"Ocean is the new space" - 7 Wild Ideas for the $3 Trillion Dollar Frontier

that episode was a whirlwind yeah we just recorded with our buddy willow o'brien this episode was like my favorite conversations living in san francisco where you run into a weirdo who knows a lot about something you know very little about and you get way smart in like forty five minutes your mind gets blown like five times and you just get smarter so this is a get smarter episode for me and it wasn't just about like the business and the ideas that he talked about but the mindset and how we thought about just like the philosophy of life that i was inspired by yeah exactly so okay what are we talking about we're talking about how the ocean is the new space how there's companies like spacex and blue origin all these companies that are doing cool shit in space he knows a lot about companies that are doing cool things in the ocean which is something i honestly didn't know anything about going in now i'm pretty fascinated with but then we talked about the conversation toward the end gets is really fun conspiracy theories why conspiracy theorists make for great founders his summer living with monks in into nepal and what he took out of that it was the end is really good so get there to the end i promise you you will enjoy this episode i feel like got rude where know i could be what i want to from at all in it like a days off on a goal less travel never what's up we got our friend will o'brien here and will is an irish guy who talks my ear off about the ocean and i honestly wasn't thinking about the ocean at all until i saw maybe a tweet of yours which was basically saying the ocean is the new space and how there's companies like spacex and others that have built huge hundred billion dollar plus companies about exploring space about putting satellites in space about reusable rockets and that there's an opportunity for a similar wave of of disruption for startups in the ocean and i love that idea i honestly i'm never gonna do it so i'll just put that offer i'm never gonna do something like that i think ninety nine point nine percent of people listening to this we'll also never go do that thing but just from a i don't know just as a fan of the game just as a founder i kinda love the the theory and the the intellectual i idea here of what is the opportunity and then if you're one of the rare few hardcore founders that can go do this you know this is gonna be right up your alley so that's my interest in it sam i'm curious from your perspective are you the same as me dude i won't even go on a cruise ship like like i was at a party the other day and the the the like want liner or the ice maker was what something you're deathly afraid of to me it's being in the ocean to where i can't see land so like i'm not even gonna be out there but yeah i i i agree with your premise and will did i kinda of frame your argument right as to like the potential that you see as far as you know the business opportunity of of building startups that are are focused on on the ocean yeah yeah absolutely yeah the framing is like you know something like this it's like you know you know everyone is like here standing on earth like looking looking towards the stars and and and absolutely we we you know we should be doing that we should be going like you know full pedal with like trying to go inter plan trying to put a base on the moon and take you know take the take the dark out of the moon and then you know go from there and use that as a lightning and going to go to mars and we should be trying to fly supersonic as well but then look if you're if were trying to build a startup up like you're always asking yourself like where you know what is everyone else looking to do and like what where where is else going and where is like underrated and i suppose you know i grew up by by the seaside side and like the in the this in the southwest of and i've always been obsessed with the ocean if i wasn't like on it in or and europe growing up there was something something wrong in the same way that you're you're afraid some of it and yeah i'm i'm kind of like when i'm when i'm away from it i i feel something around me so i've always been been thinking about it and i mean if you just like look at it in like you know fundamental terms like the ocean economy right now is like already masked it's not like you know the future space economy is gonna be awesome like the the economy is massive if it's like three trillion dollars in like annual spend in different ways right it covers like seventy percent to the pot three billion people rely on it as their primary source of food a billion as their as their primary source of income and then you know while we have like you know robots and mars and you know these like low cost drones going in our skies the technology like in our oceans like still pale in comparison like you know you look at like the ships that are out there today like much of the technologies like very same and similar to like what we had years ago the unmanned you know underwater drones or like you know pretty much like the same as well there like the the kinda key core technology stocks supporting like the the key pillars of the ocean whether it be transport fisheries defense energy you know biodiversity all these areas it's just like it's the same old like stagnant incumbents large deal incumbents offering solutions that you know are eroding on like ancient software there's just like very little innovation going on there it's like you know you you you you ask someone like what is like a sexy ocean start and it's like they're kinda scratching their heads for a bit you know where that you ask about a space it's like spacex straight away it's like you know it's straight away it's like you ask them about aerospace it's like boom so yeah this is like the kind of like the the core of the thesis sean you just wound them up really easily this is gonna be one of the this is gonna be one of those podcasts that we've had we've only had maybe five of them ever where at the end of the hour we are like we're no longer podcasting we're getting into the ocean business yeah like i let's go so sam he's just set a bunch of stats so which of those surprised you so i'm just gonna rattle like elbow back he said alright this one probably doesn't surprise he's seventy percent of the earth is covered in in water i think only twenty five percent has ever been explored he said a billion people rely on the ocean for the primary source of income three billion as their diet explain that what what what's the diet and the jobs one of the income one oh it's just like people are like you know most of them i mean the human societies generally sat along coastlines like this is like very like common trend yeah but i'm new york but i don't eat fish every day yeah but in developed countries it's not as that you you we've developed logistics which means you can go down the street and walk into some sushi bar and get like you know spoof into and probably flew in last night from japan however if you are in you know mo tissue or like soma somalia or something like that this might be a bit more difficult because the systems are not set oh so that's it's important to remember both of the world does not live in you know you know develop countries so yeah most most humans just live along a coastline not surely than easiest for source of food for them to get is fish alright so what we're some other stats sean that caught your eye a billion people rely on it for their income so what are the jobs that you're talking about here so are you're talking about fisheries shipping is it like defense like what is that the are those the big three or am i missing something big and obvious the the framing for me how i think about like the ocean economy is like you generally kinda break it up into like three categories right like you have like the biosphere here right which is like your fisheries it's your ecosystem restoration it's like your environmental mapping it's science in the it's like all around like biosphere fear management then you have like you know the the kind of prosperity oriented part it's like the kinda commercial this is like your energies your infrastructures your oil and gas so you're like data infrastructure you know these sorts of things it's your like logistics shaping and then you have like you know keeping these this disease safe for is like defense defense and security border security critical infrastructure protection deploying ships in this out trying to see these sorts of things and so give me an example of a startup up today that's doing really well as based on this kind of ocean economy that you're talking about yeah i mean i think one player that's like interesting in the online systems space that's been around for for a long time i think over a decade now was really kinda one of the first players start doing interesting new things in the ocean is cell what what problem are they solving what does cell drone do i suppose they are solving the kinda of data gathering at scale in in in the ocean problem they build these like autonomous sailboat these huge vessels they look amazing yeah look awesome they the billy he's like huge vessels a dash massive sailboat that can basically stay see for many many months at a time you can put a load of you know fancy sensors on them you know that can take data from the water that can you know gather video footage at the surface and these sorts of things and then relay them back to someone like in the united states it might be like a state a government agency like noah who wanna know how much fish is in the in in the in the alaska in the seas of alaska they could sell it the us navy to know you know how deep is the waters in and around guam or something like that and then they yeah these sell these things as a service but you know they're a very interesting founder there you know it seems like a super sharp guy who's been obsessed with sailing for decades again like a lot of these ocean vendors that you see they're very very obsessed with the ocean it's the very thing think people very often get obsessed about and then try to make a business out it but what's your what's your business do will what's your ulysses you ulysses these or