that texted your brother i said hey i'm about to record with your brother and he goes he got progressively more truthful he goes tell him i said hi then he goes tell him i said honor the ollie name then he goes and tell him to stop ellis is is it fine so yeah i've delivered the message i feel like i could rule the world i know i could be what i want to put all in in like a days off on a road less traveling alright we have mo ali here you've been on the pod before people know you because you created native deodorant which is sold everywhere i look in target online in my wife's bathroom it's there everywhere so congrats you built that you bootstrap that business yourself literally like off of a kitchen table to a hundred million dollar exit to pro gamble well you spent a couple years there you currently you invest in a bunch of e commerce things and non commerce things you have a podcast called limited supply which is great and then you you also do you you and your brother are sort of like business sharks and so you know if i just say hey there's like a there's a hotdog dog stand going out of business over here you'd be like let me get my jacket let's go you own real estate you own a bunch of random things and so always fun to have you on man thanks for coming well thanks for having me super excited to be here is that the intro you want by the way or do you feel like i let i didn't do justice in one angle no that sounds that sounds of like more justice than i deserve well you're also good at one lines you have a lot of like one liners you're you're very good with language you you've said a few things you said my two favorite words in english english language distressed assets and then at one time we were talking to this person it was you and me in this person and they were explaining what they do and it was like a supplement company and how great it was gonna be and how they're raising all this money and she she or them or he whatever walked out the room and you said that person's business is one google away from me ruining it yeah yeah you have like a couple other classics i read an interview with you where it's and where you said you said i forgot be phrase it you go i was put on earth to do one thing raise earnings per share per share yeah that wasn't me that said that actually it was the founder of some other company i've forgot it was and it was such a great quote i loved it so i stole that quote yeah you're like killed him and now it's mine that's right yeah yeah the other one that i i i attribute to you i i wasn't there for this story but i've told the story to like hundreds of young entrepreneurs and they get a kick out of every time which is i was like yeah mo started native deodorant it's super successful now and when he first had the idea he told people i'm gonna create a natural deodorant brand they're like mo like do do you know what anything about do you wear deodorant boys what's going on are you talking about you're gonna create a deodorant company and you said yeah to i know nothing about deodorant today but in six months i'll know everything there is to know about deodorant and that that's right that attitude to me is like that's at the core of what we do on this podcast so don't even know if that's a real story by the way but i'm gonna keep telling it that's a real story i remember i was in san francisco i was with one of my law school classmates and it was her boyfriend at the time our her husband who told me that and he's like you know what the hell are you doing here he he worked at pinterest and he's like what the hell are you doing starting a deal business i've never heard anybody do something said ludicrous and i still remember the bar we were sitting at where it happened alright so let's do a little segment and i'm gonna call story time with mo ollie so okay cue the music okay so i'm gonna ask you a question i want you to give you your answer boys what is the what it what is the worst way that you've ever made money yeah you know this is this is great story i think we we don't tell enough or my brother and i don't tell enough which is when we were growing up we own gas stations and this is really a family way we made money and not my particular way anyway we own a bunch of gas stations and we would cash checks for people as a service so if you brought in a check sean and you're like hey look this is my payroll check it's two hundred dollars for this week or two thousand dollars this week we would charge you a percentage of that check and give you cash for it and we would take the check and deposited into the bank and by the end of our gas station careers we were doing this at massive scale like one of our stores would cash two hundred and fifty thousand dollars with of checks on any given friday like a quarter million dollars of cash was going through our hands we'd have like wells fargo coming over and giving us cash and you know we'd be giving it like you we do these crazy that like a bust of hispanic immigrants who are roof would come to our store the door would open and like it felt like forty immigrants just came out to cash their checks with us but a long time ago like what happened early on in our check cashing in careers was this guy named fm porter came in with a check for his business and the check was like you know two thousand dollars and we charged a lot because i don't remember why we charged a lot but we gave them like nineteen hundred dollars we charged five percent of the check and we were gonna deposit the check and earn in two thousand dollars and you know traditionally what happens is if you're cashing a chat doesn't happen so