Samir Chaudry: Why 99% Of Content Creators Fail At YouTube

tell me about mister beast he like is is so unique in the fact that he is laser focused in a way that i've never really experienced and and maybe at times like in a in a way that i don't want experience yeah yeah just somebody doesn't wanna to know i feel like i could rude world i know i could be what i want to from at all in it like a days on on you're about to hear a conversation i recorded with same severe when i went down to la i've been following these guys for a little while they are me deep in the youtube game and if you're a content nerd like me somebody who really thinks about okay what is great content how do i use content to build my business which is what i've done then these guys are very interesting because they know everything about youtube and all the youtubers they've done interviews with mister beast and dream and all a bunch of the large youtube channels we talked about a bunch of things what makes a great interview how do you do what are the questions you asked how do you prep and how do you show up the right way if you're gonna do an interview we talked about quality of audience versus quantity audience how do you think about not just the numbers but like the real trick which is getting the right type of people to actually watch your stuff hanging out with mister beast so they've spent days and days with mister beast i wanted to ask them what did they learn about this guy he is the most popular youtuber in the world he's one of the most popular entertainer in the world period it's rare you get that kind access to that type of person and i wanted to hear some stories and he told me some good ones then we did five great creator businesses that you've never heard of and some predictions what youtubers does he think have the potential to build billion dollar empires under their content he gave me three that he he believed could be the case and there's a bunch of other frameworks so things that you only really have these insights if you've been doing something for like ten years you've been thinking about the same thing from every angle for ten years those are some of my favorite people to talk to alright so enjoy this conversation with sami smear colin and i you know spent a lot of our career making documentaries and what we noticed was like if we were interviewing a subject and we were just interviewing them head on we wouldn't get good answers and we started taking them like driving or have them do something else and then you would get the truth it was really interesting it's like the truth comes out in the car i think it's something that some documentary say where it's like if someone's doing something else they're much more open if their mind isn't a hundred percent on right the interview why is that you think they're just performing basically when they sit down in a like a beneficial environment probably yeah there's a lot of like self perception stuff that's going on right it's like how i coming across who am i is the sounding right and if you're distracted than you but you guys do your interviews that at a table basically yeah so you don't do that well we've been trying to explore like the concept of creating the right energy for the conversations right yeah like you think about like this has a completely different energy than if there was a table has a completely dinner different energy than if we didn't have mics and we were laughed or had booms so we've been trying to explore like where our shows moving and what type of space we want that's i essentially exactly where i wanted to start which is basically you guys do so we came down here and we're were like oh let's get like a place let's have some in person interviews with people that we think are awesome and it's different than the like at home think for sure right the vibe is different you you get a different energy but also you can do like high stakes interviews almost it's like the whole day kinda gets built around the interview which is not really the case we do it online and you guys have been doing some high stakes interviews so you're doing stuff with i mean just recently i saw the tim ferris one that was great and i i'm guessing you're like me that you grew up kind of like really into tim ferris stuff and you can know kind of admire him yeah it was pretty surreal it's a that's a high stakes interview you did mister beast you did dream we did a bunch of these things first do you prefer like being the interview e or in this case you're kinda like more the guest on the on the show you prefer a guest or host i like to talk so like i like when we are the host and it is a conversation i think that's the most fun for me like i do i am a naturally curious person and you know along with higher stakes it's also like very very interesting people that i'm inherently curious about right so that to me is really fun i think where it's you know where it gets challenging is if you don't have chemistry but we actually now do pre calls and kind of not only chemistry reads but we try and gauge yeah what our chemistry is with the with the guest because we've been in situations where the chemistry is not good and then you're like okay how do i like what do where do we go from here how do this work and and when you're the producer of the show or it's your show in the middle of it you're like okay is this gonna perform noise in your head starts kinda edit this how does and that then puts you into a whole like i can disadvantage role yeah you're so let's say you were doing one of these kinda like interviews your pump for a like i'll call it high stakes interview yeah how do you kind of walk me through how you're preparing for that and how you're like just kind of like getting ready to perform that yeah yeah actually we've been really trying to establish our relationship with prep because we found that sometimes we're overly prep i'm barely listening to the other person i just know where i'm there talking point i know where i'm going and also how much of them i listen to prior because if i know their stories i know their beats i'm kind of like right you know bitch curiosity wan yeah the curiosity wan so been trying to explore that relationship we do have a like we have a team that essentially develops a research doc with someone on our team who does that it was like here's here's kinda like some origin story and we we structure it like a act one act two act three structure where where is their origin story what's the inflection point right where has that put them today right because it's like what was the tense part of the journey what what didn't work for them do we know any of that is there something we can ask about that creates an inflection point because we are trying to tell a story with it yeah so we need to know the general themes of what's happening in the origin right the act one what's happening in the conflict the act two and then the resolution in the future right so that's like the most all the details without knowing all the details yeah so yeah we're trying to establish a a new relationship with that of how much is it like curiosity and how much is it prep and i think that's become more substantial for us as the landscape of interview shows is getting more and more saturated right like when when we interviewed you know certain creators three years ago no one else was interviewing creators so it was kind of like okay this is a talk show for our own community right doesn't exist anywhere else now we're a part of a group and that then pushes you to try and become more singular and more differentiated and chemistry how you show up who the hosts are matters right i think you guys have done actually a really good job of that i think about your show a lot because i think tell me what we what are we doing well well i think you have to be it's similar because there's two hosts right which is really hard which is really hard in interviews but probably you have a better reception when it's just you and sam yeah on a lot right it's like when you're building a show that's guest dependent or all about the guest bookings it's like some people look at this and be like i don't know that so i'm not gonna click on it some people give it a chance because they trust you but really if if it's you and sam you can carry the show and then you become less reliant on booking so i do think like colin and i've been thinking a lot about that how do we instill some of that how do we think about that but we are just like the show takes us to really interesting people like tim ferris and so right in this moment it's riding the way keep b it like this is cool the type of outreach we have is really cool the people we get to talk to is really cool so you said something like how how do i show up yeah i think about this a lot because now when it comes to like sports where used to an athlete having like a pre game routine a immediately a stretch thing warm up they're wearing the headphones they're listening to their song yeah they get the motivational speech they run they run out there they do the warm ups and then they play yeah and but for other types of people who need to perform it's like what are you doing like you need to sit down and talk right it seems so easy it it's definitely presence like you have to become very present right in the conversation and so there's there's a couple different things to to try and do that for me personally i've discovered this eleven minute wim hof breath were nice online that's i think it's brutal i do that a lot have you done it yeah yeah there's so many people who know this exact one it's like eleven minutes i think is free youtube like suffering each youtube one he's and his accent is amazing come on alright goes yeah it's so good and like that just gets me in the zone like i i love to pick up on do that right now the yeah do you do it laying down yeah or laying down that's his way that's his one you're back we we made a documentary about wim years ago and so like i've just been which one i i seen it it's it's on yesterday's channel it's all called frozen alive colin and i actually edited okay yes yeah yes this is it is so good so good lie down sit down whatever it by the this is good as a like i do this like whenever we're we like a team retreat or like we need to do something i'll be like hey guys it like if you if you're down let's do something a little bit weird than yeah they're like what is he gonna say and this is not so weird they're down with it and you you definitely feel energized mh right at the end of it yeah i i try and get present like i try and take out a lot of the variables i think as we've built a team what's been great is like it used to be me and colin being like okay where the mics go where did the cameras go or the does lighting look good and that can be really stressful yeah i mean for example our most recent interview with mister beast when we went out to north carolina you know we were there for a a full day prepping for the pod but at the last minute realized we didn't have a table and colin and i went to a furniture store in north carolina two hours before we sat that with him and we're just scrambling to buy a table and then said what had it arrange for it to be delivered and basically it all happened within a matter of you know that was a very stressful two hours prior to sitting down and i felt very not present in the first half of that right you know i was i was just coming off like okay that that was intense why didn't i think of that kind of immediately already being retrospective of the process of you know and so all of that stuff i think you just have to eliminate i made a bunch of mistakes like that when the this podcast got started with me doing long formula interviews like the first twenty episodes were just me interviewing people out of studio and whatever and i i kind of like got reps there and then it switched at like i don't know episode something forty or something like that to me and sam as like a recurring thing which was like way different prep you know mh turnkey turnkey setup up already have good chemistry don't have to book cast don't have to research cast just like be ready to talk about interesting things and like just turn up the the the sort of charisma as much as you can but now that i got back into being like alright let's try to like we had this amazing network there's a fascinating to people to talk to let's just let's do it and i i told ben i called ben after the first i was like dude that i was like an hour too long because i did three hours i was like i i thought i was joe rogan for a minute there i i did three hours way too long and then i was like i over prepped like crazy and i the thing you you're saying where you're like yeah i'm listening but in my head i'm like okay i'm supposed i'm was supposed to beat to this next i was like that wasn't right it's so hard before this we went to dave buster in between interviews and you know play pop shot and i gotten a good good zone and alm it's either that or wim hof you right dave mustard are winning yeah if you don't have a local dave buster so you're unfortunate enough i thought you're gonna say if you don't have a local wim off y'all got wim you've had a bunch of these yes who's somebody that's been a lot of fun that you guys have had on recently that's like you know giving you those kinda like mind blown my brains leaking out my ear like who's done that for you recently yeah it's it's hard to not take tim tim ferris school but but tell me what was dope about the tim with tim it was the fact that he's been doing this for so long and and he really opened my eyes to this concept of having a very high quality audience and i look at tim and i think he has like an incredibly high quality audience and i think we make a lot of sacrifices because we distribute our stuff on youtube for viewership right right like it is it's very odd that we have public performance metrics next to our work there's very few other places where that happens right like in business it doesn't happen where you're like here's how well i'm doing and anyone can see that at any time if you go to a shopify store it doesn't just show you sales yeah how many sales as this has exactly the true raw like benchmark imagine walk into a grocery store and it just has like revenue under every product it's just it it's a very odd thing that pushes us to make decisions for sales larger viewership rather than higher quality viewership and i think sitting with tim it was a deep understanding of how he's built a very high quality premium audience and a premium brand over a decade and i think said something in that interview to you he was like there's always a market for like the best best yeah and he's like so i wanted whatever the ads were priced at i was gonna go like double that and doing that's how do i get that to be the thing because that will always be there there will always be a market for to whoever got the highest quality audience with the best ad read you know that's that'll always be there and i think that's played out yeah and i think what's important is to for us as creators just to realize like what we are doing is not novel it's been done before we're building audiences we're we're media companies you know this has been done before and we should look far back at who's done it