ulysses you you yeah yeah you use ulysses i ulysses were building a general purpose autonomy platform for for maritime operations say that like you're stupid just like just pretend pretend that we're stupid yeah yeah i know it's hard to believe but just go ahead and dump that down for me but autonomous robots for the ocean to do to do important things okay and what what's one important thing that you would do you would like for example you would go to a pipe in the ocean and determine if it's got hole in it that that is something you could do i our first business line has been working with this weird plant that you've probably never heard of there's this there's a plant in the ocean that's probably about ten times more abundant than coral reefs it is thirty five tons better than rainforest forest removing carbon it supports about it holds about twenty percent of the carbon in the ocean supports a better quarter of the world's most critically important fish stocks and and it's called sea grass it's basically just grass in the ocean and this plant is dying off and insane right all in the world but seven percent last per annum if you follow these trends we lose all our seven percent a year of this thing is going away what why is it dying is it because pollution or what what's the cost there's a few things i mean water quality is like a very common you know cause for loss other things are just like construction construction around like coastlines digging it up dredging changing ocean temperatures changing like ocean currents these sorts of things impact dish and basically you know the the kind of context there is there's a lot of governments in around all over the world like really really panicking around this like if they lose their sea they lose their fish stocks if they lose their fish stocks you have the one billion people who are rely on it and three billion people who are rely on it for food and and the billion franklin income and that you know they're they're in a they're in a tough situation and basically restoring it i e bringing it back is currently a very manual process and how and how are you guys doing that or but we built autonomous robots to do it and you're actually building the robots yourself or when you said you're building a platform i thought that meant you're allowing other people to build it and use your technology to like track them yeah so for this first use case we've built we're we've built a kinda custom robotic payload you know like when you're when you're starting and trying to do something there it's kind of important to to kinda get you know initial traction in a weird place and i think if we just build something and hope that people would use it for for something if we just built the platform which is like an underwater vehicle on the surface vehicle that that didn't that dock together you know we might have trouble getting traction but we started off with this initial use case we've we basically built these like attachments that go on to our own order vehicle that do collecting seeds planting seeds measuring their growth to kinda get this initial traction so you know in our first year we did a million dollars in in revenue just kinda like you know for first first year for person team based here in san francisco why would someone pay you to do this so the reason people pay us is because it's you know it's a critically important like ocean ecosystem that you know it lost has these like very negative downstream impacts yeah it's like you know one reason another reason is like lots of coke governments narrow around the world have implemented laws that restrict your ability to damage this plant if you or if you damage it you have to pay someone to plant so they're paying us to plant its compliance driven restoration so that's the kind of con we've contract western australia we've a contract in florida we've contracted in virginia and they're all kind of for like these general reasons other compliance driven restoration or voluntary led restoration say am i put how important is sea egress into chat gp here's what i said sea egress is wildly important to the world and then basically says it captures carbon thirty five times faster than rainforest which i think he said and then it says it's like a baby crib for the ocean the sea grass basically is where small fish crabs sea horses and even endangered species and turtles they're born and they live early on in their life and if lost then you would in it says lose the sea grass and entire marine ecosystems collapse yeah well what's crazy is you okay the mission check like onboard amazing do you kinda skip the headline sean did we he he built a robotics business set in the first year you've only i think i think you said you only raised two million dollars or something like that so with only two million in funding in your first eighteen months of business you did a million in revenue is that right yeah and just five people as well is there something new about building like a robotics company today that lets you do it way cheaper like did something change like oh we all use whatever you know it's like when the raspberry pie came out then it's was like oh we can now have this little computer for thirty five bucks or whatever is there something that does that's made it a lot cheaper or maybe just there's more talent what what what's changed three d printers is being huge like that's just like a game changer i means it's just like the speed of iteration has gone up massively it's you know it's easier now to get parts overnight as well and just like get like she model she metal cord and the cost of a lot of things has gone down like massively as well like with like the advent of like electric vehicles batteries kinda went down massively and a lot of electronic components with drones like motors went down massively in cost you know for us as well like a critical enabler of what we do right is star because you know the way our system works is like we have this like autonomous boat it's like a service vehicle this is like our mothers ship and then we have a docking system that releases these these daughter robots these like autonomous underwater vehicles to do the actual critical activity in the ocean that you wanna do and you know we wouldn't be able to communicate with these assets without something like sterling you had iridium before but like the bandwidth on that wasn't that strong and so you have like other like kinda one out features like that and that company we're talking about sale drone they've raised like over a hundred million dollars it looks like they're valued five hundred two billion dollars that's that's interesting there's another one called ceramic sam ironic no how do you spell it s a r o n i c and well you probably know a little bit more about this company than me i think this joe lo seated this company right yes yeah now this looks sick as well so like when we had joe on the podcast i was at his house he was telling me about this company should have just invested on the spot but he was basically like we're we're building drone like drones for the water yeah and you know drones in the for defense just like doing it for the sky and and you know modern warfare has turned into into drone base they're building these unmanned surface vehicles us vs for the ocean and they talked about how did you know this like the us navy sam just take a guess how many ships are in the us navy fleet just what's the number oh i don't know five hundred i what i it's hard to even say a hundred so okay so you're a lot closer than i thought i would have guessed that we have thousands of ships we have three hundred ships in the navy is a ship considered like an aircraft carrier because those are huge right those are like cities sure but oh my god but only three hundred that's just like a very small number to me and we have sixty seven submarines that's it sixty seven dude i have more kids at my three year old birthday party that's insane to me so we got three hundred ships or whatever and basically every ship is like i don't know the exact cost of it but let me let me pull so i think they're like will correct me if wrong but like the average cost of these is something like or maybe establish across these contracts like two hundred fifty million dollars every time you get contract to do one of these and so you're a startup up like ironic and you're all you have to do is basically say alright we're gonna come in we're gonna build the most innovative autonomous vehicles here and we're gonna operate you know what and did was was remarkable so what andrew did was in silicon valley the smartest tech people nobody was working on defense google had famously shut down its defense project and defense was taboo like you're gonna make weapons that was not cool at the time and it was there was basically zero zero weapons startups in san francisco and what they did was they said we're gonna do this we're gonna use the silicon valley method and talent to do this we're gonna change the cost structure so all the big defense prime we're operating on what's called cost plus model and so their incentive really was to have really high cost operations because they were making ten percent on top of whatever the cost was right so the incentive model sort of screwed up and that's how you get you know a single airplane that's like a billion dollars or something like that to to get paid and so it was costing the government a lot these guys had no incentive to innovate no incentive to cut costs and they were using talent that was not the smartest engineering talent in the world which was all centered in silicon valley and the andrew comes out paul lucky and trey and others they basically came out and what they said was we believe this is important we believe that american needs this and we believe we should put the best talent in the world on this problem and they've built now twenty to thirty billion dollar company doing this and the reason i find this exciting is that i love these huge opportunities that are hidden in plain sight i talked to a friend recently who knew elon and i said what was elon like where were you impressed with elon he goes i was impressed with elon but not because he was the smartest guy in the room you know we would be