Selling Deodorant for $100M and How to Find Your Best Competitive Advantage with Moiz Ali

alright so mo is here and so i guess if people don't know so you started it's shared a couple business people mostly know you from native so you created which has popular deodorant brand you sold it to pro and gamble for reported hundred million dollars which i think is one of the better d exits because you only raised like four million dollars i wanna say less than that even we raised five hundred thousand dollars actually oh my god okay so you raised five hundred thousand dollars and by way i don't know if you know this i remember i was in a a match my group with your brother and i was like and he was like in between he had that he already sold his company so he's kind of it floating in between things it's like why do you show show up to the mastermind if you don't really have a business that you're working on so i think he was kinda like fishing and he was like you know my brothers got this interesting business and i was like i was like you know i didn't even know i didn't know very well the i was like didn't even know what you had her he's like and i was ready for this like big tech idea and he's like yeah he's like selling like this natural deodorant like and he made it sound like you're like sitting at home packing the deodorant like containers by hand and he's like he kind of was under playing he's like it's really cool you know it's para free i didn't know what a para was and he's like it's aluminum free or whatever and he's like that's doing pretty well and then he started to say the numbers and i was like whoa that's actually like really good i was like so how much is he raised he's like i don't know if he's he's like he's raised like nothing and so that's when you got to my radar the and you've i feel like you operated very quietly you're kinda like me where when you're doing something that's working you shut the hell up and when that's fine when you're not when you're just thinking about ideas you're like super loud to bounce some around off people is that your strategy that's exactly right in fact we done no p for nada until after we sold the business i remember with all these news publications reaching out to us and i took one interview with i think i was like retail dive or somebody and they're like we wanna talk about this deodorant company because we haven't heard of that and you know they're like who are you guys what are you doing and we sort of talked about the business and they wrote an article after that as like i'm never talking about the business again when we went to go fund rate like we talked to a few people we talked about simon equity partners which is basically the family office of like you had the simon property group which owns a bunch of balls across the united states and we opened up our books for them and we're rolling here's our business and they're like our job is to defined businesses like you and you know you're down the street from us you're based in san francisco your headquarters is three blocks away from hours we've never heard of this business and we should have heard of it right now how come and we're like you know we're not talking about our business like no one walked around with native t shirts until after we've made an until after we've made an exit and then i was like okay now the brand can exist and be we can be loud in public about it is that what is that is that paranoia is it just focus is it strategy what what why why do it that yeah i think it's two things i think one is fear which is like dear of embarrassment okay my business failed and i was super public about it and now it crashed and everybody's gonna think of me as a failure so i was like we're not gonna fail publicly if we fail it'll be really quietly and then two was like failed we failed the indian ways that's right personal shame yeah that's right that's right no one will be able to google me and be like okay mo always a film and then the other one was things were working so well we're like okay we don't know how this is working so well or why this is working so well but we better not go around something our chest saying this is working really well because one i believe it'll jinx us and i believe in jinx and two other people just start copying us and doing exactly what we're doing unlike like you know iso our i native in november twenty seventeen we have a competitor sell their business in december of twenty seventeen a month a month after at us and you know the in twenty eighteen twenty nineteen sixty competitors and the natural deodorant in space popped up and every brand it didn't have a natural deodorant owner it was like we should create a natural deodorant and then sixty brands were like hey we wanna create natural deodorant are flagship or our hero product and so by like not something or chats not talking about our business we were able to keep the category a little bit quieter before we came out and said hey this is a massive category and that's really working right and i i i i appreciate that about you guys i've actually learned a little bit in that regard in that i i don't talk about my e commerce business on forever ever or i'll reference about i never say the name or the brand or whatever yeah say someone takes i also have a business partner yeah i have a business partner and they don't want me talk about it i'm also like okay cool you know all honor that wish but i i kind of came up with this term because you and brother are the same in that normally you guys are all the info flows one way and this podcast is like the rare exception i get to ask you questions normally whenever i've seen your brother or you in any social setting it's a technique i call ali boarding and it's like downloading joining but just with questions where you just dump that someone's head into a vat of your nonstop flow of questions and by the end they're like wait so what's your name and what do you do and you're like by then you're like i have your p and l and like i have your whole family's backstory and it's not like in a evil way it's like genuine curiosity i think is what i've come to see but it's also very effective a is that true you do you believe that the if i am i characterizing it right and then b is that like conscious or un did you ever like develop that as a skill or was that a choice you made or is just natural yeah i think a is it's partially right it's more true it's solomon with my brother that that's with me and she does that to meet as well where like i'll tell him about you know a meeting i had or a deal that i'm looking at and he'll be he'll ask me ridiculous questions he'll be like what what the lunch what did the founder have for lunch on saturday three months ago i'm like i didn't get into that level of detail you gotta stop asking those types of questions but i do think we have genuine curiosity of like we're what's making other businesses work and what isn't it i remember we went in the super bowl you know four years ago or something like that in atlanta and we were at the super bowl party like the night before the game and there were these two old dac uncles they were there as well and they were there because they had they owned marriott hotels and marriott had invited them to the game in like their private suite and you know they're probably in their fifties and we have some so many quite i was like you know how much do you have to pay marriott and they also own a hilton notes i was like how much you have to pay hilton per year marriott per year you do you have debt on the building you do what's your debt like you know how often do you have to renovate how much of those renovations cost how much like you know what is your average occupancy look like and they answered all these questions and they were like it didn't seem excited to answer them but they didn't seem cautious like they didn't seem like they were hesitant either and at the end of all of these questions where we literally did have their p l you know we're like okay well you know they didn't ask a single question they were just like okay well clayton meeting you guys and we're like alright i now understand the hotel business from two operators that have eight businesses around the dallas fort worth area and they didn't wanna know anything about it us like why were we at the super bowl party how did we get here how did we make our money they didn't ask a single question so i there is a genuine curiosity that we have that sometimes has lost on other people that that's that's exactly how it goes i've seen it and then also you had like a brunch i saw you tweet out like oh been fighting some d friends over like who wants to have a brunch of d people and i was like oh what a nice guy just speak social or whatever at a friend who went to your brunch and he's like yeah the brunch is basically voice sits at the table of the table and he's like alright what's your c what's your and you're like asking a bunch of questions and i was like that sounds about right and i learned this from your brother i was like because i watched him one time and i was like if first one i talk to your brother now i'm like it's like a dual like he doesn't know this but in my head i'm like i'm gonna ask whatever end number of questions you ask n plus one will be asked back to you like you know because i will not be out questions because i know the tech but i started i started watching him when he talked to other people and i was like how does he get them to d so much information and again not in a bad way but just like what gets people in the flow of talking i'm like okay so first he's genuine curious like he's super engaged he's not looking around he's not looking at his phone he's actually looking at them in the id he's asking the bunch of questions i have noticed he does two things when they're saying something he likes or is like a smart thing he gives them tons of like you know nodding yep that makes total sense got it love it and then would they say something really stupid or weird or the company makes no sense i noticed that when somebody does it to me i'm like but that makes i like kinda start judging them a little bit and they can tell them i'm judging them and that makes them clam up well he'll just go hit this laugh and i'm like amazing and then he he says the word amazing and then moves on and amazing really means like wow it's amazing you're so stupid or it's amazing to like that or it's amazing that you don't even know that but like he never makes them feel bad he'll just be like like amazing and then he'll just go on to the next question and i realized that that is how he keeps the constant flow going so i'm studying this all onboarding technique and i think i'm gonna be pretty good i'm gonna be like you know a franchise of your of your question i love that yeah first we have to charge you per a question then but really he's like i think the other thing that he done really good or it really well is that he's like how do you think about something he never asked like you know what's your cat he'll be like how do you think about growth when it comes to social ads and like you know can you spend more there and the question is really open ended but he's like aiming for some he it really wants a response and people like right you know subconsciously get to it and yeah i've started asking how do you think about that all the time now because it really gets people to open up and tell me about how they're how they view their business i'm not just like a standard number and i really like that question and i've also franchise that from man when i started my business that you come one that he i told him about it and he had like you know some good questions and then like you know the way y'all brains work just like you know it non nonstop so i think at like two in the morning that same night he just sent or like actually was like five nights later it was like completely unrelated it was like five nights later two in the morning i get this email it's one line from him and he just says he says like with our business i knew we just it was this we just need to do this one thing and it would work like can he explained like the competitive like the the positioning like what we were gonna do different that was gonna cause it to work it was gonna be x but with y difference what's that gonna be for your business and then i was like that sent me into like a three week spiral of being like oh my god i need to know this answer that is the important question as i'm starting this business i really do need to have like a very strong point of view on what's gonna be the one thing that we're gonna do that's gonna make this business work better than all the others that are out there are better than you know how can we compete given that we're years late to the party and whatever else but it was such an important question and i was like man and like i ended bringing them on as kind of like an advisor where i was like man this is the value of an advisor is not the answer but the question the question that's gonna make you like think about your business in a way or like reveal a short in your own thinking that you then get to go fill in that gap for yourself yeah i think there's a lot of truth to that the one thing i would say is that like you know i've started an e commerce business and if someone asked me that about native when i launched the business i'd say i've got no idea we're aluminum free there are a bunch of aluminum free deodorant right now we're selling online is that better is that better than selling in store i've got no clue and so i think those questions are really helpful but i think the fear that some of those questions can cause in terms of people