really well yeah you know and i i think that sitting with tim was that opportunity and you know almost as a self fulfilling prophecy like the type of people who reached out to us after the tim episode really was emblem of it it is a high quality audience that watches tim and that's interested in him it was not our highest performing episode right yeah it's one of my favorite and it's one that drove a lot of high quality outreach right and it reminded me of that of of we can get really caught up and you know high viewership but i think that was something that that really pushed me in there's a lot of stuff there there's something that i never forget that he said which was if you do something that is even slightly energy d it will compound over time and to like really look at your day to day and recognize what is d depleted your energy because it'll compound over time when you say that it's like i feel like everybody can like the one thing right away yeah that you haven't been like really paying that much attention to but when did your brain is like of course it's this yeah and this is you know this is for hour work week from his book but he talked a lot about who are the right clients to have like what you you know money is not think we look at it as such like a lot of money so sacrifice these things for it but if it if the client relationship isn't good if it's d deplete your energy if it's causing a strain on your team it's not worth it and all those viewpoints are almost anti empathetic to our the the internet age of us being like all of this is infinite right you know we can always be making more money we should always be pursuing more of viewership more money more of everything he came in with the perspective of what's the right money what's the right right view so he said that energy d pleading thing what did you think of for you i i thought of like meetings yeah i i'm like a creative person i like to be creative and i've kind of just spun myself up to be like we run a media company so i need to operate like a media company owner and like i think about hosting meetings or being on zoom calls and i'm like i i really don't like it right at all so on the podcast one sounded did a really funny rant where he was like you know he's like long build he was like you know i've been you know we sold the hustle this many months ago it's been six months i've talk to this person this person i thought about all these things you know what i realized i'm a fucking artist man and he just like i was like what it's not what you think is coming to he when he says it he also doesn't like like he doesn't come across like an artist like some people that the way they dress what they do you're like that's an artist yeah and he's like i'm fucking artist man i just need to create and i'm gonna to keep doing that no matter what the situation is i yeah i should have i they said be an investor i tried i don't wanna do that i don't wanna do that shit you know i stopped doing it altogether i just wanna be an artist and i think about that a lot actually i think there's like a a great way to like kinda draw a line in the sand around like you know what this is what i am because it gives me bunch energy and like what is what is that not like you know and how do i just not have to do it maybe i don't have to it at all i think sometimes i i operate from an old model with a new business where you know i grew up my dad's an entrepreneur from an indian immigrant family like it was all about going to his office you know clocking in the morning clocking out like being there every day being present in front of your team and i think we're just in a new world where it's like is that do i need to operate like that as a creative as a creator i i found myself that another thing that tim said was it was a quote from whitney cummings but he said if art imitate life then you have to have a life and i think that the the mentality of like i really wanna succeed is hey i'm gonna go to my office i'm gonna grind every day i'm gonna work really hard but then as a creative person or as someone who's on a podcast it's like well now i have very little experiences to talk about or you know it's kind of like i can tell you about the coffee shop down the street from here where i get coffee every day and then i come and sit here all day right i'm so routine i just to this why does anyone wanna listen to if i don't have interesting life experiences there's a thing i realized which was my so my grandfather like what is your grand father do or one of your grandfather like did they like have like a factory job or like any like yeah like my my grandfather that i knew the other one passed before i was born had a like train engineering job in india yep almost exactly the same grandfather some engineering like a chemical plant right of some he worked there and like to him work was you come to the factory where the the ingredients are coming command and they're getting processed there's fumes everywhere and like that's what work is and there's like a shift supervisor yeah and then if he saw what my dad did which was like go to work with a brief briefcase there's a computer on your desk you sit in a like kind of cubicle or desk like sorry office and you know you take phone calls or you get on a flight and go to a business meeting where you're gonna shake a hand and maybe do a paper contract deal like that was kind of my dad's job that's like what work became right this just kind of unrecognizable and looks much less serious than the chemical plant or the in the fertilizer factory or whatever yeah and then like to to my dad what i do he's like are you ever gonna work like what are you doing you're saving in front of your phone you know you're talking to who who anything this you get paid for this like well if i get a bunch of views then yes or like you know sometimes you know if it's like i'm i'm working it's like no you're just fucking around on youtube it's like right that's exactly what i do like yeah i'm looking for in the most interesting things in the world and i'm s emphasizing and i'm gonna talk about it but it's like our version of work is unrest i recognizable to like mh you know our parents and like like just had kids and i just have two two little kids i'm like whatever they're gonna do is probably gonna blow my mind it's gonna be so super unrecognized it's super unrecognizable but every generation does i'm like that's kinda interesting like i should kind of not write off those things that look like complete not work yeah and like our our company got about like twitch which is like if you watch people playing video games for a living it's like what this is not work that was a very confusing era i mean even now at you know in my mid thirties when i look at what a twenty year old creator is doing it's it's hard for me to track you know i i i spend a lot of time on youtube i spent a lot of time talking youtube creators but this next wave of creators is kind of like wait what's happening what's going on what's the name of the grows who's like going viral because she's like a npc yeah you all yeah was like that that's like yeah the thing i don't know is that what our kids are gonna do there they're bring own machine all of this is so like it brings so much about like who are we as people like right what is that that we're into have you seen the scene really strange fin basically she's she's just standing there and like people are donating using the tiktok live thing have you guys seen this yeah there it is game gang ask you so good thank jackie gang gang gang gang gang gang oh special gang gang gang gang gang gang hall gang gang gang gang oh that was good leon he has so she just whatever if they donate the cowboy she always says the same thing the same way like like she's a bond girl and she's just making like i don't know whatever is she making like seven thousand hours a day seven thousand dollars a gang gang gang gang there's all these funny memes too of like guys filming their girlfriend like bring this there know i think it says a lot about what we crave as audiences obviously there's like a lot there to unpack of what we're into but the interactivity like you think back to entertainment even when we were growing up it was like the tv told you what was on right a lean back experience right turn on tv if what you wanted wasn't on you just waited and you may not even know yeah you know you're super into these like niche cooking show right until the yeah till chopped comes out and you're like go exactly i didn't know i wanted to watch other people cook but i don't know if you remember the tv guide channel it was tv guy channel just waited told you what was on channel twelve and if you missed it you had to wait a whole another on the channels scrolled by so that was like a very lean back experience where we were like okay you tell us what's what to watch right and then as we progress there was like ti and it was more on demand was like shit we can record a show and like have it on demand or right see what's coming up and now you accelerate it all the way to youtube or instagram and it's like i can search for what i want i can curate my own entertainment now it's i can create my own entertainment right right i can pay money and she will do something yes that's like in that's in the next level right it's like interactive entertainment where i'm not consuming it i'm creating the entertainment i'm part of making part of it yeah yeah and i think that's what you know twitch i think is a great example of that too right like people people watching long live streams why it's because they can have an impact on it yeah i think people don't really even actually understand what's going on with twitch like now i think it's accepted that twitch is a thing which took a a while to be like i guys is that like a big deal it's i guess it's actually a pretty big deal but i think unless you use twitch i think people still sort of think the default is probably like twitch is people watching other people with video games live and so maybe they're really good at the game it's like yeah that's part of it but then some people are you know like a lot of people are just there for the chat a lot of people using this background noise in another tab like i remember we're looking at some data when we were there about how many people are literally just that's not the focused tab on chrome and some people were like well we should we should like discount that as like you talked to users like no that's like how i like to use twitch i'm not just yeah it's not like i an accident and it's just running in the background like i listen to it while i work and i'm coding and i'm listening to this and i'll check back in like every every time something interested happening i i hear the crowd roar basically i go look at the score and i guess see what's going on to me it's like the reinvent invention of the radio right to twitch has has right really operated like that but then again where you get to play a part in it ludwig was another creator that we we talked to him on show where he has developed this kind of aerial relationship with his chat yeah because it the way you said it was interesting you go kinda boring if ever if there's also just support it right yeah it's like you're right and i like i didn't really thought of it that way and he's not ever zero like they hate each other how would you describe it like what is what's an example of like what's going on on his channel it's it is so odd there's so many different things that go on i would say his sub are probably the thing to to bring it to focus which is essentially you know he'll go live for he he initially started as twenty four hours but every time you subscribe every new subscriber he extended it right so essentially they worked for me yeah it was an adversary right it was like i want this to end but when you take this action it extends right right extends an hour so he ended up doing it for thirty days straight street live for thirty days straight but again right now but was it was fun in last week but that's an example of like having an adversary relationship which where oh which is you know kind of like you can interact but you're bringing me discomfort right you know by by doing this yeah so it it it makes it fun for the audience to to play with and it's obviously like a joking relationship yeah but there's something that's you know fun about that and i think we should really think about these audiences the young audiences that are growing up with this what do they want next right because we are we are thinking about like the advancements of of entertainment in the context of what we had and how advanced this is that we can published on the internet right and that people can comment and we can have discord servers and we can engage with them but there's there's a whole another you know version of participation even think about tiktok like why do why did tiktok become such a big thing it's participation self it's like it was easy to participate for anybody to make yeah easy to and they told you what to do right here's the trend here's the dance here's the dance here's how you do it here's a hundred videos of people doing it right here's the sound you try click this you try it now right yeah so the the even you look at pinky doll right what we're just talking about for you to do that for you or eye to start doing that it's we just start a live account that's it we just start like there's the participation is so easy where we can either participate in the actual live stream or become that creator within a matter of minutes right what do you think next where do you see the puck going with that i think hard to predict it's it's hard to predict but i think anyone could it might be yeah but i think i think what we have to realize is that tiktok taught us a lot about the fact that the platform is the creator in that context right like if you take the top ten creators off of tiktok tiktok still tiktok mh right you still open it and you it's a for you page you wouldn't even notice it's almost reverting back to the lean back experience i open tick tiktok and i say you tell me what's going on right back to what were just talking about with tv it's just that as personalized to every single yeah so it's hyper personalized i think is number one right when we think about the trends that are that are coming which is already happening but i think also like participation forward so it's like it's personalized but it's really easy for me to engage in the action to and i think that's where maybe there's like two extremes there's the the mister beast where it's like i can't do i can't buy a train and have it go into a ditch which is something he did in this last video and then the opposite end of the spectrum is like here's what's happening on youtube shorts or or tiktok and actually really easy for me to do that and i can try it myself i'm in s i'm in san francisco if you walk around s if you you know you can't like you know you you you you stub your toe it's like what did i step ai like nothing is right the answer to everything is ai ai yeah and i kind of wonder if the answer to this is also ai meaning you see the ai can draw amazing art like a paint know can it can paint better than right you know a human can campaign companion it can paint anything you