at a party there's twenty people you couldn't say oh my god that's the guy he goes but the thing that elon did better than everybody else was that elon looked down at the ground and saw a trillion dollar opportunity that was just sitting there you know before elon it's not like there were a bunch of people trying to build you know rocket companies or electric car companies it wasn't like they were trying and failed and he succeeded they weren't even trying and he goes the beautiful part about elon is that he saw those and he didn't ignore it like the rest of us and he that the idea of let's go to mars was there it was available to all of them yes and we were all blind to it and so similarly i think did that in the defense space and now it looks like ceramic is basically doing that in the the sort of ocean defense space where you know you have this combination of get elite talent at robotics and ai and autonomy and you pair it with this old industry and i think you have a pretty unique window to build a very big company doing this yeah like they're they're building and i i think of like they're building the home vs and we're building the toyota hi right like they're building like these like ultra fast like defense focus like vehicles and and like they're you know gonna make the so trying to see a hell and make china and i wanna cross that that that that ocean and keep taiwan safe if they keep going on the path they're doing and they're doing like incredible job at that and then we have we occupy like a different niche like we're like we just want like every single like you know day to day tasks that is like done at etsy once we want to dawn like on our platform and so like we want like all the servicing done but like platforms and these sorts of things there's like a lot of things that are making the ocean like very important in this century more than previous ones like warfare is a good example like every other single war we fought in the last like tree decades until now has been like in a desert right now we're going to the ocean that requires a complete re tooling of the military you know and just even how we think about war and needs fundamentally needs to change like the climate question is ultimately an ocean question like the ocean is like the world's largest natural carbon sink it is like where most of the life on earth lives it is you know one of our biggest sources of like food in a world where like a population is growing and food scarcity is always a question even just like you look at ai right like the data infrastructure build out for ai is going to be like enormous right in bay that's gonna require more data infrastructure i e like cables connecting different parts of the world transmitting data we're gonna need more data centers we're gonna need more energy these are all things like we're we're already putting and testing putting data centers in the ocean the cooling cost iron and mas they become like more efficient so well let's let's go back so there's there's already pipes under the ocean that basically for like internet pipes under the ocean correct yeah yeah yeah i mean most of the most of the information that tried our our internet connection now is most of that is like traveling through is traveling underground who built that is that the government built that or google built that who who put that who put those pipes in the ocean to do that so a lot of the initial infrastructure build out for for for it in the ocean came from telecom companies actually yeah like in the eighties sean so there's a handful of telecom companies that were startups and they are some of the fastest growing companies in the world so like imagine the ai companies today that are scaling to a hundred million in revenue in a year that was what did they die or what happened so a lot of them are still running and then there was some of the you know if you look at like one of the biggest fraud on earth like it's like bernie made off and then like the third one is actually one of these telecom companies that was laying pipes in in the in the ocean but a lot of them are still round they're just like small b or if they're not small but they're b to b companies that you wouldn't even know but they can be like a ten billion dollar a year company but in the eighties right well maybe i know if you know this if i but in the eighties that was like the the birth of a lot of this wasn't it yeah yeah yeah massively and and now you're seeing a transition to the builder being coming from flying from like big tech i and soon i think it'll be like the the ai companies so what you're saying will now is that but ai companies need these data centers just a you know huge amounts of gpus in a data center and those data centers need cooling they need power they need tons of things and they need ideally they need to be close to places where people are using it and what you're saying is that somebody's gonna build a data center in the ocean or are people are already building data centers in the ocean and what who's doing that or or or is this a future idea and why are they doing that is that a good idea yeah so i think the first experiment of this was a microsoft project they did it there's a boise startup up as well room by friends of mine san mendel he's got a company called network ocean they're building and operating starting to building and operate these things are they actually underwater or are they on top of the water just out the china's is for it to be subs and again like these are the sorts of businesses that like we want to be the kind of servicing partner for in the future when they need maintenance when they need like inspections done when they like it's like us they're coming to and we're selling them like a kinda in the box solution to i think the the biggest opportunity in this like you know paradigm in the future where more and more data cables are being laid subs c is actually in the protection of them right so i don't know if you guys are familiar what's going on and like the baltic sea in places but like think in the last year about eleven cables have been code by actors i'm like you know basically the and these cables by the way they're like it's like a human sized tunnel right are they on the ocean floor or are they like floating in the ocean if you're like they say cable we're not talking like a like a rope they hear pull it it's like yeah it's like a tunnel right yeah i'm i'm like okay like literally the the like the chinese are lily publicly advertising these cutters that they have these cable cutters right they're literally putting in the south china morning press china unveil powerful deep sea cable cutter could reset the all alert they're not even they're not even fucking hiding this like they're they're calling the cables they're like they're like yeah we're just look how big our cable cutter is like this is just like the new paradigm and then like know they send these like little like you know taiwanese ships into the are these chinese ships into the baltic sea on like fishing missions right like what the hell are they doing the baltic sea on fishing missions like they're clearly just cutting cables and then like two days later you oh cable cut i would calling calling this a cable cutter is like calling a robo a ship you know what i mean like maybe technically it's it's correct but they need to re bread this because what you're showing us is basically like a huge submarine you know like i i think it like a clip that's yeah this is insane so they're going down and they're cutting this and what does that do like does a country lose internet or is it just like i mean damage it okay i'll give you this vision right so these cables run between like military bases as well right and okay let's say there's like a a hot war breaks out and like to say trying to see right first target then is gonna be like a military base in like the pacific somewhere where like guam right what if you if you wanted to like completely scramble what you know their understanding of un situational awareness of what is going on you are gonna be laying sending these subs c drones down there to go and quote the cables that is giving them like comm that's giving them energy and you're gonna be like scrambling their air waves with like you know electromagnetic interference and that's how you're gonna like just completely prevent like american military responses in in the pacific right but how many how many cables like we're you're talking about two dummies how many cables does america rely on there's there's like not actually that many right like it's in like there there's like an insane amount of data that goes over them but there's only about like six hundred octave i'm so impressed that you knew that number that's insane to me so there's not a lot of redundancy you're saying no no not at all like they're they're very difficult to lay right right and you need to respond quickly so yeah like i mean there's like many critical things that rely on them but like yeah you're you're way better off defending them with unmanned water drones than trying to lay backup pipes down there and leave them un defending persistent out arts like century style in the same way that like and like have the you know started with these like border systems to like see what was coming in and over like the land border like we need the exact same type of systems out at sea like permanently just sitting there on top of them they need to be cheap so that you can deploy them massively at scale the ocean is huge so they need to be cheap to be scalable you need to be able to see what's going on at the surface and you need to be to see what's going on soap surface and and that fun that's like the platform that that we've developed we have this like surface vehicle a docking system can drop at a number of water vehicle and we've made it like all by ten times cheaper than anyone else so like that's you know sea is like a nice place where we started how how how deep your vehicles go do they go to like the bottom of the ocean where these pipes are so for the baltic sea i mean it's one it's one of the shallower seasons and this is like a major the major kinda like you know activity or area of activity where this is going right now so our our vehicle