Robert Greene almost died. Here’s what it taught him about living

have you ever taken psychedelics have i yeah oh yeah oh yeah i feel like i could rude where i know i could be what i want to on upper from at all in it like a days off on a you wrote this new book sublime and it's interesting because if i look at the books you're popular for your famous for you've got forty eight laws of power power i mean self explanatory it's like a a very masculine is very sort of forceful grab it by the next sort of word if another one control mastery another one about control and it seems like sublime is saying the almost the exact opposite it's about letting go and being small rather than being larger than life i can you explain what the book is and how it's relates to the other books it comes out of personal experience i have to say you know i as a as you probably know i i nearly died eight years ago people are suffering from the narrow of their experience a lot of it coming from technology this something incredible about just simply being alive and so many things about that science is uncovering about the world that we live in is so awesome and so amazing and and we have such hunger for something larger than just the daily struggle and i felt it very deeply in in coming so close to death and how the world looks and feels differently after that experience and i want people to feel something like that in their own lives it's a book where we you don't have to nearly die in order to have and i'm trying to show you how you can bring these kind of experiences into your day to day to day life it's a very practical book on that level but i feel like there's something people are really really really missing a sense of not being connected to other people connected to their environment to the world that we live in and to themselves it's disconnect from themselves and so that's what this book is about it's there's a this funny loo louis ck k bit it's called everything is amazing and nobody is happy and he's on conan i think and he's like talking about how like everything's great but for all miserable and i think it was forty eight laws power i forget which book it was but you there was one story that i might be butchering but i think you said that like some of the first bits of writing ever discovered was about one generation complaining about the next generation saying they're lazy they're they don't get they they're they care about all those new tech analogy like there music stuff real that's like one of the first writings ever is that yeah it's like on a on a on a stone tablet i think it's like ancient babylon or something like that and it it's like one of the oldest pieces of writing and it's complaining about the young generation and well my takeaway when i read that was like it was this really important feature which like everyone thinks something is different with their generation you know we are either better or you'll hear people say all the time they go in this economy what are you talk about it's like well the economy could be booming and everyone will always say and this economy it sucks or they'll always say like well crime these days it's so high it's like no it's actually way lower than ever before but there's something where you wanna like say this period is the worst and my question too you is is that actually true is this time is this time actually different and how do i be happy well it's a very legitimate question and i don't think you can quantify as the problem because you know you look in movies from the twenties and thirties and everybody is smoking and drinking like you can't believe they're like four five whiskey at dinner you know they're having martini left right in center right that is the equivalent in the past of antidepressants right so people were feeling that then most definitely in cigarettes they needed all of these stimulants continuously it's kind of shocking and then in the past you know in england for instance people didn't drink water they drink ale right and to to quench their thirst and so people were continually drunk and on all sorts of things throughout history so it's a very good point how can you compare that to now we have technology on this new level social media on this new level and in some ways it's altering people it's altering our minds it's re wiring our brains in ways that aren't necessarily healthy and this is a new phenomenon so if your experience is coming so much from your phone if you're interacting so many hours of the day with your phone a lot of that is stuff that is if it's on instagram or or x or or tiktok it's being programmed by other people algorithms etcetera it's not your own experience people are telling you what your life should be like they're programming what you see what you feel what you hear this isn't like a human quality we we are animals that that want agency we wanna be able to control something about our own lives i feel like people i have a sense of powerless that they're on this ride that technology is taking them on and particularly with ai the fears that you know we're creating something that we're not gonna have any control over that is the only element that i think is different now that would make me say that there's a level of crisis then maybe didn't exist in the past right but as i said i don't have data to back that up and i could be wrong well we do have first end kind of experience with the way the world around us feels and how it operates you know if we just kinda as a thought experiment i think of of of americans who are like you know of adult age ninety plus percent have a smartphone of people who have a smartphone how many would you say are addicted to their phone meaning they are using it more than they want to and it is in some ways kind of like become the main source of of pleasure in their life is taking a larger and larger chunk of their life i would say that numbers probably also like everyone i know so you have this thing that exists in the world or if if you know somebody came from the past and you're like yeah there's this thing now it's affecting ninety plus percent of people and of the people who have it ninety plus percent of them are addicted to it and then how often they they they take the dosage like seven hours a day you know it's like well what is what is that that is a like a wild state of the union you know just to walk into no you your your point is very valid i know i've told this before another podcast but i have a a special bicycle because i can't hike or anything to coming bike and i got like the lightest weight one i can because we have these incredible hills here and i go way up where there no cars way up into these hills and it's incredibly beautiful and i'm just like whoa this is so therapeutic and then people are walking by me and they're like this you know they're walking in the most spectacular los angeles and this beautiful you know call part nature park park and they're like this right they're talking to somewhere they're like reading something on the instagram while they're walking outside that to me is like mental illness to me because being healthy you have to be observing you have to be connected to your environment you have to be connected to what's around you you know you have set up situational awareness to use a military term you know and that that level of disconnect is very troubling the other thing is i talk about this in my sublime book we're gifted with this brain that is one of the most incredible amazing things in the universe this insane product of evolution the human brain and in in a very short period of time on the scale of evolution forty thousand years we've taken this brain that we evolved with language and look at the world that we've created and that brain operates with certain laws in certain has a certain tendencies it's extremely restless it consumes a lot of our energy physically a lot of our energy right and it wants to learn it wants to conquer things it wants to develop skills and when you have a generations of people that everything is fast and easy and quick you can get things at the tip of your fingertips without any effort it's re wiring the brain's re wiring human nature it's creating people who are spoiled who expect everything to be fast and easy who have no patience to write an essay who have no patience to read a four hundred page book because wow i could just get ai to give me the paragraph on it you know that to me is what scares me is it's very dangerous well i think everyone agrees with you but what's the how do i fix that i mean i'm i'm an addict as well like and you said something called and and so i like sam and yeah i had two have a problem okay right it's like smartphones anonymous here by the way everybody listening to this is listening to this on their phone instead of you know enjoying wherever they're at in the moment but like you had this thing in the book where you talk about like the circle you're like life's a circle and like a lot of technology be on your phone it like shrinks that circle so you're only looking through this small thing and i noticed that we actually did a podcast on like this the feeling of awe and in my opinion i my circle is tiny right now and the only way i'm ever able to like expand it is through travel like being in places or experiencing the emotion of all which for your kids getting your kids to experience all then you you start to notice it too like you