being like i need to figure out this answer before i can do x or y before i can launch my product before i can start spending marketing dollars like you can figure out that answer well after your business is launched and i think for native that really changed like you know we were an aluminum freight deodorant and selling it on the internet and was like that's gonna be our competitive advantage and then it became a little bit of like sense you know like fragrances we have a strategy of launching new fragrances frequently and those fragrances are different and people are gonna pantry load and buy a bunch of deodorant so it's not just buying one until you run out but i've got seven because this is gonna be your fragrance rather than your perfume perfume cologne and then it was like different marketing ideas and bundling products and launching new categories like there are very few brands that it can expand from d to body wash to toothpaste like you know old spice can never make a toothpaste we're like we're gonna create a brand that can do all of those and it stands for better for you ingredients rather than one single thing and i i think that question the answer to that question evolved been changed and i think that question is great and people should think about that in the back of their minds but it shouldn't prevent them from actually taking the first step to launching their business totally totally agree also about the like can progressive like iteration of that question of the of the answer but also i also learned what a good answer to that is a good answer is not we're doing this magical thing that nobody's is doing because usually that just doesn't exist like realistically like that's probably a signal that it's a bad idea not that it's a great idea and also not that like we are gonna jump through these fourteen really hard to jump through hoops like i'm gonna crack i'm gonna be viral all the time it's like oh god like that seems like a bad strategy to back instead it was like actually there's a category that people want and what we're gonna do is like people don't don't like this one thing about the main competitor we're gonna do that one thing like it's just common sense we're gonna do that one thing differently and like i'm just gonna ob obsessed over facebook ads in a way that they're not like or just in a way that will work like facebook ads are just working for businesses like this so i'm gonna do facebook ads it's like almost the stupid or the answer the better but like the clearer the answer the better too like do you even know what you're betting on that's like what do you think is gonna work here and like can you back that up as to why you think that's gonna work but you don't want it to be a genius magical like magical silver bullet solution that like nobody has ever thought of or nobody has ever pulled off because that's usually just a sign of like weakness actually in the plan especially as when you talk about like partnership to collaborations where people have like i'm betting my future on the ability to get other people to do x y and z like that's never gonna work i couldn't agree more it could be right we're look we're gonna create a digital first brand that looks better we're gonna have a better user interface and we have more better colors and it's gonna look better your countertop like native deodorant or your bathroom you know shelf like like native deodorant and that was it like that was the that's that's an entire plan and that's perfectly fine and i just looking here yeah got it no got it okay so so the idea is example of doing that so you know the the so most of who listen to this are probably not not not brown or daisy that they'll don't know this brand but like if you ever been to like an indian grocer which there's all around the country there's a bunch of those like you know you go buy buy look you know they're sort of like ethnic foods there's this brand called healthy rom which is basically they make like just like this like super addictive salty little snack it's like fried it's like equivalent of chips it's like fried salty kinda spicy you just buy this thing it's like it's like a trail mix basically that's that's salty and and so it's been around forever they do like five hundred million a year in sales they're like you like a juggernaut of of a of a consumer packaged good brand they're like super profitable don't do any like advertising and like they're just like they're they're massive and so like i think one idea is like holy rom but with like packaging that's just different like different packaging slightly better for you like maybe it's baked and not fried and like that's the whole business plan like i don't need to know more to start the just that and i think that that's a plan somebody could take today and go start like okay so then what are you gonna do for this like i don't know or the same as everybody else like that you can do i don't know or the same as everybody else for all other questions as long as you just have that one thing which is like these guys do like five hundred million in sales and they sell mostly through these like in new grocer i'm gonna do that but with better packaging because their packaging looks like my mom's packaging i'm just gonna make it look like my packaging like you know the stuff i'm used to buy yeah and i can cater to caucasian as a result of that like you know yes the packaging that the entire role is good to understand it's not available only in ethnic grocer serves there it is that's our business model liking their product in a better bag we're like two thirds of opinions have diabetes and i'm just gonna make mine like better for people diabetes and i'm just get right baked not fried and like it's better for you because of that yeah you know the guys who started in nature nature boxes this company based with san francisco that's so like a soul you snacks of trail mix basically and shifting either to your home or your office their original business model was we're you gonna go buy this at whole foods put it in different sized packaging and just ship it to your hats like you know what's the difference between this and whole foods trail mix literally not that no packaging difference no ingredient difference they literally go and buy it and you know ship it to your hats and that was it an insta cart like started and they're like what are we gonna do you have a grocery list you just email it to us and we're gonna go for it like really simple ideas right they were not like you know groundbreaking by any stretch of imagination that built huge businesses and you invested in man pretty early on i think right yeah yeah investment in landscape to probably three or four years ago now and so you investment in landscape and it's been one of your i think you tweeted out one of your best performing investments what did they do like what's their version of this like the stupid simple plan that like just makes sense and it doesn't have to be rocket science but like a simple plan executed well what was their version of that yeah i think a two things i think one was they're like look we've created a product specifically for your balls even though the razor that works on your face works under like you know if got electric trimmer for your face right works on your balls as well it's not like it's different hair it possibly more coarse but like that trimmer is gonna work there and so they're like look we've created an electric trimmer specifically for your balls and and like you know that that might appeal to people who don't have electric trimmer with their face like i imagine you do it's hard to keep these beards trimmed well but like you know if you've got it for your face you can probably use the same thing for your balls if you're comfortable with that they're like hey you're using a gillette razor blade because you're clean shave in we've got something specific for your ball so i think that was really smart there they're like hey use this product for a category that you probably aren't using it for and then two was like branding and name they're like you know they got the name right they got the trademark right i think those were probably really hard for them to get although i'm not like involved enough to know that and i'm like you they've done a good job with a unique and differentiated branding like they had they had a barge sale up and down south beach in miami and they had a big billboard on it and it said god bush use man like they've done really unique things in order to get their name out there in a way that i think a lot of other direct to consumer businesses that failed where we're like you know native would run billboards and we're like here's an aluminum free deodorant if these come by it really didn't get your attention these guys have done a good job of that and like you know today they posted on the update i have a billboard new york city right now instead of the heart emoji it's an upside down heart emoji so it looks like a you know test sack basically that's really clever branding and like really clever thinking and so they're fantastic at that and i think what's really difficult is that stuff doesn't scale it's not like if the guy who's like you know there's two guys thinking about this kind of stuff and they retire you're not gonna be able to hire or teach that skill to somebody else you've gotta find two rock stars that are able to pull that off otherwise and i think that's gonna be difficult for them but so far they're just knocking gonna out of the park and you see a ton of brands a ton of d brands you're probably like you know one of when somebody has a company you're probably one of the most i don't know desired like investor advisor type dudes you like that's your authority right people trevor wanna do what you've done and then you've also invested in so many that now you have that portfolio in experience as well but you also see a bunch of d brands do stupid shit so what are some of the like kind of like give me your rant on the things you see d brands doing wrong what are some of the common mistakes you see that drive you nuts because i know that like both of and brother it's like operational like you know operational excellence is what turns you on and operational like you know ignorance or whatever you know is what like you know drives you nuts and so give me some of the things you see brand's doing wrong or or stupidly yeah over hiring and like spending money on dumb things like you know native was doing probably we in a fifty million run rate close to a fifty million dollar run rate when we sold the business and we had eight people at the time and when i left you know was certainly doing a north of a hundred million a year and you know we probably had thirty or thirty or so people on the two like there were not that many people for a brand that was doing a lot of revenue you know i've walked into offices where people have twenty people you know there'll be twenty people doing two million dollars or four million dollars in revenue and i'm like what are all these human beings doing like if there you do have this many people here send them to the subway of handing up free like coupon cards to people who are getting off the subway this is too many people inside your office to be working out a four million dollar year brand and so i think that's a that's a real like you're burning way too much money if you have that many people you have goldman sachs had the standard of like we wanna do one million in revenue per employee that we have that should be something that's rather easy to do for for direct to consumer businesses i sit on a board of a company called broom mate which makes like like you know drink ware think like you know like hydration kits or or can coolers for slim cans the the they had one employee and they were doing thirty million dollars a year like only the founder dylan was at the company and he was doing thirty million dollars year now we get some outsourced agencies that he was working with help and run help them run facebook ads and to help them do customer service stuff but like you had one guy and one guy in the payroll so you can easily flex up and down with those agencies depending on how the business was going so i think a hiring over hiring is a real problem the other thing i think is like another way to spend money poorly is like a beautiful office i remember walking to some direct to consumer founders businesses when i was running native and i was like wow this brand is super successful look at how nice offices they have a big they have a logo on their you know i'm a wall right when you walk in after we sold our business the first time p and g came to our office because you know we've been doing it off site so as not to tell everyone you know if if thirteen people from pro and gamble will walk into our office with eight people people are gonna be like hey what's going on here so we were kept meeting off side and finally when they walked in that you know there was a sticker on the door that said native like it was a was a sheet of paper i had written out native by with a sharpie marker and taped on the door and that was our office it was like you know done in with one penny and they were like is this seriously your office was like yeah of course is our office and they're were like this is the cheapest office i could possibly have imagined and i was like hey we care about dollars and so you know i used to be afraid of being frugal and i'd be like wow so embarrassed now i'm like it's a real batch we're running with fiscal like you know we're fiscal conservative when it comes to this business and we care about dollars and they're my dollars i wanna spend them well so i