Newsletter Schemes, Copywriting Scams and Chaotic Singles

send them in the email you said hey just wanted to block you know if if you read the milk road do you like it like just respond to like whatever hello you know tell me where you really like hey you're a subscriber in the milk road where do you live guess how many replies we got i have no idea i think we literally got three replies out how many said there was maybe like i don't know i wanna say like twenty thousand or something that like twenty thousand and three replied yeah i feel like i could rude where i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a day's on on a road let's never looking bad dude according to the youtube data by the end of the sentence half the audience will have dropped off that's how content goes nowadays you have like we're four point two seconds to look everybody is that true it was is it really that short i thought it was like joking but it it is like that i mean like after somebody clicks play you just see the the curve start to go space mountain downwards and then and then it flattens out but are you looking at the data like i i didn't i rarely log in you just let it flash the camera in the first flash seconds every every time so they're you know you know how like there's a joke about news anchors wearing like shorts with me it's the sleeveless t shirt i've got jacked sleeveless tea baby how's that for flash i mean i don't even know what you're prepared for you're like i can go outside it can rain i can bring him a doctor for a minute i can work out i can climb a mountain interest or it's it's a hundred and seven degrees in austin today and so i'm either shirtless or sleeveless team most of the time wanna record i gotta put the jacket and on so i like a little professional dude i've been trying to convince ben to move to california from austin i originally peg it at a fifteen percent chance what's what's it at now oh i think we're like up to fifty i think we've made serious headway now i put in all this work what i needed to do was just wait for summer just smoke them out right the all i had to do is just smoke them out i don't know if ever told you this i once was doing a deal that required us to negotiate with a company called pet china pet china is basically like exxon mob but it's owned by the government in china and so we go to this and they're like the big they're like you know huge company but it's owned by the government so nobody knows how much it's worth all that stuff but it's mega powerful oil and gas company china so we go and we're supposed to negotiate this deal and i i they i kid you not they just they did the opposite of smoking us out or sweating us out they just froze us out they put us in a room that was like like just cold as hell and there was no way out like first getting to the room was like a twenty minute walk like a like a pass like going through this labyrinth of doors and we get to this room we're in they're like they'll be with you soon and then they leave and seven hours pass and we're sitting in this room and i'm like hey i think they freaking forgot about us so we gotta go talk to somebody and then i tried to stand up and immediately an arm like puts me back in the chair they're like no this is part of to freeze you just yeah just to make it uncomfortable and they were like you show no weakness here we just sit we there's this urban myth i don't know if it's sure not or steve cohen you know one of the guys who apparently is based off of or his billions characters based off of him steve cohen rich guy owns bets where the reason why pat vest are popular on wall street is he used to make his office freezing so when the sec regulators would come in they are really uncomfortable and everyone knew i didn't wanna stay yeah they didn't wanna stay but so apparently it works dude it i mean my costco has a walking freezer where you go get like our walking fridge where you but it's over a room it's a giant room where you go get vegetables that thing is so uncomfortable i mean i it's like whatever is the nearest vegetable that's all i'm getting and then i'm getting out of there i i definitely believe that if i was the sec i would i would get the fuck out of there i forgot to ask you this so and right now and so basically in two thousand seventeen i wrote this ad so for the hustle and it was my boss thinks smart parenthesis i'm not it's because i read the hustle and he has no idea that it exists dash a reader of the hustle and that was like our ad on facebook on twitter i see that ad everywhere for every newsletter for every like ai or it was like my boss thinks i know about ai i don't the reason i well what happened is you did it morning brew then did it so they they do it one who's been running an ad like that for a long time so you if you've seen those ads you're like oh good idea i'll copy that then the other thing was facebook launched to ad library so now you can go see other companies ads so you can just go and look what i what ads are the running google launched an ad library take tiktok now launched an ad library so you can go see anyone's stick tiktok ads to and then you've talked about that ad on the podcast and i noticed after the after you said it on the podcast then people started running it then there's also a guy who worked for you worked for for us at at mill road who then goes in he's pitching he's basically going and telling every newsletter company i'm the key to the growth of the hustle of mil road of every fucking news newsletter company i did it i'm the best i could tell you exactly what they did and i don't know about you for the hustle but for us i'm like this guy is massively overs what he did but like whatever i i mean i guess we were already in the we already had a million subscribers but yeah i mean i and i didn't work closely him but i'm i'm sure he's great i just we were amazing that his job but he is definitely overs selling and he is people will come to me and they'll be like hey i just wanted to get a quick reference check this guy basically like he does a a sales deck that just says like i did everything for real grove like i i figured all out i did all these things and like is that legit and i'm like no and actually the funny thing is i think in the short term that helped him as a long term that hurt him because two very big names have come to me and they said hey i'm thinking about behind this guy sounds like you did great work for you guys just wanna do a quick pulse check like thumbs up thumbs down would you recommend and i was like i wish i could say yes but like no for these two reasons one he's overs stating what he did if he just said what he did they would have been fine two when we sold the company he went and put up a twitter thread saying like hey mil grow sold and here's all the things that they do to to grow and we asked when we're like hey man you take that down like we're still running as a business like you can't just shouldn't just like you're a you're a service provider you're you're contractor for yeah yeah we were client of yours we never said you and you want your confidence confidentiality you should never go publish all of your clients things or you mean it's not actually all like we don't want any of this stuff out there right and and he's was like no i gotta get mine too from the sale and i'm like what like dude i'm asking you to take this down are you really gonna like your client and i it was never deleted and he was he tried to say no again i was like wow like jesus that is like insanely unprofessional to do that in my opinion at least and you know so whatever he did delete it after that after i was like wow are you like are you serious this is actually the stance you're gonna take that's an insane stance to take yeah i don't like when people talk about two two really big names that i think would have been like way bigger than the hustle way bigger than milk road we're gonna work with them have asked me and i'm like i can't i'm just gonna tell you what my experience was you decide and they're like oh no we would not wanna work with someone who does that and i was like damn like the short term that her it leads to long term loss unfortunately like yeah know that that's the the irony of of doing stuff and i've done stuff like that too where i make a short term short term good decision that actually cost me in the long run but it's hard to see in the moment you know so it's it's yeah that's a that's a that's an expensive lesson but my question was were you running this ad and did it still work up until we sold it was still work we didn't run that ad we didn't run my boss things and whatever we did i think try a version of like my friends think i'm you know like whatever i my friend think i know everything about crypto what they don't know is that i just read the road every morning something like that i think we ran that but those weren't high like that wasn't the highest performer our other we had other stuff that was better performers but in general that best one more than fifty percent of our subscribers were organic so it like you know you know the if more the fifty percent of your growth comes organic then that that means it's the content that's the content the brand dude i've talked to so many of these new new newsletter guys and they're all doing so when we when we started the hustle like up and hundreds of thousands were organic and then we like learned i know what paid marketing was and we learned about it and then we started doing this thing called c registration which it it would typically only scam me marketer type of people would do that right like people selling like sex pills and shit and we were like well that's interesting like in theory let's actually figure out what it means in a non scam way and so we like well explain it except so you you go to a assign so for example you go to i'll try to find a real life example go to if you go to bold dot org yeah it's a website where you can apply you can enter in your information and it automatically applies you to tons and tons of different scholarships and what it says was great if you want somehow they have a point system where it's like it's free to use but you have to sign up for like these newsletters in order to be able to in order to be able to apply to even more scholarships and so we would pay bold dot org some money i don't remember the money one dollar let's say for every college kid who entered their email and sent to the hustle and then they would go in subscribe to more stuff more scholarships and so that's what c reg so you're registering for one thing but then you are asked to register for another thing in exchange for some type of perk typically that that's an internet marketing hack that's done with scam stuff really scam people but we went to product hunt and we're were like hey have you guys thought about