know wow i look at this yeah and what i wanna know is like what can i do to to get out of this so i i normally tell people like you only to listen to a few minutes of robert green to realize that all the information that he's getting for his books which are amazing about the way is from reading tons and tons and tons of other books well i tried to do the same as well i read about a book a week i devour books and they've changed my life and so what i did with the hubspot team was they asked me which nine books are shaped my year shaped two thousand twenty six so i put together a list and i also added a whole bunch of information on how i read so much hint i'm not actually a fast reader i just have a methodology for consuming a lot of information and i think also retaining it and so if you wanna see which books have changed my life this year and how i read so much information how i retain it all then click the link below and you can get the guide right now get outside your house go out into nature go out into central park or go out into connecticut somewhere and leave your goddamn damn phone behind lock it in a drawer you can't possibly access it now and you're hopefully with a friend who doesn't it didn't bring their phone along with you so you're forced cold turkey to go out there and what it'll do for you just on that one level is you're gonna have like that addiction sense of well i i need to know what's going on with sports i need to know who won the election i need to know but you can't do it and so your mind is now gotta be focused outward it's gonna be focused on what is around you on the sounds on just the sense of your body moving right like climbing a mountain isn't incredibly it can bring you that sense of awe as you get higher and higher up in the sky and you're forced to interact with things that aren't human where to take you out of your daily little that little small circle and we'll give you that sense of awe i planned originally to write the book i was gonna go travel all over the world and have all these sublime experiences this is before my stroke and then obviously with my stroke i can't do any of that i'm like trapped in this room that you're now see me in where i spent practically seven years writing the book i i had no outlets for doing the things i couldn't travel so i was forced to find it in everything around me in just looking up at the sky just interacting with my pets my animals with my wife just watching people just looking just the sense of being alive and in the book i try and make it clear the things that science is uncovering about the strange of the world that we have been born into you're you're born you're kind of thrown into this world and when you're a child you're three or four years old you don't understand it it looks everything looks strange and you've got that sense of awe and wonder like constantly like a two year old is like whoa what is that what is this what is that color they're just looking at everything you once had that feeling and you've lost it but you can get it back by slowing things down by putting your phone away by doing simple things like taking a walk by just giving yourself some time to be alone and withdrawn to yourself and just reconnect to your body it's a lot of it is putting a lot of that technology away and opening your senses up to the world and each of the chapters in the book i have exercises at the end of the chapter for kind of realizing what i've just talked about so i have a chapter in the book about childhood because as i said when you were a child the world was naturally sublime was i mean unless you had a very troubled childhood don't get me wrong but for most children in the world it's naturally weird strange and won right and i have exercises for how you can recapture the feeling of time that you have when you were a child where wasn't all schedules and past present in future gotta get this done and blah blah blah but to feel of the flow of time within you it's not gonna make you more successful in your job but if you have moments like that where you can spend an hour doing some of these exercises slowing things down feeling just the sense of actually being alive inside your body you will naturally return to something that is more human and that will connect you in some way to the sublime you had this amazing line in your in your book where you're talking about how why chasing things why why we you know adults feel flat inside and there's something about us feels flat so we chase things but then even when you get them you still feel that sense of flatness what why is that because you know it it becomes like an addiction so you you're constantly looking for external stimulation as i said you're born to this word with this restless mind and you ever tried to meditate and and just sit down it on some cushions and kind of empty your brain empty your mind you realize how it's impossible the mind is just going like mile a minute thoughts are just coming left right and center it's in a very very restless organ so we humans need continual stimulation and you can get that stimulation in one of two ways you can get it externally and nowadays that is the source of possibly our problems you know if you born you want entertainment two seconds flat you get something on netflix you get something streaming watch it on your phone you know you don't have to you have to do anything to get this kind of external stimulation that you that you crave right and you get it and then it leaves you kind of empty because now you want more or you want something else right and so you have to find another source of external stimulation even travel can get like that if you know you just bring your own problems to bali for instance and you're sitting on the beach and you're just thinking about your schedules and about your social media and your your your instagram feed you're you just bringing your problems with you and then you come back to to your job wherever and you're back to your nervous self you know so it can't come from without i mean i i'm saying like when you take your hike you're you're absorbed in the world but that is a sense of something coming from within you that is your own experience and when you do it through your own experience and it could be love of another human being because i have a chapter on love or it could be coming with your connection to an animal or could come through some physical adventure the experience is your own nobody is programming you nobody is telling you what to feel what to think it is yourself and as you go through that the feeling is very exciting and fulfilling and you want more of it's not like this addiction where i need somebody you like this baby that needs constant stimulation from somebody else you can climb a mountain and you can feel not only spiritually uplifted but physically uplifted your body and your mind are responding to these things and you can't get that from your goddamn phone you can't get that feeling of climbing amount i did something difficult ar but i feel wow look at this right there's no there's no experience that could be programmed on your your stupid phone that can ever give you that kind of sensation the best part about your your writing is you find the the best stories which do an even better job of teaching this stuff versus just the theory which is also good can you give some examples of what you're talking about with some cool stories one of the i have a chapter in there i think people are gonna relate to most because it's similar to my other chapters it's called measure yourself against the immense and the impossible and the idea is it's called the dynamic sp and the idea is we humans have powers that we don't even realize that we have if i plug you right now onto a an island in the pacific that's uninhabited and you're alone suddenly you would discover because you had to all of these skills hopefully other you're gonna die that you may have for like finding food sources for making things for building the shelter right we have we're incredibly invent persistent will creatures that's who we are and when we face something that's impossible so difficult something almost superhuman can happen and i tell story and there's a famous story of this plane that crashed in the andes in argentina in nineteen seventy one seventy two with a rugby team from uruguay going to chile and there were like forty five people on the plane and a lot of them died in this crash they crashed at the foot of this incredible fourteen thousand foot pie mountain so they were trapped they had only like their spring clothing because they didn't expect to be trapped in the andes they were just traveling to another city so it's spring clothing they had no equipment they were these young kids that never climbed a mountain before a guardians situation and they were facing death every single day it was horrified they read out of food and so they ended up having to like eat the corpses of some that people who would died already just to stay alive and one of the young men non per he lost his mother and sister in the crash and he was thinking of his father and his father back in uruguay if he died non died and the mother and the sister died the father would die because he was a family that it was whole life and so he goes i've gotta get out of here i've gotta get out of i've got to find a way out of this trap right people had tried to climb in their in their