think that's the second thing and i think the third thing is really poor marketing a lot of founder like if i if i ask a founder hey what is your cat last month and you don't know that is a terrible sign if you're doing under forty million dollars a year in revenue and you don't know when your cat was last month that's crazy you don't know what your cat was yesterday that's okay but like you should know what it would prob you probably should know and like you know you you know if i ask you at ten am and you don't know that's okay if i ask you at two pm and you still don't owe you copied yesterday that's a real problem you're just not involved in the numbers stuff like this is how you grow these businesses it's paid ads or some sort some sort of advertising spend versus return on that investment and if you're not familiar with those numbers you're you know being grossly ne with your business and you you used to do a bunch of like kind of like hands on un scalable stuff like this so i think you you know i don't know to this day but like you i showed you what we do as far this morning we were talking and i showed you what we do as far as like every day in excel we hand write here's a spend here's the yeah here's the new customers we got here's the blended ro here's the c here's how much from email and we rather every single day into this spreadsheet and i'm sure there's like more automated ways to do it but it's not perfect and like the practice of doing it by hand makes you think about each of these numbers because like why is this number always fifty two and like i need to get this number to not be fifty you i'm tired of writing effing fifty two on this spreadsheet sure like i just need if this business if this number was forty two we will be making so much more money okay that becomes my daily focus what are and i i've seen you tweet out about like people going and like like they go to target they like watch the aisle themselves to see how people are buying their brand or what they're not you know what what they're doing when they choose the brands what are some of those un unfavorable things you've done yourself or what are your favorite kinda like give me some scrappy stories of like stuff that that like you did as an operator or your favorite operators have done sure you know i used to email every single customer native and i was like hey what you know you bought our deodorant do you like it or do you not like it if you like it leave a review and if you don't like it email me back and tell me why you don't like this and you know we were doing three hundred thousand two hundred fifty thousand dollars in revenue before we heard our first customer service rep like i was looking at every single one of those emails being like what's working here and what is it and that's how we got our product better we'd listen to consumer feedback and you know we sent out yeah we were doing five hundred six hundred orders a day probably more than that so we're getting a lot of customer service responses to that type of inquiry but literally every single customer ever purchased from us i would wait like you know five days until it was too late for you to return the product because if you emailed us and you're like i hate this thing i can i return it i want be like no your paperwork passed returns at deadline you can't do that any longer so i literally had it scheduled from like you know at date if you can return a product for thirty days i had scheduled to go day forty because i was like you know it's gonna take five days in shipping and so day forty we would email you and be like tell us what you like and what you don't like and you know we're gonna go and try and fix these things we once had we invite you a bunch of consumers to a location and then it started growing them with questions hey you you know there were consumers that have purchased from us a bunch they lived in san francisco and we're like why do you like native deodorant why you think it works better than other deodorant into the market because you know people would be like it has probiotics that's why it works better than than other deodorant and i was like what makes you like it does have pro probiotics but you have no idea whether that's effective or not but i was like no matter what we do with our formula we have to keep some level of probiotic in there because people think probiotic means efficacy whether it does or not and so those are the types of things that were really interesting and fun and you know non scalable you know i also you you were talking about solomon was start talking about by business and how i pack boxes i did pack boxes pack boxes until we're were probably doing that eighty thousand dollars in revenue a month like you know monday wednesday and friday go home after working put on star trek and start packing boxes and you know i was like okay i do i knew how much a box wait i knew i'm filler paper to put in there i knew how much a box wade when like you know with deodorant and without deodorant i knew how to optimize this price i i knew when we were creating custom boxes i was like i wanna box weigh one ounce and not one point three ounces because at one point three ounces it tips us over this level and at one ounce it doesn't i'd go to a contract manufacturer all the time be like hey we're seeing these types of fuck ups what's going on here and so i was like intimately familiar with a formula i knew the steps to how to pour their a formula what what temperature we ported out at and like native was being hand poor we were making twenty thousand units of native at deal right a day and we were hand pouring each single bar so there were there were about a hundred people working in austin texas hand pouring deodorant rents and you know the best person could hand pour about thousand deodorant rents a day and a new person could hand pour about seventy five deodorant rents a day and went to train these people to go from seventy five to a couple hundred or five hundred and that was really interesting as well and so there was a and i mean that's not scalable certainly hand pouring and deodorant isn't scalable but we went from five hundred units of deodorant in a week to twenty one thousand a day still hand pouring it so it was more scalable than i thought it was gonna be and how much of that is you being a man versus like good strategy right so like if somebody my company was doing that be like why are you doing this you need to hire somebody so you can do something higher leverage but clearly it kinda worked for you to be like i mean i can doing all the things yourself so like you know what's the line what's the right way to think about that yeah that's a great question i think if you're in a completely divorce from customer feedback you're setting yourself up disaster unless you've created you know a flywheel that you know exactly how it works like you know when native was doing a hundred million dollars of of sales a year i probably wasn't in customer service any longer but when it was doing fifty million in sales a year i was in cup you know it's was probably the number one if not the number two customer service agents and so like you know you need that feedback to understand what's working and what's not where their problems in my business and where they're not and so like i don't know what the right line is but divorcing yourself from customer feedback at under twenty five million dollars a year is bananas to me you're not gonna know what people love about your product and what they don't love and you're not gonna know like you know we have operational issues that i wasn't aware of we'd be like shipping is taking an extra three days when it go when it's going to california what's going on here like is there a problem in california is there problem with our shipping company sometimes we'd run out of things and no one would know until customer emailed us be like hey i'm waiting four days and we're like we're out of this we're out of coconut on vanilla i don't believe and then we check our inventory and we're like how did we run out like we did such a no only did we do a poor job at inventory forecasting we weren't even aware of that we ran out when we ran out and so those were a couple of the ridiculous things that would happen but like you know because you're intimately involved you're able to like you know understand the business at a deeper level and i think like really being engaged at you know what does my shipping look like you know how can i make shipping faster so i can reduce costs is the weight of the box or the weight of the filler or the size different there was a company that i knew that i i was front of the ceo in san francisco his box he was shipping through amazon and his box that he was shipping in was about a half inch too large and it went from being extra light it went from being like an a large box with a custom large box and so his shipping rate went up like seventy dollars a box because of this half inch she had and like you know when people discovered there when you discovered at these like i can't believe we've been shipping like this for so long you know if you're intimately involved you're probably gonna catch those things a little bit earlier right and so you let let's zoom out so you you've seen d change you you also have seen you know you're also invest in stock market and so you've seen shopify amazon facebook give me on each of those three stocks give me your lay of the land on like what you think has happened and where you think that those are going are they trending are are they rightly priced are they under priced or overpriced you know give me give me let's do shopify first and then we'll do facebook and then amazon sure okay right and for context i've lost millions of dollars in shopify stock in the last six months and you know i wrote is twitter thread about as well and i was like shopify keeps their there are their motto to arm the rebels and i i said they keep giving us some musk in a war that's being fought with like nuclear weapons and you when you put out tweets like this and you you basically say hey here's what i think you should do with your strategy or if i was ceo here's what i'd be doing or like as somebody who's lost millions of dollars on your stock here's some things that i think could help do you ever hear back you is it crickets do you hear get other interesting inbound what what happens after you put that out there because i've done that a few times and i've gotten very interesting situations occur from my my my tweets like that what's happened for you definitely interesting situations toby who's the ceo of shopify if i respond he's like these are great points so did harley use the president and definitely had some more interesting calls and i'm not sure if that that twitter thread which was a couple months ago now you know inform them and help them create this lookalike audience system that they're creating a shopify that's wonderful i don't want any credit just go do it so that we can go get cheaper you know cost customers so that we can acquire customers at a cheaper rate and build better businesses like you know go build out these products and make the of the platform fantastic you know bunch of people pay cla y more than they pay shopify a bunch of people pay recharge more than they pay shopify like these are shopify apps that it provide you with a small segment of like you or a small thing compared to what shopify enables you to do you know it provides some of these services at cheaper costs or building some of these services to make the platform better like you know triple wheels doing a fantastic job at analytics why doesn't shopify build their own subscription platform instead of outsourcing it to recharge which everybody hates and which charges of fortune like what's going on there it's been you've been publicly traded for years this this is arming us well this is arming the rebels and so let's let's shift away from d let's do other types of investing because you do real estate you've tried to buy pieces of sports teams you've tried a bunch of different things so let's just start with the big picture so give me a a pie chart percentage wise of what do you do with your money so you you yeah you came to a bunch of money you i what's in cash what's in real estate what's in stock what do what are you doing percentage wise roughly for those great question great question and i think the answer is i should know the answer i know my cat from like you i should know you're bad yeah and this is me not knowing my cat which is embarrassing the that like probably around ten million in private equity probably around forty million or fifty million in cash which is a lot and not like the cash cash where i'm like literally holding in cash but like really short term bonds waiting for bond prices to go up it's a down starting to leg into positions where i feel like interest rates are getting more more exciting and so i'll put my money there so you know i've been investing in really short term bonds that you know aren't really subject to much interest interest rate risk because they've got six month mat and not five year you know bonds that are more subject interest rate risk and you know since interest rates have gone up over the last four months i've started to deploy more capital in that respect but a lot of cash probably twenty five million in real estate thirty million real estate that i'm like you know that i or you know my family owns and we're operating ourselves and then probably another ten million in real estate as lp somewhere here there i don't know how much money that is but then there's like you know i know then there's like random probably another ten million in startup