much anymore but it used to happen fifteen years ago you'd endorsed the back of it and you'd deposited the bank right so he endorsed the back of it we gave him the nineteen hundred dollars we deposited it and it bounced and we're like what the fuck this is a ton of money for us you know we were poor immigrants we're were working at this gas station probably in nineteen ninety seven earning forty thousand dollars a year with all five working at the how old were you i was probably like thirteen at the time twelve over thirteen at the time and like this was going on and so they're just are you i just imagine like thirteen year old boys like pacing smoking at cigars to be like what the fuck man like is that what it looked like i mean just like i i imagine you being the exact same way as you are now when you were well yeah i feel like i was the same way but i didn't have as much confidence so i couldn't take this cigar i i could've have ordered people around but anyway it checked bounced and we all freaked out and we tracked down this guy and we're like what the fuck we knocked down his door i've got what he looked he lived in like a small house you like you it was this local community it went knocked down his door we're like what the fuck fm importer this check just cash we're gonna kill you you gonna go we cops we don't know what to do we're broke out give us through muddy and he was like relax guys there's a prop like you know the check was made out to his business instead of him and so it took like forty five days to figure out all them a rig role to get the check made out to him instead of to his business then we cashed it and we deposited the money and i remember it went through the second time you know we made a hundred dollars on forty five days of we you know possibly losing two thousand dollars and i remember it went through and i told my brother hey it went through and he's like that was the easiest hundred dollars we've ever made and i remember it was like the worst one hundred dollars we've ever made he was just cashing and checks that were going bad and constantly being afraid that they were like this this was early on corey we weren't sure if we should do this as a service for our business it ended up being super profitable like when cash two hundred fifty thousand dollars of checks on a friday you're gonna make twenty five hundred to thirty five hundred dollars on that just for your business on that day alone but i remember early on we were taking all these risks and we're like what the fuck just happened we think that like you know not gonna be able to pay all rent for the apartment that my family lives in that's insane were you just going back to like math class after your shift like how were you were you going after school what was your how'd did you do this which of the gas station you mean yeah because you're like thirteen years old yeah yeah we'd go on the weekends like because you know like yeah we've got the weekends when i turned sixteen i could drive and i would go you know yeah after class or like on the weekends i wouldn't go every day even where i was sixteen years old but i'd probably know at least one weekend or maybe both weekends of the when i started having a new car certainly we're in the story we're in the story part of the show so let me ask you one thing that i don't know is true but i want you to confirm it so right by our office the one that you and i shared there was a cafe called native coffee i think it was it was the native cafe native juice native juice native juice it had the same color and the same logo as native deodorant did you and and it was right by the bart stop i believe so if i'm imagining what happened you went on you were on part and you were just walking around soma and you saw it and you go there it is that's mine now is that two or false that car that's both no it's not it's not bought the story we gotta put the picture up because it they're identical it's an identical yes it's you're on your phone right now and to the listener search native juice san francisco actually think they changed their branding in the last three years but you could still find old logos on their yelp yelp page yeah so the quicker hey it's a little fun you're like it was actually a block away from where i lived so i'd walked by all the time but you know the color i'm not sure if the color was the same i know the font was the same we actually didn't steal the font from them although i readily admit we did steal the font we still the font of our website from harry's so if you look at harry's font it's the exact same font as ours and if you look at the colors of our site it was and i'm not sure if it's still list the exact same colors the casper had so like you know when i was launching native it took me about you know three days to do the whole website and i was just like okay you know what i'm not gonna do is hire a logo designer and spread of fortune building a logo and spending a lot money on branding i list steal the logo that harry's has which is just their name written out at a font i'm gonna do the same thing i can't steal their colors as well because that'd would be too too blatant so i'm just gonna steal the colors of another website which was casper at the time because they were doing really well and so that's how the that's how the font and the colors came together to be what native is today but i i would walk by that store all the time and like believe it or out right next to native juice c is the post office and i was packing all of the deodorant in my own apartment for the first six months or year of the business and so i would walk