works in that the you know at all dead profiles and that's the so for the baltic sea part of it it is it it works when you get into like na parts of the ocean like some of the pacific where you're getting down into like eight thousand meters right like mount everest the you know levels of depth we can't go there yet it just started getting difficult but like yeah or we will be adding future vehicles to the feedback i can you will i'm twenty seven sean so when you and i moved to san francisco and well i moved there in twelve and we're about the same age it was the sharing economy that was the thing so it was airbnb uber and left were the winners and then there was a bunch of derivative things like airbnb for garages or or you know or for storage fears later it was ai or job crypto so like bitcoin and coinbase where winners and there's a bunch of like silly things right now it this is so strange to me it's ai but it's also will it's whatever category you guys would go in you're not quite defense tech but it's like wild to me that this job shift has happened because ten years ago i would told you like you know that was when boom supersonic was starting in a few other things i said this is this is foolish what guys doing where technology this is a technology city why don't you do like software it's to here you say this it so foreign to me it's also so interesting like it's for me it's like a a no brainer i mean like you know the low hanging fruit of software has been eaten right you guys like you know what it's like yeah we ate it way they're like like how many more cr hubs are there exactly the the boomers has gone cheaper real to say you guys got like b b sauce right like it's like that's like and i it's like on to do like something where like the next frontier which is like front brand and then like also it's like it's like a no brainer you look at like the top ten most valuable con companies in the world right now it's like seven out to ten them have like a hardware like an extreme like hardware component right like the biggest companies being built today are hardware companies and also in a world where you can just like vibe code overnight like a crm or a salesforce or not salesforce but like a calendar competitor it's like okay well is there read a mode like these sorts of things anymore it's like yeah you're right you're absolutely right and i think it's so fascinating because it so when sean and i live in san francisco if if someone who looked like you so you look you're wearing a ford bro shirt i bet you're wearing cowboy boots and you got a little bit of swag to you and you like if you would if you were to talk about what you're talking about it'll would be like you're you're so out of touch you're out of touch for the for the for the yc group about of touch people like it it's just so interesting to me and i think it's great so there's a exited podcast with james career and he has this thing about technology windows sam you ever see this part no but technology windows so he basically says alright there's a reason there's a there's a almost like a scientific reason why why what you just described happens happens and so he basically says like when a wave of startups comes out it's because of a technology change so you for example an inflection so when we you're be right when we first moved to san francisco i moved in twenty twelve and the mobile window was open and that's when instagram uber snapchat like a bunch of companies got built that relied on you having a computer with you at all times that had internet connection that had an acc that had a map a gps feature in it and then all these companies could get built but that window opens for a very like a a fixed amount of time and basically like you said the low hanging fruit all gets eaten and so he he went back all the way to the railroads and he's like the railroad technology window was open for forty years and like if you just look there was not another successful railroad company after that forty year period and because all the opportunities basically got eaten automobiles was twenty five years and so in a twenty five year window you got buick dodge ford cadillac gm chevrolet lincoln chrysler all of it within a very short window and then you had nothing for another about eighty years and then the window reopened because of battery technology and you got tesla and r and so that that was a almost a new technology window around automobiles because the tech had changed again around batteries and so he was basically saying like b to b saas has had a twenty year window and now ai software ai starting in twenty sixteen and that's like the current window that we're in and i would say you know what will is doing and what a lot of smart entrepreneurs are doing right now is they're in the technology window of ai robotics and three d printing and basically those three technologies have have opened up the door to build new things that couldn't have been built ten fifteen twenty years ago so this is what a technology looks like just check this out if you're on if you're on audio you have to be on youtube to see this but i'm i'm sharing my screen here so it basically says like step one the technology invented and only the hobby are playing with it out of interest and creativity right and then two is the status moment one of the hobby achieve status and wealth using the tech so you know for example so this is like you know mark andre jason on the on the cover of time barefoot because the hobby internet guy became rich by building you know the browser and then this happened again with social networking this happened again with elon and a palmer lucky and all those guys right now who've would who've had their status moment where you know palmer was like literally like living in a rv building vr headsets for like ninety bucks using spare parts he was a hobby and then the hobby got the wealth the status moment when he's sold to facebook for three billion dollars and then you know same thing with elon elon was building in relative obscurity both open ai you know opening i was a nonprofit it was relatively obscure for the first five years that it was out that they were doing the thing but now sam alt and and elon and palmer dan with andrew have had a new status moment and then there's what he calls knowledge diffusion which is suddenly there's conferences there's podcasts like this there's newsletters there's twitter where people are sharing ideas about how to do this what's going on and you get this explosion of stuff and then competition floods and then the new incumbents are born and then the the the new incumbent regime takes over due to their their def def ability like they build something that is def def maybe because it's hardware maybe because it it requires scale maybe it has a network effect and the technology window close is ninety percent close and you only have a few exceptions from there on out it's so funny to sean and to meet will who's like in the thick of it actually what you're describing yeah will when did you start were you like were you a hobby when did you start with doing what doing what you're doing like when were you messing around with drones or ocean tech so yeah i mean like like i said i've been like you know in in the ocean on the ocean near the ocean since was kid diving surfing you know whatever boarding all these sorts of things growing up but never never had built in it really before this kinda scooter sharing started where i think popped off i was like you know working you know in that my c vendors all kinda have been tinkering and and these sorts of things but again none of us had ever actually really done anything the ocean which i actually think is a massive benefit right like because none of us came in with these pre conceived notions for higher like subs c drones should work you know my you know two of my cofounder were building aerial drones and in a drone delivery startup up before so they took like a lot of the primitives from that one of them had worked on self driving cars took some of the like ideas from that but again i think there's like definitely this like idea that i agree with that like you know to really actually shake up an industry you it's probably good if you don't come from it because we came to it and like you know we we thought an initially that we were gonna be maybe using someone else's platform and repurposing it but we looked at all of the subs c drones on the market and they were crap they cost like you know they were like one of the ones we were looking at which like actually had the specs that would have met what we wanted to do cost like five hundred grand it's that's like a quarter of our pre to do what we want like it's like and then like my my our cto jamie he just like went into a cave for a few days and just like came back with like a a design for like a a new type of like autonomous one underwater vehicle and then we like tested we're like oh shit this works oh shit it's like ten twenty tons cheaper than like anything we could have bought you know so it's like sometimes you just need like a a new idea and like a an artist to go into a cave and then you can you can like change things that's how all the great things as all the biggest problems have been solved this is like i mean all religions like muhammad went into the cave like jesus went into the desert you know like all these like prophets like the go off into the old and they come back with like this like secret and then you know someone else spreads the word for right like it's like yeah yeah peso saint peter does it in like the catholic church and like this well there's so yes this is a a common architect i've that end yeah that does work yes you you said something earlier about how a billion people rely on the sea for their food has anybody done you know food or like tuna or salmon in a way are they doing anything interesting there with like whether it's like lab grown or or something innovative yeah yeah my my friends got a very very interesting start called wild type which is like sustainable sushi grade salmon so basically that's like cultivated seafood and so they're first product like they're what is what do you mean by cultivate it's grown it's grown it's not like farmed in or or called at