doing c reg and we're like yeah we're working on it we're like well would be great we would be your first customer and so that's how we started growing really quickly or we were already growing quickly but once you you know we're adding like yeah we're adding like five thousand people reinvent at every every stage right at the beginning you do friends at friends of family then you do your own social media then you do posts that are really good content that's gonna go viral that's gonna get you now to the to the next level of organic then you start layering on some paid then you have to diversify your paid because not one source is gonna work as well as the others and they you know they don't all scale right and when you're adding a hundred thousand people a month you have like fifty percent or some amount it's still organic but then that's still like eighty thousand customers that you need to sign up so some will be facebook some of the some that some c reg so coverage works really well the problem with it is that it's a very low intent reader so like the scholarship person isn't like the highest is like hey sean sign up for milk road it's awesome that's high intent less less high but still high like i saw this adam on facebook saying there's this newsletter that sounds cool i'm interested the lowest intent is i'm trying to buy a i'm trying to get a coupon for target right but i have to get enter the i have to get my email yeah yeah in order that's the lowest intent or i'm trying to win this free prize and i get more entries if i just sign up for this fucking news newsletter of whatever i'll sign up for that's the lowest intent now i talked to what but that but the the the thing is is that you grow quickly so for a quarter you can get an email subscriber but for every ten email subscribers only one will actually be of high quality and so the problem is is you get addicted to this and so i was talking all these other newsletter guys like i got to a hundred thousand in like six months i'm like oh sick how they go oh this ain't called c reg and i'm like yeah oh you're fucked this is a horrible news newsletter you're fucked this is a your business is is dogs there's there's other versions of this so subs has a thing where you subscribe to someone subs and then they're like here's five other subs you might like auto checked and you just you're just trying to continue and now you're subscribed to five newsletters and you see people whose curve on sub looks flat up like you know normal growth normal good growth no good growth and then like hockey stick it's like yes i crossed three hundred thousand five hundred thousand subscribers and it's like yeah but these aren't people who actually wanna read your thing and then the other thing is that they think the open rate is high but open rates nowadays because of the way they've changed with apple old cookie stuff works it's it's not reliable so for example yeah when we started forty percent was good when we started forty percent was good that was considered the best and then fifty percent we would get fifty and we're like where the greatest there is now everyone is fifty percent right and and because it's because they're not actually fifty percent because open rates cannot be measured the same way they used to be able to make rem measure where it was more more reliable now you have to use click to rate or whatever like our people should clicking your your ads your content that sort of thing and so this guy i was i was talking about for the mill road he was the one who was like oh yeah c should do this we were like okay let's try it and let's see how it goes and we tried it sure enough sure enough you get you get good growth out of it but and you get addicted to it but is the quality so so after we sold we were like hey let's you know like at some point we were like okay let's look at all these sources we're gonna this organic bringing getting this from this from here we did an analysis and we're like alright let's test this c thing open rates look good let's just let's how do we figure out if these are high quality or not it's like i don't know it's so good the cost is good should be fine right we send them an email you said hey just wanted to blah blah you know if if you read the bill grow do you like it like just respond to like whatever hello you know tell me where you like hey you're a subscriber to the silk road where do you live yeah we we wanna know where you live if somebody actually reads your daily newsletter fifty percent of the time they're so excited to get an email from the founder that says you know hey i'm just reached reach out say whatever they'll give a very high reply rate guess somebody many replies we got i have no idea i think we literally got three replies i i haven't really there was maybe like i don't know i wanna say like twenty thousand or something like like twenty thousand and three replied it was it was like a big number yeah i don't know the exact but like i know that the reply number was something like three replies that day maybe more trickled but like it doesn't matter that day three people replied and we were like oh cut this off immediately and that same guy goes any he pedals that to all the other newsletters just like yeah this what also did wasn't mil crowe did does it's like we did with a small percentage of what we were doing and as soon as we were able to test it we were like oh screw this why would we want a subscriber number like unless you dupe somebody you don't wanna a subscriber number that's not real right like real subscriber is the only way to build a real business and you know i talked to the morning b guys and i think they're they're also very like they i think just straight measure on like what does this lead to in terms of clicks on our ads yeah like or like conversions even you know from how many people buy our average buying something right like if you because if i'm if i'm getting you as a customer that's the right way to do it right that's the that's sustainable way to do it but i don't think people you know kids these days instead they're doing it differently than than back in our day one one year ago yeah i remember way back on six months ago no that that's how they have to do and they also another thing is i talked to another guy and i was like well of your list how many if you said that you're hosting an ai event that was free how many people are gonna show up he's like oh we'd sell out immediately i'm like great then you're doing that that sounds like you're doing it correctly and then i talked to another guy i'm like well many people would show up to this event and they're like well no one i'm like well well then this this business sucks like they're they're not they're not real you should bail and quit or start over but yeah the the coverage thing is mostly nonsense it doesn't always have to be or you could it's kind of a pain in the ass if you make money through advertising it's like you need to hit a top line number and that's why hate advertising because there's very there's inverse incentives so like not everyone's aligned for the same thing and so i think that's why i fucking hate advertising it could be done well but when you have like a team to support and you want kd to hit her quota and get paid i'm like fuck you gotta like make sacrifices and i hate that but anyway i wanted to bring up this ad be because we're talking about copywriting on friday i interviewed lair hamilton how did it go so it went really bad it went very bad not what i think it went bad but reason it well he's not a business guy for one but i'm like a fitness i'm in into fitness and stuff but i wanted to ask him all the fitness stuff but i was like i don't i watched so many hours of him leading up to it and i was like i don't wanna just ask the same questions like i just watched so much of your stuff that all the questions that i thought i was going to have you've already answered that them yeah you've answered it and so there was like that that there but also dude there's tickets it's a bummer to meet your heroes because he's amazing but i just want him to be this like idea rather than this reality do you know what i mean i like i like him so like i remember like i i just i've been very lucky to meet a bunch of my heroes and once you meet them they're a little bit less of a of here a hero and i think i just prefer them being a hero not to say that he didn't live up to my expectations he did it was just that i don't wanna be even remotely a peer of his i want him to be like you know right my my great grandpa who ever heard stories about if if you're a fan of this podcast if you consider me as sam you know if somebody that you look up to in any way prepare to be disappointed alright we're just very average people when you meet us we will destroy we we will ruin this podcast for you but i was super self conscious about it so guys hear the pod let me know like in the youtube comments what you think but it was it was only okay i think it was maybe it was only okay for me as because i was in interviewing him but i just learned so much about it i'm like oh i already know everything there's nothing new to know about you or i'm just not you unique enough to ask a question show shifting gears and gone bobby alt on him what's that oh like that girl awkward interview girl and just act like you don't care she has shot up so basically i saw her on tiktok and i the thing about tic tiktok and instagram is you don't know who else knows what you're watching right like it's hard like there's no like chart or there's no like greatest hits and so i was just like who is this random chick popping up is interviewing these these guys when she's like in her bed interviewing like drake like not just like a break then i saw drake and i'm like what the hell what is going on with this how is this like just this twenty one year old woman who's like rude or a guest talking to drake and then on the podcast charts i think she was number one for a few days yeah she's been in the top five she went from i've never heard of this person and she didn't have a podcast to a top five podcast in like two weeks so we're doing something wrong and it well yeah for sure she has this ad for seek seek advertised on podcast with drake and she was so today's sponsor is seat geek which makes sense because drake apparently hosts events and i think see geek lets you buy tickets or events so if you like events and drake yeah she's i would wanna go yeah and she goes and they gave you twenty dollars cool like that's her ad so no no the the call to action was the best she said something like she was like to go you can use speaking if you want i guess it's so funny she's pretty good i don't wanna listen to sixty minutes of that interview but like she's so she's interview drake which is like i think her the first podcast guess that came