group and they couldn't get halfway up the hill because the altitude would kill them the cold they had no equipment to climb a fourteen thousand foot high mountain in the in the winter in the andes you need you need all these kind of ropes and and in pylons and all sorts of equipment they had nothing he decides i'm gonna get over this mount i don't care what happens i'm gonna i gotta get back to my father and so he chooses two people and they start this climb that two other people are like ready to give up he keeps climbing and climbing the altitude making his heartbeat like crazy but he keeps climbing and climbing he reaches what is close to the summit and it's like the side of a skyscraper it's just pure rock and ice how the i gonna get up that right he just takes he's got like the equivalent of a pick that was built from the the d try of the airplane and he kind of cuts a little bit of a a hole in the ice rock he puts his hand in there he's able to put his foot in there he climbs like for two hours that way because he's so determined he gets to the top and he realizes that he that there's more mounds of surrounding them so now they're gonna have to somehow out get over in another set of mounds there's no way they could do it they don't have food so but then he sees that maybe there's this like gap between the two mountains that could possibly be a way out toward the greenfield fields of tu outside all these mountains and he convince one other person to cope with him on this and first of all then on top of this mountain they spend night they're probably the first humans who've ever seen this the stars and and and at night in this particular location and he's like amid all this suffering and death this world is so beautiful it's such a strange thing anyway climbing down the mountain on the other side is harder than going up because it's the the the steep of it the long story is short they finally get to the bottom they finally find people they finally get rescued and about eighteen of the fifty people on the plane survived and they get a helicopter to go back and rescue the people that they had left behind with the original crash they're like how the hell did you ever get up this mountain experienced climber can never get up this amount how did you do it it's impossible i don't even believe that you did it and so the story to me is about having a sense of purpose like my father the love of my father i have to help get back for him this and facing an impossible situation we put limits on what we think we can do but there are actually no limits you put people in difficult situations that either crush them or they rise to a new let they discover new resources in themselves and that kind of power and that determination to me is what makes the humid animal incredibly incredibly sublime so that's one of the stories that's a great story i kinda messed up i like reading a lot of like world war two and holocaust books and too it's crazy like there's this one called the the escape artists and it's one of the only guys to escape from auschwitz one of the issues i never heard of this it's fantastic i mean it's you know i don't know fantastic as you describe it but it's definitely riveting and he tells the story about how he basically hid under a bunch of dead bodies for many hours and for the three days actually and then he eventually walks across poland and it's like when i read these stories my instinct the i started reading some of these crazy stories because if i ever feel down and depressed i'm like i gotta read this so i know that like life is perfect but it's actually cool to have a different takeaway now reading a bunch of these books where it's more so like i can do anything if visa has to do this surely i could have a difficult conversation well there was a man of victor frank wrote a book man search for meaning very famous book he was in auschwitz he was in concentration cap and his he later became a a psycho and his discovery was that the people who survived that cut of the most awful circumstances were the ones who had some kind of purpose for their life they they had something to get to live for once they got out if they ever got out right they had a book they had to write they had family member they had to save they had some reason for trying to to stay alive and that's what kept them alive let's take a quick break you know that feeling when strategy is done the brief is written everyone's aligned and you realize someone still has to sit down and actually create all the content that someone is usually you and it's due tomorrow well the breeze assistant from hubspot can help it works right inside hubspot you can draft campaign copy blog posts emails all in your brand voice all using your actual customer data so you don't create just content you create content that converts check out hubspot dot com the agent customer platform for growing businesses i'm curious robert do you have a definition for yourself and what your purpose is well it tends to make we seem kind of arrogant and grand eos but what the hell blow it out there anyway i felt like all of the miserable jobs that i had i had sixty different jobs back in the eighties nineties because i an old guy and i was very depressed and very miserable in my mid thirties and no success but i in the back of my mind i'm living for writing because i've always wanted to be a writer hadn't quite given up my dream and then i got a chance i met a man who was the book package you asked me at one point in italy i had the ideas for a book and i kind of improvised with turned into the forty eight laws of power and he ended up paying me to live while i wrote the book and we became partners on the project it felt like to me that all that misery all those bad jobs all that stuff in hollywood that i'd gone through there was a purpose for it and the purpose was for me to be able to write that book that i think call me as i said grand has helped a lot of people deal with very difficult power situations and then i had my near death experience i was driving a car in los angeles my girlfriend now my wife was sitting next to me and she basically saw something going on that was very wrong she called nine when she didn't imp she called nine one one and it was a matter of seconds if they had arrived thirty seconds later or a minute later i'd either be dead or i'd have intense brain damage and so i survived that i'm alive there must be a reason for that there must be reason a purpose behind it and the purpose was for me to write one more large book the sublime despite all the physical limitations that i had and that i i was stay i was kept alive for a reason to write this particular book so and quite honestly without that sense of mission or purpose i would never have made it because it was such a difficult thing to do when you can't type and you have to hand write an entire book so i definitely have had that that those feelings of something larger pushing me forward i i think i i i read a lot i and i've noticed that reading should fall into one of two categories the first one is just entertainment and the second one is education and when i really wanna learn something it's most people tend to get ten books on the same topic and they think that's gonna master it and what i have found it's probably better to get one cornerstone piece and reread it multiple times and truly master it and i have felt this way you're gonna think of this is two grand some ridiculous i have felt that with forty eight laws of power mastery artist deduction out maybe maybe out of war but for sure it sounds like sublime and forty eight laws of power as well where i was like man i wish i would have dedicated two years to mastering these like four techs because like human nature i'm like this is applicable to everyone why why wouldn't this is the number one thing i should ever learn actually is there a world where this should just be like a two year or one year yep matt like course like a like a college thing where where i'm just going to like master some of your text i mean that exists for i would imagine for machiavelli that probably that exists for some of the great philosophers and psychologists you could take a course on shakespeare and go through all his works right yeah like has anyone ever proposed doing that for robert green books yeah i mean i would have to probably get involved in that because yeah there's a there's a a gap a gulf between the knowledge that's in a book and putting it into practical effect i've consulted with individuals before the problem with a course is if you're i think it would have great value for the forty eight laws of power for instance if in college somebody were to teach that but i don't know where because college isn't supposed to be practice supposed to be teaching you about power is supposed to be teach teaching you about things that are useless that you're never gonna do in your life but i could see of course you know it it would probably have to be like in a business school to be honest with you this is the workload you're going to enter and here's some laws that you're gonna learn that are gonna help you deal with the egos and the politics of people sitting there and it's lesson one or there's like you know a fifteen minute thing that actually stuck with people what do you think that thing would be from the power course what it be i'll always say less than necessary people talk way too much they're always