up investments so maybe more than ten million certain investments question probably around ten million in the stock market maybe a little bit less now that shopify facebook have gotten cr so maybe less than that now but i'm not exactly sure what the amount there are and why such a big cash is that to be conservative is that just i'm so busy i haven't figured out how i'm gonna deploy all this yeah or is it like intentional like no i want to have let's say fifty percent forty fifty percent cash and kind of bonds it's more reactive than it is proactive like i'd love to be more invested and part of it was actually like you know proactive in terms of waiting for interest rates for to go up again because you know if you invested two years ago over three years ago you've barely gotten any return under dollar so i was like we can sit on cash and not be subject to so much interest rate risk now i'm getting more excited about that but a lot of it is you know when you get to a certain scale of wealth you hire professionals who are like private wealth managers to help you deploy your capital in a way that's really intelligent the way that's unique and you know supposedly gives you a competitive edge because you have more capital to deploy so you're able to hire smarter people to deploy that and you know earn a greater return that's the stick that they sell you i'm not sure that sc is real at all like private wealth managers have been really disappointing like no one is doing anything unique in this industry you know if you ask two private wealth managers what's the difference between you and this other person they'll just shit on the other person and you'll be like what are you gonna get me like what are you gonna invest me in that this person isn't like what's your competitive advantage do you have access to deals that this person doesn't have access to they're like no we're both manage the same amount of money we've been around the same amount of time and they're like you know have you heard of elliott i'm like yeah i've heard of elliot so wall street journal every fucking day i'm pretty sure everyone could get me into like you know their fund is twenty billion dollars i'm sure anyone could get me in and they're like yeah anyone could get you in there but we know them really well i'm like okay i don't know what that means and so like i guess where i've been disappointed in where i've been lost in this world is how do i deploy my capital in a really effective way and you know every like you know if i tweet something about this i tweet tweeted like hey if you've got three hundred thousand dollar if you're earning three hundred thousand dollars a year it's really hard to know what to do with your buddy you're not reaching out for the private wealth manager and you're too rich for the bank of america person who sits at in a retail branch and you know i got a bunch of people who like i do this for three hundred out people who were about three hundred thousand dollars year i didn't bet any of them but like they were aggressive and like you know these private wealth managers if you sell a business they just reach out to you and they're like help us let us manager money and you're like what are you gonna put me and literally none of them say anything unique none of them add their own things are just like we're gonna invest you in this other guys fund and every private wealth manager can get you in there for instance with public equities they all tell you go invest with para they do tax loss harvesting you'll get an extra point two five percent to point five percent return over the s and p five hundred if you invest in para as opposed to doing this as opposed to just investing in a vanguard etf but they all tell you to do that why would like you know why use goldman sachs instead of first republic instead of a smaller boutique fund if you're all just gonna invest with the this dollars with para you're all the same at that point it's like you know it's like buying an airline ticket from kayak or ex ex but riding on american airlines and getting the exact same seat ultimately you're getting the same product and so i haven't been smart enough and spent enough time figuring this stuff out gotcha and then what about a crypto you don't do anything crypto and is there like a strong opinion like oh it's all you know for ga or or or or you just haven't had time very little with crypto i'm like investor in a couple fund of funds that have made a fortune in crypto so these funds have returned significant amount and it wasn't in there sort of like fun charter to go invest in crypto but they get it anyway and they're like look we're up you know ten thousand percent so you can't complain know they're like look we turned your a dollar it's a ten thousand dollars you can't be a you can't be an asshole lp and be like what the fuck you can't do it they're like here's ten thousand dollars shut book up so you know they could do it generally i just don't understand the value yet and so i've been hesitant to get a error i'm not i'm not opposed to it you know everyone says invest five percent of your net wealth in it book i wouldn't invest five percent of my net wealth for it you know it's hard because the same parts of the world are like voice you're not investing in crypto what the fuck are you doing and the warren buffett of the world are like if you offered me all in the crypto in the world for twenty dollars i would not buy it and so i guess i've just been sitting on the sidelines i don't know if it's good or bad but if someone has a strong opinion compute me please do so okay i'm wanna resist the urge to do that right now because people have thought rent too many times on it alright so i guess let's let's do a little bit like let's do a little touch on a real little real estate then we'll do the personal stuff so real estate yeah you've been deploying but now it feels like the landscape has changed i think you kinda have an opinion on what's changed give me your current take on like what do you see and what are you doing yeah so i look a native in february twenty twenty and right when covid was gonna have hit like i was like i'm gonna go to europe and i'm gonna i'm gonna go france i'm gonna try and drink all of the wine they produced in twenty nineteen in february twenty twenty in france and then covid hit and instead i was stuck with my parents like you know all day and it's a very different experience and i suspected it was gonna be and so i started by real estate and so from like january or from february twenty twenty to probably the end of twenty twenty one i bought about fifty or so units on generally single family homes some duplex some four two units in you know and then aside from those fifty units two units in like california where they're like old apartment buildings that are really small and we're renovating and then that was an lp in a bunch of different funds you know everyone who bought in twenty nineteen you look like a fucking genius like people like wow you're such as a savvy real estate investor i was like i i started buying because i had nothing else to do you know if they were gonna return money they're gonna return five percent they're returning twelve fourteen percent now and that's fantastic but i'm not i very savvy about it i i haven't used leverage which is really stupid of me and you know it's really stupid today because if i borrowed you know a year ago i would gotten two half percent interest i could just invested in on ten year bond and made money i just haven't used leverage in part because i'm too lazy to try and get it and in part because i'm like you know i've gotten enough capital to deploy already and the returns have been fantastic you know i i bought homes and i was underwriting for six percent returns that are twelve fourteen percent returns they're crazy i bought a four p for six hundred thousand dollars i thought each unit that would rent out like eight hundred dollars they're each renting out for about fourteen hundred dollars now so it's i'm making a fortune people are struggling with rents and so state governments are often stepping in and providing rents to landlords like you know we get a call being like hey john campaigns rent we're gonna cover the rent for the next eighteen months and you know they'll cut you a check for eighteen months of rent and late fees which is bananas and so it's been a fantastic investment but yeah i am slowing down now and do you think where do you think this goes are you gonna you're slowing down but is you're slowing down because you're sort of for like okay i'm allocated how much i wanna be allocated or you're slowing down because like wait this no longer these prices no longer make sense it's not even the prices don't make any sense any longer i this this is the one asset cost where like i have a really long term view you know stocks i look i've been in shopify if i never sold a share facebook i've been in i've never sold a share have had them both for five years if not longer microsoft have been in for in more than a decade i remember buying it while i was in in my admin law class in law school and i still held every one of the shares so look you know generally like i i'm a pretty good long term investor real estate i think of myself as like you know i will never sell any unit in in real estate like my children will inherit with us or you know natural disasters will take these things into the ocean i'm okay with either of those but i will not sell one under any circumstance so i'm not really worried about prices you know in in terms of cap long term but i do think there'll be a small market correction so i i i guess i've slowed down my purchasing i'm still under contract by two or three units in the next couple months but i'm not like before i was trying to buy you know a unit a week or you know two units a month and now i'm sort of like let me buy a unit a month or less just to see what happens to the market as interest rates go up i think these prices will come down a little bit but i like you know i a lot of my cash is in real estate you know twenty five thirty million dollars i i'm not staring it at like you know if the market crashes no nobody will be more excited than me i will deploy all the cash i'm sitting on for this i have no problem if that thirty million dollars goes down to five i will not get like this is the one asset class where i will not get scared i will double triple or quadruple triple down as opposed to being like oh my god i got someone what i've got and that's just because you're like this is a concrete assets there's limited supply there's it's always gonna be demand yeah it's such a the same mentality you know it's like my parents mentality of like big cash flows it's immune to facebook ad prices it's immune to the stock market it's like generally like it's real diversification for my e commerce and startup up investments like these things will exist they're generally they're primarily in the south with the exception of a few in california and a few in colorado they're places where people are moving to and not moving from and so i'm excited about them and yeah and so i i would never i i have no desire to sell them get emails and call all the time no excitement whatsoever to sell love holding this stuff and generates it's a ton of cash and you know the other way i think about it is and this is also pretty decent mentality it's like okay i've got all these expenses per year and no job i need something to make up for that like note these expenses like i wanna dip into capital i don't believe like you like the thousand never goes down in the invalid yeah always that's right i'm terrified of the balance going down and so like i need something to afford my lifestyle and this real estate helps me afford my lifestyle usually go that that's i'm i don't know if i'm just too dumb or too lazy but it's one of the two where i'm like i basically picked two lanes to think about and i was like i don't really have the like mind share to be able to think about like if i go into real estate today i'm the dumbest guy in the room okay well it doesn't take a genius to do real so that's okay i think if i put my mind to it i could do that but that's now my mental cycles that are not going towards my business or the stuff i'm more interested in where i think i can have a bigger edge where i think i can be for like the top one percent rather than like the sixty you know sixty percentile or whatever sure and so that that's the first part is like do i want to try to learn this game from scratch if i'm gonna do anything direct or even if i'm gonna invest in funds i gotta have some ability to vet these funds to pick yeah but okay they're they're all pretty safe you can get your five six percent it seems like you know without the you it's not totally variable like that the other thing is like in didn't direct i just like who is gonna have the time to manage all this like i did one transaction buying my house that i was gonna bought i was gonna live in in san francisco it this the process of the dealing with the bank to get the loan and then the closing the s grow and then the inspections and it was like i couldn't do anything else i was like paralyzed from like actually doing stuff i like because i was constantly having to nurse this project and i was like i can't imagine buying fifty units in a year to or you know twenty units in a year and like the amount of just transactional like logistics that i would have to go yeah it's such a turn off from like for what is the return basically the same average as a stock market in long term okay like i don't have to diversification is not that important to me to like do both of those things like the mental cycles