out and she's like in the middle of she's like i don't i don't know any other questions do you do you have any other questions and he's like not really like birthday in bed under the covers during the interview yeah they're in a bed which is just i mean she's a genius clearly so she's a genius so i think her story is she was like a mom she was like a mommy tiktok but i don't really understand how she went from mommy tiktok to podcast interviewing drake was like a really clear brand that's amazing like a very distinct style that's amazing because if you watch her tiktok she doesn't talk like that yeah it's just a character she's or or she doesn't i mean it's not like i don't think her tiktok is mainly like that like i'm gonna pull one up right now but like no some of it was it's like normal or her joking around with her friends but no it's it's it's like steven colbert but instead of this conservative guy it's the i don't give a shit tech person so she i watched like an hour straight of one of these i'm rarely listen to like if you tell me hey there's a new podcast like i need ten people to recommend a podcast before i go try it you know what i mean like it's not like an easy ask but yeah i got hooked on her shit really quickly and watched a hour long awkward interview with her mark cuban and her with rick glass i don't know if you saw this but she did went with rick glass and it didn't seem like he was in on the joke who's just glass man i think he was actually the first one that she recorded rick glass a comedian he's got it yeah yeah yeah he might have been in on the joke because he's like a very talented guy like he could he could find that line where it looks like he's not on the joke but he is but she was just like i mean she's just awkward the interviewing him and he at some point he's just like what is like what is this why are you doing this and it's it's like why am i doing what i'm i'm interviewing you and he's like no but you're he's like you're saying that you're interviewing me but everything i say you just say is a lie why would i lie why would i come to your podcast and lie and she's like i don't know why are you lying and then he's like i that's he's like i'm not lie is this your bit is this what you do and he's like he just can't figure it out he's like i'm sorry i was frustrated and defensive because i felt like you were trolling me or something i didn't understand what was happening i still don't remember really understand was happening but i'm gonna do better to try to answer your questions and then she's was like thank you you were being me and he's like i wasn't being mean i was reacting just i wanna know what happened before and after the interview because after like so you and i have done some stuff in person with people and like you're really cool and friendly enough to people but i don't know what you do afterwards like particularly with like a tucker carlson interview where he's like getting mean with people and like do shake hands afterwards and say thanks for coming you know what i mean or or does like the does it does that terrible thank you that was that yeah like oh we dislike each other strongly yeah so i'm curious to see what like the perform where she's like anne scene and does she like be friendly and like kim hug i i i i don't like to see what that before an after like yeah i i don't know she's a mystery to me somebody explained this to me i i i just don't understand who she is how she landed such big guess why she immediately is so popular i i been like i get her brand but like how did she even and break out that's kind of what i don't get but whatever bobby alto good for you bobby alto twenty five years old i think twenty twenty five twenty six years old and like clearly gonna be one of the most famous podcast alright yeah fuck us yeah i mean that's the third time that's happened or the second time it's it happened with the caller daddy woman where like it was like episode two she's shot up there that's pretty rare i mean it's more common with youtube with podcast podcasts that doesn't happen often at all right now someone's gonna do that obnoxious tweet where it's like everybody thinks bobby alt tu is an overnight success here's how it was ten years in the making and then it's just gonna be like you know some stupid origin story that like really wasn't like she actually is kind of an overnight success okay yeah which is cool i like should be some right there's should be stuff people talk about like they don't exist i'm like well instagram is only two years old i mean like those are real like it it it's real which which which one of these things you wanna go to alright dating people to you and i both happily married off the dating market but shit's getting crazy in the dating world i don't know if you've seen these two things i'm gonna tell you about the first one is called a chaos singles party have you ever heard of this no do you download the dating apps now just to like check it out and see what it's about if my wife asked just just for science not of course no i bought all these but i read the this is in new york times so i heard i read the story in new york times and i was like what this sounds fascinating so here's the story this woman cassidy davis is on the dating app she's just a normal person and it's valentine's day twenty twenty two so last year valentine's day this she's frustrated frustration she just doesn't doesn't have anything to do on valentine's so she just basically she's like hey here's less what we should do should throw like a singles party on valentine's day so if you're single on valentine's come to this she tells every one of her girlfriends who's also struggling with online dating hey match with someone on tinder and then invite them to this party invite them to a house party and they're like what and she's like yeah just match with one person invite them as you're plus one to this house party but everybody's gonna do it so it would be just a bunch of single people at this party and so she's like alright so they they try to do she at the last time minute like i don't if anyone's was gonna come she invites sixty five guys from tinder to be like come and they're like what is happening is this real are you like catfish me she's was like dude just give the come dough cup alright that's it and so she has this house party and you could see the video on her on her tiktok but it's like a very which city i'm not sure where this one was but it's a small it was like a small thing it looked like maybe there's was like twenty people there but they were kinda having fun so it was like a bunch of single young people playing like drinking games whatever she records a she makes a tiktok out of it stitches it together like just the highlights of the party basically posted on tiktok and says what she did she goes she's like i did the most chaotic thing possible for valentine's day i invited i told have all my girlfriends to match with someone on tinder and invite them to my house for this house party and it was awesome and then people that thing explodes that video gets like whatever tons of views and the concept people really like this concept and so she's like i'm gonna do another one so she posts an update she's like gonna do another one in two or three weeks puts a link up for the chaos singles party same rules is it free i think it might have been free i maybe there's a cover chart i'm not sure five hundred people show up to that one and since then for the last year and a half of this woman's life she's just been going on the road traveling city to cindy she partnered up with tinder they like promote this thing now in the app they'll even promote her her parties and she gets paid to basically host these things and now two hundred or three hundred people a night come to these singles parties same rules match with one that's your plus one come to this event you can mix and ming you can you can stick with the person you invited or or just whatever it's all just people on tinder who wanna like have this chaos singles party i love this idea this is awesome i'm looking at or tic tiktok now so well done by her and now these things are like big like they're they're partnering with like legit venues it like looks like a lot of fun it looks like a whole whole scene now this is awesome i'm looking at or tic tiktok this woman's talented did i tell you about the or did you ever see the twitter things that i used to do for dating sometimes yeah those were great it was they were great my friend right it was basically like it was thanksgiving and we were having friends over and some of them are single and i'm like they were like hey yeah can you post me on your twitter i want they or you said it is that crazy you ask one of the people made a joke they're like dude just post me on your twitter i need meet a guy or some of them while you was like one sarah's friends was like i need meet a a nice a nice guy who's successful can you like introduce me i was like i'm just gonna post you on twitter and then i was like why don't wanna make you the only person like i'm your pant so i'm gonna get ten friends and the twitter said the tweet said hope you're hungry at thanksgiving day you know like here's ten people ten ten of my butt who yeah i was like hope you're hungry meet my friends yeah here's ten here's ten of my friends who are single and i said like a little bit about what they do for work and just i just went on their instagram and took a picture and it got viewed like two million times and i got dm by a lot of brands like hey you wanna make this a thing we'll sponsor was like no that's not gonna be my thing i don't want that no i was just fucking around and i think that that could potentially work like we actually turned it into like like words like an affluent crowd dating app or something like that i think i i did it with jonathan and jonathan actually met a girl who he went out with i think a like a handful of times like so it for jonathan i think it was successful is this true what what happened after you got posted on this thing well one of the girls who applied shout out to connor anne she came to the south by meetup that we did so i got to meet there hung out a little bit but in terms of like my dms like i got hit up by a gay dude and this nice indian woman who i decided not her report super successful yeah but for her and for for the women i'm sure it crushed are you still seeing that girl all connor or are you guys buddies now nah not really she lives in florida so but it kinda works yeah i'm nebraska for straws here i made pretty successful sounds like these gorilla things i love by the way i love these like gorilla gorilla dating yes so here's another one date me docs have you have you heard about this trend so it's date dot directory is that the your well that's the that's the directory of them but date me docs