at etsy like grown in a lab or grown well like in a yeah exactly in this like in industrial process yeah they can basically grow cells and then put them together in such a way that it tastes like sashimi grades salmon so you know in the same way that elon started off with like a a sports car right they're starting off with like a your sashimi great sam in the highest end salmon kit and i've tried it it's great this is in san francisco it it looks like a breweries yes exactly it's like similar number i guess i mean look breweries are like where so much of the like best kind of biotech innovation has come like from people building like mass industrial processes for you know cultivating converting food for like a very long period of time in fact so you're telling me that someone is growing salmon that i can go eat right now yeah yeah i mean i got it through for my friend i don't know if they're in stores yet they're still going undergoing fda approval but like yeah no none of these nasty heavy metals or micro plastics in them you know it's reducing pressure on fish stocks you know this is this is good stuff i doesn't have any the nasty like parasites that you guys some of this like farmed salmon as well so yeah definitely i think think things like this will be would be important holy crazy to me this is crazy is it is it like the lab grown meats where it's like ten thousand dollars an ounce it's like it tastes it we can we made you either pick you either have the cheap thing like beyond meat or impossible foods but it doesn't taste great or it's not good for you it's made with a bunch of chemicals or you have the real thing but it's super expensive and so nobody can afford it well i think given that like my friend shared it with me that it it's not that expensive but it's you're not that good friend exactly yeah how are you but i think this stuff is like sooner than we think it's around the corner well wow these guys did a hundred million dollar series b in twenty twenty two that's pretty crazy what what else is cool town the well tell me everything what the guys like you are too like it's a more shit shit some crazy ones yes yeah okay alright this one is is well right buckle up okay ocean treasure hunting right so there is actually like you know hundreds of rex out there in the ocean today that potentially have like more than a billion dollars on them right like gold bull that like spanish were bringing back from their conquest and then you know they got hit by storm or these sorts of things right and there's like probably thousands that have like millions of dollars of funds in them right so governments the the source government so like the spaniards of the portuguese still have claim on these things however there is precedent in history for you to do these kind of like profit sharing agreements where it's like if we find that and we restore we give you back all your art artifacts we give you back everything but you know we sell some of them we get to we get we can we keep them so you can do this right it's it's like these models where it's like these saas negotiation cuts the companies are like hey if we go and save you money on your vendors we get a cut we keep twenty percent is that except for you go to the spanish royal government and you're like hey there are if we find any hidden treasures in the ocean can we keep a couple bars for our exactly around for p who's building this so what my my friend used to do this his same chip four and he would be like hey i'm going off the coast of whatever to go bro you did that have a friend that used to do this that's insane chip four you know he went he went off the coast and just what scuba diving or what would you do it was chip in four who i think you've met aj he's crazy his brother chip they basically the way it works now is it's kinda like a movie like you have these crazy people and you get other people to finance it and you say if we find this treasure you know here's the agreement on how we split it and they would go off the coat they would somehow narrow in on where they think it is they would spend a week trying to find it and most of the time you don't find it but occasionally you hit the lottery is that i mean is that right will how it works now pretty much yeah yeah so there's like fundamentally two parts of like a mission it's like or three parts is like there's like you know the pre mission you know you know negotiating and like you know looking to and start with the records to see like where we think it could be you know kinda scoping it out and also getting permission so when you do the recovery you have like some chance of being able to hold onto to it then there's like this kind scouting where you're actually on size and you're doing like scouting and you're like basically using sonar to scan this this seat bed and understand what's there and then there's like recovery where you're bringing out these like gnarly like jc b style or vs and remote operated vehicles that could add and just like dig it all up and bring it back up and then you have your party and is anybody doing this like has anybody do you know someone is like made like ten million dollars finding treasures in the ocean i know some people working on this they're haven't them like share their problems public yet i won't like share but there is like some exciting developments coming in this space that that we we may or may not be helping did did and did you say there's three million ship x at the bottom of the ocean so i'm i'm not sure if specifically speaking on like a total so we mean surprised that if there's like that many ship x but there is like there's like hundreds that potentially have billions on them wow okay that's that's insane what else so there's okay i'll give you like a back quote right there's this like canadian billionaire called ross who had this quote of few furiously he said give me a a time of iron filings and i will give you an ice age right what he meant by that is that you can actually alter like the kind of weather of earth by like don't iron into the ocean right so so basically like many many parts of the the ocean are low in iron are there anything they need more iron and if you add orange to these parts of the ocean you stimulate like algae growing at the surface algae then draws down carbon and then the fish eat and then the fish diet and then fall to the bottom of this and then so the carbon goes from the air into the bottom of the ocean right so this is like generally good because there we have too much carbon in the atmosphere we also want more fish but you need to balance it because you don't wanna put too much in and then just like there's too much salmon and then there's like salmon take over like you know a certain like ecosystem which is maybe like knock good or something i or you know there's a basically where you're doing stuff from in in in like what ecosystems three it's very like difficult to predict how things for about planet you need to be careful so this huge didn't was did do that carefully it went out like off the coast of like vancouver partnered up with these like native americans and just stayed like this experiment where he just like basically dumped off load of iron filings removed through his qualifications like thousands of tons of of of of carbon do they're off the coast there that year they have like the biggest they take of salmon ever as a result and but the kind of ad of hard did not like his experimentation and like the connect canadian going to like cia like busted his home and he got like yeah like a warrant and yeah he got a lot of trouble so people haven't really done it since then because he kinda got like you know he was kind first crazy maybe like the hobby to do something like this at scale but i think there is gonna be like a billion dollar company built in like marine geo engineering of some description there's this and so i'm i'm i'm kat so it's like there's this like my lot of my beliefs around like environmental and fact that comes from like this christian no notion of storage stewardship that like we should like look after our lands and our seas because it's like our duty two and i think this is like kind of like where we're going with like how we we manage the climate like climate used to be this kind of let's like avoid the worst case scenario and it was just very like kinda like let's like stop committing carbon but like i think there's like a more interesting idea of like like stewardship i think of environmental where we actually just like control you know we we we steward the planet right we like we take control we get involved we you know someone like a augustus at rain maker can make it rain when we wanted it to rain you know if someone like use can come in and bring back the the the sea grasses when we need the sea grasses you know someone could like you know when we wanna draw carbon can do like our increased fish stocks somewhere we could just like do a bit of this i think it's gonna we're gonna have to build these tools right because these we need these in tandem with growing the size of the comm pie if we wanna keep doing that you know we don't wanna just like shut down the economy we don't wanna like just stop doing like commissions altogether it's important for us to how these other kinda compensate mechanisms and yeah i think marine your engineering it's like an interesting and like under explored space i think main we need to get right there are science better science on it better technology and governance the governance it because the ocean is like a public space it's like you know you just need to get the governance by right have you seen sean have you seen this guy augustus the founder of rain maker incredible moly so where's this whole cohort of people of which will appears to be one of the like you know class presidents where there's this like they're very strange they don't fit this stereotype that when you think of a tech entrepreneur they're like kind of manly man or they're like they're not the they're not like this engineer like typical thing that you and i grew up with sean like there's something about them that is different and i can't tell if you guys are gonna take over the world to be billionaires or if you're gonna go broke but it's only