there's another thing where if you look at mcdonald's so mcdonald's up until like nineteen eighty five or nineteen ninety they used beef fat i believe beef potato fries tall and it was i think it was just salt and a potato for a long time now if you look at the ingredients of a friend to fry it's of mcdonald's french fry it's it's got like ten other things is there it and i think that someone said said it best where they said in europe the rules around food are it's a default too we say no to everything here's the ingredients we allow you to put in whereas in america it was like here's the here's the handful of things we don't allow cali you rolling your eyes is that inaccurate to look at it because i've noticed that when i go overseas i often oftentimes i feel better but i don't think i'm eating better no no i think you're hitting it on this ted sam i'm just i'm just anticipating what i would be thinking a couple years ago at some people might be thinking is that this argument when you talk about this in the us that it's over regulation and again i'm like a free market guy i don't like regulation and as a working for these companies whenever anyone mentioned about changing food greens in the us it's like the us food system is great let's not have the net state the problem is that the nanny state is the fact that food companies have lob and rigged the system to have thousands we literally thousands of ingredients that aren't legal in europe are allowed in the united states the usd nutrition guidelines committee which basically approves and recommends various foods ninety five percent of it is funded by ninety five percent of the panels are directly funded by food companies or farmer companies so this idea that we allow these ingredients isn't under regulation it's actually completely and utterly rigged you know justin mayer and i do we we have a company that is trying to change these incentives but because we've been pounding this mission we've been looped into a number of advocacy efforts one thing we're doing we're working with a guy named jason ka and a bunch of health leaders we we've done a legal action against kellogg you know kellogg is a stark example but their ingredient list they change completely for the american kids versus across the border in canada it has addictive ingredients it has the coloring that make it really bright that are linked to adhd and other developmental issues we're we're we're literally through a rigged system you know our our free formulating ingredients for american kids that's what europe frankly realized i mean what europe and and other countries are doing is it's not really even health care policy it's let's not poison our population as much policy kelly i wanna shift gears real quick you we ask people before they come on the pod say you know what were some of the big you know either philosophies turning points in your life things that that really shaped you and and and shaped the way you think about the world you said something that the most formative experience was h b class harvard business school class where professor said that the most depressed group of people he you ever studied was hp people ten years after graduation what is that story and why would harvard business school grads ten years later be the most depressed group of people yeah i kinda made me think about the scott gallo interview you guys did where he's like you know don't chase your passions i just i really don't think that's the right advice i don't think we have an epidemic of people you know not you know fully yeah i don't think we an epidemic when people chasing their passions too much you know what i've generally seen is a lot of our trauma and expectations through society you know throwing really good human capital into suboptimal optimal roads and yeah so at h sbs and it's just one micro cause you know but but just something i saw everyone writes their application essay about you know transforming and disrupting the world disrupting health care disrupting you know energy big industries having a big impact and then like many things you you get into that room of you know of a thousand people of kind of avail a type people and it's a conformity factory so eighty five to ninety percent of people by the end of the two years end up going into traditional industries into finance and energy you know my friend per wrote a essay sa about transferring healthcare care went to mckinsey and you know i was on the team that helped prescribe more opioids on their side that that the risk had to settle lawsuit it so so you have this dynamic i think this happens at many layers throughout the country where based on you know various fears that are ingrained in us by society i think frankly the gears of one of the negative gears of capitalism to just kind of you know as john rockefeller said look we need workers we don't need thinkers you know that's what a lot of our institutions do and this study this professor he surveyed white blue collar workers different soc economic classes you know every different professions you know like like thirty different cohorts the most depressed group was these graduates ten years out and again the reason is because they go in with dreams they end up conforming and settling their lifestyle gets to the point where they don't have really flexibility to take that stab to take that dream they feel professionally unfulfilled but trapped and then you know ten years out they really have a lot of regrets at least professionally but that maybe bleeds into other areas and you know i i i generally feel like like grateful honestly like like in a weird way my mom's death was always what i'd had feared most in life that happening and in a way kind of cementing the finite of life and and and and a mission into my head i feel really like grateful for and yeah i i i think people not chasing their passions not fully self actual themselves is a much bigger problem than than too many people fall their passions you also said that taking mushrooms was like one of