is like basically you take instead of going on a dating app you created a google doc and you just write in long form all about you your story what you want who you are what you're into what you're not into where your boundaries are all that stuff you just make a very detailed google doc and that's your profile and then somebody created the directory that links all the people like an it's like air table table so it it'd be like you know here's you know christina she a female she's interested in men she's aged forty two and it's it's just literally an air table and dude their all they they put mono and poly they're like it looks like almost half of them are poly i mean they want to have an open relationship or they're not serious kids these i think it's like oh i think they wanna like be dating a bunch of people at once or something i think that it's like half of them mer poll that's wild to me yeah yeah well that's i think you know that's that's something that's changed i think since we were like when i was dating ten ten years ago i never met anybody who was like on poly no it's was like you see tv that came it's like it was like yeah the only people who did that are like are like it's like a guy who's got like ted wives and it's on the tlc channel it comes on after john eight yeah yeah this is i think that's new so anyways the these docs if you look at these click click into some of these docs they play your photos and stuff and like a huge bio this is wild i click this one that's by mis misha it's the fourth one down so misha is a male and it takes to to a website that there's just like he's like torches like you're entering a dungeon probably not the vibe visa that you want but here we go and then the title is just romance am currently single looking for a primary partner hot that's odd how you said that primary partner like that only been in ships just bought a house blah blah and then it's like here's a bunch of my favorite blog posts here's some of my first dates you can chat with me on discord here's my spotify here's some pictures of me bunch of pictures boom boom boom alright so that's that's misha but like one of the things i notice i click through a bunch of these is how intellectual all of these are so there'll be like you know things you don't normally put on a dating profile it'd be like like here's one i'm on this woman's page s us she says i'm not ideological mono meaning i don't think mono is innate superior to poly i hold romantic feelings from more than one person at once but also struggle with jealousy blah what it's like very it's like is this therapy what is this this is like a whole like open book style of letting somebody into your brain which i can definitely see working for some people and i could see you're totally not working for a type for the type of person who they don't want out so i actually think this is a really great idea because i think it attracts in a lot of the same type of person the kind of like a little bit overly intellectual very open minded type of crowd that would be attracted you know it's kinda tech tech focused crowd here oh my gosh this is why smiling so i was just literally he's looking at his screen and he's just sm i'm looking at a lot of this it's there's one guy he's got a fifteen page user manual and he like documents his whole life who explain how to like and he talks about like ethical stuff he's like the correct answer to the trolley problem is to kill one person to save five like he like there is a correct like this is wild and on some regard i'm like well if you're like a single woman who's like thirty and you're like look i just need to meet like a competent man who's like thought full i guess this is the way to go unfortunately these aren't the type of guys that typically like can woo a woman i'm on a doc right now and it just there's a whole sub subs section called child rear plans there's seven paragraphs of their plans for child rear this is pre first date which is kind of amazing so have you heard of this reminds might have two things one if you there's this guy named christian rudder i think his name as he founded o he was one of the three or four c cofounder and he had a blog on all the data that o cupid had and so and then he eventually turned it into a book and the other thing was basically like you say one thing but your actions on our dating app say another thing like you say you want x y and z and i think one of the big takeaways was you say you want this this and this you really just go after people's photos like you say you don't wanna you you say you don't wanna smoker but if they're hot enough you'll you'll go with a smoker you say you don't want an animal lover but if they like fit your like your physical wants you're gonna you're gonna wanna be with them so and like that always intrigued me and that's why i don't think some of these like long form things will actually work i think they wanted to work but it won't the other thing is have you heard about the league do you remember the dating at the league yeah she came on the pod once long yeah her name is amanda bra she's a buddy of mine she sold the league you know they sold the league i didn't know they sold so they sold it yes i believe it was a very good sale they sold it to match i think match dot com or one of the big ones and i asked why they bought it and she was like well basically we only had like five or ten employees or something at the league it was really small team but the league originally i don't know if it started out as the phrase ivy league but it was basically like high end to meet a high end partner and you had to like apply and stuff like that and she was like one day i just said i went to she's a developer and she goes i logged to like our our app store account and i was like recharging twenty bucks a month right now how high does the app store let me charge like what's the highest amount for subscription revenue and i think i think it was like ninety nine dollars a week she's like that's the highest i go fuck that's what we're gonna do we're just gonna do ninety nine dollars a week and she was like everyone at my company and everyone outside so it's not gonna work she's like it crushed it we our revenue went up like crazy and one of the biggest reasons why match bought us is they're like we need to figure out how to sell products that are hundreds of dollars a month and no one knows how and she's like oh teach you how all you do is you go to your the app store and you just delete the number that you put in and you just put the higher number and guess what people are still gonna do it and that was like her thing was that it was a really really expensive dating app and it totally worked out for for higher end people and so i still i think that could be cool what what you and i didn't have when we were younger when we were dating we probably wouldn't have qualified then and we are and unfortunately we're not you we can't use it now but basically have you heard of ra yeah it's like a celebrity it's like you gotta be hot and famous to be in or something like that yeah i think they just look at your instagram like if you're verified on instagram you you're allowed to do it so ra is like everyone who's single is like say like of course we know about it ra is cool but i like these like exclusive dating apps and these expensive ones i think it's way better i've got friends that run tinder competitors and it sounds like a horrible business it's one of the very few businesses where you can't be like number three or number four like there's basically number one and number two and that's it at least that's what it appears like if you're going for mass market what's the quote it's like you know i don't wanna be a part of any club that will have me as a member that's that's sort of what you want when it comes to dating or cool things the you know this baby docs thing i think is a really fun idea i'm glad whoever i don't know who created this but kind of kind of like a cool cool cool idea obviously like things like this have been around for for a long time right like indian people famously like this is how my parents got married for example you right in the newspaper like you're your like call it bio data it's like your your name or age or job or whatever and you just create this profile that's like text only and people are like cool married let's do it and you know that that's basically how things how things work so you know something this actually can work the funny thing is this is actually you know what i'm actually do i'm actually just gonna recruit on here i think this is a great recruiting platform i think these people are probably all really smart thoughtful individuals who are tech savvy a lot of developers on here they put their github profile the yeah fucking linkedin i'm just i'm scraping this for the leads to hire from this is a amazing dude this one guy here says sixteen years old that's a trap jack i'm not clicking that you've got click out i've seen way timothy the episodes of chris hansen i'm not clicking that i know straight to the fbi brother the next crazy here is come on in check see awesome yeah dude my first one of my first internet companies was called bunk and the premise was we would put these ads we would we put these internet so close to the next airbnb well it it should have been airbnb and it should have been just tinder for tinder but basically the way it started was we would go and find online three and four bedroom apartments and we would like if it was a four bedroom apartment for four grand we would say we have one bedroom available for one thousand dollars and we would get five hundred people to apply and then we would host a party and team up people to get that place as well as a bunch of other places because we're like oh you you guys are all looking for similar budgets apparently so just like come and team up and get your own apartment and it worked it worked quite well and then a bunch of the people at the party started like hooking up with each other and we didn't catch the clue that we should have just made this a dating thing that's and then we launched this app we called it roommates and it was basically tinder for roommates and again we didn't catch the clue that people like i actually met a girl two different girls on that app that i ended up dating in two thousand and thirteen or fourteen and again we didn't catch a clue we should've have just done this for dating it would've have worked a lot better yeah the dating game is changing it you know one thing that dating is always gonna be a problem like it will never not be a pain point for people like not and there's no such thing as sort of like solving dating and anytime one thing gets popular it creates the need for another so like yeah you know tinder created the need for something like hinge and now when you have sort of