plus the physical energy would take to do the transactions and then manage them and then like you you know my my tenant calls you know my property manager calls me about the tenant that's calling me about whatever don't actually even know what goes it but i know it's not nothing and right now tolerance is nothing for like or like headache yeah and this isn't like you know someone calls you out a monday being like my ac is broken and it's in san antonio texas you can't be like i'm i'll get back to you thursday like you know it's a hundred and ten degrees outside you need to get that fixed in the next twelve hours so you're right there is a lot of pain there when i was purchasing manager the i've rent the current place that i live in and i called was like there's like a weird smell he's like okay so like where's does it come on there i don't know a smell i i i can't see it he's like okay like what kind of stuff is like know it's just like bad it's like smells really bad he's just like you gotta give me something and i was like and it's sunday and they'll you need to send someone here because i can't have a house with a bad smell like and i'm just like got kids you know that that's the card and i'm like you gotta send somebody now to figure out this mystery thing and then the the guy comes over he's like where's the crawl space i'm like i don't know it's on my house i don't know go ask this guy in arizona who owns this house who's ninety years old go ask him where the crawl spaces is of this property because it's his problem to like fix this for me and i'm just gonna be a baby about it and then i think about what it's like to be on the other side of that and i'm like is that worth the like five hundred dollar like net that he's making per month on my on my rent like probably not for me that point yeah yeah yeah no you're absolutely right about that and what was in the crawl space was like i don't know never found it the guy didn't get back to me on now space such like we have the right idea where it is the guy like it's sealed up on hole so he's like maybe this will help the smell go away that was i was like okay well we still don't know what's causing the smell you just bottle it up like whatever's is in the wall that's dead or whatever to be on here yeah sure he's like he he's like he he the guy came over and now google translate he typed out he's like if the smell still here tomorrow i'll come undo the whole wall thing i just did and i'll go find what's in there i was like bro can't you just do that now can we not go into the wall now why do we gotta do with that on google translate that's hilarious yeah a bunch of a bunch of the real estate i bought is like an auction and so when you walk like there very there's no inspection there's no financing ability like you know you bid on auction you you write you know you wire the money the next day and then you opened the house and you're like what did i just get into and so sometimes you'll walk it like there was a one house i i purchased and the guy passed away not in the house but like everything was still inside of his house forks and knives spoons his cards were in the garage get a safe in there which a empty of the entire house out before we could rent it out and you know you have no like that was a mediocre situation because like you know everything was still in okay shape he used to live there there was another house i got that was in perfect shape like you couldn't like you know you go into the house and mean try to look through the blinds to find out what the condition is gonna be inside this one you couldn't see at all is the only house i've been where was like i couldn't see it all and i opened up the lock when after i bought it and it's in perfect condition there have been houses that i bought i walked in and i'm like fuck i you know i'm gonna have to spend forty thousand dollars that i didn't under write for replacing the roof or changing the tile or putting in a new kitchen and so it is a lot of like rolling the dice at least in the in the with the way that i purchased and sort of using you know the law of large numbers to be like this is gonna make sense at some point and sometimes it does and sometimes you gets screwed and you know you just eat the ones that gets screwed like there had been two that i purchased in two years ago that are still not rented because i haven't done to work to go and fix the houses to make them habitable and that's you know that's a lot of capital being that was deployed and nothing's happening with right now that yeah you need to just like get some youtuber who does like he's trying to make content about like renovating home like hey you can use my home and like you get you know x expert and you get to use all the content this is your home sir go ahead and maybe love flip thing definitely you know that'd would be great you and your brother both do this which is i think you treat business like a like a like business is your fun like your adventure i i feel the same way and i asked him because out he he gave me money and he he was like i'm an adviser your company and i was like cool but like just so you know like why are you doing this like i want you to do this but like as your friend i'm like why are you doing this this is a waste of your time like this is never gonna make enough money to move the needle like your share of this is never gonna make enough money to justify the time and energy and like it's not gonna move the needle for you so like really this makes no sense why are you doing this and he goes he said i he goes he goes like i am not happy unless i am like ent in you know in a business and he's like but as he's like as long as i get to create the i wanna live in a prison of my own making and like as long as like it's to choose i'm good but like i'm also not like i can't be content fulfilled unless i'm like unless i'm locked into like a raging battle with like you know some like business thing and i was like wow that's crazy but it also makes sense to me and you're the same way when you're like how do i do real estate on hard mode like you could just lp a bunch of funds and you're like i'm gonna go buy stuff i'm just gonna buy good stuff i'm gonna buy stuff at auctions and i'm gonna go have to take like a you know two by four and break off a lock and then like walk in and see what i got and then like figure how to turn this into like fourteen hundred dollars a month of rent and you're like yes right sign me up whereas i'm like that's like that's what you do to get to your your spot you got there and then went back to the beginning and like i'm now gonna call you i don't even know this analogy but like i always heard my engineers talk about servers that run on bare metal like i don't know enough about servers to know what the fuck that means but it was always like what's the most like hardcore way this server can run it's like optimized for performance and like just the just the term bare metal like just told me everything i needed to know about what the hell they were talking about it's like this kind of waste of time hard mode way of doing something that does yield like the best return and like satisfaction of like optimizing the space yeah i just like squeezing the juice out of the fruit and like to me it's like mo you're like you like to operate on bare metal it's like you're choosing to like play this game on like you're like how do i hand right my ut parameters on my ads and then like how do i you know stock my deodorant sticks myself and answer every customer service question and then how do i like buy real estate at a fore closed auction with no financing and no diligence and then like figure out how to make that work you're bare metal you know there is like first the the i learned how to break into houses like i learned how to pick locks because of real estate like i can walk into a house now and like open it up pretty much because and like i i carry tools with me when i'm traveling to these houses to be able to like open up homes so that i can go inside which is a little bit crazy and and in fact i saw my parents my parents are you know too old like an older indian couple obviously there are like fur and walk you know my mom will be like my knee hurts and she walks with a limp and then when she's trying to break into a house with me she'll turn like yoda where she could do spin she's like what if i climb up to the top of the ceiling and like chip you know jimmy down the chimney i think i can get us in there and i'm like i thought you need her but now now you're perfectly fine you can like climb this wall and like you know go off the go the into the chimney and she's like yeah i got it for this but i think that really i think there's a lot of in my family there's just a lot of interest in business and so being an lp is a ton of fun and i'm an lp in a bunch of these real estate and i'm like looking at the numbers and some are making good money and some aren't but like you know there's no sex to it it's it's a paper money like you know bring me the sexy problems like oh your toilet is broken what the fuck are you doing here why is your toilet break every day oh the government is gonna write me a check for eighteen months this is crazy the government is gonna pay you late fees the government is gonna call me and be like hey boys you got a house here this guy can't pay its rent gonna pay you eighteen months of future rent and the last two months and late fee for the last two months tell me why you're doing this how did you get to this who thought this was a good idea you know does craig abbott think this is a good idea because that's a lot of money you're gonna give me and so you know business is great and making money is great but it's a lot more fun to be an active participant rather than at a sidelines parts participant like i don't wanna i don't wanna read what's in the wall street journal and if be like okay that's great i wanna be like a part of that system that's going on there's a great like analogy where this guy who's a partner in a big law firm his name was joe flo worked at sc arp this was back in like the eighties and nineties where there were all these mergers happening he's he was like eighty years old and he slipped and fell in his bathroom and his head was bleeding and he walked into this board meeting because he was part of this board then needed to fend off a hospital acquire and he had paper towels on his head because he was bleeding and he was eighty years old and people like what the fuck is going on you're bleeding profusely and your eighties like i slipped in film and they're like go to the hospital and he's like no i wanna be hear and they're like what what's going on he's like i don't care if i'm you know acquiring a company or fighting off and acquire i just wanna be in the game and nothing is gonna stop me and this guy is eighty and bleeding and had paper towels on his head but he wanted to be in the game and i really respect that like i wanna be in the game that's the where there's a lot of fun in life you you watch basketball right yeah do you which like athlete or in any sport it doesn't matter which athlete are you like i admire their like the way they do their thing is how i do nothing or how i want to do my yeah tom brady tom brady for two like i remember he wanted super bowl and there's a sixty minutes like interview with him at twenty seven who's this was not as like you know seven super bowl this is like in second and they're like so what do you you know you're a super bowl champion nfl mvp what do you think and he's like is this all there is to life like that's what he said at the end he's like is this all there is and you know then he retired after two weeks he's like i gotta get back in the game i had two weeks off this is boring i need to be back in the game and he's just like an ultimate competitor and i really admire that about but i'm sorry that was the answer to the question that's that's great i don't know do you have five five more minutes i wanna do yeah yeah got on the personal alright so what were you asking about the athlete stuff though i didn't mean interrupt you no that's what i asking i just wanna know we who you admire i can find this client in full have you heard of hubspot hubspot is a crm platform so it shares its data across every application every team can stay aligned no out of sync spreadsheets are doing databases hubspot grow better you on we had a little doc i said put down some bullet points i say you have to explain what they mean but yeah like give me some nuggets that we could go off of on you had to section a personal stuff and you go you have two that are really interesting to me you go i don't know how to spend money what does that mean yeah you know i'm living in the airbnb b's that are like five grand a avant i don't have a car i don't have a house i live out of a suitcase and like you know when expensive things are like nice i'm like i have afford like i still do the math of being like this seems to too expensive for the value i'm getting even though that like you know at this point a thousand dollars probably has no value you i mean i'm not like no value but like it it's not gonna materially change my life and i'm still so cautious when i'm spending twenty dollars i don't know what that i don't know how to get this out of my system so do you know how to get it out of your system i don't know how to get it out of my system i have no problem spending money spend so too much money but like i've seen this and i think you know the one of the main things is i see my dad and my my dad has done really well right like for like he's got the same immigrant story that like everybody has which is you've come to the country