the most impactful things did you tell cali you're you're almost mushrooms story one my favorite stories listen to this so you know i i i have issues that i'm always working out i had some i had some trauma i was working out and i and i went to this i went to this meeting of this woman who she called herself a shaman was gonna lead me along with my wife through a md mma or something like that therapy session i go to the dinner in the meet and greet and she starts saying things like we need to give this medicine for free to everyone and i was like yeah but i'm paying like five brand to do this can i have it for free she didn't like that and then she was like i she asked where i was from i said missouri and she goes fly over country and i was like alright that's right too and then i start asking her a little bit more and she starts talking about capitalism and how it's ruined medicine and capitalism horrible and all this stuff i'm like well lady again i'm paying five grand a b here and i was like so what were you doing before this she goes i used to work at le and brothers and when it collapsed i left and started doing this and i was like i'm not lady i'm not and she if she texted me she texted me and she was like i don't think this is a good fit and i was like i agree this is this is a a a round pig at a square hole this is not a good fit didn't you tell you're like i can't do drugs with you yeah i was like look i was already on the on the fence about taking drugs and if i'm gonna take drugs and ain't gonna be with you so and and you said that taken was was awesome sean have you ever done this stuff by the way and would you ever do i've only done it like recreational like fifteen years ago i have never done it i i don't wanna say i would never do it but it's never been called me but you know i hear these stories and i'm i wanna hear your story kelly because the people who advocate for are people i like for people i respect and they're people who they advocate for it in such a strong way that it does make me curious like wow what what one one of the things i i've learned in life is that some of the most valuable things are the things you don't know how to value meaning you've never traveled so you don't get the big deal about travel you've never done this so you don't understand what you're missing out on and those are some of the most valuable things and when somebody is is stuck in one of those mindset you just wanna shake them and like dude you don't know trust me like whatever i don't know if this is one of those things but i've heard about it enough where it's maybe be curious yeah yeah so for sam i think you made the right decision set in setting is very important i think that encouragement of therapeutic psilocybin use for anyone that feels called sean i think you make a for for anyone that feels called is the most important single thing we can do in america period i i i i i actually believe that i think we are truly losing our minds a bit in the country through the all this change that's happening the the highest leverage area we can do work on is our brains and this isn't everything but it is a blunt force extremely powerful tool to help rewire our brands let me let me let me get advice experience so my mom dies i'm i'm kind of at an extra moment i'm kind of thinking about you know what i wanna do our company was cranking before covid you had a hundred employees was with struggling because the the whole market was cut off and i again conservative guy never had super stigma never thought about these things yeah can you imagine mentioned you no like twelve year old you were in your brooks brothers calories being like one day you're gonna be advocating for second still got the brooks no i could've have never i still got the sports go still got the brooks brothers i tried to aware that when i talk about this because i think it's a very important thing actually you crossed everyone needs to wake up to but and i do talk to a lot of republicans about this we're waking up but yeah so so a friend who is a scientist i said let's do this therapeutic session blind high dose music four hours intros perspective alone and i'll give you a couple examples of of what i saw so it's really hard to describe but i was working with my wife and you know we were running a startup up stressful you know we qui a lot and i i saw myself kinda getting angry at her and then my brain like zoomed up and i saw the expanse of the whole like world like i could like zoomed out of the whole galaxy and i'm like it just put this simple inside of my head like i'm so fucking stupid to get mad at my amazing wife about these stupid things in the expanse of like how lucky i am it's a simple insight we can all say that like to be grateful that it you shouldn't sweat the small stuff i've i'm not perfect by any means but i i think about that like every hour like like with her like like it's totally it's like a car crash like submitted to my head of how grateful and lucky i am with her and how stupid it is to get like angry over small things to completely transformed my thought on that i saw my mom and she gave me a hug and i like had this idea that she still lived within me and that i could carry her legacy ford by like working with my sister on the book and various you know this mission to kind of try to carry her her story forward it i truly like have that imprinted in my head i've never been upset about my mom dying and i truly feel like visceral that she lives inside us and lives inside this mission lives inside the book we wrote again it's a simple the best way to describe it is the neuro you can talk about a car crash or you can get in a car crash and it's like when something really traumatic happens your brain like wires it it's like deep rooted in your brain what it does is it it helps you kinda get out of the trauma and thought processes and fears that we're inevitably ingrained with and helps cement in a really solid way some of these potentially new frameworks that that sound tri but are like have