like tend the tinder and hinge generation i talked to people who are dating now and they're like oh you know what the two worst things about those like about tinder and hinge is like you get either on tinder just get bots like this just girls trying to get you to like subscribe their only fans like oh this really hot girl matches me and she's interested in me she tells me to just click this link and then like follow the oh man this is just an up upsell like there's a bot and this up upsell me basically the other one is girls people that like because like we we were joking about the poly thing but like people have a lot of different like i don't know preferences and kind of different situations like a lot more configurations and like a boy like girls i'm a boy voice right like terrible what we knew was like you know we were checkers not chess when it came to dating right there was only so many moves you could make you move forward backwards for that was it and so you're you're red or black that's that's the game yeah now it's like you know multi colored chess and so the the the way that my friend is tell me he's like there's just one app i think it was called field or something like that maybe i got that wrong but i think it's called field and he's like i like it because people just super straight up it's like the culture on that app is he's gotta be ultra direct it's like i am looking for and you say the exact thing you're looking for and what you're into and what you're not into so that like people know like they're not gonna get meet somebody oh this person really cool but they want a completely different type of relationship configuration gender configuration that i'm to and so so i think you know there's a there's always a new need you know how when you and i do meet and every once in while a line will form to like say hi it's like hey how are you i was joking with my friend and she's like you know that's what it feels like to be a hot chick all the time like like you know like when you're and i will have like an m meet and we walk it and you'll see like oh people like are staring at us like this guy's giving me energy like he wants to like me to open i'll turn my hips a little bit let of like hey give them like the the you know like i'll my hip that's what it is it's like whenever wherever you point your junk it's like you'll be out of fig and you're like one on one with the t guy but you feel this it's all dudes and do you feel this energy you feel this other guy hovering you're like alright i'll turn my hips a little so this guy could get in on the combo and that's basically what it feels like to be like a six out of dead woman like all the time or maybe even lower like just to be a woman all the time it just you just whatever you want it's yours dude just last thing of this do you remember like i was in college the the game was like you would go to a bar or club or whatever and literally it was like a physical version of tinder it was like you just go you you guys just go behind the girl just grind and that the girl like accepts the growing then then you're you're in the it's like it's like that optional geographic man and you're like a bird flexing its feathers craziest that's the craziest thing that used to be normal i don't know if that's still normal that's the craziest thing that like i experienced in my life did you see that i never did that that was so uncomfortable dude that was all anybody around me even knew like that under drunk oh yeah no no not a chance i was too uncomfortable for that you had a question on here that i actually was thinking about the other day you have a question on here and i i originally thought i wrote this but i guess you did where it's what's an example of things today that our grandkids in fifty years well think is absolutely insane i've been thinking about this because on tiktok and instagram the kids grinding is my example grinding at the club is my first example i don't know if they did that anymore or not but anyone take fifty years it took me fifteen and i already realized that was batch crazy then well you'll see these videos and they'll be of heist school so like the kids now will be like check this out this is a home video of the class of two thousand eight in high school and you like see them walking around and like you see like the the the stuff that we used to wear and you see like our razor flip phones yeah and then like the kids rem like i can't believe they did this or that was so much better or this was so much worse you had a cool question on here about what do you think will be crazy yeah i think about this a lot what are things that fifty years from now like our grandkids will look at the way we lived today it'd be like what the hell were you thinking right like you know there's past example like if you go way past it's like slavery wow i can't believe that was just like the way you guys did things or whatever right like you know riding horseback that's crazy that's how people got around or just like people just dying of like everything you know like early on early age like that's crazy it was so risky to have a kid like you know one out of what four or five kids would just died before they even hit ten like that's that's really really rough i was reading this lewis and clark and whenever they get sick on the trail they like give each other pills and they're like we're just gonna give you diarrhea and you're gonna shit out the sickness right they call it a rush pill like they go we're gonna give me these pills and you're gonna get tons of diarrhea and you're gonna be healed and that was like the thing which is we're gonna just gonna make you poop a ton yeah yeah we did that with four lo it was great this just change the shake alright so so you had you wrote someone here of more recent history so you said driving to places without google maps yeah i like these are things that we experienced the before and after like we're at that age where we experienced the paper map era the asking people for directions to era just alright knowing how the interstate system of the united states works like my dad just kinda knew who roughly what you do to google maps dude did i don't even know the highway i live in austin i don't even know the highway the the big highway one mile away i can't even tell you the name of it same i don't even look up onedrive drive i still go by field alright then you had landline versus sell like landline being the only way to contact someone versus cell phones we we both experience that you wrote unsafe cars what you mean by unsafe cars dude my first car was at nineteen ninety two mazda pro and we bought it for i got it for nine hundred dollars for my mailman and when you look at that yeah but i i was sure mail you're like okay well sometimes we'd have to wear we'd have to wear ties on we'd have to wear ties to school every once a while and if i my dad went to work too early and he wasn't there my mailman would tie my tie so like i got to know the mailman a little bit kinda weird bought it from bought my car from nine hundred dollars and if you see that car to a new brand new like honda civic if you ever watched the videos have them running into each other it's insane it's absolutely insane like the safety it it's pretty wild of how dangerous they are yeah i think like these like when we look at cars when i look at cars from like the eighties and nineties it's ridiculous how shitty they are yeah that's crazy so what are the ones that you think fifty years from now so you we got a couple on here let's just go back and forth you do one i'll do one the first one is though having and then i've said this for a while but having like a growth on you having something growing in your body that's gonna kill you that you could have figured out had you just gotten some type of scan a year earlier so i think that's gonna we're gonna look back of like dude you just had this thing in your body and you didn't even know it'll be like so how did you know it's like well if you if you would feel a lump then you would just go to the doctor it's like feel a lumpy yeah like if there's was like a golf ball in you new alright let me go get it checked out that's literally state of the art like i just described state of the art procedure and at the time you're like that fuck it it'll go away you know what i mean you know and that burger right earlier yeah like loading go away it's probably a life phone i'll it'll go away and so yeah i think that will be a thing how about yours okay easy one i'll start easy mode driving yourself like it's pretty clear self driving cars are like on the horizon the idea that like yeah back in my day we used to get a license when we're sixteen years old and then yeah i just used to drive i used to just we used to have a steering wheel in the car you just have to look where you're going and all the other cars we're also holding steering looking where they were going we tried not to crash and if you're on a two lane road it's eighty miles an hour the opposite way with three feet of diff distance yeah yeah you just well they painted these lines and you just had to stay in the middle and just have to keep awake it's stay in the middle this keep looking and they'll be like what like that will sound completely barbaric right like it's like did people not crash yeah it sure did that they just leaning all the day so we get drunk before they did it like you sound just like what were you guys thinking and it was like well we just didn't have the tech at the time but like when you have self driving cars cars are gonna drive perfectly without you need there won't even be a steering wheel in the car cars will become like entertainment pods play video games or you'll sleep or you'll watch movies or you'll work like cars will become a whole different thing very soon and there's a clear before and after another one is so different diets like we still debate where like the atkins diet that's a thing oh no you wanna do the other thing you gotta eat lots of carbs you know car whole grains that's that's what you have to do and to this day like we're we're like well what which one do you feel good on i don't know like just do whatever i have car and vegan twice yeah yeah you are vegan to your you'll only consume vegans just constantly changed and like we don't know which one necessarily is better you know there's like really good arguments for both and we aren't sure and i think that that's pretty insane that who knows you know i don't know right by the way have you ever do you know a lot of doctors do you know how many classes they take on nutrition typically it's like it's like a class like they they don't doctors don't study nutrition which is pretty insane or at least like your average like yeah or extra exercise yeah your average doctor doesn't exactly it doesn't really know too much about exercising