he i think ninety one dollars that was starting point right so that's the before and then like you know he's made good money in his lifetime nothing like you know crazy to write home about but like especially from a ninety one dollar starting point like they they my parents have enough money to do whatever they want they really don't need a penny pinch but like you know if we go to starbucks and it's like you know would you like the he's like kind of the small they're like okay it's called tall he's like but what's a smaller than tall because i feel like the tall is gonna be over overpriced he's like you know this is three dollars like but i could make this it's mostly water like i he'll be talking to the people about it right i'm just like oh my god like not at least this is embarrassing but like it's embarrassing in the moment because he'll just be like let me clarify you're saying the thing that's mostly water is three dollars and eighty cents like hold on hold on let's stop a lot what's what's going on here or like you know you know he'll pack seven people into a hotel room because like you know we can make it work as like yeah do we have to like we're on vacation here why just have to be a struggle and like and so you know the i just saw he could never get it out of his system like those those the scarcity mindset was just so like ingrained in him because and that's like i alright i get it like he had no safety net at had ninety one dollars like every dollar counted and like it wasn't about spending it was about like saving to get to build a safety net because you're in this new you're in a foreign country your parents can't help you nobody could help you like and so i get that but i saw that like oh wow you know actually the money come it wasn't logical like once the money was there that didn't change the mindset didn't change so it's like had have to separate out there's a mindset around money and then there's like the logical like situation about the money and like there's actually like they're unrelated you would think once the logical situation changed the mindset will change and it's like no it doesn't so it's like an active thing and so then i just started to like one of the reasons i asked you who you admire and you're like i'd admire this guy who's got like a bloody head going into the board meeting because he wants to do business that bad i would view that as a failure and you view that as a success and like because i have this belief which is you become what you admire right like fundamentally yeah if you admire something you're gonna strive to it so it it makes a lot of sense to really pick and choose what you admire like i'll give you an example a lot of people admire elon musk and i think elon musk is obviously super incredible in a couple of ways like he's the greatest inventor and businessman of our time and like you know the greatest since steve jobs i would say but like you know i think he's like an edison of our time great sure but he's also had i think like you know i don't know four failed marriages and like that's not something i want for myself so like i gotta be careful to admire the like up the all encompassing person because i don't want the all the full result of that like the you know and so you gotta gotta like so i got i got really specific about what i admired and once i admired certain things and i started to live life like those people was like well this guy is really really happy and like wow he's like pretty generous and he's not generous based off of having this like huge amount of wealth he's generous because like he doesn't feel super scarce about money he doesn't feel this lack of money and so he's like willing to give and like he's willing to give freely and he doesn't think twice about it and he doesn't pat himself on the bank about it either like oh wow i really admire that about him like i wanna be more like that and so to me the only thing that got me to change my mindset was knowing that it's not gonna change based on how much money he's in the bank and b like i have to change who i admire if i'm gonna like change who i become right because like i will naturally start to follow those blueprints and observe people doing those things and be like oh downloaded that like i will i will make that hap i will make that happen like i'll give you a little small win for me on this front like i was just on vacation i in hawaii last week and like my parent my dad is like i said like a horrible tip and like so my whole life i basically saw my mom being like tip them and my dad being like you don't have to and like you don't have to or like i did and i'm like he handed him i'm like a one like one one was his tip and like the absolute minimum and i just saw the look in the valet guy's face or whatever like it it wasn't even valet like he wouldn't do valet it's like the face of the guy who you your mandatory you he's hey standing there you gotta give him something the bell hop right and it's like so this time we get to the place the bell hop takes up our bags you know to the hotel room or whatever and i felt all those same urges of like my upbringing which is like we can just take the bags herself it's like yeah but like that's this guy's job and like it's not about being lazy it's like that's how this economy works that's how this ecosystem works if i don't like gotta feed the whole food chain otherwise somebody's not gonna eat right so it's like yeah okay i'm let them do that then we got to the room i'm like we have no cash i don't carry any of dollar bills like i only have cards and so i've been in this situation like five times four i'm not i'm not proud of it but like i would just be like dude sorry i don't i i don't have anything i don't have any cash i just got here i didn't bring cash or i would like you know let the guy leave it at the door and then i'd be like you know not there i tip the guy and at this time i was like i was like hey man like i'm so sorry i don't have any cash on me what's your name and like i made sure i went got them later and it was like again whatever ten bucks but those ten bucks meant a lot to to me and like yeah okay that's a step in the direction of the guy who's not like has this lack mindset or scarce mindset about money and is looking to like hold on tightly to everything or like avoid paying things it's like no no like you know make it happen i actually had like a a pretty comic goal series of events were on the even on this trip where i like my kid is two and a half but it but i don't know if know kids fly free under two yeah and so i bought first class tickets because i'm trying to be a baller shot collar but then i do the i i lie about her age to make sure she's under two and like i i knew in the moment i was like this feels wrong but it was also like the logic was like well it's like a couple thousand bucks to buy this two year old kid a seat like i'm like really gonna do that and then everybody told me they don't check i'm like i'm gonna get away with it and i got penalized so bad for this cheap that like it was just karma teaching me this wonderful lesson because we get to the plane and they're like oh you guys can't sit like sorry you can't board the plane i'm like what do mean i not only can i board the plan i'm first cusp but i get to board first and they were like no actually you have like two lap infants to get two little babies there's only like x number of masks in the top thing so like there's three masks and this four of you we can't let you board this playing we're gonna have to ask to see if somebody wants to switch seats with you for you to get on this plane and i was like what and i was like nobody's gonna wanna switch seats with the people with the baby like have us sit next to them like yeah he's not gonna so sure enough they go on nobody wants to switch i'm like alright we'll we'll take like we'll buy another seat like it's too late sir they're sit fights oh my alright we'll we'll go to coach we'll we'll we'll move back like coach is full i was like alright what's the next flight like it's tomorrow i'm like oh fuck i knew this little cheap move on my part of lying about four months of my kids age would come back to bite me and did and so then like we my wife and it we had this horrible flight over where like what my wife was on the last row of the plane with a baby in the middle row between two people and like because some guy was like i'll give up my middle seat in the back like to and now i'm sitting next to this dude and so instead of having mean this awesome family experience where having this terrible one because i cheap out and so i just started to pay attention to all the ways that saving money was costing me money and costing me like joy rather than like how much is saving me and like what i what i keep and so then who do you admire then is it is that somebody who's made that mind like who is that yeah like my trainer so like i talk about him a it's probably like i roll at this point but like the happiest person i know and not happy in like a cheesy way like but in a damn i've never seen this dude not in a good mood and like i've seen him stuck in traffic for three hours i've been late super fucking late and inc inconsistent and like you know like but he greet me like he's he's just been having a party he's like dude what i've been because his life is a traveling party and so i saw that and i was like man on every conventional metric that like i was raised like you you came from a bra it's was like he's i think he's like forty one forty two years old he's not married that's a that's a like household disaster if you're like a brown person like you know we're having interventions you know if that happens you know he does well for himself as a personal trainer but he's not like the most successful guy i know like i i'm surrounded by people with more quote him quote success than him in terms of financial success you know so like you know just in terms of like the kind of conventional metrics of the things i thought were most important you know his score board it wasn't like wow this guy i admire him because he's successful like he's successful with the game of life because this dude's never in a bad mood and like because of that everybody wants to be around i he's the most loved guy know because of he has he's like magical experience it's like you go to a coffee shop with this guy and like you're gonna have like something if you just hang up with him for three hours like something awesome is gonna happen because his mood he's gonna make a joke and then that person's gonna say this thing and then they're gonna take us to the background and hook us up because they just got liked our vibe and like tell the story like he goes to the dmv and like he you know he goes to the dmv and dmv is like the classic like worst place on earth the beer and like he went in being like nah dude he looked up the dmv on yelp it had two stars and he's like i'm gonna have a five star experience because i'm a be a five star dmv participant you know and just watch what happened so he like walked in with a little step in his step he's smiling and he makes a joke to somebody and he realized and somebody's like oh you just help you out over here and everybody else is gru in line like why is this guy getting to go up front she's like don't mind them and then she flirt with him and like she she hooks and he's supposed to take the test and she's like you know what like it's fine you've been driving for a long time and she just gives him the thing and he's like walks out he's like damn if i could do it at the dmv i can do it anyway right like that's all he's like he's like i wasn't always this he's like dude i was depressed for a while my dad died and i used to be better about him for x y z and he's like he's like you i used to be the guy like i didn't wanna come out from the covers because i just wasn't looking forward to my day you know you do if you looked at me you just see like a blanket in two eyeballs because i just didn't wanna get out of bed and he's not saying this as a motivational talk because he doesn't he's not a motivational speaker it's just like he's my personal trainer i just happened to hear these stories so when i heard this i was like like okay this dude is winning the reason i want this money this fan all these things because i wanna feel good this dude just feels good on auto like it feel good no matter what situation you put them in so that's like an in inc right like he is unconditionally feeling good so that's the guy i started to admire and then i started to pattern myself after things that he any anytime noticed he did something different than me or my friends or the people around me i like took special note of that and like would lean into trying that out as a new experience to see you know is that part of what makes him him that's really interesting and a great story and you know for a long i feel like everyone i've my i've just been it's almost like sex where i'm just automatically attracted to that person and it's not even conscious like i just get direction when like you know i hear about tom brady because i'm like wow that guy is awesome and really get at what he does and he's his ultimate competitor and wants to win and i never realized i never even thought that you could choose who you admire i just assumed it was like you know your sexuality where you like are you attracted to this person it's like comes from here and not here yeah actually maybe that is true i think there's some truth to what you said but like in the same way that like we don't all go try to marry porn stars like there's a certain point where you're like yeah what really matters to what do i actually want and it's like yeah