the seriousness of of a long term thing and then the other thing said i think a lot of people talk about this and i get shot it it's only i just share my story it's only you know as you're called but i think it is important to hear these stories i think it's really dumb and and and kind of not correct to talk about as some kind of like corporate or executive you know hack because it's much deeper than that but for me it's the most profound important professional thing i've ever done i mean like the whole kind of growing up at dc trying to chase up the ladder go to the good schools the h bs you to conform me it definitely is like you know definitely i think consistently gives you this kinda like you know idea of how these stupid games were playing just don't matter and definitely solidified in my head like hopefully some fearless this on like pushing you know a mission forward and it led to led led to what i'm doing now and you i'd i'd like to think that's ingrained in the company i you know from my perspective having a mission that's sincere adjustment i have and it it's been a differentiated recruiting like minded people and customers and merchants it's not a pan for everything i think a lot of people get to this place through prayer through meditation to other routes it's not like a shortcut but it definitely is a way brute force to get out of your your traps that are holding you back that's pretty damn conversion sean or i think you like make an a appointment yeah i think you're gonna have get busy next weekend i think you're gonna have to mark it i'm up your calendar i don't know man that's sounds that's when i hear that i think blind fold little with headphones on i find that to be incredibly intimidating i find i i i i want the i want the the result i don't know if i can go through did you do it one time or have you done it more sense is it like a regular thing or yeah no exactly childbirth that you know it was a profound so i wanna do right away cam it's it's a really but i i've done it a couple more times i mean to be to be totally honest sam it's it's all about i i will promise you this and and frankly this is my perspective but if anyone feels called if you are called and you're doing it in a in a good setting without you know somebody ranting about politics you before and and where you feel safe and you walk towards and this is what the clinical research says quite frankly but if you walk towards your fears if you go into it a way to explore and walk towards you know your your your issues whatever that means to you it's gonna be i i've never personally met someone that's done it in in a responsible therapeutic way hasn't said it's been the most impactful experience of their lives i i actually don't know anyone that hasn't said that it's not like a a club anything thing but it truly is if you're called to do it i i would say this to people and if if this resonates i i would try to do it like urgently like like i think your life is really like many people i know and for me it's like kind of before and after is this legal like can you google like like si retreat near me yeah is this yeah so i i i i did it in a the this legal in some countries there's a phase three fda approval of the united states to make it legal which we're i just are actually advocating a lot on two i think it fits to the whole root cause health thing that we're trying to push forward there's sir religious exemptions there's state by state a so i'm not gonna give legal advice i would i would urge people to find a responsible legal way to do it therapeutic in a in a trusted save setting and yeah in sam it's it's just it's just about what whenever you you feel called but but it's four hours it's exploring your you know your it it was totally it's all bad right just different narratives and stuff i mean i think you guys are amazing how openly you can talk about kind of your mental models and stuff it's just a way to like zoom out and and re explore those yeah i think it's awesome yeah i'm totally in favor of it i just i it's not i'm i'm a little intimidated still well what one of my favorite phrases is when the student is ready the teacher appears and i think you know you're saying when you're called to something i've always felt this way which is that things happen at the right time and you you know intuitively you'll you'll know when the right time is for certain things or if it's for you there's a great youtube video i watched of tim ferris talking about psychedelic tim ferris is a big advocate for psychedelics i think he has a nonprofit that he started that's funding research but what i liked about his video was that he wasn't trying to convince you at all to do it in fact he started by essentially convincing you all the reasons you shouldn't do it and was very measured and responsible in the way that he talked about it so if anybody was curious if this page you're curious i would watch that video because i thought that was very helpful in framing and i won't try to summarize his points because i thought he did a good job but just try google who are youtube for for tim ferris talking about it's took a five minute clip something i completely agree with that it's not like an endorsement but it is criminal and i think one of the biggest issues in the country that we don't make this tool available just last week the fda actually threw a wrench into the approval process for md again like justin and i see true tremendous as an advocacy organization we're we're lobbying and relationship with the hundred members of congress both sides of the aisle we're actually working with presidential candidates too and and and and and members of congress to brief though about this issue the fda does not like these treatments because instead of long term kinda numbing your symptoms it actually does help you get into you know the cause and unpacking the trauma that we all have in the models that we all have so actually like you know this gets into overtime about earlier like these type of i consider this a root