talking and talking talking talking particularly in the year of social media they're just revealing way too much about themselves learn to withdraw power is about absence and presence if you're always present people take you for granted they grow bored with you if you're always absent and you haven't there's nothing to talk about but if you know the dialect between presence to disappear sometimes to not talk to not be there to not be there for like a week or so and then people are starting to talk about you again so i would teach them that that would be by first course the second course the second week would be about egos never outs shine the master know who you're dealing with play the perfect court tier these are the dangers of of people's egos out there and you've gotta be careful and you've gotta not inadvertently offend the wrong person so that would be like the second week or so but how do you apply that to like sean and i or yourself as well i'm looking at your instagram page is awesome you have you have five videos that you posted yesterday they're amazing i follow you how does that apply to people who are trying to like promote promotion you well i'm out there now a lot because of the sublime book but i i disappear for quite a long time and i never ever post about what i had for breakfast or photographs for you know where i've traveled to or you know my cats in the house i only post interviews from podcasts that have information that are practical that are gonna help people you don't know my private life so there's a level of mystery there if i was completely transparent about my private life that i'd be violating a lot of the forty eight laws of power but i know certain things that i've gotta like withhold from public do you guys so you're like you're fan so you you're i was gonna ask you about this guy but i i don't know if he knows about this but if you're a lakers fan you do do you know who josh kushner is he's the new owner of the lakers yeah man josh kushner is interesting a brother of jared so josh kushner is someone who would fit in your book in a variety of ways so basically josh grew up in a very wealthy prominent new york real estate family yeah his father had a fall of grace because he did some messed up stuff and went to prison for it and then jared married ivanka trump it became trump's right hand man very polarizing but josh is he he i believe he's liberal i he's like speaks about it occasionally and he became an investor where at the age of twenty one he was one of instagram first serves and he now is probably the he's probably had the best probably ten year run as a venture capitalist and he is so wealthy now he's probably worth fifteen million dollars he's forty one years old he so is so wealthy he just bought the lakers and josh is interesting because he is a textbook case study on implementing a handful of the laws of power he really doesn't have social media he he is quite silent you know that it dates this beautiful woman but you don't really see him ever take photos he enters with bold nest into certain situations i mean he bought the lakers when he's forty one years old it's a very interesting case study would you agree sean on like how this guy has risen because money when you're investing money's is a commodity so a company whoever take your money has to choose you based off a variety of weird characteristics and the characteristic that he has is this my mistake about them and i think that it's been play i think he knows exactly what he's doing and it's like he's just like playing the game perfectly yeah it it could be a combination of he might be somebody who's not comfortable in the limelight and then he leans into that and he creates a kind of a weird sort of power out of it i get a lot of not a lot but i get some celebrities who come to me whose name i will not mention who say you know robert i've gotta be out there all the time how do i create an era of mystery when social media depends on always having something that people can see and i tell them you know you can disappear for a week it's not gonna kill you and in fact it's gonna to make people wonder why have you where have you gone during that week so i say like beyonce say would disappear for like a year and a half without posting anything at all and then would suddenly emerge with a new record and now she would be out there in that time that she wasn't out there people were going crazy speculating on what's going on in her life and so knowing that you have at some points even if you're a celebrity even if you depend on people's views and likes disappearing for a while and creating some error mystery is absolutely critical because people are are gonna grow tired of you there's an attention economy and if you're flooding them with your image at some point like oh god i'm so sick of that and then somebody else will come along who's like younger and fresher and different and they'll be looking at them so you have to you have to learn how to withdraw sometimes and create that mystery that makes people want to to hear you when you come back given that you've read thousands of history books and you have seen cycles do you have any predictions on what will happen with ai in the next ten years or so it's the same thing as this time is different that energy is is happening right now and people are saying crazy stuff like this is the last machine that will ever need to be built because this will build everything else is do you have any do you have an outlook well i'm i'm a born pe i i i have a a negative bias to my brain and i'm always the one that will raise my hand and say i don't really buy that hype so first of all i think does it deep deep wells of resentment and fear among the a public about ai and that you have that on the bottom like the huge numbers of people and then you have the people at the top who are kind of dominating the field that are kind of controlling this new technology and the people from the bottom can eventually have a very very powerful effect on the evolution of ai in in the sense of politically people are so upset that they demand that there are laws in place that are gonna regulate ai that are gonna put they're gonna limit cap these data centers that people are are getting tired of and so there's an energy in that level of fear on public can actually translate into something very real but on the other hand i mean i know the scenarios of the singularity and it takes over what drives me crazy with these technology these new technologies is that i wrote a whole book laws of human nature about how humans have a dark side irrational grand envy shorts sided this you know on and on and on they're eighteen of them i only missing four self absorption okay when you create a new piece of technology like this it's not like something that's that just comes out of nowhere it's humans that created it and now that dark side of human nature is gonna be able to use this new technology for very very dangerous purposes the levels of fishing and scams that we're now receiving on our phone is mounting every day and just imagine when it's gonna be like in a couple of years you know how criminals are gonna be able to use this for all kinds of nefarious purposes how the information to build a a dirty bomb a biological weapon is at the hands of some crazy person somewhere i don't know where right yes it could cure cancer yes it could cure climate global war i don't know but it could also lead to an apocalypse just as easily so i'm very fearful of that scenario and i'm very afraid of what it's gonna do to the human brain among young people being able to write an essay and read a four hundred page book is absolutely an essential skill in the twenty first century right but you're not developing any mental skills you're not developing any discipline you're not developing the ability to put something on paper and then edit and then change it with your own thoughts an eventually that's gonna catch up to you because you're not gonna be able to ever think on your own you're gonna always be depending on technology to answer every single one of your questions i have fears you know and those are my fears is the dark side human nature takes it over people aren't gonna be having the patience to learn anything anymore and that it's going to create massive amounts of resentment among the masses of people who feel like they have no control over the future of their career why did i study this field why did i become a lawyer the profession of lawyers are gonna be decimated by ai yeah absolutely decimated right why have a lawyer i mean it's actually this is one possible good thing about ai don't deny but you can get any answer you want about some lawyer a legal problem so you'll never need a lawyer anymore we're were were you using it for sublime for research never not once well nowadays if you google something of course question that the little ai box comes up so i should say close eyes scroll past it no no i i'm not i'm not i'm not gonna lie to you occasionally but i never did any like major no research things just like literally bitty things like when did that person die or facts like that but he's like besides the apocalypse mass resentment and the loss of human mental cognition think be great be good yeah i have i had to write in notebooks for the the sublime and i had two notebooks i i'd writing one and then i would rewrite it in another notebook literally rewrite word