well there's this initial thing this physical attracts which is important but then like actually i now know it feels really good if somebody who's carrying and thoughtful and like whatever like i could trust yeah and the the things that are like slightly below the surface that like what you're like oh i actually now that i know about it and now that i felt it i'm like those are super important i just you know it's just less primal than like the physical attraction i guess yeah yeah that's a great point i'm not done a good job of in my room people that i know really well i've only know like you know i admire people bet i just hear about their competitiveness and their instinct to win and i'm gonna think about that and try to do better job of that your brother's like this your brother's another person i chose to like admire because i was like he's also your brother's also like in a good mood pretty much all the time i i've i've never seen like i've never seen him either like in low energy like i've never seen him just kind of like on autopilot the switches off and i've also like even when he's like like i've never seen him defeated either so so you know those are so so you know what i've seen him i'm like he walks into like when your brother walks in into the room like he's he unconsciously goes alright and it's like what's good yeah he's expecting like the parade to start and i'm like bro this is just a bakery but he's like alright what are you doing what are you eating oh is that good alright and like it's not that he's he's not like mister smooth socially but his like will to have a good time or like to have the experience like in its fullest actually like impose its will on everybody else i really has to participate at that point because they're was like yeah it's croissant you wanna try it oh you know what you should actually do this and it's like he forces the good time out of the the average because he just literally walks in and he's like alright what are we doing or he'll be like let's win and i'm like listen what we're not even like playing any like okay i have to like rise to your level or i have to stop being friends with you because that's just the way you're approaching things and like either that's just i'm out or i gotta figure out how to be in and being in kinda means like being on and not just being like h home about but life you know yeah yeah i'm chosen to stop being friends with him as a result of that no in in reality i actually environment him as well and i know we're you know we were at we were in texas for like mother's day my father's birthday two weeks ago and someone had gone a cost i think my sister had gone to costco and bought like you know some cases of water like watermelon and i got home and she's like hey mo can he get the stuff out of the car it's like heavy and like you know i i i don't wanna do it and i like what you has selma he's been at home all day and she's like he never does anything like he will not look the fingers for this guy of stuff but was like this is why this guy's always in a good who no one absent anything that like you know is not enjoyable because they know he's already said no to it so often that it's not in like you know it's not something that's asked or expected of any longer that's why he's always good mood but it is a lot of fun to hang out with him like i again and you know i hung out with him i often up to see both sides of that when it's like excited and like the energy comes you know it certainly lifts me up and times where he's like more analytical and he's like let's look into this and does this make sense for more like you know i remember one time when tiny is struggling we i was in san francisco and he's like we have a new strategy the whole business where instead of creating our own iphone game we're gonna license the intellectual property of others what do you think of this this is like at the company move and you know i had have no idea i was of wearer and twenty two and didn't know anything but i was like i can i could get the real sense of like it's not just pure optimism there is a sense of reality there and that also like help me understand him a lot more too yeah he said something about you that i thought was a baller line that i've i've reused many times which was i i don't even know if this is the real thing but this is now the the the legend of it which was when you went to the deodorant business somebody was like hey always like do you even know anything about the deodorant business or like about deodorant and you were like no i know nothing about deodorant but in six months i'm gonna know everything there is to know about deodorant and like that's all that's enough for me to go like i can start this i don't need to like think of myself as some extra i've used that so many times is that a problem yeah that's true yeah that was definitely true i remember who it was two actually because a husband of one of my close friends who's was like you don't know anything i was i use it and i'll be an expert in six months to it with give be six months and like what this really that's an amazing attitude to have about anything it's like yeah of course i i don't know anything and like give me six months i can be pretty like i can be pretty much an expert at anything if you give you six months of obsession and true with everyone so i go ahead your brother had some that were like this because i started writing down these traits i was like there's a what i call is like you know sometimes you have a speaker system you turn it up to level ten and you're like us pretty loud bumping and then you're like get in someone's car and it's almost like they got they theirs goes to fourteen like god i can't hear anything i'm deaf out of attitude i got in my right ear because like why is your shit so loud but you're like okay at least i know what loud is now i have experienced loud even if i don't ever want my speaker to be this intense like i now know the level of intensity that exists because i just thought ten was the max before and like that's what your brother did like we invested in a company together and they were kind of fucking up and i was like dude can you i'm been trying to help these guys can you help me help them like he's yeah great let's like alright let's win and he gets on the call he does this clap and he's like and they're you know they're kinda defeated and he's like okay so well let's raise all this money you're trying to raise money let's raise the money like let's look at the deck and they like put out the deck and it was like awful and he's like okay so this is bad but let's fix it like okay so he he he rattled off he's like slide three and he was like super detailed right it's not just like general raw eyes like sorry three that chart it makes me think this you need to flip the numbers to be like visualize it this way like this example here on google images and he did that for like this super detailed thing right away and was whoa and then he was like alright they're like wow thank you so much this feedback has been so helpful he's like great long do you think it'll take you to to do this like to make these changes and they're were like i don't know hope i'm gonna work on today like you know i know it's super important i'm gonna work on it he's like great it's too noon now let's talk at five and then he's like send me a standing calendar invite for five pm every day for the next seven days until this deck is amazing and he's like let's just keep doing this right like you said it was super helpful right so let's just keep doing this and i was like dude i wouldn't have had the balls to tell any company invested in like let's meet again in three hours and it wasn't like forced it like i even now when i'm saying it it's not coming out the same way where it was like great let's do this and like let's just shorten the time span right like let's just cut all the fluff okay so you'll make these changes in like a couple hours let's meet again and i was like i've never done two meetings with the same person in one day so then i knew i was like oh shit i just found out my knob wasn't even at ten it was at seven and like this is what twelve feels like and he we did it every day for five days straight until the deck was amazing we would meet twice a day with these people by the end of it they hated us but like the deck was so much like the whole pitch was like the whole business was different basically by the end because like usually when a pitch is bad it's like actually the business is kinda of bad and and so once i saw that i was like whoa the ollie brothers they functioned at like a different like they have a different level twelve that like i like to see and i'm sharing this on the pod because there's people out there who the all the people around them they've never seen like what twelve looks like and i think you guys do this and that's like my favorite thing about you guys that's awesome i'm glad that that worked out yeah he like he has us insane ability to get them most out of people and like without them feeling like it's an ex like without that it without him forcing it upon you like you would do this when i was running native but he'd be like how can you make this deal better than dove and secret and i'm like this guy's an eight billion dollar r and d budget i've got eighty bucks i can't do this and he's like here are five things that you can do that like you know and he'll just even though the like three of those things will be outrageous you he'll be like go to find a new ingredient that'll i'll work and i'm like am i supposed to you know dig and find a new element in the periodic other table the elements but like two of those things will open up my mind in a way to be like you know what i'm not try i'm not focusing on the right problem here and i gotta stop thinking about retention and customer service and all this other stuff that matters but will matter later on more right now this is my problem and forget everything else and it's really humbling to be around that like whenever i'm around them i'm always more jazz about business and my business i'm like you know i think we've seen enough where we understand what the problems are right away like i'm in some of these board meetings and i'm like why are we talking about like you know i was in a board meeting a couple weeks ago all we did was talk about fundraising i'm like this is a waste of my time and your time either you're gonna get this checked you're not gonna get this checked from this one guy stop begging him like move on why don't we jump about the business and see hey what's working and what's not make a better business and the dollars will follow stop wasting time here and and that's what like it's so much of this is experience and i had no idea that it would be experienced and i think about this all the time i remember when i was at when i was at a p and g my boss who ran deodorant quit and i was like oh he's quitting i hope he does better and i didn't realize all of the things that would happen to me that you know now we're super clear like he had made all these promises about keeping native independent and amazing and it you know not not like forcing his will upon the company and he'd protected me from p and g the next guy never made any of those promises and so he didn't really feel like he had to do any of those things and i completely respect that but i didn't even understand what was gonna happen when the guy told me he was quitting and now i'm like okay when you know head count changes this is what's gonna happen and new sheriff is gonna come in into town he's gonna bring in his own minions to work in the places that he likes and either fall into line or fall out like you know leave the group and i didn't understand that so much of this his experience and once you go through those go through these things it's super helpful and you know he's had he's had so much more experience than i have and he's been he's a little bit older than me and so he's had it earlier than i have and he's been his great sounding board for this kind of stuff you you tweeted something out that was great you were like here's my my project status like here's like my my my cell sheet i used for all my real estate deals and it was just like status of it it's like you know i i don't even remember what it was exactly but it was like sent reply received waiting for paperwork follow up needed and then there was one that was just like i'm unsure i don't know what the hell is going like i don't know what's that's yeah i don't know what's going on i don't know where it's at like i don't know why it's not moving and i was like that's the status that i've needed in every project i've ever done because my my i always have you know a tracker for anything i'm doing i'm alright it's either like i sent it i'm waiting for a reply i got the reply now i need to like reply to them i to analyze it i need to sign i need to wire the money i need to do whatever but like so often after like twenty four hours every whatever status it was in it's now slipping towards the black hole of i don't know what's holding it's back from just finishing now yeah and i think that's what you guys do really well which is actually any initiative in any project it's like alright we're trying to you know like get more profitable it's like well we have this big plan and we're doing it and then like surely just like me surely like a month end and it's like whatever the whole profitability thing are we doing it or we not like and it's like yeah everything has slipped into i'm unsure what the fuck going on and i need this like piercing clarity back and so hey i think that was amazing little tidbit in there of like i need