by native juice go with these bags of like you know filled with boxes of deodorant and said i'd go to the post office and i'd hand them to the post office and they were like is this from next door is this like the juice company you guys are it says native on the packaging and i was like this is not the same native it's a different one and then what would happen is like you know two and a half years into the business native juice c cape like the woman who started that business came to our office and she's like i'm getting so many fucking phone calls for your business for customer service issues where's about package all the shit people are just googling native san francisco we didn't have a phone number we i think they'd still does have a phone number posted it so she would be like i'm getting forty phone calls a day for you this is gonna stop you gotta figure out a way to stop this and look we can't we don't know what to do like you know people just google made of san francisco and your name comes up it's that we're not saying call you and so she came in like several times and then you know i was like i told doorman of the building i like don't let her up any longer and that's seem to put it into it if she has juice accept it but don't let her yeah that's right yeah i'm alright then if part we would still order her choose from her to our office all the time but i was like i'm not sure if they like this or not yeah yeah definitely agree that you definitely drank a lot of her i have to imagine but yeah that's probably true too yeah but the reality is we like the the logo didn't come from date of juice c it came from harry's she just happened to also copy the harry's that's why she might have to do the same thing that's right yeah yeah alright so you said you had some ideas for us what business ideas do you have on your brain right now okay i i thought about a lot of these ideas for a while i think the first idea that someone should start if i if i was starting a business today really excited about it and start with a stock market for all residential real estate i would say okay i'm gonna start buying residential real estate and you know selling shares of that real estate that's rented outside i'd buy rental homes and i would sell shares of that real estate sort of like a traditional lp would invest but i'd make a really liquid market on my site so i'd say you know what rents have gone up you paid ten thousand dollars you're waiting for us to sell this home it'll be like you know if you buy an apartment building today if you're in an lp an apartment building you're waiting for the gp to sell the apartment building before you get or you can realize all of your cash back you might be getting a steady stream of income every quarter but when the gp sells the apartment building that's where you get most of your money back just create a liquid market for all of these things and i'm slowly start buying every single house in a neighborhood and i would say you can only buy and sell shares of this house on this platform and then what i would do is i would empower local entrepreneurs to buy and sell houses on the platform themselves too i'd say okay you know what sean is gonna buy a house he lives in this neighborhood and see in california he can buy a house put it on this platform raise money and buy and sell and other people can buy and sell shares of this house through this platform and then sean will get reviews just like on amazon and like if he does a really good job people will give them five star reviews because they're getting a lot of money from it he doesn't really shitty job people give him one star reviews because he's doing a really shitty job and then when you go to under write new deals people will be like sean is trustworthy sean is not trustworthy and i think people have tried this in the past with things like realty shares and a bunch of other shitty models of this i think they've done a terrible job in part because they're not doing good job underwriting in part they're doing it they're they're betting on commercial properties and in part because they're not creating a liquid market for it and so i think that when i think of like the biggest idea possible i think that this idea could realistically own you know two hundred years from now this business should own the majority of real estate in the united states so let's break that down so you said sure the reason that the current kinda like by a fraction of you know of real estate or buy shares in real estate which there's several or crowdfunding funding for real estate there's like fund drives realty shares you're saying the problems that they have is let's take them one by one so you said they're focused on commercial why is residential better than commercial for this oh way easier is here in terms of steady income streams so like if you build if you let's say you buy a building that starbucks is using and has a five year lease on when starbucks leaves that building it's unclear who will be a good fit for that building like it's not easy to rent that thing out while if it's a house everyone in the world needs a three bedroom two bath house in neighborhood and so it's a lot easier to re let properties that are residential as opposed to commercial i invested in the company somewhat in the space it was called doors it was it it didn't work out but the guy who started previously started stay alfred which i don't know if you remember that one or not but basically you could it was like a it was an auction website for homes and there they had two issues one it which is i'm shocked by this but people just didn't wanna buy