nutrition and so i think that that's like something we're gonna be like i don't know you just kinda like tried a bunch of different stuff and like you would read a read a bunch of blog posts on it and listen to podcast podcasts and like you just kinda guess a little bit right i think eating meat so killing animals to eat their meat i think we'll be seen like a genocide like a slavery i think it'll be seen as completely barbaric and immoral fifty years from now when we have the alternative that there will be an alternative which is basically lab grown meat or synthetic food that will solve the kind of protein problems and taste get the taste right and the cost right and at that when that happens as that shift happens we'll just be like yeah people just just take the thing you slaughter it you just kill it and then you need it and they'd be like you do it yourself no no gross i would never do that they do it and then they package it and then we read it and they're like what like didn't you have a dog it's like yeah i would never do that to a dog like but you would do it to this other animal was like yeah i was like how did you guys decide like well i guess on goodness or like i don't i know know how we decided what was completely illegal in immoral and would get you canceled versus like you eat it two times a day like you know the line is very thin between like cow and chicken and dog right like it's not that it's not that clear why one yes versus the other no so i think that eating meat will become we'll be seen as a as basically like our generations we just committed genocide on am animals i have twenty cows at my ranch do you you knew that right that have cows out there they're not yours right just straight or they're yours they're what my neighbor their my neighbor owns them and they are allowed to use my land to raise yeah and i don't pay taxes because of that or i pay less taxes but basically you i get know so like i i know who they are like i know which ones are which i know whose mom is who and like for it's fucking it sucked our first week there that we bought the place like a four month year old calf died or it was but a four month old calf is still like so six hundred pounds or whatever it was it was like a six hundred pound baby and apparently like swallowed a golf balls so my neighbor was like hey were you hitting golf balls i was like no dude i just i i was like it just i just moved here i it wasn't me i don't know and like it's all on instagram it falls at the new rant yeah and i was like dude once you get to know me you you'll you'll we'll understand i'm neither of us to offer i'm not a golfer you know what i mean and so and then i was like hey jeff this guy was was like what do i go and get like a shovel or something he goes oh no that's something bitch is gonna be gone in three days was like what he mean goes you'll see and so i come back in three days and the whole body in car everything was gone the all the animals like the birds and hogs they just ate him it was completely gone and the mother would go back to the spot where that calf was and would like mourn and i was like my heart was broken i was like i don't know if i could eat meat in the same way now i so i felt like devastated and so since then i've basically i only eat red meat like once a month because the cows like i get to know that them and i'm like i feel too sad i can't do it i'm not i'm not i'm not i'm not that manly of a man i can't do it but you you you think that childbirth manually is gonna be a thing of the past yeah so when i was in la we had dinner with a person named jessica you know she is yeah she's she's very impressive she's super impressive i think she did a company called indiana i don't know her very she's at this dinner but she's on those on the table so i didn't get to know her too much but she's seemed very interesting like narrow was like an accounting company that's still very successful but i think it's so successful now that she just has tons of money and does more stuff yeah it's a big i think she's she's out of that business now from what it sounded like and then we're like what do you she's like oh i basically invest and inc incubator like like hard science businesses and i think she's still only like twenty nine yeah yeah it was off she was very very impressive which should sometimes you could just tell that people are playing a different game at a different level so there's like yeah same game different level different game same level and then there's different game different level i would put her in different game different levels yeah you could talk her she's pretty brilliant i i'm within five minutes you're like oh okay i think she was i think her she started narrow and accounting software company at nineteen i don't know much about her but she started her i just went to her linkedin by the way started her first six figure business when she was in middle school goddamn different game different level okay yeah i was i was i hadn't even grind yet at that yeah was pretty yeah that's crazy anyways so she's she's doing this thing one of the things we i so we were talking her but we were like what are some of the like crazy science things that you're funding and then she would say things that were like her her thing was like novel like she she's trying to find like a novel approach at like an existing thing i don't i wanna butcher her but something like that which basically like a what called a bold a bold bold science so it's like basically like someone taking a new scientific approach at an existing problem so she'll go to universities and she'll find research labs where they'll be like this is the one researcher who's trying to do this thing but this completely other way than the general field is going and she's like cool i wanna fund that because those bold approaches when they were working a really big way and so one of the things we talked about just somehow the conversation came up was like the like birthing a child is like the natural way or whatever like you know woven carries baby nine months goes the labor delivers baby you know dad snips the umbilical cord like that's the the process as we know it today wait that does the dad do it they they hear like dad you wanna do it you gotta be that what is that what would be offered i'm not doing that on the in the moment there'd be like dad come do this and you're gonna be like what no i'm good i'm i'm holding her hand over here i'm i'm busy and they'll be like no no come come do it and then you're gonna be like oh you're gonna hold the thing and be like i don't wanna hurt this this is gonna hurt what is the i'm not doing that man i don't even wanna i won't even trevor toe i'm not gonna touch that there i don't wanna touch that like you're did you do it i did yeah oh do that i don't the peer pressure of six doctors and your wife who just like did a modern miracle did a like act of human bravery courage and then you're like i don't feel comfortable doing this like here i am not doing that wimp of the year like i've already told my wife i think i would a pass out i'm thinking a couple of xanax in in the room this is on no that's too much for me man i don't know if i can do that i'm i'm i'm not one of that guys i i'm not that guy i don't think my brother with my sister was give having giving having birth giving birth whatever yeah she he like beyond at some point as she just tired to looked like or you're tired was like no sorry just somebody else he's like no it's just boring yeah it is honestly kind of boring but yeah anyways yeah you've better you're gonna have to do it so anyways perfect a child so she was like yeah i think that's gonna be seen as like unnecessary sort of barbaric not like as like scientifically sound as like eventually we'll be able to kind of like almost like inc incubator the baby and just like deliver the baby through like essentially a machine that the a baby will be sort of like grown and delivered that way and i have you met someone who's had a surrogate yeah i've many people have a who had surrogate yeah i have and they've acknowledged that they don't feel out they didn't love the kid the same as the other one really pretty first of all did you ask of course i asked of course is that not the that's that's obviously the first thing you're gonna ask when to about it boy there's like a there's like a handful of questions for so there's a handful of questions which is a like obviously how much does that cost you're gonna run yeah yeah other women yeah where do you find them and then like what did you do like what was the relationship like and then like my fourth question is like did they ever try to hold the baby hostage yeah dude i could still imagine you think the worst possible surrogate because you would micro manage their lifestyle like hey it's my baby in there you yes you better get up here on this treadmill mode but the the surrogate can basically hold you your hostage right because you'll do anything you'll like whatever you want like i i have to give you what you want because i will do anything for that kid but then the last the fifth question was like alright but like did you love the kid as much as the other ones and the answer was at first no definitely not i definitely didn't they got honest with me and i so i don't know if i believe this is gonna be a thing but yeah i feel like if there's the option it's kinda like the epi girl like so i think when we were in the hospital so my wife's is been insane and wants to only do natural birth like feel all the pain for no reason but she's like you know she's like that's how i get down i'm like oh wow oh my god we or so i guess opposite to do what like i've taken the light version of the girl he'll boy pain you twenty girl yeah already i'll take it we're not gonna yeah you journey already open it up so but the doctor had said ninety she's like eighty five to ninety percent of the patients in their hospital do the epi because like you know makes sense like if you can you know not feel that level of pain you it's it's easy to see why somebody would choose that so you know if you just sort of extrapolate from there you're like cool would you like to also not have the nine months of pregnancy like going on in your body if there was that option like you really think people wouldn't take it i think people would take it yeah i think some people would but i just don't i don't know if it's really look at the oz olympic thing dude if you give people the magic pill the way out like people take that shit right like if you get the cost right that's a good point i i do love or going to avoid pain alright they're gonna avoid discomfort and pain where they can i i ordered door three times a day like you think that people aren't gonna do this they're gonna yeah i you're right actually i love magic pills whenever i hear someone that's