gonna be one of the two dude do you understand sean like this this new genre that i'm trying to describe i don't i don't know exactly what i'm what i'm saying well maybe you can like put words to it but there's this new like breed that that i austin and san francisco had a baby you get the the stash in the mu of austin and then you get the insane ambition and tech tech shops of set of silicon valley and that's what's happening for example this guy augustus i think isaiah was he had he's on the cover i think of forbes or something and he's sitting on a on a bench press like a like with like a like a working out that is not something that brian cha or you know travis ka would have done in two thousand and twelve i think it's emblem democratic of like what's kind of the evolution of the technology industry though i think like you know we we began like is this kind of like hippie that found computers with people like steve jobs we were like actual on like the access of like the spiritual you know realm and then it was like you know you had like people like bill gates and zuckerberg who just like nerds like actual on the sense of like mind know they were like smart and nerdy and now you have like people who were like openly flexing on like we're actual on the sense of the body right like we're like becoming strong and like you have like this like full integration like mind body and spirit and it's like no wonder that this like you tech becoming like fully actual on all of the access to like that a human needs to develop on is happening at the exact same time where you have like elon who is like chief tech pro in the fucking white house right like these things even there's but no coincidence to me it's like tech has like found its voice it's like found itself it's like self confident and it's like ready to like actually change the world now because it's like it's you know it's it's like especially like aligned it's like mentally they're you know we're smart and like we're like now like a strong group of people as well who are taking health and fitness seriously it's like yes i this is why i think like we're out like the most interest in time in technology right now i like that poetic you know last night i watched a a clip of the final scene of ratatouille you seen that sam no it's great movie and the final scene of ratatouille is the the critic the critic who who's is the the most fearsome critic in in all of the town writes the review about the restaurant where the rat has been cooking and he just gives us beautiful monologue maybe the vet the most beautiful four minutes in all the film is the last four minutes of right ratatouille here the monologue will i think you're up there with the last four minutes of ratatouille there with your mind body and spirit analogy for tech i i think that's kind of amazing i've actually heard that before with just the technology part of it so it's like you had the initial you know the bicycle for the mind so you had steve jobs talking about how the how computers will enable creativity and then you had you know sort of ai it's like oh we gave computers a brain and now way they can think for themselves and then with robotics in self driving cars it's like we gave the computers a potty so they can move around and pick up things and do things and i like how you you extended that to to you know the the entrepreneurial will has has like just grown in that way a bezos since so to get in jack like in t they look like looked like this is like i think that's dramatic of like the spirit and technology it's like you have the like you know one of my favorite podcast podcasts besides yours you know the tech pros and like watch jo and and john are doing there it's like they're like they're they're know the the technology brothers they're like leaning into the fact that der tech pros that used to be a slur right now it's like oh i'm confident in it i'm like i'm owning it and they're like doing these like hilarious promo videos with them like sipping dom peri on like it's like there's like a confidence in an era of like okay let's do it now you know we're not like we're not gonna be like like the events and functions anymore kinda lying about what we're not not new dude listen yourself i got an email from this guy named jamie at the wall street journal so jamie is a a reporter for wall street journal style team and he listen to this he goes i'm writing a story about tech guys embracing western ware so basically cowboy clothes in the past recent years and i wanna write about how the tech bro uniform has changed from quarter zips and all birds to denim shirts cowboy boots and like when i saw this that he said tech bro i was like dude that's amazing i don't think i could talk like it this is life win that he thinks you're the expert to go to right yeah life win but i was like i'm not exactly tech but that's amazing that you think that i like i am a fashion influence officially now yeah reply mission accomplished yeah dude that's amazing and and you're right like dude is there any difference or you you the first time you saw z doing mma do you remember when that video came out is there any difference between that video and the first time you saw like a boston robotics or boston dynamics like robot dog getting kicked in like jumping around and like doing back flips and shit like there's no difference two the two videos just the same days that everyone remembers where they were when they saw it i like wow i didn't know the robots could do that that's how i felt watching zach that's why i felt watching busted the the busted dynamics robot well one lot of last questions can i invest yeah yeah great okay cool because i think this is awesome i you guys are you guys are insane man this energy is so wild i'm not convinced that it's gonna end one like okay so on one hand it it goes both ways so on one hand there's the hub where you know you're like a you know in the case of andrew you're boeing or you're one of these huge companies and you're like you know parker or palmer you know nothing you know just go back to that would be better if they called them park parker or car sending little parker listen parker they would be like palmer you know you know nothing you know you're just you go back to making facebook apps you know and like probably eight out of ten times that idea is right right where like there's a incumbent and like they fail because it's really hard and there's centuries of of hard work to go against in competition and so that's the same with you and i i would have to imagine where you have these young really smart people who have no experience and is this the ten percent of the time where you guys are just gonna take over the world or is this another time where someone's gonna be like look this is exactly what you told you it does not work alright listen that guy john that that guy who said give me half a tanker of iron and i will give you an i say here's what i say give me a hundred mu and i'll give you a ten portfolio i just need will i need augustus i need palmer with a mu right three mu i need ninety seven more mu and i'll give you a ten return okay keep give me the fund off i'll find the most you find the bullets like i can't i don't know enough to know if this is if this is achievable or not oh i definitely understand that feeling yeah for sure i i am not qualified to judge the feasibility of something but i think in general it's not about any you know if nothing if you anybody if anybody who's doing a start up like this thinks it's a sure thing or a sure bet the nuts right like you're gonna have to perform a miracle right and that's okay the the important thing is oh wow we took a portion of our brain power that was otherwise gonna be building x or working at y company you know working at facebook optimizing you know ad clicks or starting a company that was gonna be doing you know b b hr software and instead now we we peeled off a portion of that talent and now we sent you know a hundred mu at these problems and i think that that that's the winning strategy a hundred or a thousand shots on goal like this and then the winners will obviously emerge well i can assure you what we're doing is very real you wouldn't have a million dollars in our bank end without it we wouldn't have done all the things we done in the last five months if you wanna come here to san francisco and see some real robots in ocean and the door is always open sound same for i i gotta ask you two quick questions number one sea grass seems so random and when if you started this company you might have thought oh i'll do drones like for warfare yeah how did you arrive at the sea thing was it instant was it was that the initial idea or did you do some discovery initial idea it was the initial i came to one of my c vendors and he was on a surf trip and he kinda the same ones you went into the cave and designed our au went i heard about sierra so when du cave and like went deep on sierra and came back to us and presented like this is this is a very interesting space and we kind of work he heard about sea egress on a surf trip from who a marine biologist friend of his who was working the guy out a guy out the wave yeah dude this discount yeah this c founder is absolutely carrying your company yeah he's scott has built the tech and figured out the go to tomorrow i love it yeah he's the well yeah he he found he finally the kinda he was a who brought sea ra us and then myself and mother c cofounder kinda put it together and like this is about the business probably should look like but then yeah we kinda went out from there into other areas and like you know like i think any brilliant company finds a local monopoly to build in first somewhere where there's nobody else doing stuff with technology where you've you know it's a great sign and nobody's ever heard of what you're even doing initially and you can it's a pretty big market you can you'll bring cash into your business as like a lifeblood and so it's been a great place for us to start it's like the best place for us to start nobody's ever heard of it so i think that's always a good place to to start it off and then yes we're gonna use that as a kinda launching point to do other interesting things in the ocean who do you admire will who do