a home online it was just like a big it was a it's a big thing that they couldn't figure out to address i think someone will figure it out but the second thing was negotiating the whole broker industry which like it seems like the broker industry i know there was just like a big settlement like five days ago sure broker industry has like has this industry by the balls as it seems it's real it seems really challenging yeah and it wasn't a settlement it was a jury verdict of two billion dollar that went against the supplementation of realtors militaries like it yeah yeah and so like yes the i think the broker industry is broken but the rent the the like the liquidity market for real estate investing is huge and when you think about it like you know all these retail investors are now like let me invest in a startup up you know crazy it is for for you to invest in like native when it's early on like i have no fucking idea what i'm doing i don't know if i'm gonna get it hit by a bus tomorrow i might just be like fuck you know what like i'm eating this crazy girl and she wants to go to hawaii for three months fuck this this is gonna be a way this gonna be way more fun than running a business for the next three months so investing in like if you're can invest in startups well like you know you know it's way safer than investing in the start investing in real estate down your street where you're like i know who's gonna rent this house i like you know i can monitor it i can drive by it it's a tangible piece of property like you know this guy doesn't pay rent somebody else will it's not going anywhere it's way safer and i think what i when i think of retail investors i think retail investors would be way more excited about investing the local community they live in and be like look yeah i to share of this house than they do being like i invested in this pakistani guy who really looks and he seems not to be that reliable and so you you have like this idea why do you think that the person who's buying these rental properties wants to do this just because they want the liquidity so they can go buy more properties like what what what happens here and how much of the property you think would go on the platform versus they own you know like would they like in an ipo you know they they issue twenty percent of their stock or whatever to the public what would you what would it be for the house yeah i think it's really the gp could be like look i'd wanna like the guy who's sort of underwriting the deal and sponsoring the deal for better for worse is could be like look i'm gonna put it this house costs cost two hundred thousand dollars i'm gonna put in fifty thousand dollars of my own money or i'm gonna put in twenty thousand dollars my own money and in that same way that other like it right now if you invest in a much larger if you invest our private equity fund one of the common questions you'll ask is the guys who are running the private equity fund how much of their own money is at risk because that means that they care and believe in their private equity fund similarly here could be the same question how much of your wealth are or how much investment are you putting in this real estate when you purchase it and the reason that the sponsors would wanna do this is several hold one is yeah they wanna create a liquid market they they want raise money right like they want raise money from retail ambassadors and it's really hard to raise money from retail investors two is they can buy and sell shares of later on for themselves as well they could be like you know what i bought forty thousand dollars worth of this house five years later that forty thousand is worth eighty thousand i want some cash off the table but i still want some liquidity i'm this sell forty thousand dollars of shares in this house and keep some money in invested as well so i think for the same reason that people wanna invest in the stock market or you know sponsors invest in their own deals oh you know sponsors in this would invest as well so mo i'm gonna pitch you three other real estate ideas in rapid succession i want you to tell me your favorite to your least favorite alright the first one is this company i didn't invest in but i i i know how it's i haven't talked to the guy in a while but i i regret not investing because i i thought it was a good idea it's called home option so what he's doing is guy goes to sam sam owns a house he goes to sam and says sam i know you're not trying to sell the house right now but here's the deal i'll give you twelve hundred dollars right now and all i asked for is that when you do decide to sell you let me you know i own the option to be the broker on the house so like you know i'll be your agent and and actually what i do is i'm not myself the agent but i partner with top agents in your network and they don't know when you're gonna sell your house they don't wanna keep having a knock gonna door and bother you so i'll give you cash today so that they can be your broker you know and one of these top agents gets the right to be your broker twenty years from now whenever you sell and they're just buying up options the the right to sell these homes because of a home would you sell the know the brokers take let's just let's just say the sell side's is gonna take three percent you know they're they're you let's averages fifteen thousand dollars or something for that for that sale they're willing to buy that option today for a thousand dollars and so that's idea number one home options go go out there and buying that alright i did two in is yep i invested in it the only thing that could've