for word and edit as i'm rewriting it right in the end i probably have a hundred and twenty of those notebooks have you seen that guy who bear crawl to marathon that's like you like that me well like i i think you and ron cher are the two authors that i'd like to read most and whenever i and whenever i get into either one of your books every sentence is is important who had to type that out what did you guys do well so i wrote it in one notebook i another room didn't go back and and rewrite it that way they didn't go back probably four or five times then when it finally seemed decent and not suck because a lot of my first drafts are absolutely awful edited i would dictate it and then i would print it out and hand edit on the paper right and then eventually that's was good enough if i dictate it again and then with one hand i would edit it on the computer because i only had one hand that was available holy shit no wonder it took seven years so a lot of times people at the podcast they'll reach out to me and they're wondering hey same sean how do you meet all these amazing entrepreneurs how do you find all these stories well i have a hack you see i actually have a community called hampton it's a community for entrepreneurs doing at least three million revenue although we do on average something like twenty five million dollars in revenue we have the founders of door of figure of blue shoe all these amazing companies are part of hampton and what's interesting is because of the environment in hampton which frankly is very similar to my first million we have a very unique high trust environment when people apply and go through this bedding process they're putting in groups of like eight or nine other on entrepreneurs and they get real about everything that's going on in their life and in their business and sorta of like when people listen to m they get inspired to come up with new solutions for business that's what happens in real life in hampton it's life changing and so if you're a founder of a startup that is at least three million in revenue and you just wanna go ahead pull forward five or ten years worth of success then check it out the url is join hampton dot com again the url join hampton dot com robert can i i ask you a question you you had a near death experience you hung out and wrote a book with fifty cent who had this kinda near death experience there was a guy who came on the podcast that was he had studied a lot of people who had near death experiences i think there's books written where you know somebody dies for fifteen minutes and they come back and you wanna know what'd you see what was it have you kind of looked at that and what what i have it what would i find if i go talk to people or go read about people who've had near death experiences what do what what do you find i have the last chapter of this sublime book is about the death sublime and i go into near death experiences and i describe four of them because the literature literally since the nineteen sixties and and and advances in medicine millions of people have had near death experiences so we have all of this data on them it runs a gamut so eighty five percent more or less of near death experiences are actually quite positive you feel uplifted you feel like not just that you were grateful to be alive but that death isn't something horrible there's something peaceful and and beautiful about the experience your eyes were opened to a different way of perceiving the world fifteen percent or so i don't quote me on the exact number are hell ish experiences of near death experiences where it's absolutely a nightmare and you're so grateful that you got out of it so there's there's a game that you can't out completely generalize some people have like religious experiences where they see angels where the presence of god is there where they go through their whole life's history is recounted in the matter of of seconds you know things like that and in among that group is very interesting there'll be people who are hardcore atheists and rational like richard dock type who suddenly come out of it and now they believe in god and now they believe that there is an life it is very strange literature to read a lot of this some people don't go that direction they still remain kind of skeptical but something strange has happened to them and they'll never be the same there's a very great book i enjoyed a lot but by a skeptic and i'm not a skeptic but i like reading all the different aspects this book called dying to live by this woman i think it's susan black words their name she's a neuroscientist scientist and she tries to explain where all of these things happen like you have visions of a tunnel and light coming through and you you really have your whole lives past she explains it as something strange happening to the human brain as it's dying right and it's scrambling how you normally perceive the world how you normally experience time and all these other things and so the brain dying has a very powerful effect on you and that i think is is the most the most i can generalize about it because it happened to me that strange things are going on neurological and physiological as the brain is beginning to die as it's preparing you for it and you have you can have visions you can have sensations they're impossible to describe but they make you aware of the fact that your brain constructs the world that you see you don't realize that is it isn't reality what you're experiencing right now your brain is constructing what you consider to be reality and when the brain is dying that reality that it's been constructing for you throughout your whole life breaks down and now you're actually seeing things as they as they are without the brain meddling in this that's to me the most fascinating aspect of the near death experience has it worn off definitely worn off but it comes back it keeps coming back so i had sensations of my bones dissolving and a weird taste in my mouth and kind of strange things with light ponder times like it comes back in in a sensation like wow it's there and i can access it when i first woke up for my coma the sky looked different to me and in california los angeles we have like insanely blue sky it's just that's one of those beautiful things about here but the sky was even more bluer than i've ever seen it before it was like it was like death like on fire and i can still get i could still see that because it's it's it's it's it it's like buried deep in my in my unconscious and i still feel it and i can still see it so these sensations come back to me in waves sometimes it can be months that i don't and i gets little depressing but because i take psychedelics a little bit yeah yeah a little bit have you ever taken psychedelics have yeah oh yeah oh yeah is it similar it is in some way but you know when you have like a very powerful like lsd or something you kind of i think you're like almost el things you're seeing things that aren't really there you're seeing colors and waves of light that i don't i can't necessarily say are actually there when i'm not on lsd right but when i'm seeing the sky this way i believe that i'm actually seeing what it looks like when you actually stare at it and look at it and without the brain and without the familiar film that the brain puts over everything you see i believe it's actually i've actually seeing what things are but there are some similarities there is so like you know they have demonstrated the effect of psychedelics on the brain and it kind of removes that filter that makes everything look so familiar to you well did it make you fearful are you afraid to die now i mean i think it's impossible for a human being not to have that fear because it's it's part of of of our life instinct but no i i i i'm i'm i'm kind of not really afraid of it it's sometimes i almost like urine for the for the piece that it that it represented because of your experience or because you were yeah wow yeah of course i i go back and forth but i had a a feeling of like deep deep connection to something and when you feel like you're connected to something greater than yourself then it takes a little bit of the sting out of the fear of dying i don't think i'll ever lose that fear because it's it's inherent to every living creature but it it it's been it's been kind of soften the blows softened by what i experienced i don't fear nearly as much that's crazy you you almost makes like having a stroke sound envy nba like no no no no no no i don't go there because it's you know like you have cancer like i had a friend who had cancer he completely recovered and now he's like walking and do those other things like jesus christ i wish i had cancer then your people with heart attacks and they recovered and then they're with the stroke you don't recover you don't get back your laying you can't hike you can't walk you can't swim i would not wish this on my worst enemy i'm sorry but i mean it has its positive elements as i mentioned in my book but i please police said don't have a stroke loaded think back i'm curious as a guy who studied you know have spent decades of your life studying both people who have executed the ideas as well as the core ideas themselves of power of s deduction of mastery of all these things and then you get a chance to work with this scott tim ryan and you know obviously he didn't become president so you know did you go in and believe that hey these tools