want instantly whatever it can write it can make you know chat can make rap lyrics and so i wonder you know do we just get to the point where actually the creator is the algorithm is the creator it just it's hyper personalized and here's just like it's gonna just deep fake and create something that it thinks you like and it's just gonna try ten thousand variations per second and then if anything starts to work it starts to like go more down that rabbit hole for for more creators from what it might not even be a creator it might just be self generating video that's i mean yeah that's algorithm is just making it just making the like okay people seem to like because they have i mean an unreal amount of data right they're like people like to hear people eat that's a sam been defect jet have you heard of ifrs you've heard of yeah i've heard of audio audio only not a video one but a audio only version that's a fake conversation and how how close was i mean it's like like okay if somebody listened to if i family member who doesn't listen to the pod listen to it they would just think this is the podcast yeah because it doesn't sound robotic right there's little moments but it's like kinda passable if you don't know what deep fakes are you'd be like i guess it just sounded like that if you lives to the pod you'd be like oh cool but you're not really like substantive saying anything like did you hear the one where they did joe rogan talking to steve jobs yeah and that one was pretty good think we kinda edited it well a cool demo i listened to joe rogan and sam alt is which is it's a youtube channel called the joe rogan ai experience and i genius idea yeah it's a it's a genius idea but i clicked on it to to find out like joe rogan and sam alt talking about open and how chat works right started listening to it to be like what does this sound like i wanna hear one minute and then i just was like wait this is just good and interesting right and then i just found myself listening to it and then i was like do eye care so if we can do that with the like v zero point one you just have to believe like okay inevitably that's where it goes would there's been a few of these that go viral while like the kinda ai fake ai things like there's one on twitch i don't know you seen the twitch one of biden and trump debating yes i think where we're gonna see this all really skyrocket is during the election for sure yeah right and it's gonna get really weird crazy and weird i brought it up about you because it happened to me and colin recently where it was a video of me colin and mister beast talking about an online casino that he had started and it was also our lips were also right faked and it it on youtube or no it's it's taken down we gotta take down we gotta down pretty fast but it was it's cool fuck that yeah it was really compelling and but i mean it it it was too compelling like people could click on it it's like to the to just the untrained eye it's like oh that could have been a moment from the podcast didn't watch i've had to had a conversations with my parents about like hey careful be careful if if someone calls you and it's it you think it's me let's develop like a a safe word right with all this like when you ask me what's next the thing that's been on my mind the most is physical experiences okay i actually think that we're gonna want things that are uniquely human in the coming years i think we're gonna want things that are like collective human experiences where right like stand up comedy i think we were gonna wanna sit and be like that human is standing there delivering that entertainment to me or plays in theater i think we're gonna want that and i think there's a lot of digital creators who are building really promising communities where people will show up but a lot of online creators who are building high viewership but no one would actually show up to something that they do and i think that's and what's the difference i think the difference is the amount of personality that you inject into your videos and if people are willing to connect with that right like long form podcasting is there's people who spend more time with you and sam than they do talking to their own mom right or their their own best friend so they they have this like really in para of social relationship you guys have done live events people come yeah right and i think there's other creators who rip all of that out because they're looking at the algorithm and they're like you know what when i inject my personality right ten percent of people stop watching but they're looking at it on a on a view of like five million people and they'd rather have five million views than four point five million views but when i look at it i'm like i think i'd rather have a hundred thousand views or or a hundred thousand dedicated fans who are who walk away knowing something about i one more unit of tasks who are who are down to listen to me right talk and and understand my personality then try and rip all that out to make sure they get to the end of the video and that is that is how like the business of youtube is is predicated on do they click and do they watch till the end but i think sometimes i can give you the wrong signals of what should i keep in what should i keep out right and again back to the conversation of high quality audience and i think the young creators it's like it it's like playing video games on youtube right if i try this then this number goes up right right and i think that is too easy to manipulate right now and there's there's so much information i think we're we're part of that of like sharing information on how that all works but you do have to take us step back and be like am i building a brand and a brand is about trust credibility depth of connection and that comes from some stuff that might not be optimized for the algorithm yeah there's it's sort of like drop shipping versus like building an actual brand around what you do right like you good comp there's i don't if you ever saw when sony got hacked do you remember that one the email hacked yeah there was one email that i remember came out that was like pretty interesting and i think it was one of the early sony guys talking to the ceo and he was or one of it wasn't maybe the the early soon guys maybe it was like one guy from like a like a music a record label talking to him and he was like you know here's what we're saying he's like basically the more popular this gets like you know people streaming music at home blah wall he's like it's also creating a pent up demand for what you call he's like he's i think out of home entertainment it's gonna be big mh and he's like out of home entertainment like he's like festivals will do well this was like a wow back there there was like this kinda of like pretty big music festival craze that kinda came out of it but there was also a couple of other their like trends like that like even things like tough mud and spartan race all of a sudden people were like you know what i just wanna like go and voluntarily crawl through mud this weekend right like why would somebody wanna do that it's like yeah kind of because you're sitting in front of a computer all day yeah like that too easy and you kind feel soft inside so would go voluntarily have this like hardship also you wanna be able to instagram it and put it online who that you did it yeah i think i i totally agree with that and i i mean obviously that that it that's what happened but i think ai is gonna create like this homogeneous nature to content right everything's is gonna feel the same and that is gonna make us crave something completely unique and different almost like looking for like ai has brought a lot of efficiencies into our studio we use ai for a lot like what do you guys use auto pod or are you familiar with that no what are that okay so there's there's three cameras right now right and so basically you would bring these three cameras in and you wanna get a clarity on like if i'm talking the cameras on me if you're talking the cameras on you it does those cuts it just does those cuts automatically it's a a three hour conversation it'll do it in ninety seconds oh that's amazing and it'll be very precise when you start talking it'll go there if you have a human here live switching which i don't know if if some of them she's not live right that's what we talked about it like right before we start so if he if he's live switching with the switcher he actually can't predict when you're about to start talking right he's gonna be a second late so now i do i trust the human more do i trust the ai more i mean reality is it's brought a ton of efficiency into our office that's cool we also explore youtube titles and play around with ai to be like hey here's the title we thought of but give us ten variations right and sometimes maybe it's it's ours that we like right but if we keep going down that path you know the other day we were in a chat gp or it's a different tool chat gp but there's there's other like creator specific ai tools there's some that aren't public that all it can only be used if your partnered with certain you know creator companies specifically there's a company called spotter yeah that has a really great ai tool that i was using this morning and the funny thing is like you're sitting in a room with your team and it's is it more efficient to sit alone with ai and get hundreds of variations or is it is it more efficient to sit together as a team for thirty minutes i don't know the answer to that but i think probably it's ai right so the question for me is like if this if it's driving so much efficiency i think i'm gonna crave inefficiency in other places and right it's like the slow food movement totally table like food gets too present then it creates the demand the craving for the other for the inefficiencies yeah what i've seen though is that even though that gets created it does usually end up getting dwarfed by the thing that's of course you know yeah better better faster cheaper you know like yeah style stuff entertainment i think is different like you go to a concert it's the most inefficient way to hear the music right the taylor swift concert right you if you like taylor swift music and you just wanna hear it just go on spotify right one tap away so why do you want this collective experience why do you wanna drive deal with parking get in there you know get to your seat it's kind of a pain in the ass to go to a concert right so what is it about that that's you know it's a it's it only happens once right it's like an experience that you get to happen and but well you know by the numbers a lot more people will stream taylor swift yeah and we'll go to that agree but you know she'll bank a lot of money you can and monetize totally totally differently yeah tell me about mister beast so i've gotten to go to his place and hang out with him a little bit pretty remarkable dude mh and not like oh he's like an alien or whatever but just like very interesting to kinda see him in his like normal ways of working and you can kinda see some differences between how he approaches things like know for me i was like oh how does he approach things do how does he see situations and approach things differently than i do and he came on the pod but it asked you was like nothing he said on the pod would have given me that insight but actually watching him work and like kinda of being in a brainstorm with him then you do start to see those differences i think you've gotten a lot of access to to those moments yeah what what stood out to you that you've kinda like picked up or notice just my spend a little time with him i always say he's like most unique human i have ever met i think he's like very very unique in what he cares about you know i think what he cares about is very different from you know what i care about or what a lot of people care about he's different what does he care about he like is is so unique in the fact that he is laser focused in a way that i've never really experienced and and maybe at times like in in a way that i don't wanna experience yeah yeah just so he doesn't wanna i mean him and i have this conversation a lot like i i don't crave what he has i like to have more of a wide perspective on life and a view of different types of experiences and he's very committed to his craft and very like he he can laser focus in on something like if you've been in one of those brainstorm storms with him he's just like very blunt he's very you know he's just like why would we do that that doesn't make sense like no doesn't it it doesn't exist in the same way for him that it exists for other people based on social context or based on like well well it's saying yes so he said no doesn't exist for him yeah the same way that exists for other people i think that's really accurate yes i have a story of an example of that many stories what's one i do the time where i saw that the most was at the mister burger opening in new jersey there american dream mall colin and i what wasn't insane right we we spent the twenty four hours with him before and after yeah and lived with him through this like what felt like a hurricane storm of american fandom and new experiences for him and read and run the whole team you think it was gonna be go go to the part where where he walks out harry he walks out dude that was so i was the only camera behind him at that moment camera or this video like famous but i was like this is not what i thought was gonna i mean there's more times where i had the chills filming this video yeah so i filmed it i i know i film that clip and then jimmy was like that's crazy send me that and i sent it to him and then he tweeted it and it was just like it's completely insane but so that experience there was you know the night before there was question around like how many burgers they could serve and and there was already i think you know fifteen or twenty thousand people there the night before right it was so wow completely insane and they were sleeping in the mall mall security was there and they were just like okay alright i guess no i don't think anyone fully understood how big he was at that moment and so they were like okay we don't know if we can serve all these people and jimmy was just like what what do you mean let's just figure it out like what do we need to do and they're like it's just not possible we can't get more supplies here and he was like well can can we pay for it can we just pay someone to do it and he was like well i don't you know i don't think so i don't think that's possible and basically what ended up happening was it was possible and jimmy just kept pushing right at a point where again it's like a lot of people would be like okay that's a no if i asked three times it's a yeah there's no other possibility the far marshals set it he yeah know whatever yeah and i think that he he thinks in different ways to of like you know the the his immediate thought was around the staff he was like i need the staff to be really into this i need them to be on it and so he's like i'm gonna pay everyone an extra thousand dollars today and that is thirty thousand there's thirty people it was thirty thousand dollars and it's in our video where he says i'm gonna pay all of you guys an extra thousand dollars to whatever you're getting paid today right that's like