you wanna be like steve irwin win probably dude motherfucker i was gonna say this earlier on i go you are steve irwin i do i you got c vibes hard cor bay i you got a khaki shorts on right now right no but we have a picture of milk on the wall here oh i you sc steve irwin with you have steve with vibes through and through yeah yeah i know he's i'm hope yeah i'm hopeful i can i get the the erwin probably on the trainer at some point or we got hot we gotta holler bind bind the erwin that be great robert i love those guys yeah robert as well yeah you know look steve i think is like i just so funny you people say steve out of podcast and the tech it's like steve jobs it's for me it's sixteen you should just said steve at the beginning and then let us fall into your track dude sean sean there's this famous video i i know you've seen this as well there's a famous video of it's steve irwin and his wife what's her name i i figured forget forgot her name and anyway there's a interviewer who asked steve like you know you don't seem like you care sam sam sam sam sam just look just look just look what's on my screen just look with there it is thank you i was pulling it up because i love back clip with you brother i love this love this clip play it play it what good is a fast car flash house and a gold play and danny to me absolutely no all i've been put on this planet to protect wildlife and wilderness areas which in essence is gonna help humanity i wanna have the purest oceans i wanna be able to drink water straight out of that creek i wanna stop y ozone own layer i wanna save the world and you know money money's is great i can't get enough money and you know what i'm gonna do with it i'm gonna buy wilderness areas with it every single cent i get go straight into conservation and guess what charles i don't give a rip whose money it is mate i'll use it and i'll spend it on buying land this is how every man should be by the way like you're passionate about something that's good for others and like his wife's just like eye and him and that's one of my favorite clips of all time yeah it's it's it's kinda so i think the traits in him that i'm wearing is just like pete like raw pie the site to take omni bridal passion it's think this is like non nonsensical passion it's like do you think i'm gonna have a conversation without a microphone no i'm gonna put a microphone there i'm gonna record a podcast i'm gonna record a podcast every day and i don't give a rep who's listening because you know what i'm a podcast and i'm gonna podcast my ass off it's a whole lot more lay but you're not talking about like saving the earth you know what be like i tried i tried like when we're talking about like conversion rate optimization or b dude in back will we kinda my generation and the generation before me we we you know what do they say hard times create or does like we need a hard man to create soft times that's what i did for you you know we wait did the b b software stuff so you guys could do this fun amazing stuff so really you're welcome thank you thank you can we do just a quick happy hour of two topics that you had on this list that i you know sam if you got a run or whatever you're feel free but i just gotta ask you about these so i wanna do the fun one and then the spiritual one the fun one is conspiracy theories you're big conspiracy you're a fan of conspiracy theories i believe and you like people who like conspiracy theories so can you just give me a rant on why conspiracy theories are underrated here i think but i think it it's like you know a lot of the traits have like a conspiracy theorist or like those of like a like a great like a founder i think like someone that like believes in something that everyone else tells them is like not real or like you know that they shouldn't believe in or like you know people that are like able to see patterns that others can't see and you know they they they're just like go down these like rabbit holes and i think like just like this contra and spirit i think it's like very very good and i think it's just like a very important know the default is like doing things that other people do so i think it's very important to cultivate an ability to see the world differently i think it isn't it funny how contra is this like really positive description and conspiracy theorists it's like this like negative description you know what i mean it's the same thing i just think it's very important to you know how weird ideas to take them seriously here right like if we just had heard crs idea and just like roast it you know we wouldn't i would like i'd don't know what hell i'd be doing today you know it's like you need to take something weird and go with it so like i don't believe like to blindly believe every report of tele and non verbal autistic children and every like late in night ufo sighting but like i refuse to just dismiss them out outright and i think you know history shows us that breakthroughs often and happen at the edges where people are curious and enough fool hard enough to investigate the une explain so it's like whether it's like christian mystic you know who swear by miraculous healings or physics experiments that like challenge our understanding of space time i think it's very important to like lean into these weird things and ask what if and yeah i think it's crazy theories are just kinda like fun as well they're like kinda like horoscope for dudes so they're like if any if not if nothing else like they're just like it's like it's just like a phone thing to kind spend your your your time reading about on here you talk about aliens we are with joe gabriel recently who's like the ninety richest person in the world and i was like joe luck you're worth like ten billion dollars like if there's a illuminati like you are either in it or your friends with the people in it tell me one thing that like you guys talk about and he looked at me he goes aliens are real and he went on a he went on a big he had a big die tribe on his passion for like you know ufo an aliens and how he absolutely is on board with them it wouldn't wanna recession he's on board with them he came off very passionately like it is absolutely a thing and the funny thing is if you meet joe he's he's a serious dude joe doesn't just say wild shit for a wild shit sake you know joe's not like oh he's a cookie billionaire no no joe's is like an extremely principled artist he is a a very serious individual and so for him to say something like that it's not like you you don't discount it with the same discount rate you would if john mca was the guy saying it know what i mean if if you if if your readers why and i the robert all the best right website i recommend going is website a friend of mine runs ua p evidence dot com is there any other dope conspiracy that i should get look at a rabbit hole that would waste a nice five hours of my time i think lies of a conspiracy you more like wacky weird rabbit hole you need to go down is you need to listen to the tele types podcast i have and love that what's what what is this is this like i can read your mind so basically there's this group of people that people have been tall crazy for like the last like two decades right it's basically the teachers and parents some children and nonverbal autism because they've been convinced that their kids have been able to like read their mind and now for like the first time with teaching kids how to spell on unlike ipads and also with like getting researchers to study them they're actually verifying these tele capabilities right so like a mother will like go into one room and she'll be shown like a random number generator and her son ak in the other room will hit the exact same three numbers one hundred percent of the time consistency in tests that's awesome yes it it's like the serial podcast but it's this woman investigated these claims and she's like you know like an npr skeptical let me call it right so she she comes in she's like this didn't make a ton of sense but i'm open minded as she turned i i didn't finish the whole thing i i listen to probably the first or three but i was to i was going to sleep and i just had some like wow wild nights there so i decided alright i need to only listen to this you know not falling asleep if i'm gonna do this right but by the way did you walk away from that you you know half convinced we're three fourth convinced totally convinced what did you walk i was going injured already with some sort of like prior that i thought that like consciousness consciousness isn't local to the brand like we like to think that like our brand is this kinda like dvd player where like conscious to playing and it's like being played to us and that's how we experience things i think we're more like i always kinda thought on for different reasons that were more like a radio antenna you know you have these stories of people like their their son dies in an accident and they just know something's things wrong right they just like know like there's like you know everyone every family has these stories like death or like something bad happened and they just like knew they woke up in the middle of the night and they're like a couldn't sleep then after that and they wake up the next day they hear about this all accident or data that or you have like there's like knowing this and these other things like just like calamity twins calamity and stuff of and there's like this world of paris psychology which is like the study of these kind of saw phenomena there's like a few very rep reproducible experiments in it like the gowns experiment which allow me to go on this like very short rabbit at all but like the most reproducible experiment in this field is basically you take two people you put them in like two separate rooms these could be twins these could be a husband wife they could be two artists they could be too people who don't know each other different settings and basically you give me a picture and you give and you're the receiver then in another room and i'm in one room and i'm talking about this random i've been given let's say it's one and four different pictures i get a picture of an element for five minutes i talk about elephants i saturate my brain with africa and wild animals in savannah you're in