these ideas affect you could actually do this and were you humbled in some way i'm just curious what what you make of that well first of all i didn't work for his presidential campaign we cut we've been contacted through texting and then we've met several times and it was more after he he lost that and he ran for senate in ohio and lost to jd vance of all people and so you know we were kind of in in that period i was talking to him a lot and we were we were just responded about the return of trump and what it would mean and the corruption and the cruelty and what was happening to the americans soul we were deeply deeply upset about it and so i didn't really think that it was an attempt at a particular election because he wasn't running for office anymore he was trying to create some kind of committee or group and he had he had republicans in that group like steve schmidt and so it was kind of a across you know it it it crossed a party boundaries and it was a look at at you know how can we rebuild this country and you know it didn't amount to anything i can't say we had any effect although we started a conversation that maybe be in some way ripple out and spread somewhere but when i hear what tyler rico was saying last night in all off and roy cooper in north carolina and so many so many i was really amazed at how many women are now gonna be in the senate in the house that represented which i think is a very very positive thing but there's so many people who are articulating ideas that we were discussing so i can't say i had any effect i i i really don't think i did but we were trying to widen in the conversation why the vision beyond just because democrats what's the doing of democrats is they just give a laundry list of policies we're gonna do this with healthcare we're gonna do this with gasoline prices yeah it's important if affordability is a very important issue but there's gotta be something else there's gotta be something a little bore kind of mythic i'd have to say that kind of a crosses party boundaries and that's sort of what we were discussing can you actually elaborate on the mythic thing because i actually totally agree with you where there's this like genes croix there's this like thing with certain leaders where half the time i'm like you know i don't actually know what they stood for but there's something about that guy that i wanna like get behind you and sean was actually talking about that and a little jfk to me was a little bit like that when it comes to great leadership what are the qualities necessary to have that mythic that mythic ability where people are willing to follow you because you have this special thing that most people can't verbal well we haven't had a leader like that in a long time so it's almost hard to visualize i it comes from a different ideological angle than i do but reagan have a little bit of that he had the kind of folks us and he was trying to appeal to a larger vision of america a lot of it was looking back towards the fifties but not completely the thing about jfk is you're you're right to talk about charisma i heard you earlier it is an extremely important component in the in the in the media age with social media with television you have to have that kind of presence before the camera and kennedy was the very first president who actually used the medium of the television in a very very powerful way he was obsessed with hollywood and he had decided that he was gonna be like that actor montgomery cliff in one of there's john wayne john ford movies he kind of modeled himself on that the kind of cool the kind of cool charisma he was like the new sheriff in town and he wanted to see how he could kind of ex dude charisma for the for the cat television camera and he had that very famous debate with nixon in which people who heard it on the radio thought nixon crushed him who people watched on television thought kennedy crushed him because he was like nixon was all sweaty and my sweaty his makeup was well he have like it's like a halloween figure that kind of element where you you kind of create something a little bit larger than life where you're you're something something mythic as i say appearing and what is the myth of america well to me what made america grade was how we're we're builders we create them we're practical people we're not ideological we're practical we like to build things we like to make things and that's always been our genius and to go back to that kind of vision of of individuals who are rugged who aren't just so weak and are always complaining but know who who have that kind of i guess pioneer spirit to me that is the american myth and we've completely lost it in the age nowadays where everything is so easy and fast and people have no patience for making anything and so a lot of people are rebelling against that and i think that kind of sense of and i talk a lot about it actually in my new book the sublime is is going back to things of the past and going back to who we actually are what our spirit is is to me a way to kind of connect to what i consider the that american myth you see it a lot in sports you know you may not see the most charismatic people in politics necessarily but as a sports fan you there's these people that just seem to rally or moments or leaders that like emerge in different things sometimes it's coaches that have an aura and aura is like something people say a lot what is aura aura is basically nonverbal charisma it's it's it's without even having to do anything it's just bare and you know every athlete eventually gets old and you know it ends so it doesn't last forever but there are these eras like sam and i are both fans of u seen and mma there was a a window of time where conor mcgregor went from this guy who was a plumber living on welfare but almost spoken to existence in a mythical way in fact he nick they himself mystic mac because he would say i you know predict these things and he would you know he carried himself with such himself believes that he began you know you didn't even have to care about fighting or ireland or any of those things because the guy stood for a different concept which was self belief the guy believed in himself and bet on himself more than anyone you'd ever seen bet on themselves and so that was really inspiring to a lot of people during that era and there's is this famous tweet that ja brown did years ago four years ago the celtic were struggling and jail and brown didn't go talk about x's and o's and policies and what they're gonna do to to make changes and he just said the energy is about to shift and he tweeted that as was a famous sweet they're the most winning his team since they did that this is like a years ago and they just went on this run they went to the finals and they won the championship and like all these things happened over the next era but it but people who almost can simplify in a way i think one of your laws of powers speak less and one of the things that you do is like you don't over explain how it's all gonna happen you just simply with certainty assert that the energy is about to shift and that's kind of mythical in a way yeah were you talking to a die lakers fan here so me too me too yeah hate alright i hated that the energy shifted that's alright no i can appreciate what the celtic yeah sports has that definitely for sure but the the great thing about sports because i'm a i'm a sports fan is you know as they used to say score it's like you win and you you know there's no denying there's no crime there's no saying you know you you shouldn't you cheated or whatever and so there's clear cut winners and losers the problem in in american business and politics there's a lot of people rise to the top who don't really deserve to be there there are no metrics for determining why they are where they are as opposed to sports where you can pretty much look at statistics i you know i thought phil jackson and kind of embodied that so in in the art of deduction i tried to literally kind of find charisma because as you say it's kind of is this intangible thing and how do you actually describe or where does it come from and in the research that i did you will find a very interesting phenomenon about a huge percentage of people that we would consider charismatic come from very troubled backgrounds they had very difficult childhood they were either abused or abandoned where orphan had very very difficult childhood and so their whole life their whole sense of getting power and love was through the camera was through the public they ema this need to appeal to the public to get the kind of attention they never got from their family or their parents and so they're very outer directed and the other thing is a quality that's very charismatic is to have this kind of inner intensity a lot of it is can be anger because that's a very powerful powerful emotion but could be love or something like that but you don't have to say anything you don't have to say a word you don't have to say exactly how you feel but people can read it in your face your whole face is lit up with this intense emotion that's inside of you that's driving your gestures your tone of voice all the nonverbal things and it's read through the public as here's someone b brim over with this confidence and this inner power that they they don't need to have to say anything but it's it's there it's in that aura that you mentioned mh can you teach someone to be more