an irrational thing to do a lot of people would look at that and like that's kind of a irrational to spend an additional thirty thousand dollars but you know he looks at that and he was like this is what i need to make this excellent right we're just gonna do that you know and you look at what he tweets about now too he spends you know million or two million dollars on a video and it makes two hundred thousand in adsense revenue and you know obviously his sponsors and stuff but some of his videos don't make money and and he's just like but that's they're good right you know he he thinks in just different ways like that yeah just very unique i yeah i feel the same way he also said some things so he also said some things that were like really funny to me like he was like i was like so do you wanna like have kids or like what's your like what do want out of life besides i yeah i've heard the youtube part and i was like what else do you want i think he had said he was like i wanna be president i wanna do this i wanna be a billionaire analyst it i was like okay cool like what about just like out of your life like forget the big cool sounding things like do you wanna get married and have kids like what do you wanna do and he was like he's like yeah you know i he's like yeah i'll i think i'll probably like you know date or get married or whatever he's like he's like i wouldn't want kids no fuck no i don't want kids and i was like oh why he's like he's like actually you know like steve and elon that they have kids there's probably something to it so i'll do and i was like i'm first just hilarious to be like like yeah just like the first name basically literally like the dead steve jobs said who you never imagine and be like he's just like that's that's the class of people i'm in yeah you know if those people did it might be something to it i'll do it just kinda for that reason but i don't feel the need for that because i'm on this mission and like you know that's where where my heads out right now i have seen him you know just being friends with him and having conversations then we just did another podcast with him recently i have seen him mature quite a bit yeah i think we we do have to remember like that's a guy in his mid twenties of course yeah you know i he wasn't even i know how old is i remember laughing i something i was like dude he's so much smarter and more mature than i was at twenty four or twenty three when it was different though i got again it's it that's not i don't i didn't have any friends like him when i was in my early twenties i think he's he's a very rare individual and he's twenty five now and he's maturing into he runs a company with over a hundred plus employees he's he's got this like whole massive operation this massive platform and he's twenty five it's it's gonna be interesting to watch the next five years if you were to advise him what would you tell i think he's already experiencing some of this where he's looking at his content and injecting more storytelling into it which i think is really really smart and something that colin and i've been talking to about for a long time yeah you know it's the same thing i was saying earlier of i i think it's okay to to have a deeper connection with him and and with the with the content and with the contestants that he has on there and he can sacrifice some of the you know hyper retention editing for that i also you know a year ago probably would have tell told him he potentially is doing too many things and he's already you know refocus right he's he's really just focused on the main channel in feast and if you think about a year ago feast main channel reacts gaming right these are all different things he's doing right plus twenty five other right amazing opportunities yeah people who wanna meet them and this got right everything will tug your attention away and it's he's ex he can be excellent in all of those things but as you as you grow up as you mature it's like what do you say yes to what do you say no to and when you're at that platform where you have any and every opportunity how do you focus right it's it's hard the way i'll put is he can be excellent at any of those but probably not all of the all them yeah right yeah not at the same time right you could do anything you just can't do everything at the same time because as a creator in a career led business you are the bottleneck for everything and i've spent time with him he is the bottleneck for everything right like he needs to be pulled into the room to to look at something he has you know say on on all of that stuff and he also has the right you know mind for it he that's the reason that company so big and why he's built such a big platform so where do you inject that is it across twenty projects or is it across two and you know i think they've they've really refocus and focused on on every one of these platforms has like a guy at a certain time or a girl at a certain time that's like the one they're like you know you know whether it was like casey neistat pewdiepie like kind of they have these like epic arcs and they're the top of the mountain and then most of them either literally stop creating because they kind of the transition careers they get burnt out whatever it is or they're still creating but they're just not like there's the new wave of new people doing new cool shit he is kinda remarkable though so you know he may have a different path or trajectory than than most if you if i was say alright make a prediction five years from now what is like today if mister mitsubishi is like you know the number one you youtube creator and like launching couple of these businesses underneath like feast whatnot five years from now do you think he's still the number one creator on youtube i think he's probably the number one online digital media company i don't know that you know i i know what creator is gonna mean in that many years like i think he has the best pulse on on online storytelling right now and i think you know we saw some people try this like the buzzfeed feeds the you know like these these massive media companies that emerge i think he's more akin to a media companies than he is a creator so i i that's what i think i think he'll be the biggest media company the way he's building is like a true company it's a great vibe there if you've been there you know look it it's they have good people involved so i don't know i i don't know you know what the content looks like i don't know what he as the creator looks like but i think it will be a a media company like when we sat with him last in our last interview he has a ton of aspirations to make content for netflix he has a ton aspirations to produce stuff and know i don't think he's that keen or or intent on he has to be in everything or he has to be the lead in everything right i think that's been the that is the draw right now but i think in the future it it mister beast is a content studio you you know it it could be we could be looking at like we don't know if we're not looking at the next disney or paramount or you know some massive studio that can build ip and monetizing in different ways like mister beast is the first if we look at it and saying that's the first show that was built out of there right it's a game show that has a couple different formats it's distributed it's the biggest show right they built a chocolate brand out of that that operates kinda like a game show you can win stuff when you buy the chocolate right so it's like okay that looks and feels really similar to like a disney and a mickey mouse right okay let's let's build this big media platform let's build a product connected to it the there they have that skill set they probably replicate that right and as you look at their cast of characters you know there is a cast of characters there that can be built out there is more ip that can be built out it's like build ip connect product to it right you know our connect experiences to it it could be an experienced too yeah if he if he chooses to to go that path i wanna talk about this this is amazing so yeah so you're con your yeah content company did something pretty dope you guys did i think was a hundred editions or if those five hundred of those no but this was to celebrate it was celebrate two years of our newsletter two yeah two years of the newsletter or the published so you got this newsletter the public press which is dope it's like you what you guys do on the youtube channels are like creator no a great news newsletter creators i mean it was largely inspired by like the morning brew hustle movement right yep was like okay we are subscribers to these newsletters what if we made one about our own community yeah and then then you made actual physical newspaper yeah very honored because you yeah pretty much sold out of these yeah this was dope why do something like this because i i i'm asking because this isn't like an economic move this isn't this is not gonna grow your audience it's not gonna get you rich yeah it's not gonna do any of those things it takes effort yeah it's a risk in a in a little in a way what's your philosophy on just do dope shit like this why it just it's fulfilling like i it's it's hard to say that we have a hard nose philosophy on it it's just like we are creative people and as we've built a business like one of one of the things that's so interesting about being a creative is you're really good at kinda like zero to one and the like let's just do cool shit until something works what becomes startling is when something works and then you're like okay so what now i just keep doing this right yeah and that's like that's the really funny thing about colin and i always say that creative aren't consistent people right and so we've surrounded ourselves with really consistent people who help us be consistent in the formats that we found but you need that occasional pop of just like you know it'd would be cool to make a newspaper right like we we we were rebranding the published rest that's the new logo for it we just we're like how do we how do we tell people that we've been doing this for two years how do we celebrate it also was we just crossed a hundred thousand subscribers on the newsletter and it was like how do we celebrate this moment right what what is it do we just put out a tweet that's like hey it's been great and we were like well as things are getting more increasingly more digital what if we did something physical and that that was it that was the the impetus and then it was just hey is everyone excited about this okay cool are we down to stay up late at night for this great and and that's it just organically happens when you there's a lot of people who we asked about this and they were like that's you know we that's not gonna happen in the time period that we wanted to happen in and then that's another exciting thing for a creative person if who's proven i found jealous that's another exciting thing so so yeah i would say that it it's again like it cost us money we did not make money from this there's no sponsor in it or anything it it didn't you know dramatically grow our audience but it's it so has been a moment where a lot of people could understand what the brand was and a lot of big creators reached out to say can have one yeah know i want one in my house and then we were seeing that creators have framed it and put it in their house seeing that there's just something for a you you you dm us and asked for one and like that to me is like again back to this concept of high quality audience it's like the people who reached out about this right it's a premium in the mask because it's like in retrospect once you see the final product in it's cool and then you hear these stories and it's like yeah all these things make sense is hindsight it's up upfront when it's kind of unknown kind of improving tight deadline you know a lot of things to do that's when it's hard to do this or or sometimes you say yes to too many of these things so it's almost like sure ever what you just said kinda reminds me like google had like the twenty percent time yeah i we get hired the best engineers in the world and like this guy's fixing the bug in the adsense platform but like we gotta give these guys like twenty percent time to just tinker and hack on yeah stuff that that they you know get motivation from and like on logically you'd say well you're losing you know twenty percent time is basically one day one day out of out of the week that they're not working on on this on their main job but the reality is that like sometimes those hit and also it makes the other four days out of the week yeah more productive you don't actually lose anything totally because you attract the best people and you gave them an outlet to like you'd be creative and also if you're not following what's exciting you then you're just you built yourself job right and that's like then you have to look it and be like wait what i just do right what what i just do i i also think that the you know what we do with our merchandise and what we do with anything physical like most of it at the moment is not driving crazy revenue right it's like a revenue driver for us but we think about building our community and we're we're very niche and so for niche creators we think about collectible like we wanna create collective right yeah and when we have collectible then you get to be a part of our community and be like i'm it it's the feeling of going to see a band when you were younger and keeping the ticket stop it's like i was a part of this community at this moment right so these are collectible along the way of of our journey you think about the the massive creators like logan paul and mister beast or emma in chamberlain they're creating consumables yeah which is great for mass creators right so these these things are like cool collectible that we think are cool like we're planning another drop in in october and our merchandise does not you know drive like crazy amounts of revenue for us it's relatively nominal but it's awesome when you walk down the street and see someone in the merch which sold you know two thousand of these hats and they're they're out in the world and right two thousand people are wearing them and we we we see stories where people connect because they saw someone else wearing the merge so that to me is like the symbol of community building this tight knit group who can connect and back like i'm part of the same group as you identify in the same world as you do totally we that i love what you put it it's a great frame on on that idea of consumables versus collectible when we we're about to launch like merch for the pod or whatever and it was like oh yeah merch and it's like okay here's two things i know number one people don't wanna them wear our like for us it was like they're not gonna wear a shirt this is my first million like is not gonna happen not cool i don't wanna wear that they don't wanna wear that let's just all agree on that what they will wear is like inside jokes and slang that only you if you know you know if you don't you don't no small stuff yeah more voice stuff or like i have this shirt that it's a we made that's a polaroid of like a fuzzy polaroid of sam when you had his hotdog dog stand it's like in the style of those like kanye whatever it's like some like cool cool looking like