the other area you're listening to white noise and you're talking basically about what you're sensing feeling that it could be about and then at the end of the five minutes i've i stop and you get replayed while you were saying to yourself for five minutes and you get the four random images and you get to pick one of the four and then you would assume if complete chance you know you would twenty five percent chance of getting it right but pretty consistently you get like thirty percent or above in this like experiment and then when there's like twins husband and wives and or artists they actually score like more consistently three five in installments instances this is like seventy percent into some of these experiments and so i've always kinda been like promised to think that like actually maybe we're more like we're touching into something and like that explains a lot of the spiritual and wu wuhan stuff and then i he see this and it's like very good experiment evidence and really well done and i'm like okay no that's on tail legit like our brain is not like this like ai chip that like runs and just like tells us what to do it's like an ai chip but it's like also has a radio antenna i can connect to other people can maybe connect to god spirits other things we don't really know dude i'm so bummed that i grew up in the b b era of startups yeah so bummed well i wish like wish i was ten years younger or you were ten i wish we could hung out dude let's grab some beers i went to a bachelor party this weekend and everybody on the it was a it was a bachelor party where the bachelor's and the bachelorette rights were both at doing it together basically is a it's a party together and the bachelorette outside was so cool like every single one of them just you know those tattoos that aren't like filled in they're just like it's almost looks like a pencil sketch yeah just seven or eight of those some piercing sense of style off the charts knowledge of beer and music way beyond my recognition you know sexuality was a total spectrum you never knew who was who who who's dating who anybody could be dating anybody in the room was insane i just felt like i literally felt like i came from a i was a caveman man and i was like or or like you know like i was the ginger red man actually i wasn't even a real human being i was a cookie cutter shape that was placed in this room that's awesome that is so funny i think one like universal law by technologies that like it breeds variants right like it just like it it creates like skewed outcomes i think you probably see this in like younger generations as well you've got like weird like kinda like sc like me that will like burn your ear off like it's conspiracy theories and like you know gu down weird rabbit but like i think you also it's like on the like maybe on the more negative event end that could send you deck down like some pretty dark places that maybe you would be a productive member of society if you go down like those like into those like very dark corners the internet or similarly like it's you know you have people who are like doing like great things but then you also like you know i think there's is like a very interesting question that posed technology right now was like where are the you know the the kind of like less than kind twenty five you know you know billion dollar company founders this is like an interesting question that i think is it's still not really like there's no satisfying answers around like previous generations had like the call pretty early you know we had like alexander wang or like he's maybe like fears older than me pretty early still doesn't seem clear whether isn't one in this marriage maybe we have to wait another year or two for companies like he was sees it or rain or others to like to to to get there but there's definitely like a i think a bigger skew and both the ideas that young people are interested today i think that's like broadly just like downstream move yeah technology are you gonna be become an american yeah i think i'm gonna i'm on the green courage path yeah my last question was the spiritual one you said you lived with buddhist monks in the nepal and for a summer he learned a lot and one thing i liked you said i couldn't come around to their view which states that zero desires leads to enlightenment and so you and then you said like you know i you wanted to be you wanted to be action oriented and do something with your life rather than sit and sort of reno everything and then you said something like i came to i came to explain my five desires or six desires can you just you give give me the quick story on your summer with the monks and then what you landed yeah so yeah i just kinda want i just heard heard the that you you can do this right you can actually just like find a demons to like basically put you up if you teach them english so i i did that find a monastery in a nepal i would like put me up it's but pretty rural a few hours outside and the came went there through there taught them i've told me myself to teaching her four i came over was teaching in them english and then like in the downtime was like able to speak some of the older monks who had like good english and like ask about their ideology because there's just a there's just five monks with like a thick irish accent speaking in english out there don't yeah i learned from an expert wild actual segue i was out running in the middle of the nepal one day some and i bumped into a dude who was wearing a gallo away bay five k t shirt and i was like i was sorry you might have like no english but i was like where did you get this like t shirt like he is like we're near where from and he was like he's was like had like kinda like an irish shock and he's like oh well you know i actually work with an irish guy he has like an orphanage and like a charity area here and i was like oh wait like what's this like irish guy's name the arch guy he named was like the one irish guy that mine my neighbor who's like my mom's friend my mom's friend was like my mom worried about me going to pot was like well you know i need you need to have a contact in poll new go over there you know i was like and this isn't my neighbor new guy who's in nepal had a charity out there anyway like this random guy and it's like tiny village work with him so this is like you know there's like harder put everywhere everyone just talking like kinda like all these monks are like a little kinda i boxed it they're like you'll do nothing box the bullock off them yeah you'll you'll do nothing literally desires everywhere we have we have we have people everywhere that's like the color tomorrow is that what the monks us are saying we didn't hear to come we didn't come to take part we came to take over alright so so sorry so you go there and you're what continue i'm i'm curious about to rage i'm asking them questions about it but one thing i just couldn't get over was like you know they don't believe in desire like they believe desire is like what leads to offering if you desire for something then you're creating a contract with yourself to be unhappy until you have that thing and i'm just like dude i'm very like american dream pill i'm like you know i should want for things i should want for but i can see how that can go wrong as well right because that leads like you know keeping up with the jones type love lifestyle or maybe like you know kinda like you know the fat on and on the chair of walmart kinda like thing you know like that that's probably like when it goes like maybe a too far hey you better watch it will what's our kayla you better watch what you're say it no they're you're not that fat so anyway so that's why i can see where i can go wrong right but i do think there was like an essence of truth there where it's like maybe you should like actually try to trim down and things since was possible and i have this like bizarre experience where i i was i went and did ever space camp afterwards and i was thinking a lot about like the things that they were saying to me and again i feel like i had like a download like of these experiences where like something just came into my brain that i don't think i well hadn't been thinking you about it before and i genuinely think it was a download from you know something spiritual that like gave me like some guidance on many i was literally it sounds crazy but i was sitting on a rock like just like on a break in the hike because it's like ten day hike up to a base camp and i look it was like thinking through it's like hey wait if you have no desire like what do you do it's like oh maybe you should have zara but the minimum measure of them then i was like what is like important to me and i was like on my hand i was like oh my family my friends my house my wealth my craft and i was like oh shit like that's like five things that's like nice and clean and then i had this like idea at the same time of like a rose bush my rose bushes if you like leave them go un kept they basically just grow like briar and they go torn and the flowers don't really grow you to like put them back to let the energy go back to like the rose and i was just like i had this like very care vision of like roses and i was like oh okay right so this is it okay so whenever i'm like down over something it's like if it's not one of these like five important things to me dan it's like okay just like let it go like stop desi for and i found not to be helpful you got a girlfriend and no that was your reaction to his story about the buddhist monks and like realizing think the meaning of life you wanna dude you tell me an i guy with that in his inter profile is they just gonna destroy the whole city give me a brady saving the world saving the world sea grass former monk sam five desires family health wealth fitness and win will those are those are sam desires this is so good man you're the best well this is awesome people should check you out where on twitter your willow o'brien what's your what's your hand at wi o'brien w i l ob i okay great and good luck with the company now thank dude thank you alright that's it that's the pod thank you i feel like i could rule where i know i could be what i want to alright from at all in it like a days off on a goal travel never looking back