who's selling like a magical cure or a magic pill i'm i'm in probably won't work but tell me everything oz zen is a little bit of a magic pill when i when i was taking it it was quite magical did you take it no no i haven't taken it you should it's awesome i guess i'm also kinda crazy in that way where i'm like well then it wouldn't be as satisfying like i wanna do this on my own yeah yeah but having abs is pretty sick so totally totally agree two or three failed diets away from from breaking and going on the epic alright what else are we got i wanna tell you about this thing that when people read it they probably didn't have the same reaction as i did but i think they should so there's this guy it's called the greatest scam ever written and it's about a copywriter who ran the scam his name was pat patricia runner and so it started basically in the nineties where he originally saw this ad have you ever heard of this book called the lazy man's way to riches yes so i don't remember when that originally came out i think in the sixties but the lazy man's way to riches is a really famous ad it sold like three or four million copies of this book and the ad is famous amongst copywriter because it was really successful and a lot of the copywriting that we used now for the internet they kinda originate from that ad and this guy pat patricia runner he saw this ad and he was poor and he was like i don't wanna be porn anymore it's pretty amazing that this guy just convinced me to buy this book based off of just like you know twenty paragraphs of tax that's amazing i wanna learn how to do that and so he did so he starts studying copywriting and he reads a newspaper about this lady named like madam du maria du was her name and basically there was a story about her and how there was a murder in the caribbean and how they couldn't find where the body is and she was a psychic and she led the people to where the body was and i don't know if that's actually true she actually did that but it was in the newspaper that that happened and so he contacted her it was like look i wanna side create this psychic company and i want you to be the face and i'm gonna give you five percent of profits forever and you really don't even need to do anything other than like let me use your face occasionally and that's it so she signs up for it and he starts creating these ads where he would mail people these letters that looked like it was typed out and it was from maria du and it would use these amazing like bits of copy so like the thing would say like the opening line was if you've got a special bottle of bubbly that you've been saving for celebrating great news now the times now is the time to open it up and that would be like the opening line and it was a nine page letter that he would send to people and he would say like you know send me forty dollars or fifty dollars and we will like you you you'll have good luck it was basically like you send money and you get nothing and then eventually it was like oh you said forty dollars we're gonna keep sending you more letters and they would send like two letters a day sometimes so someone would some oftentimes would receive two letters and they would send like an ad for some vitamin that you would need to take and recipients basically it said the recipients were urged to reply and close a check or money order for fifty dollars to receive a mysterious bit of power and lock in order to attract money as and then also they would after they accepted the money they would hit a document called a guide to my new life that included winning lottery numbers and so this guy did this and he did it for so well that he was making twenty million dollars a year doing this and eventually the thing ran for ten years and it made two hundred fifty million dollars and then the government swoop in and they're like dude this is fraud and so now he's in jail and he's waiting sensing but he might get up to life in prison so like he's looking at like at least like twenty years of prison for this and he they were like why why'd you do this he's like i was just so attracted to copy writing and with writing he told the reporter this is all from this an article from called the walrus there's was a great article and they show you like what the ads look like but we'll talk about that a second but he goes with writing you could get the attention of someone and at the end after just a few minutes that person sends you a check to get a project to get a product to an address or company that they've never heard of and when i read stories like this that should be the takeaway which is not like this criminal is bad but how do i use this amazing copywriting stuff actually for good and if you click on the article you'll see the envelopes would have these amazing things like we're on the back of the envelope it would say something like after you've sealed this envelope we will be the only one to have ever opened it and it says please leave the following blank and it says here's the day we received it here's the time that we received it and the recipient who's supposed to be maria du would have to check the box in order to like say like yep i've opened it and they put all these little like strange like tactics of getting someone's to convince and believe what they were saying it's incredibly fascinating so it's called the the the publication they did that article on this guy called the walrus it's really good because you should read this and think like copywriting is amazing this guy was a fraud obviously so that's bad but whenever he did do that for good shit and it's awesome it's a really fascinating article about this guy but yeah now he's gonna get sentenced to like it looks like twenty years of prison and you know who else did this this great copywriter great copywriter gary hal you remember gary hal so yeah what why did he go jail i i didn't actually know it was tax tax something yeah tax i think tax ant also basically he would sell this product i think it was called a family what is it called a suit of arms what's it called a crest like a family crest he would sell this product where it's like you mail in like par and then you get mail back like a crest i don't know if it's like a graphic but he just didn't fulfill the orders he just took the money and like bounced it was just like easy to do that too to to just give him a crest like yeah he just took the on fiber he was just too early yeah and so he went to prison i think for like ten years and that's where he wrote this really good book where it's like he wrote letters to his son on copy and that's called the letters from bo i guess bo was the name of the prison that he was in but these copy writers it's really cool how you're able to pull this shit off and you by the way people act like you can't do this anymore because people are smarter that's not true you one hundred percent can still pull off all this it's very fascinating i'm with you i think this is one way that we are very very similar where we both read these things i have the same sort of like unexpected reaction which is some blend of like excitement and admiration not for the crime but for the the tools that led to like you know it's the same still it definitely do eleven it's like robbing a bank i like i like it i like the i like what it goes in dropping that bank right it's like you shouldn't like the criminal in this case but you are attracted to the skill to the clever nest to the to the guy that goes into doing something like every guy who saw lin to d cap in wolf wall street or catch me if you can was like hey bob can i can you give me one of your checks i wanna see if i can actually change the numbers on it like everyone like do you know what i mean like everyone who saw that was do the same thing or like everyone looked up like you know stratford oak jordan be staying after they wall street movie like everyone that attracted the cards or whatever right now right they're like oh i counting cards how does that i can do that you had a great bit of copy that i read on facebook the other day you you go you go it's the more shirtless pictures i i post the more free protein i'm sent some asked me to some asked to pay me to post i've never done that and i don't intend to but here's are some brands that i use blah blah there you go that's right we may be horrors in the par household but we're certainly not so good where did you get that i stole that bra gold so our goal that tv show entourage so every great copywriter does the same thing where you do this too you hear phrases you hear phrases and you store them and you just store them it's a every single person who's good at writing you have a bank that you just we called a swipe file but i remember even when i was in sixth grade watching entourage at sunday night at ninth pm on hbo i remember hearing that i go that's mine i'm stealing that one and you just wait for that perfect opportunity to use those lines dude i have my my it's literally called you said you said phrases literally my sheet it's called my note is called phrases and i just have so many good ones here i love it because what people don't know is like phrases are really important so i'm on this with hampton actually where we're trying to create like our mantra or like with every type of community it's basically a cult or a so where you like you need like a phrase that summarizes it either the crest you need a crest i need a crest like i need something and i've been like tinkering with phrases and it's so important to like nail a phrase and like there's so many like really good phrases like for example i'm reading this book about martin luther king's assassination and he was assassinated while well basically he was at this protest where garbage workers black garbage workers were were wanted to be treated better and their phrase was just i am and it was underlined i am a man and like that like that one phrase is distributed like a you know i'm not i'm not a slave anymore i'm a man treat me like a man and so i just it's just like all these phrases and i just like we'll see a phrase even i remember writing that i am a man we are mostly man that's too touchy of a subject that's a whole another thing but anyway i love these like beautiful phrases i love these beautiful phrases what are you you workshop in a couple right now you wanna do a lot little live workshop so one that has gotten shut down but i love it which is ct confidential confidentiality transparency and commitment so ct and and just you got see so you miss one meeting your band we've actually kicked three people out already because we've heard that they've communicated with outsiders of like some confidential information but ct is what i'm trying to which is what i'm trying to get stock make a thing yes it's it's not becoming a thing as of late but yeah what else we got well that's it that that's the