it's a imitation of spray it's like nobody even know who that is or what's a hot like you can't even tell that it's a hot stand but like it's if you know you know and that's and that's it yeah i was like we should just do i was like what if for my rule is like the tim ferris rule is basically if you're not gonna make a ton of money on it it should be free or it should be like as just sell out at cost but like and do like a limited run so that it's more interesting totally and just only like if you're gonna try to make money only make money when you're gonna make a lot of money don't try to like trickle a little bit of beg for money everywhere because that doesn't like nobody likes that and that's not the right approach for something like this and a lot of our merch also way to think about a lot of our merch shipments are driven by our referral program to the newsletter right right so that's like you know again that's like pulling from the the playbook in yeah the the the whole the newsletter playbook you had this tweet or this video that i saw that was like a naval quote that i really liked it was it said like was is like your problem is that you're writing to be read yes that resonated with you and me want to like talk about that why did that hit because so simple like you know yeah seven words or something i think it hit me at a time where i felt like we were creating very scared at the beginning of this year i felt like we were creating very scared like we had crossed a million subscribers last year we felt like we had built a brand in the space and opened up the year we made a few videos that we just canned we just didn't put them out because we were like those aren't gonna work for the audience but we liked them and got really in our heads around you know again you're you're playing this dance as a creator of what you wanna make what the audience wants to watch and what the platform wants right those are the three things that we think you're you're constantly playing with and if you over value what the audience wants you will you're you're catering to you know this group that obviously they've created your career if if you know you've made it but you you can't forget that it came from what you wanted to make i think on on one side of the spectrum of you know being a publisher or being a creator there is the artist who's like i do not care what you think i'm going to make this and that has financial implications right that are essentially very hard to make money like that but very cool we respect artists like that right there's some most respected artists like are misunderstood maybe understood once they pass or just didn't care about what the audience thought right your interpretation doesn't matter to them right then you go on and like love that you exist but like sure i like guacamole on my chipotle because obviously gonna how gonna have a job okay the other side of the spectrum is being a distributor it's like why do we have so many spider man movies because they put butts and seats right so the person at the studio the movie studio is not an artist they're thinking about what do we make what do we green light spider man that's gonna get people in the seats that's gonna sell tickets and i think it's a creator you have to be in the middle of that and some creators slide heavy on the the side of distributor of just like what does the audience wanna watch i'll make that whatever you know and then on the other side of what do i wanna make and so i think that naval nevada quote really hit me in this feeling of losing you know i didn't grow up i went to film school i you know took play writing and college i'm like it really into arts stuff and i think when money gets involved when you start commercial your creativity and when it doesn't work for years that's an important part of our story right it didn't work for a long time we didn't make any money for a long time you get terrified of losing it and when you get terrified of losing it you start creating to be watched or writing to be red what is it creating scared yeah creating scared yeah i think let's take a book title right there i like that one yeah i it's something colin and i talk about a lot it's like let's not create scared you know what are we scared of you know like again it's it's it's all this mix of the public view count the perception the tweets of like these guys have fallen off or you whatever your think is gonna happen if you put out a video that people don't like and people can feel that i think i i think you can feel it as a creator feels really uncomfortable to to create scared right yeah it's not it's not fun to watch yeah absolutely you know you had hu mh he's on the show and love hudson he he's very much on the artist side i think he like drew line in the sand for himself he's like okay i either i'm gonna get on take tiktok and i'm gonna dance for the algorithm yeah or i'm gonna go the other way and i'm not and he's like had like the soul searching moment it's not like you know he he sent me a voice memo once i was just like bro i'm gonna just create great art i'm an artist and artist creates art that's what i'm doing i'm not a businessman first i'm not a creative at first i'm i'm this what i'm gonna do and he's like so i gotta be true to that and i i'm gonna board on projects that are like interesting to me from that perspective and it's gotta hit my bar on that and like that's the vibe i got from them but you know this was a few years ago when i yeah when we were talking about that stuff you had them on think more recently yeah end of last did he say anything that kinda resonates with you on that totally yeah i mean he he talked a lot about he kind of changed my whole perception on making youtube shorts because he what did he say he got made he he kinda made fun of it you know it's husband's like so funny the way he he talks but he he described making youtube shorts as being a skinned rat for the engineers in san bruno which thought was really funny he was just like your guinea pig you are you know essentially creating more data points for them for there you know you're you're they're your boss you know whatever works on their algorithm you then pan to that right and so he he he kind of pushed us in that that direction of recognizing like are we artists or are we creating for the algorithm and the second thing he said which i i heavily resonate with this just like everything is about the pdf which means like what is the idea right write it on a piece of paper is the idea good show it to someone pitch it to someone do they immediately go that's a good idea do they laugh do they feel some sort of emotion before it's before it's me yeah and he was like people even when we got on our pre call with him he was like alright what are we making together when we sit down right and he asked us that question and i was like oh you're right what is the hassan mina colin in sami smear interview let's write it out let's let's not plan it but what is it like what's the idea why is this a good idea to do this right his answer we talked about like how can we like how can we bring forward his creator story of starting on youtube and using youtube to go through kind of this crazy windy path up to netflix right and how he's now kind of left youtube because awesome husband's origins are on youtube yeah i used to upload he came up with shows and and put them on youtube if you go to his channel and search by oldest like kinda like sketch shows shows he did hosted shows where he talked about the news like almost like to point touch point o yeah that for us was like no one's no one has told that story that's interesting let's talk about that and let's talk about your relationship with with he was almost like eighteen nineteen doing like comedy clubs right like you stand up at like yeah san francisco or something like that totally yeah i i watched him do king's j live like we went out to go did you go to one of his was really good yeah so that's a stand up special i guys like a performer man like he he re he really inspired me to be like this isn't like a comedy show yeah it's it's a one man show it's it's a performance and that to me it really inspired both colin and i to be like this is a craft you have to work on it you know performing is part of this craft idea is the biggest part of it you know he has a writing partner that he sits in running you meet pratt or yeah what's see he like i've never gotten a meet him but i i'm very i'm very very fascinated by kind of the the wing man yeah but like there's a lot a of pop popular people but almost all of them are not nobody's solo low and now i don't have some kind of a team and usually they have like they're they're confident the person who's in the bunker with them figuring things out compliments them does all the shit they're not good at yeah yep but like kind of like keeps them going in the right direction and those people are actually really really fascinating to me and nobody really like ask them a ton of questions i have a million questions for them what yeah would tell a little bit about i think oftentimes as as creative and creators we think where we wanna hire an employee but actually what we want as a collaborator yeah and if you're lucky enough to come up with a collaborator then you know those are the people in my opinion who typically make it right fully make it when they have a collaborator so pratt limited time with him but i find comedian to be like astute observers of the world and i found pratt to be like very much that right like he he had a notebook and pen during the king's j taping it was don't know if it was a taping or if it was just one of the shows but they were prepping for the netflix special yeah and he was sitting there during the entire show sitting right in front of me just ferocious taking notes on what was working what the audience was reacting to when there was too too much of a pause when there wasn't like he was and right after the show before husband came back into the green room him and pratt we're talk i love that yeah i love it when it's sort of like we're going back to the lab yeah it's like we kind of like we do our thing but like because i i tell so ben's michael lab basically so like we did a couple businesses together but also when it comes to content like we recently did a we're kinda new to youtube but we did we used to just basically put the podcast on youtube yeah i remember know it's like you guys are growing now though i started really bad it was like we would first one we didn't remember we had like four thousand views and i was just like oh man like but like which was is fine for when you start by we already had the podcast with significant so it was like it's kinda like if you play poker at one stakes and then you go down to the micro stakes like you know quarters tencent table doesn't feel very fun because you've now experienced a different level stakes but those aren't even in the same casino spotify or apple pods or youtube yeah there it's a completely different group of people exactly so so we were like alright i think we could do this and so we started to grow but recently we did one and it's this this money one that's on the right there that has how many views i have now three one thousand yeah right so three hundred thousand views and this was a video it was the first video that i made youtube first i was like okay i'm gonna create a video that i think it's gonna be like youtube it's not just a podcast mh and me and ben like what if we just took three days is like we just tried to make one great video for this and we did and when we made that and we were basically collaborating on that for the first time we had done that that way but the cool thing is now we've been working together for a couple years and you get this like mind mel where it's like it's almost like you only could you could speak in shorthand or reference like like if if you say something i already know what part he's gonna be like oh we gotta talk about that later right because that relates to these other three things and then earlier we talked about this but that's and it's like if you can get to that point that's like a pretty like formidable thing that i think most people don't have but when we have it it's like oh fuck this is that lets you go places i think you need someone who's excited and wants to to be a part of a team where their name isn't at the forefront right which which can be really complex right but we know who pratt is but if you're a fan of hu oz and scale you're not gonna know who he is nice so you have to find someone who's really into that too who likes especially person if you've ever tried to hire a lot of people like i wanna work you because i wanna be i wanna be yeah and it's like okay cool but that doesn't really work like especially with this group what i need yeah yeah this group right now it's hard to hire someone who doesn't want to be the creator or you know is is trying to become a creator right and and working with you to be like okay now i get it now i'm gonna go right do it yeah you have to find someone who's who's down for that but it's it is kind of like being an athlete where you know you guys when i leave you're gonna talk about the performance yeah you're gonna you're gonna probably watch game tape back you're gonna watch it back and be like oh maybe i should have asked this question right or maybe this would have been more interesting or he went a little long here i should have stopped him you know like there's so much that goes into this that if you deeply care about the craft and you have someone who cares that much about the craft you can get better at the craft get better faster you can get better way faster yeah yeah it's hard to find right it's it's typically happens just organically and then you're like okay this is my guide now right how much do you guys you guys have your business off the back of your thing which is the new newsletter the newsletters a yeah kind of a different type of business it's actually separate company and there's separate people writing that thing it's not you guys creating it necessarily have you seen and i'm i'm i'm i'm keeping track of these kind of creator driven businesses where you have like almost like a mh an audience c cofounder company and like in the way you used to have like a technical c cofounder for a business now you have almost like a distribution c cofounder and all these cool what have you seen that maybe everybody hasn't heard of because i think everybody's kinda heard mister b kristen maybe a couple others but what are some cool ones that you're keeping an eye on or i i should know about our other people should know about the typical creator business is make content sell ads right which is like that's that's baseline some people never need to grow out of that because that's just a good business yeah but like when when you go through those extensions like i think ali dahl has a fantastic education business he's a creator out of the uk who talks about productivity and he's built a series of courses and wasn't he a doctor too he was a doctor prior yeah you're right a doctor he's an excellent teacher but he has built a great business that is you know very much focused on online education i think he publishes his done publishers his name there's like four million a year on