cause treatment right anything that gets to the root with mental health it's obviously the the mental models holding us back with metabolic conditions it's it's food and lifestyle habits what's interesting is is you know when you first started talking about this i was almost chuck a little bit to myself like oh you know first he was kinda railing against prescribing a drug to solve the problem and then here he's saying the drug solves the problem for me it it it it was a great intervention but what actually what you're saying is that in both cases it's the cleaning of the fish tank so in the first case that the cleaning the the thing that was making you sick was the food and the second case the thing that was making you sick in the head was your own story and perspective on things and this was a a way to change the narrative in your head the the perspective and the story that you were telling yourself every day so i think in both cases you're actually advocating for cleaning the tape yeah it is my wife and and justin and people that know me he'll tell i a long i'm i'm i have a long way to go i'm my the biggest hot room in my house is the room for improvement but like for me this you know what i did what bumper where i love there what i did this a couple times and i haven't done are a long time sean because it just it it jams for me of like it's the basics it's like be a good person try to exercise eat healthy meditate you know like like like the keto to life is that like that was a big thing for me it's just like the having the nirvana experience of what the world is with with this is one thing but like the the implementation for me is like so that that was my message from it and i think it's like it was a good message for me it's like i think that's what most people do this in a therapeutic way get it's like i need to be a better person things are connected so yeah it's not like like you take it and it's a pan it's like it's like a tool it is a like nuclear weapon like blood force instrument to like jam some truths and it is you know not to get too trippy but it is a natural substance you know the oldest living organism that we basically derive from this fungus so you know yeah that's a good question but it's not to me it's not anti pharma pro pharma it's what is a root cause cure what actually helps us you know get to the get to the problem and and i think most modalities that help us actually cure things are are push back against and and drugs that are basically help numb and are recurring are are incentivized advised do you ever take it like just that fun like recreational or only medicinal i mean i've taken it recreational i thought it was awesome yeah i didn't high high level i'd say like it's it's impossible to even like articulate in like i don't have that english words to articulate how different like a like taking something at a concert is versus the therapeutic experience it's like it's like a different stratosphere like i truly think if people are called for do it a therapeutic high dose way gonna be one most impactful experience of their lives so it's just say it's very very very different the set and setting and dose but high level i think when you just compare the science on things like alcohol and other drugs that we take versus versus what these drugs do which are actually brain regenerative in many ways and very low side effects i think even how we think about recreational drug use is you know our government you know we we prescribed fifteen percent of high schoolers or basically meth you know adderall all which is which is literally like one molecule away from meth we you know caffeine pretty powerful alcohol is very harmful you know i i think we totally have it backwards on what's appropriate for recreational yourself i think it's i think it's just fine personally just from a medical perspective from a scientific leadership perspective even from like a spiritual perspective it's like you know people taking low doses a psychedelics and talking about their feelings talking about their lives getting deep i mean it it's kinda like where did this like where did like i was watching this thing for the eighties where they were talking about md a and it's like too many people are going dancing and feeling together and loving to each other it's like it's like it's like we're inside you watch like the the fear mon it's like is that a bad thing like and then there's like very little side effects so on the end of you make for those commercials this is like like this is your brain on drugs and it's just a flower it's nice it's there's no problem with it you know i i wanted to say thank you for coming on i appreciate your kind of your openness and i don't know your contra opinions because a i'll i'll be honest with you a lot of times when you were talking i was thinking is this a conspiracy theory or is this a fact at the same time i was thinking he sounds crazy but my eyes verify what he's saying meaning i look at the food we're we eat and we're sold i look at the people around me i look at the the health conditions and it you're not wrong about that and so i thought this is one of the more interesting episodes it's one of the few episodes i would say is an important episode like we do a lot of fun episodes interesting episodes but this is one of the few that i could say is important and yeah i just appreciate you coming on man this is this is a good time i appreciate you guys so much and my big pitch anyone listening that resonates there's a lot of economic opportunity if you agree with this thesis because it has to change and we need more entrepreneurs need more people thinking about changing health care ourselves because it has to move in that direction appreciate you guys so much listen to the podcast every episode and just awesome to talk shop with you guys you're the man we appreciate you thank you alright that's the pod i feel like i could rule world i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a day's off on a goal less travel never looking back