only one that's the hard it work over there i feed dude it's it's hard because gonna be rushed it's hard to coming up with the phrase like one are the phrases what are some ones that you're inspired by so you said the i am one what are some other ones that you think are are well done well this other one is is they're calling it core which is like commitment openness respect and one other thing i don't know what the east stands for but core and core is not sticking with me but i'm i'm i'm trying to be open minded core is not sticking with me because four things to remember is a lot more like values then it's not like your it's like values yeah it's values just you're you're slogan so one thing i've been thinking about is no one nothing no one never where i was like that nothing no one never never which is like is this confidential nothing no one ever dude like yes like everything everything it's nothing no one have never you can never talk about what's going on so i'm pulling around it nothing no one never i like that one yeah yeah yeah nice but that one but that one the little some for me i like that yeah didn't to get you going go what are some other interesting ones i there's not like that many that are intriguing to me to be honest but i'm i'm trying to figure out like how to do it it's really hard just creating that shift from scratch it's way harder than it looks or i'm just not talented but like are there any good ones that you like you know the one thing i heard about like on the value side that i was stuck with me was a value is useless without acknowledging the trade off so like you know most companies when they do their kind of like values they'll be like respect honor integrity which is stupid because like what's the opposite it's is that of course yeah like a you said nothing that's of interest you've acknowledged no like sacrifice in that you and is just generic and so it's not memorable it's not memorable it's not useful because it's like it's just an of course type of statement whereas you know facebook did one that that stuck which is move fast and break things it's beautiful if moved faster and break things was so good and the reason why was because it acknowledged the downside of moving faster sometimes you're gonna break shit and like they said yeah yes we take that we will we'll air on the side of that we'll we will take that trade off and so i think that values are only useful when you acknowledge when you when it bake into it the opinionated trade off right like that the fact that yep there there are pros and cons to this and our opinion is that this is the pro that matters right and and that we're down we we will live with this downside because that big because that's what shows you what you value like for example if you're somebody who's really high integrity you're gonna you're gonna let's say there's is you know opportunity to take you're gonna not take you're gonna have to sacrifice things that could go your way because your high integrity this is like michelle obama had one that that kind of what's it's gotta it's gotta be like painfully truthful painfully true exactly so she did that when they go low we go high which is like kind of acknowledges that like you all they go low it hurts you wanna hit them back but no we go high right when they go low we go ahead that's another example of one that's like i like i don't know when she said that but that's like more than five years ago i still remember that a lot of people repeated that kind of like to make fun of her but politics people make fun of everything but like i do think there was something in that that was like more real than just like we stand for respect it's like okay cool that doesn't mean anything to anybody when you say that it's like we're all numb to those sorts of things like subway eat fresh and we print grow marks onto our chicken because it's not really grilled like you know it's like yeah alright well that's what they should really say it's like it's looks fresh but it ain't you know we my high school had a great one that i've always remembered it was men we were in all boys school and it was meant for others and they just did such a good job of like nailing that into our brains just you gotta be a man for others there's like i could be dating up too yeah you're right and so i remember meant for others i like that but it's been really challenging so i i guess i gotta go find some more phrases but but yeah i gotta i gotta i gotta make that better do you have any that you use for any of your companies you know of your was what was milk rose did milk road have one no but i don't think you need one at the beginning by the way the beginning i don't think you need i i think you do need certain north stars like you know you started the hustle you were like call bullshit free news yeah you were like this is like your no nonsense or no you're you're at your smart friend tell you what happened in a no bullshit way that was a really good like north star guiding principle that you could just say okay cool and so like we stole a version of that for the bill road because what would what ended up happening here's like a tactical where way that started to drift the top story and all the news news things would have been about like some arbitrary bullshit like some maybe it was like a regulatory thing or maybe it like like kind of boring regulatory thing or it was like some layer two blockchain on on on like some layer two protocol on top of some like obscure blockchain did this thing and we were right about it and i would read it because at this time i was like you know i was like the editor i i really never was the writer from milk crowd but i read it i and i would just call ben and i'd be like dude what like are you interested in this he's like well not really but i mean it seem to be like i mean it's a top story that's by other news alice i was cool but like if you weren't into it like i was here's the tell you text me about this like would you text me and tell me about this and would i be interested but it's already baked into you wouldn't even text me if you didn't if you you would only text me if you knew i'd be interested so i was like let's just use that as the test like the litmus test is basically would you text me about this thing that happened if i was like yeah was what's new crypto right now like if that's not the thing that don't put it in the newsletter even if other people are writing about it and when we made that shift all of the like metrics kinda went up because people just naturally would resonate with that better because we had like a guiding principle for what what goes in and what goes out and i think that's the other thing that goes that's really useful is it's really easy to talk about what goes in what's important is to say what goes out and i do this with like strategy planning documents too like if i like i wrote up a strategy for our e com business i think everybody should do something like this by the way i wrote it down i wrote here's the six bets that we have made this year we're making this year and i i write them down first so for example i wrote the things called big bets and i shared this document with everyone i said big bet number one was we didn't have anybody in like demand planning or inventory forecasting i was like it's pretty stupid that we don't have me anybody doing this because of that i think we have a ton of waste and we're miss like sometimes we're way under on products that people want sometimes we're way over and it just sits there and just ties up our cash i think that if we hire somebody who's got experience doing this we will get twenty thirty percent improvement on the bottom line literally just from that one hire that's bet number one and then we hire that person that we're seeing how it plays out at number two was like that's smart let's say like whatever i done without giving too much away let me say like part like this this type of partnership we're trying to go for this type of partnership with this other big entity we believe that if we do that it's gonna have this effect that's the bet we're making we'll know if it's successful if x happens just wrote debt wrote this down and so the whole strat company strategy for the year is one page long and it's just six like sentences it's like here's the situation here's the bet here's the situation here's the bet and i just wrote that out and then with that at the bottom i wrote and here's the bets we are not making that we otherwise reasonably could have so for example we're not launching on amazon because if you're because even though that would clearly add to the bottom line but if we're launching on amazon that's gonna take resources away and see those other six bets that's gonna take all of our attention this year so we're saying no to that we're saying no to this other thing we're saying no to this other thing all of which were totally reasonable you could make a case for but we decided not to do them because we don't wanna spread ourselves too thin and it was actually that not doing section like the the first part was useful but the second part was even more useful and i think that people should should highlight those like you know it's not focus is not what you say yes too two focus is the hundred good ideas you say no to and so i think when you take that principle and you apply it that that's where you find the interesting stuff like whether it's in your company marketing or whatever what what are what are you calling that in e commerce playbook oh i i just like the bets like big bets that's what i call it what are the big bets that we're making this year and we'll see it i i wrote it the i also wrote at the top like we don't think that all of these are gonna pan out the way we expect and what do you know ira one or two are gonna either fail or we won't even execute on because one or two winners will suck up a bunch of our energy i expect that to happen i expect the middle four to work and maybe you know plus or minus twenty percent on how well we think they should work so like some will slightly under perform our expectations expectation some will slightly over perform one one or two of the six bets will either fail completely or we won't execute well enough because our attention got sucked away by the other ones at one or two should have a huge payoff that's the distribution if we if they all just work as expected we didn't really bet wildly enough right it's kinda like the goals thing that you don't wanna hit one hundred percent of your goals you wanna hit maybe like seventy percent of your goals that shows that you stretched far enough without overs stretching alright we're out of here sam hit him with the line that is the pod yeah i feel like i could rule word i know i could be what i want to from at all in and like a day's off on a road travel never looking back