his like four or five million on his pushing to six this year creator academy which basically like become a youtuber yes yes and he has a ton of courses on skillshare about like studying for the mca or you like he he's just figured out that okay i'm really good at making online video yes one of those ways is to monetize through advertising but another one is through all my video and that's the classic like build one sell twice right it's like you build it it lives on skillshare on your own website for years to come people can buy it right so i i really like the digital product business because it's just scalable and it we do very few things that are scalable as creators right i also think there's a there's a future model now which is potentially there's a a a creator named emilia mu who has a show called chicken shop date okay it's her it's a great show were you the one who showed me yeah it's it's a great show she she's had jack harlow on it she just had jennifer lawrence on it's what's the shake what's the stick it's like at a chicken shop whatever a chicken place it's a date at a fried chicken place in london and the chicken shop in london is like the last place you would go right to have a date so there's comedy in it she's a comedian and through it yeah through this so just had like this has now spun her into essentially creating her own production company where brands come to her and say we love your stick we love your comedy we love the way you've created this show like this show has no advertising in it no advertisers and we'll never have advertisers and this thing does you know the jack harlow episode is fifteen million views this regularly does you know one to five million views in the first week but no advertisers and what it operates as is like it's a production company and nike just came to her so she kinda created an agency create an agency yeah so like nike came to her approved like i can create a cool likable company it's vertically integrated where she can come up with the idea then her company can shoot the idea then she can be the talent in the idea and then the thing that i think we forget is like she's the distribution outlet for that idea too where does she post on her own on her own youtube channel yeah so she she wasn't ads but she'll put like full episodes unless i saw barbie she she went and posted the barbie premier that's smart so i like that there's another creator named amanda lee who's who's based in canada and what she did is she started youtube by showing bullet journal and how she was setting up her bullet journals i'm what is i don't know so get go to the channel amanda r a c h and then lee and now yeah like go to like one of these bullet journal set because this just looks like etsy of too right yeah yeah and how many views does it have three million so when she started she was doing these bullet journal setups like he here's how i set up my journal and then what she did was swap out the journal she was using and create her own customer journal company and that to me is like epitome of creator business right where it's what colin and i called content product fit she didn't have to change the content right to integrate the product yeah right you just i mean to talk about a big example it's chamberlain coffee when i'm a chamberlain launched that she drank coffee in every episode right swap her off the product placement but done that like a a whole another level yeah yeah and i think you know it's something we're actually struggling with with our newsletter which is like our version of that how do we integrate that in every episode sure we can bring it up but that doesn't drive subscribers right so it's it's logan paul said this about prime you said a lot of creators when they talk about their own product it sounds like they're doing a brand deal yeah they don't know how to integrate it regularly first you know and like the nell boys with happy dad right their their alcohol is in every single episode right because they're showing presence yeah yeah logan has prime everywhere with him right so you know i think creators who have this like amanda they can build really substantial business content product fit yeah content product fit so this is a really impressive business to me because it's just it's niche but three million people watch this and she sells this journal yeah that's insane yeah she's gotta be doing i mean what do you think she's making on on something like this i i've spent time with her she's never told me but i will say that she speaks at a lot of shopify events as like a a very good case study for them i know she's doing well she has a good team the thing i love about this business too it it's repeat purchases there's a new journal drop you can run out of pages in a journal once you you know once you have allegiance to this it's like yeah you know great so i've had this idea for because i'm a big journal guy yeah so and so i was like dude don't wanna create my own because i don't know i'm like i have an idea of what i want mine to be i just haven't made so if i'm make it for myself maybe about make others but the best example my favorite example of this is actually a really small steaks one which is the ryan holiday coin totally that's like yeah such a good example of this because he was like he's the way he described it so first is like con the content product fit where he's just like stoic here's the like reminder coin that like you're gonna die doesn't like you know whatever remember you're gonna die whatever but he was like you know i've done like t shirts t shirts suck yeah and he's like i wanted something that was like i could fit in an envelope a normal envelope so like mailing was easy i wanted something like had manufacturer here i have to like produce overseas whatever he's like no sizes no colors like just like there's one yeah like there's one sku and i'm gonna sell and i think you sold like twenty million dollars of this one snow over the really yeah i'm pretty sure if he said that housing i think appreciate throw on on our our episode or we like you you order him out of it like you know we're like i think you done is that wrong is that in the ballpark and he's like us something you know i'm not wrong i think probably one of the biggest creator led companies right now that that maybe isn't as as prominent in the mainstream conversation is mark robe crunch labs mh that which is like a subscription subscription box spam or something right like you're like yeah science exactly it's a science kit i got it for my nephews it is excellent they are hooked on it nice like it is excellent i text mark about i'm like dude this product is crazy like that's huge just a big business huge yeah that's a big business yeah yeah i i and i know he said now that that makes more than his channel yeah for i mean his channel's is massive that's that's a great other ratings because he does basically creates science experiments right that's right yeah and he has big versions of that in his video so like he'll make a big version of it right and then he'll be and you can make a minute miniature version of this at home yeah i think this content model this what you're just describing here these examples is like i always think about when i meet someone i'm like wow you had so much success like what you do and they're often the stories is basically like you know there was like a moment in time where like if you realized like x like x thing works which is like in the early days of google it would be like i could buy clicks for a scent for like any keyword like that's the insane like okay let me just work back backwards what's the best keyword and like so that's how i got into like selling leads to lawyers or whatever right like you know asbestos you know removal of company or whatever and then it's like like our buddy created native deodorant and he's like yeah basically like i started this when facebook ads we're kinda like under used and people were only using them for like like media companies are trying to buy facebook ads but but they were like driving them back to a blog post and monetizing with a google ads there right right it's not really good model i realize like you can sell just like a product to facebook ads with really simple ads and you don't want like things that you used to have to go into target get target's to carry you you could just start selling directly to consumer through facebook with d i mean like there wasn't really like as much of a category yet but like if you knew if you knew that secret during that time it was kind of an open secret but not like wasn't obvious to everybody yet yeah i mean i think mv watches another great influencers with that's led marketing but i i think what's incredibly hard especially for creators right now is that what you have to sacrifice to have that that view and that long term view of building a product because advertising revenue is so available right now to us and again you you kind of pull the levers when it comes to youtube it's the highest margin advertising dollars that i think you know has existed in in video content ever right because you don't get on the phone with the advertising you're you're negotiating a contract there's no sales team there's no back and forth there's no revision yeah but youtube takes what like forty five percent yeah but yeah it's like this not you know dude but there you just don't see it you don't see it it's just like and like you don't do it work don't to do any work you don't do it right you just you upload content you get a check in the mail so creators who make really viral content that has reasonably high cpm it's like wash you know should make another video and then a brand deal comes and that can be you know anywhere from from twenty fifty thousand dollars all the way up to two hundred thousand writers right and you're like well okay alright i'll make another one of those videos and then what i find is that a lot of creators never get to that moment of okay now we should stop and put our focus in right over here and how do we even do its totally different skill set yeah how do i even do that how do i hire someone i think that's the biggest need in the creator economy right now is operators are the biggest need yes and education on how to hire is so it's just not there right because there were it's all young people who who grows funny by the way because there's so many operators because i'm comfortable to an yeah yeah and all the operators like dude i can i if i just had the right influencer sir this this is a soap we can sell a lot of this soap right or whatever the thing is i gonna pick them pick your favorite widget and and for them it's like a total black box like how do i go meet these people and get them to trust me enough to do this and so like this also see them have the temperament to to want that right like a lot of creators have to they they might conceptually think they want it but then when they get into it and their name is on a soap product right and they don't really like that it went out to a customer and it wasn't perfect and then they're like oh i don't wanna do this in they freaked out figure yeah right because it's like i have so much control over how my brand shows up that when you start to scale that it gets uncomfortable right it so and do you i have this question up here i put on this list so three creators likely to become a billionaire i gave you the one for you can say jimmy and he could be one yeah what other creators do you think have the potential to build a billion dollar empire around what they're doing it's combination of the content plus businesses whatever i think did perfect i saw they did like a amusement partners like they're working on it yeah hundred million dollar project yes it yes what does that mean they're that's what they're investing into this project i i don't know the specifics of it i've spent a lot they they're actually i've known them for a really long time like i you know been on youtube and around youtube for twelve years they were the first group that i got involved with early on when when we sold our last company and they're kinda like they trick shots with your fan that it worked but they make sports accessible to you know young kids through trick shots and and know viral sports videos and the the the reason i bring it up is like i think those guys have been at this now since around two thousand six or seven right and they have remained you at at the top of their game throughout that whole experience they also went through a long period of time where you know they've done the work like i watched them hold the cameras for years even when they were at thirty million subscribers they would just go out themselves right hold the cameras and edit the videos and they still sit there in in the edit base and make sure they're perfect and i think they if you've if you've seen images of they just did a tour see images of like fans young kids who turn out for that the parents i i had a conversation with them one time where they they said their goal is to be the the most trusted brand and entertainment and i actually believe that they are they're on track for that where parents really trust that they can take their kids to a dude perfect event right and that when you take that to an amusement park when you take that a couple steps forward i think that matters a lot in the future and i think they're they're on track for sure that makes sense yeah makes sense i like that pick anyone else come to mind that you think has the potential to to do something large like that i think i i i think of some creators who have the potential but i don't know if they want to do it you know like i i i think cody ko is actually someone who's he's he's coming here tomorrow oh he is yeah i i love cody i know you went on his show yeah i think cody is like one of the most intelligent people i've met yeah in the space i think he he even as he's like in starting to invest now and i can i was thinking about it because him and i were texting yesterday and i was thinking about my i was who's is cody in ten years he's either like in the woods you know like yeah showing a free man dji and running or he's like running the biggest capital company you know i and i think that's just a personal choice up to him it's all available to him but yeah i i i don't know that i i'm sure there's others that i'm not thinking of but they're my favorite brand on youtube t g t g is my i favorite channel on youtube i think noel miller like a true or special and special like i think there's very rare of people like him and also very not very many people like cody c right so yeah they're music videos are so goddamn good it's actually kind of it's kinda frustrating yeah this is like a bit it's a bit off putting like dude what like you can't just do that right at that you can do it as joke it can't also be amazing be good yeah it can't also be good it can't also make me wanna listen to it multiple times right yeah funny and amazing andy you just did it like for kicks on the side right on top of your other successful thing i find this like pursuit of being a billionaire to be yeah very fascinating like i i i don't really have interest in it i if it if it's the outcome of what i decide to do that would be interesting but i it's not like i i don't find myself to be focused on that