that i need that status because most things are actually in that that bucket yeah and i need to get them the hell out of that bucket but i didn't name it that to like acknowledge what the heck was going on yeah the second is another example of the relentless thing level twelve level fourteen on the volume scale like i showed your brother this deal that i was in i wanted to invest in and he was like this is like looks great let's like let's do it and i was like okay cool and he's like then every day he would text me like what's going on with that deal and i was like oh yeah like no change in like i emailed the guy he said he's just he said he's finalizing stuff he'll get back to me by friday it's like tuesday so wednesday is like yeah what's up the deal and i'm like i think it's still the friday i haven't emailed him again you think i should he's like yeah let's email him again and tell him we love this and we wanna be involved i like oh is that like a bing people do like that's just let's kinda fluff him up base like yeah let's just keep it hot and i was like okay cool and then wednesday thursday he's like i just feel like we need to do something he's like eventually got to the point where he's like what's the guy's bank let's just wire him them a million dollars and i was like we haven't signed anything it's like well once we wire them the money he's not gonna wire wire it back so like we're gonna secure our allocation in this deal just like let's just send him a million dollars yeah then he'll kinda be forced to like finalize things with us rather than keep us in this like limbo stage and maybe in the end he'll say hey i can't do the full amount you can only do a quarter of the amount because i got all this other investor interest because we know that's what's going on here and again i was like whoa didn't know that's an option of like you just wire out of the i guess that kind of makes sense and like these are very very valuable little tidbits of like yeah to add like another example somebody gave us they were like it was like what's your open rate on your push notifications for your app i was like it's like thirty i think this it's pretty good i was twenty percent like think that's really good industry average like eight we're at twenty i was pat myself on the bag i was feeling happy and he's like do think the theoretical max is i was like what he's like what do you think like theoretically okay he's like it's not literally a hundred you're not gonna get a hundred because of people because some people have uninstall app and they have notifications off like what do you think is like and i was like i don't know what you mean he's like i think i get fifty percent of people to open it push notification let me just like see so he sent a push for his app and his app was like it was like a social app like your post photos and he just sent a post notification that said your uber is arriving outside like please like open this to to meet it at the door like whatever he like said the thing that was like your uber is arriving with your package swipe to like open it up he saw like fifty five percent of people open that thing he's like okay that's like the j i have to know what's in this push he's like that's now the max is it kinda thing you wanna use now we know so actually our twenty percent is not on a hundred it's on like fifty five percent is and so everything we do is from here i remember thinking wow some people in silicon valley are like man acts like they will push the boundaries in ways that i just really haven't thought of and every time i saw someone break like an invisible wall that i had just had up i'm like oh fuck the game is so much more interesting than i realized and like these people play without these walls oh this is awesome like what else can i do it's so rushing to see that kind of stuff when you're like i don't know why i thought this wall existed and now that it doesn't it make so much sense that it doesn't exist like just break the some it required some genius to break through it and now that he's done it it seems so obvious whatever selma i look at like deals roll it like one of if our investments are like you know raising a new round we're always like we wanna either buy the business we wanna buy a whole business run the business or sell my shares all of my shares i want an action so i can't like these are the three options i'll buy the whole thing i'll run the business you quit or get take all my shares to get out of here but i don't want nothing i can't do nothing here and it's a lot of fun to like it's a lot of fun to be involved and have that action but you know it makes sense so that you admire a certain group of people certainly yeah exactly for better way and by the way this is good example admire that uber push notification some people like how unethical and weird and like you know why would you do that and like you know if i told that and i have done this many times like i've told my designer hey let's try this and he looks at me like i'm bernie made off saying let's take all their money and run away like you know they think i'm evil when i'm actually just running an experiment to me this is like an awesome experiment and it's because i admire people who did some of these different growth hack things that were like just unusual thought experiments and i'm like oh you the way you think is how i wanna think but not everybody not every everybody wants that or even thinks it's good like they think it's bad which is like but knowing that is also where you figure out your lane you're like oh that's my lane these things i think are easy and fun and good other people think are hard boring or like or like evil and i'm like oh okay cool i i now know what differentiates me for anybody else there was this one great story what has was a native meat but we had these end caps for target like basically like shelving that was gonna sit at the end of a an aisle and they come and film with all the deodorant like you know we ship them and all they have to do is take the box off and it's filled and so we sent them to target and nobody could find them like you know there were a bunch of targets that were like we don't have this and so we're like okay what should we do and so some p g person was like okay what we have to do is we need to call up the p g target team in minneapolis they're gonna call up target target's gonna call their distribution facility and then then we're gonna go all the way back around and we'll find out where they are because we've already shipped them and so someone on our team was like this doesn't make any sense this is fifteen phone calls this is what you guys would ordinarily do and they're like this is the only way to do it so we googled target distribution facility in like new england found their phone number randomly cold called them and we're like hey we work in native i think you've got bunch of these end caps a bunch of stores don't have it we ship to you do you know where they are and they're like look give us twenty minutes to look in the facility they call this back and they're like yeah we got them we're gonna ship them out in the next truck and that's how we solve the problem and like you know to to the p and g it had never occurred to directly call the facility and to google for that number they're like we have to make fifteen phone calls and play secretary on the way back and like you know their their mind was blown and for us we're like this is the most obvious thing to to call the person where the problem lines and it's it's it's crazy to see where those walls are and it's so amazing to breakthrough through that and be like this is the way things should be done moving forward can i give you one of those as well when i was when we jeff leads like twitch twitch is an amazon owned companies you had like the twitch bureaucracy plus the amazon bureaucracy like there's layers you know and and yeah it wasn't all bad but there was certain things you'd run into it's like this pocket it's like oh no i'm stuck in molasses what is that where did i step that like got me stuck and one of them was for a period of time i believe there was something with the performance marketing where it's like so how much are we spending on like you know getting like installs and they're like you know this amount like cool like what's the cost like well we don't really have the tracking like we don't tracking that's like you know the basic they're like well we don't wanna install the facebook pixel because amazon doesn't really necessarily want like we to get approval before facebook because when facebook pixels in your they have your data they're kind of a competitor to twitch to amazon so like you know there's some sensitivity you have to get that done like so we just spent we don't know any we don't know the we don't have the pixel installed like you i don't even know you can run an ad without the pixel and yeah and i was like how long it it's been on legal desk for like a year and i was like oh my god and so i was like oh wow so was like we and so my job was at that time i was like oh dude we're getting our ask cake in brazil and like nobody in the company even paying attention like we need to we need to like win in brazil and like what happened we used to be number one and we're slipping because like mobile gaming took off and we don't do mobile gaming so i was like we need to win and and so we built a scraper first to like see how fast the competitors were growing because nobody in the company would do anything unless you had a case for how like how big the market was i was like well look at the competitors i like yeah but like we don't know i'm like alright we'll we'll build the scraper which is like startups do this all time but in a big company that wasn't like super super kosher to do that i was whatever we'll do it till they tell us to stop and the second thing was i was like oh we don't have this pixel so we can't like run these ads so i was talking i just went on a phone call with this guy who was the number one streamer in brazil that we had just like paid a bunch of money to like come on onto to our platform and i was like how would you get a bunch of people to download our app if i can't do facebook i can't do marketing like paid ads and he was like he's like oh easy boss and he's saying this the translator like he's saying it's easy boss you know here's what you need to do he's like give me ten iphones i was like what he's like buy me ten iphones i was like what for i you know like i don't know how to do that he's like i'm gonna give away iphones iphones like gold bars in brazil i just say i'm giving away iphones on my twitch everybody download twitch and you know sure enough i get i just like foot kinda like boot leg away to get the guy gift cards so he could buy iphones and he buys ten iphones he does a stream where he's like i'm giving my he's like i'm not giving away the first one until we have a like we have ten thousand people watching my stream go share this texture cousin and texture mom tell them to get on this i'm not giving it away until then and then and he drum he had he brought he like hell he was the number one streamer on twitch that day he brought in himself like hundreds of thousands of downloads like the biggest downloads spike that we had had just by giving away like you know we ended up giving away like five iphones as like so for five grand basically we did like more installs in a proven way because they're all coming directly off his link to his channel and i was like and people and that's when i knew like twitch might not be the place because like i told the story and i'm like i feel like i slay the dragon and i'm dragging his arc into the boardroom like the in the ninth floor or the top they the the mega boardroom world to see the execs it i feel like i'm dragging this car in being like you know are you not entertained you know and people were like oh like you know that's interesting and they just sort of moved on and i was like wait we just discovered this like incredible growth hack to get a bunch of downloads if we did this thing out of the ordinary like you know can we get a little love here and when i got no love i was like okay this is not the place for me because if this was my company and somebody did this i'd be like i don't know if this was good strategy long term or a bad one it's really irrelevant the fact that you did this we need to tell every team in the company that like something like this is possible in your department like don't get stuck in the molasses like find something and try something that works and like these guys have tried nine things that failed tell them tell them about all nine and then tell them the one that worked and like i would have gone on a roadshow for that and that's how i knew like okay what type of company do i need to be at is one that like sure celebrates that type of thing that's a pretty amazing story and like really amazing that this guy who's in brazil is like i know how to get downloads from this street like giving away iphones and get people to download it that's brilliant of him and brilliant that you found it then like harness and real like fuck all this red tape i'm gonna figure it out that's awesome what colonel story finally i'm get i love getting the love i needed yeah i've been waiting two years to to just get the daddy i'm proud of you son proud of you moment but i i got it now alright man sorry i took you so far over the time of for coming on yeah appreciate that and thanks so much for having like a champ yeah where should people find you twitter it's probably the best spot right yeah twitter i'm at mo ali at mo ali alright perfect thanks man perfect thanks tony talk you soon