charismatic and what would you teach them well confidence is by far the most charismatic quality that you could have as you may know i spent six seven months with fifty cent writing the fiftieth law in my fourth book and fifty has intense charisma and his charisma comes from this incredible sense of confidence and inner strength and where did that confidence come from you know so many people from his background in south side queens never made that they don't have it the difference is he had this near death experience that kind of transformed him and what are you gonna be afraid of after you've got shot nine times at close range through a car window you're not gonna be afraid of anything shit man i survived that you know you can't kill me and so that sense of calm and confidence that he had to me is very charismatic as matter can you teach it well you can't teach people coming from troubled backgrounds but you can't have a sense of your attention is outer directed because as i said it's it's a it's a quotient of of confidence you can't fake confidence you can but people will read through it because it comes just as b honor it has sort of an emptiness to it but if you feel inward very secure and you're kind of on fire with some idea or some cause that's important to you and you kind of ex exclude that confidence that i'm talking about it will communicate as charisma may not be on the level of a kennedy or a malcolm x so i think with exe exemplified charisma or a marilyn mon monroe but it will have some of that power to to it so it's teachable to that degree but the really truly powerful charismatic people like a churchill hill etcetera the kind of creatures of certain circumstances but all the people except for marilyn monroe all the people that you mentioned malcolm acts church hill jfk one was leading america to space one was trying to save england from nazi germany the other one was trying was fighting for black rights those are all the the the to to play the devil's those are all like the easiest causes ever to rally behind and say i'm gonna dedicate my life to this so do you find a i i i i'm sorry but i disagree with that great that i i'm i'm i'm prodding here on purpose but like oh is the prime example he came from a very bad family back around he was mostly pretty much abandoned and he was felt completely un untouched and for years he was in the wilderness he during world war one he had the gall campaign which was a disaster and he was a man that suffered deeply from bout of depression okay and so when world war two came about and when hitler rose to power all the qualities that he had were had that hit that would make him charismatic were kind of dormant in him and they just came to life in that particular moment because he had suffered so much politically in his life as well that he was key rise at the moment he had learned so many valuable lessons so he wasn't just a creature of hitler because there were a lot of english leaders at the time like chamberlain who completely failed in that role there was something about him that was that was different that came from within what i'm saying is are these people were they did they become great like does it if i wanted to be more confident would it be because i was i am a confident human where i found a cause that was worthy of me becoming that well having a cause it is extremely important for to to have that because as i said it kind of creates this radiant thing ema from you that that's that's very very powerful but you have to be able to embody that cause and it has to not be something that's just that doesn't seem opportunistic like so you know obviously malcolm x was was in prison he was a a a hustle or a drug dealer and in prison he discovers the prison library which was his salvation he discovers books and the power and he researches the history of of african american oppression in this country and it comes from within this anger he had tremendous feelings of anger for all that he'd been through in the prison system growing up in boston tremendous wells of anger and now he was able to draw on this using all that he had learned from history so it wasn't like he was an opportunistic that simply gl on to the to the cause of fighting for for african american rights it was something deep within him churchill there was something deep within him i bring up marilyn mon monroe because it's not a cause it doesn't necessarily have to be a cause but because it is a quality that actors and people in the limelight can can ex zoo and in her case she was an orphan who never really knew her parents but who had this tremendous desire hunger for love and the only way she could get love was from the public was from the camera was from kind of creating this this neediness in the camera that she wants is drawing your attention in drawing your love is the quality that a lot of actors can have and it's something that some have learned but in her case it once again it was a lot a function of really of where she came from can i you you know charisma when somebody says charisma i think that's a good thing i want more of that and what you're saying is two things you said well the by far the most charismatic trait is confidence that's an internal thing security internally but then you're saying that a lot of these most charismatic people that you studied because of their upbringing they have this outer orientation they crave the love of others and it pulls them towards this like highly external validation seeking path and in that way charisma almost in these highly charismatic people almost seem broken and almost was like i wouldn't want that actually that sounds like a a negative thing and i shared on this podcast recently that i i heard this coach you did this personality test on me and he and i scored extremely high like all of my things were really low and was one bar that was like a hundred and i was like what is that and it was narcissist i was like oh no the worst i'm a narcissist that there's no redeeming trick part about a narcissist and he said well the way that that what it means in this to this or orientation was that you get very you you believe there's something special about you you maybe can't put your finger on it and you look to the world to validate that that's true about you and you you get that and know i'm like oh i guess i do have a podcast that's you know me basically sitting here showing everybody how smart and funny and thing i am i guess that is kinda what's going on every week twice a week so i guess i can't really argue with this idea that like i guess i do seek some of that i get high highs when it's validated and low lows when i'm not seeing a special that is true about me so i guess in that way it's true can you i guess is what i said like does that resonate with your research and what you believe first i mean you know when the attention leaves you when when when the camera isn't following you when you're not in power you're not fighting a hitler you know you you can get very very depressed and obviously marilyn roku committed mid suicide churchill had these i forget his name is black something or others that he would kinda fall into where he just was deeply deeply depressed kennedy you know he he was he have a lot of physical ailments i don't really know because he died he was assassinated when he was quite young but so the idea is you become addicted to the attention into the need to have a public all the time in that can be debilitating but you know a lot of very great people aren't necessarily the nicest people on the planet and that's and they're maybe not necessarily the happiest but they create great things one of my icons in sports was kobe bryant because that guy was set levels of determination and persistence channel a lot of anger that he had from probably from his childhood and you know he was just so fierce on the court and he was probably a difficult person in many ways to be around although i think later in life he kind of mellow a little bit but i think we have to get over this notion that being great and powerful also makes you a wonderful loving kind person because a lot of very creative people in the arts or in politics or in business get very far but they're not the nicest people in the world but so what why does everyone have to be these paragon of virtue steve jobs was raging asshole he was terrible he was the worst manager in the world he learns some lessons later on in life but but he was he was genius at what he did and we we need people like that so we can't just be always looking for the most virtuous saint person and and elevate them because those necessarily aren't people who are gonna get anything done in this world that's awesome is there someone who you look up to where they've checked the checks all the boxes or many of the boxes where you think that they are a great person and also ethical and i admire them for how they treated their family things like that because we have a lot of great people on here and there are very few people who we are like i would trade my out lives with that person or i i admire them as a whole person whereas most people it's like i like that thing i like that thing the rest i don't need that who who do you admire the whole of or who who was the outlier that accomplished the greatness but was a great being as well well i mean it's kind of personal but i my former men ryan holiday i i very much admire him because he's incredibly