outcome and i i also found most creators i talked to are not focused on that totally but i think it's in the video game of entrepreneurship it is the final boss right so you're kind of like if a final boss is actually walking away sure yeah you the person who says they have enough is is like like a you know paul graham who created l which is i think probably the most successful text start actually because it created sure all these other text startups and like it created a dropbox and it created airbnb like they probably wouldn't like to say created but like they without them there is no reddit there is no there are there probably aren't those mh those businesses being successful including open because right he saw sam alt and made him president when there was tons of other more qualified candidates on paper but he's like this even says something he's like this is like what it would be like to talk to a young bill gates like mh saw that before and now he's created open ai which is yeah today the most you know one of the most valuable private startups so anyways yc gets the peak of its powers or it gets like you know does amazing amazing stuff ten years in and paul's like sam here you go i'm going to the woods in the uk and i'm gonna live in the woods with my family and i'm gonna basically like write essays paint and code and like you know that's what i'm gonna do and that is the final boss to silicon look at valley because you see most people just go right back into the hamster wheel and they start running again but that's like the final boss of life right it's like making that realization is not wanting anymore yeah being like content and and developing a relationship with the term enough yeah that's that's a hard thing to do but totally do you have that do you have a number or like a do you do you feel like you have enough like what are you in pursuit of is i'm in pursuit of a really specific thing which is i heard a quote once that i think naval said he goes the the day you stopped trading today for a better tomorrow you've retired so he's like basically if the things you do today in and of themselves were the reward of what you did today you've now you've actually exited the game you've you've retired you retirement doesn't mean you go sit down and do nothing it means you're not saying alright i'm a do this shit today that i don't really wanna do i don't like to do but i'm doing it because it's gonna pay off in the future pay in the future and like your whole life goes by doing that yeah and so when i heard that i was like oh guilty you know guilty like you know put me put me cuffs take me jail like that's me i'm i've spent the first you know fifteen years of my career like you know from twenty to thirty five basically was that i was like oh i'm gonna do x and i'm gonna say i didn't enjoy it necessarily but like definitely i was the doing x because it might lead to y i i totally agree i've never just done that too yeah i've never just made my main thing like i'm doing x because i just doing x seems fun yeah and so that's the that's the game i'm playing now is to try to achieve that to craft my life sets that that's true and so even though it's like weird it's like you know it's awesome what's it's like what i like to do i don't know like to i like to do this podcast i like to read right like to talk know i like to like yeah you know working on these little tinker with these little things or you know just under understand go down rabbit holes and just see how things work in the world and it's like those are the things that i do without thinking about some like future payoff so i don't think they even like or they don't clearly have one well you can also have the there's another tim ferris moment in our in our episode together he was like something to the tune of like you can d the the non financial reward and the financial reward right right so like this experience there's a non financial reward to this which is like we have a good conversation right cool this is fun we both go home that reward is complete then you put it out if there's a performance reward to it amazing if that leads to financial opportunity great you know like but that's a separate reward is if you can d those things then that is yeah just basically like the way i think that stuff is like there's a car and you can have a bunch of passengers in the car it's like you know i have like my ego but hopefully it's in the trunk it shouldn't be driving like let's put him in the back yeah yeah yeah it's kind of annoying but he's there and you got like you know the thrill of things that's in the car but i don't really want thrill to drive because he takes us off the cliff like who gets to drive and so you know that's kinda the so to me i'm like oh who gets to drive is like the version of me that is following my curiosity creating shit consistent like just creating things yeah and is content with life and has like a i'm doing it because i wanna do it i'm doing it because it's enjoyable to do i'm doing it because it's challenging so even though if it's not cut that enjoyable like i'm struggling at it i'm enjoying the struggle of doing this thing yeah and so that's why i want to drive meaning that's who gets to ultimately make the decision of where are we going in this car other people might have input other the other parts of me might have but like i want money i want this i want that yeah but i can't like like basically money was driving for a long ass time and then it's like hold on wait the deal was you get to drive till we get to this number we got to that number you don't get to drive anymore yeah and maybe you shouldn't have been driving for first but at least in my life i was like i wanna get to basically a a financial freedom number a number where i can spend whatever one on my lifestyle and it's coming off of my investment income not out of like by working income yeah because then it's like quote money works for money i work for me man i think that is a big opportunity with creators it'd be like a smaller group but i think as creators were really good at generating money but we don't know how to turn money into money right because we're it's like it's a totally different totally different skill set and then we don't know who to trust with that you know i think if there was a creator focused group that helped with that that well we went to this athlete thing yesterday with a bunch of there's a bunch of basketball pairs and it's the same thing like literally we were joking we're like this event would be cool if it was just the athletes to do what they do and us but then you have all the cleaners yeah and you're like who do i trust and then they're like yeah and like and some of the cleaners are the people they trust and they're like kinda safe choice but they don't actually know how to do the thing for them sure like you know actually if they asked i would for free help them or tell them exactly what they should be doing so their money works for money and they don't like piss it away yeah but the incentive is not for me to go chase them and reach them and then beg them to listen to my advice yeah the guy who's trying to take their money is incentivized to chase them and beg them and and try to convince them that they're the guy who's gonna help them right it's like this weird like per reverse incentive was like the guy who's gonna like work his hardest as to break into your circle is the one who wants something yeah you actually don't wanna work with someone who like needs something you yeah yeah on the sports topic there's one work d destroying he is a sports creator football focused creator he he played football at uc and this is pre n days right so he played football he was making youtube videos they brought him into a room and said you have a choice can either continue playing football or you can continue with your youtube channel he chose youtube and built this this really substantial youtube channel he has the series called one on ones that just partly go live to places he goes to city like live events and they get crazy like in arizona it had to get called off because it was like too many people there and the police had to get involved i was gonna go he but i think he he he messaged are management somebody messaged okay okay mean like is an hour away i was like that sounds kinda of fucking but i didn't make it out what does he do actually it's one on one so basically it's wide receivers versus corner backs and that's line up and they go one on one and one dude wins ten thousand dollars and for for some of the communities going into that's life changing right for a lot of communities he's the guy in the thing or it's he's the other guys he's the okay you know and like he you can see like this is this is what it looks like if you go to his channel and go to most viewed that's in my own high school right so cool so yeah so that if that guy had caught it he would have he ten rant no he answer tournament it's it's a tournament and you and then you start to know these characters and they travel to different markets this is to the new and one mixtape tape exactly great this is and win mixtape tape from football and colin and i spoke with at at a youtube event with d and he was speaking with roger and we were talking to roger about des destroying and he was like this guy is like really impactful for football oh wow he's he's creating new fans and the nfl just partnered with him on this series the one on one series and i think when i look at d like the leagues are starting to get involved with him in a way where i'm like wait he is single handedly a really important part of the future of sports viewership yep and that to me i don't know that he i know if he has aspirations to be a billionaire but to solve that problem for the nfl is a big problem to solve and you solve that for the cfo and you start solving that you know you go online this can also become camps told this can become you know so many things right old as his always he can become a host he he's probably should be one of the hosts for the nfl like or like the promo which no one's watching i think he can also create a yeah i mean he can redefine the pro this is more interesting his order is yeah like half looking at you because i'm might because you're watching i mean i we we pulled this up in our office and we have ton of people who don't watch sports and then they got hooked on it like this primal it's a primal yeah and so he can redefine the pro bowl he can also create a nih agency right so you have college athletes who he represents this you know where college athletics didn't let you monetize he knows how to do this right so okay now can d create a nih agency where he's signing athletes and getting them contracts he the world of dee like the world of sports no one is really approaching it like him and i think that like sports is still high it carries a very high dollar value live sports yeah it's it carries such high dollar value that i think he has that opportunity as well there was a guy at that event we were that was you you'll know him because he's lacrosse poles oh ray yeah yeah he's a groom in my wedding one of my best friends amazing he i i don't know much about this we at a boardroom event yeah yeah so tell me about it so basically he what he was saying on stage was like okay we created this professional lacrosse leading yeah he what was interesting who's like there's like whatever i don't know teams or something but he's like we own the teams yeah it's not like a franchise model and i think he's like we pay the costs but then like all the players have upside and the thing like what is the business model of this this sounded pretty fascinating and yeah so it's you think it's a good model also i'm an investor so a bias yes but i've you know what i've always seen in in lac lacrosse if you if you pull up go to the premier cross link youtube channel and and play the last vlog from their all star game you get a sense for like the community that one the fastest shot right that yeah so you get you get a sense for like what it looks like i mean they were going wild but like they they packed the stadium out in louisville for their officer game so basically what he did was there was a preexisting league called major league lacrosse they paid their players terribly they treated them not the best league that was the only pro league it was like and no one really cared about it i mean like it it was it was kind of interesting but it was empty stadiums they didn't have health care was like they weren't treated like it was tough to be a pro athlete and not get paid much right and paul became the you know number one cross area and the biggest media platform colin and i actually ran his youtube channel that's how we became very close we were running a lot of different athlete youtube channels at one point and so we became really close to paul that's how we met and he had the best head on his shoulder for like media how do you build a brand how do you you know he had the biggest he's he was called across his first million dollar man he had deals with red bull and new balance and he had created the model for like how do you make money as and was he was he the best and he was the best at media or he was actually the best at media and really good he's he's the he was the best he was the best player he's that's part yeah yeah so i think that those are those like conor mcgregor at one was like he's the champ yes and yeah he's like the most marketable guy so he he decided you know at one point just to say hey you know what we're gonna go raise money and create our own league like this league sucks that i plan that's what he did he turned to joe ty who's the nets owner you know yeah nets owner who played lac lacrosse in college and loves la lacrosse right and it's a great dude met him a couple times and he became the the lead investor and then they partnered with with rain group and yeah raise a bunch of money and said we're gonna pay the players of reasonable salary we're give them equity in the league we're gonna give them health care and we are going to create media around them we're gonna create media opportunities for them gonna teach them how to you know and the last thing that they did is was they said we're not gonna stick these teams in local markets we're gonna actually take the whole league on tour makes sense so they they that makes more sense it's like a touring you know circus where it's like is it coming to san diego this weekend okay everyone defense of major major market yeah so you you know if you have across people they come to town twice a year exactly got we'll go to that that we may not go all the time or they may not be able that people to support a stadium i think also what he knew and what what we saw was that the model in la lacrosse and when you made money was by doing camps and clinics right so you you you have youth camps right like there's a lot young kids who wanna play that come from affluent backgrounds their parents are willing to pay a thousand dollars for them to get coached by their favorite lacrosse player and paul built a massive camps business and so alongside this you go to a major market now you have a weekend dedicated to you can have camps you can turn all these players into okay cam counselors and and trainers earn extra money exactly they can build their own the bespoke businesses but that all you know connect to the league and that's so he he him and his brother are really sharp so and they didn't come mail franchises yet not yet yeah and they bar was involved in one of them okay they they got to name the expansion team and cool part of my take like they're the owners what's they name it the water dogs i think the ridiculous name yeah but like they you know there's that that creates a kind of that that inside joke with the part of pm community that it's like they have their own teams smart it's a collab lab it's collab a collab yeah because when they play big cats tweeting about it when they they won the championship last year he got his own ring you know it's like amazing they they're able to build again they're very media savvy and so they they understand that this a long game lac lacrosse is not well to build any lee i think it texted you this during the event i was like i think what this guy saying is actually quite smart we should look at investing and i go i'll man building a league is hard like fun if we do is that is like one of the hardest games you could play in the world entrepreneurship is creating a a sports league from scratch because it's like kind of a twenty year arc actually get there you have to have such a long view on the world and how their life to do it and you're doing live events you're doing they're all the hardest things i mean every weekend he's in a different study you know i'm watching these and and looking the the most promising thing is look how young the kids are who are there right right so if they show up with this league these teams these franchises like they are playing a very long game here and i credit them to for doing it but it's it's not an easy thing they signed like a ten million dollar deals on with espn like espn yeah yeah the the media rights deal that's good yeah so when they first started colin and i made a documentary about them for nbc that's right we've have like we made many different lives of you know colin and sami mirror but yeah that's amazing do you think that's gonna be you know good investment for you where you like the first one in because he's like you're buddy i was first one in which is great so good yeah yeah yeah yeah it's i i'm having that fair like like you're gonna get like unit let's say this works out hopefully like you know like we we all we're rooting for this like you're gonna make a bunch of money from this thing that was so impossible to predict but that's how this whole thing would pay it's like right mom i know yeah i don't have health insurance and i'm a job mh i know i'm kinda of filming this like failing lead i you're like this there's like cross thing it's like and it leads to the thing so it's a steve jobs call i mean look back you see all the dots how they connected but like you go even who further back like and the way this happened was my first idea when i was twenty one was to just set up a laptop and make youtube videos about la lacrosse accommodating right like i was a bad idea when you really know you zoom out but if you're into it like a lot of creators asking me like how long does it take to make it on youtube like how long does it take to make it i'm sure entrepreneurs asked that question too right or have that thought in their head like how long is this gonna take and i was like i was thinking it's such a ridiculous question because i'm like well what's your relationship to making videos do you wake up every morning and it's you can't not do it like you're just like all i can do is make money than you made it then then they yeah you you made it and it will there will be an outcome from that there will be it will lead you somewhere but if you wake up and you're like this sucks it's kinda what you were saying like i'm doing x so i can get to y well the the entrepreneurs version is startups fail but founders don't so like i moved to san francisco in twenty twelve so that's ten years ago it's and i met a bunch of people and we used to have like these like underground fashion founder like meetings where we're like trading tips and tricks and being like you what do i do this person i need to fire them what do i say when i fired like basically is a bunch ceos being like i can't like tell my team about this i can't tell my customers about this i can't tell my investors about this i can only tell you guys yeah because you guys understand and look unlike youtube everybody who was doing starbucks so i was like all living in the same seven mile radius city and so we would just solve me up all the time and sure enough like as you watch if you track that cohort is basically only two outcomes one is got so burnt out from like the grind and failure that they just stopped after like you know three four years more in five years they just like did that current company they're like screw this i'm taking a job i'm moving back to connecticut and like i'm gonna live in a low cost place i'm gonna stress and i'm gonna do that but everybody else who stayed in the game one like literally like almost like a hundred percent of my friends who stayed in the game yeah and some of them one in year two someone in your five someone in your nine now we're in like you're eleven or twelve yeah we're winning like now but like and it's kinda like it feels like a real i'm like wow twelve years it's like yeah but we all started this when we were twenty one so like you know yeah okay we're mid thirties yeah for us we're thirty four rich like you know what it worked in the way they worked right the fifteen year arc you get like a then the odds flip from like ninety percent of new business failed actually like ninety percent of you guys will succeed if you actually enjoy this enough where you'll keep doing this even know you have easier options yes i always i i've said that multiple times whenever i'm having something that feels like i'm i'm struggling i'm like this is the the the least rational path to making money right is what i do the i at this point also now i have enough exposure and enough of an abundance in my network that i can go and get the a good job right but like i do this because it's it's just what i do it's just who i am i don't even know what to do in another context i what that looks like i i will say though like being it it's hard to be not outcome oriented you know like i think as an entrepreneur you think about like exits and you think about you know like these big payday and i would say that even with with our newsletter like when i saw milk road i was like i want that outcome too but whenever i get too attached to that i'm like okay wait a second right that that's like that's creating in a way that's just like right the product probably will not be great if i don't just put my head down and go okay okay it's monday this monday issue really great okay it's wednesday it's this wednesday issue really great and i've really tried to refine my focus on process and impact like is i i have to focus on the process of creating the thing and then the second thing is like my a lot of my reward is seeing if we having impact is is this actually impactful what i'm putting out right or is it just going out and you know no one's saying anything about it or we're not getting any like i i find i gauge the success of our stuff from like the text i get or the dms or like hey that episode was really impactful or hey that really changed the way i think about this or hey that newsletter taught me about this if i see those then i'm like we're doing we're we're doing something let's keep doing that hopefully that takes us to an outcome as you also have to accept it might not it might just be this and we might just get you know five percent better you know over the next two years right and and and that's it and you to accept that that is a that is the maybe the most likely reality is that you just keep doing it right and as long as you can accept that at least for me that's how i i you know explore it for myself yeah the best test of a project is basically would we regret doing it if it didn't work right like obviously we don't want it not to work and we might be upset if it didn't work but like would we actually regret doing it if it didn't work because then it's like oh i'm just actually dependent on the success failure of what's usually a low odds of success endeavor totally whereas other things are like that wouldn't really regret it because like well i'm still gonna get this like still gonna be fun to do still gonna learn a ton i'm like this is the type of thing i like to do yeah so you know if this doesn't work out it doesn't really matter like i'm just gonna ping pong to the kind of the next version this but it was a forward it was a forward step either way right yeah this is like tony robbins does this thing where he does this dabble versus masters i don't know you ever heard this so he's it tells a story at his events where he goes he goes there's some people that they go and they discover racket ball which maybe now pickle ball would be but it's like you know they go they go to the gym they're like they see somebody think racket they're like oh try it and they go and they have they had some fun i they're like i a f ball that this might be my thing and they're like okay i'm gonna play ra and so they the next day they come back play in next day they actually go and they you know they get better shoes because they were like oh that was the problem last time they buy the racket they're start playing blah blah they they they're doing well but then they play somebody who's been playing for like ten years who's like way better of them and that's you know for three days straight they're playing and they can't hit a good shot everything's going off and they're losing all these games and they're like this stupid like stupid rag ball like right my my mind this box i'm trapped like you know this is it's too loud in here this it is you literally this is this is sport for old people you start to find all these reasons to quit so they they they quit like i'm gonna play real game i'm gonna go play tennis to go outside you play tennis you're like oh so much better on my doors this is way better and you know you're they're hitting the ball around they're start to learn the strokes that they're enjoying learning a little bit same thing happens they start to play somebody who knows what's going on to they're hitting the ball and the net they can't really serve well and it's it's getting frustrated it's hot out and they're like stupid game like you don't wanna this thing i like this is this it's like a girly game i i don't wanna play i don't play like a real game and golf and rather like just fuck from they more than the fuck and he's basically like you know most people go through their whole life doing a series of these dabbling yeah they're dabble and he's like what's the difference between a mask there's like there's three categories a dabble a dabble basically like try it as soon as it gets hard bounce they like then there's the stress achieve stress achieve is like when it gets hard they just start grit their teeth and they just gonna keep going but they don't enjoy any of it mh and like all the hardship stresses them out but they've just been trained since they're a little kid they're like push through it just keep pushing through and like you'll get a gold star later like the the joy will be later he's like then there's the master and the master they say like they're like they know that when you start something new there's the initial like joy of discovery there's the learning curve there's the hard plateau and when the plateau comes they greet it like an old friend like oh there you are like i thought you'd be showing up soon i've been right i've been playing for a week and usually that's when i'll hit that's when you arrived plateau and i know how to like deal with you because i know that after the plateau comes the next up uprising and i'm i'm excited for that ups swing but yeah let me work through this plateau they don't really get like flustered by him so they get the same or they get better results than all three way better than their dabble significantly better than the stress retriever but the difference is like the whole way they're kind of actually like enjoying the the dance are playing the game yeah because they actually understand that this is like these are all normal for the game mh and you find that like the people who get really like into like struggling or grinding or like get really overwhelmed by like you know the adversity it's really just like they haven't played the game enough to know that this is no this is how the levels of the game work yeah you shouldn't be surprised that the roller coasters is going up and now like yeah you remember you got on the you got in line to get on a roller coaster right that's good point that you know one thing that i don't know why this made me think about it i think just because like the the ups and downs of the game and the the conversation we're having in the beginning of the show about interviewing one thing that both colin and i did was go to improv class to learn how to be to get better yeah just to get better at like being present working with whatever the other person says like what what we found was my wife was listening to our interviews and she was like you're not listening to them you're just not listening to your guests they're saying something and then you say something completely different you're just waiting just waiting to talk and so i went to improv class and it it was really this incredible lesson in the craft of how do you sit in the pocket and just be like i can't have any pre notions as to where this is about to go right you're gonna say something and i have to let go of where i want it to go right i found myself in the first day of improv i was like we were playing this game and i was like okay i know exactly how to make this funny this is gonna be funny i know where to take it and then the person right before me he said to something and i was like why the hell would you say that and then i had to deal with it and then i like oh this is the work right this is the craft or building the craft and i think you know in in in the the roller coaster of being a podcast like you have to be willing to do all of that in public as well right right like you you you go back and you watch your early episodes that roller coaster is there's a record of the roller coaster of like times where it was going really well times where it wasn't going well times where reviews were up times where reviews were down it's like all public and i think it's it's challenging because we have to practice in public i think that's like as as you know you build in public as an entrepreneur have something incredibly just you're like naked as a content creator out there everyone can see everything right so well you guys are doing an amazing job i'm a fan thank you man i look forward to to kinda see if this is your kinda like learning phase then like you know i'm excited to see what what it's like as you guys master this so appreciate thanks for thanks for doing that really appreciate it thank you so much yeah i feel like i could rule to word i know i could be what i want to from at all in it like a day's off on a travel never looking back