successful he's he's built this empire he's a a a very decent good person he is he's has raising a family's he's a great father and i used i got him to be my researcher because i saw that he had like a really good character and so you lie that character was someone who's very smart and ambitious and you've got a really kind of great person i've been i've been blessed to be friends with an nba basketball coach i hope he doesn't mind me mentioning a mark dag of the og oklahoma city thunder they won a championship and two years ago and the thing about mark was he's very young he was in the he was a gee league coach for the oklahoma city thunder gee league team he was very successful there and then he gets offered the head coaching job which she wasn't really silly wanting because he had a really good job and to be an nba coach you have no idea because i've talked to him how insanely stressful that is imagine having to lead fifteen men young men who are making incredible amounts of money who have their egos who have their needs who want all of this attention who wanna be stars who are thinking of their future you have to mel them into a team and he had like three or four five years where the team sucked and they were like at the bottom of the standings and yet he had faith and he built a system and he's a very high character person he's a very decent person who believes in treating his players well not spoiling them but treating them well and i was so g to see someone like that within a very short period of time reached the pinnacle in sports and winning a championship for a team from oklahoma city you know like okay the lakers they can buy wherever they want but you're know not i don't know anything about mark can you tell me the story what made him special like he he started out young as a gee coach he might have been like thirty or something or thirty one i don't know and he's a strategist so he's very very intelligent and he's always studying he's a student of the game and he pays deep attention to where the game is headed towards and what are the what are the new kind of strategies he can devi so he's been very he's very smart and and he he he's kind of an intellectual type coach in the in in the same stamp as as phil jackson but at the same time he's very empathetic and he he he is able because he's young which helps he's able to identify with his players he wasn't like a a pro he played i believe in the college level don't don't quote me on that so he he wasn't a player that could could bond with his players that way but he was young enough and he had a deep deep empathy he understands the pressures that they have and so you mix that quality of someone who's social who understands human beings who understands human psychology but is also a brilliant strategist he created this new way of playing in the n nba that was unheard of which was all about going for rebound i'm not gonna get into the weeds here but instead he loaded all his players up there to get offensive rebound which was unheard of because it was like your exposing yourself that kind of counter it was the strategy that now most team's employ he was ahead of the game so he's creative he's strategic and he's got human social skills i wrote a book called mastery and it's about mastering your career mastering your profession reaching that level where you almost don't have to think where you just have a sense a finger to feel for what's going on okay but one of the components in mastery that people have to learn is social skills you could be a brilliant at in business or whatever but if you're horrible with people it's gonna neutralize everything so you get somebody with high analytic skills technical skills and you lie that with good social skills you've got a very very powerful person also as i said with somebody with a very good character yeah that's awesome well i i'm glad you came on i like having you on the podcast because oh good yeah you're you're so different than everybody else that we have on the podcast and well many ways your pace is different oh yeah that's the like the first thing because you know people bring an energy into the podcast before they bring information i think you bring a different pace of presence like a gift of presence like i yeah i don't feel like you're anywhere else but here when you're doing this and that's like something i wanna do more of and be more like i think also you know a lot of people come on the pot podcast are helping you be successful but at a certain surface level of life right it's successful in your work successful in your business successful in your your job but you kind of go you know tap on the shoulder like hey come come down a few levels there's more to the game than just that it's a different sort of it's life wisdom it's not just sport wisdom and i think that the life wisdom especially this book this book is interesting to me because i feel like my honest thing was like i feel like nobody even says the word sublime i don't think there's anybody out there like if the tam of people who were searching for a book on sublime is zero maybe maybe maybe three you know and they all work for you and so i think that it's maze i i one thing i respect as a artist and also just as a man who just decides like this matters to me and therefore that's enough that's something i kind of wish i had more courage of in my life i think there's always a a voice in my head that's looking for the well the guarantee of some good result if i do all this work if i hand write this book for years and transcribe it from notebook to notebook to edit it like i would wish that there's like a a clear pot of gold at the end of that rainbow and i just really respect that you did it because you just felt like you were called to do it there's an artistic courage to doing what you do that i envy and i want and i you know so i admire that that part about what you're doing yeah i mean it's it's a lot of something people gonna be disappointed because they want the forty eight laws power part two i understand that it's not the most sell subject but my strategy is he write a good book you put all of effort into you have interesting ideas you try and do something that hasn't been done before and you will find your audience and if you don't then then scream it's their fault it's not my fault so oh it's my attitude there there was a we i did a podcast with with the music music artist stuff mike pos and he has his great line which is because his first songs were mega hits it was like i took a pill ibiza and cooler to me so he went like triple platinum then his second record was double platinum kind of little this single and then it was like no platinum and then he got she the the record label was paying him and owned his life but didn't even want to pay to produce the music over years he wrote songs that then would become justin bieber hit or somebody else hit and he was just sitting there not like not even out there and he talked as he went through the whole thing and he came out the other side and he's back to having fun making music he was like he's kinda guiding like words that he said that stuck with me he goes i just make what's cool to me and sometimes the whole world agrees and that was enough for him and i just thought i really love that i think that's just like such a better attitude than i think the default mode that most people have when they wanna go make hits well you you you either have one or two paths you can do you could write for what the market says will be the most marketable and lucrative or you can write for what will satisfy you and and what you need to express now if i believe that if you do something that you need to express and you feel very deeply like it's something i have to communicate and a lot of books are written nowadays that don't have that i believe that sense the purpose behind them if you have a reason for writing or or creating music it will find an audience because the level of excitement and pleasure you feel will translate to the listeners i believe maybe you won't go triple platinum but you'll go probably platinum or something like that so that's always been my guiding philosophy to listen to myself and as i'm listening to myself to then think about my readers and how i'm gonna connect to them on using the subject of the sublime kind of think well thanks for coming back man we or big fans so i i agree this is always a a nice change of pace and and it sort of feels like we're in a good type of class whenever we talk to you you know you definitely we we almost like mentor vibes and so we appreciate you kinda let us learn from me for a little while well i i i love it i really enjoy it thank you so much for inviting me i i let him i'm very honored that's it that's the pop i feel like got rude wear i know i could be what i want to from at all in it like a days off on a go less travel never looking back alright my friends i have a new podcast for you guys to check out it's called content is profit and it's hosted by luis and ph ka after years of building content teams and frameworks for companies like red bull and orange theory fitness luis and are on a mission to bridge the gap between content and revenue in each episode you're gonna hear from top entrepreneurs and creators and you're gonna hear him share their secrets and strategies to turn their content into profit so you can check out content is profit wherever you get your podcast