have made works about that investing in this is that sam best in this is are doing well because i i every like three months i think about this business i think that's gotta i went through my email and i haven't gotten an update from them in like a a while so that's not a good sign yeah which unfortunately means it's probably not or it's absolutely crushing one of the two you know i i i used to think that's always a bad sign but then i started hanging out with mo brother and he never he's like investor update why would i i'm gonna kill in this business why should i tell you about how it's going i need to know this yeah that's right do are you that way too boys do you do you like yeah with you provide that patriot one of our investors was this guy named jeff holland from seventh generation and he's like you know what would be nice is like a monthly or quarterly investment update and i was like here's your money back i'm you know you i do and i will never chat until i call you and if you're doing okay with that you anymore i don't never yeah yeah i'm like i was like i couldn't care like i will never send you one piece of information about this business unless i want to unless i need something for do you think it's good high good hygiene to like you know just kind of even for your own thoughts to be like how are we doing what's let me take a step back here for a second and just write down kind of for my own clarity of thought or no i think that is good hygiene but i don't think you necessarily have to share that with other people especially with other people like you know i think the three of us are probably investors in similar businesses and you know oftentimes i walk around and people are like here the numbers of this other business and i'm like you know somebody has leaked to them and yeah i'm i i tried to be really careful as an investors to never leak information because i know i would never want my information leaked but like that information gets around the street and i you know i've seen so many startups launch because they're like i heard this guy was doing really well so i should just do the same thing like many competitors of athletic greens exist because everyone's like yeah we know if athletic greens is doing it really well right what are the other two sean alright second have an idea does your brother's idea actually i don't know if you told you this one pipe for real estate so i think i could share this now because he he's talked about us like i know a year ago and it didn't end doing it pipe for real estate the idea here is you're a landlord you're gonna collect rent every month pipe came through and was like hey let me turn those monthly checks into one annual check and i'll take a eight percent fee off the top so let's say you were gonna get a hundred grand of rent from this property i'll give you ninety two thousand today i get to keep the hundred and you get you get ninety two thousand that you can go invest in your next property you or or put into tenant improvements that will let you raise rents or something like that here's cash flow today upfront so pipe for real estate real estate is a huge market why why do landlords have to wait to collect the check no more waiting is our slogan alright now i idea number three final idea i did invest in this one so steady capital so steady that capital is their their url so they were like hey look everybody knows that most will most millionaires build their wealth through real estate that's that is a time tested you know approach to wealth building most people will actually even want to they would love to own a rental property in beginning of rent check every month but most people don't know don't trust themselves to find a property you know vet it buy it manage it all of that and so they were like we'll do a robinhood hood for real estate type of thing where you just decide how much monthly you wanna put into real you say i'm i'm gonna put it away five hundred dollars a month into real estate and they basically let you take the five hundred bucks they'll put it into a real estate project that they are kind of vetting from like proven operators and then they every month they'll say hey here's an you know you got a hundred and twelve dollars of you know rental income from your property this month yeah or you you now own you know pieces of these six properties in six different markets and you're making six hundred dollars a month of rental income like i i put five grand into one deal and i just get this check every month now and it's actually the first real estate that i've done that i didn't own because otherwise it just stayed on my to do list alright so those are the three ideas home options pipe for real estate and rob yeah the yeah steady capital jimmy ranked them from your most favorite to your lease favorite ahead okay i i what i wasn't like it i was expecting home options would be number three when you told me about it but in fact it's number one steady capital and then pet for real estate and i'll tell you why pipe for real estate exists and it's just called the cash out ref refine like you know yeah i already exist where you're like look i'm getting real you know i'm getting money from these lamb or from these tenants and i can take cash off the out of the property like you know what's not gonna happen for pipe for real estate if someone's gonna come in and be like wow you're a hundred percent lever up with this debt let me also give you more cash you were already paying for the debt you know you're already lever so i think pipe for real estate exists and i think you know mark lo started this company and you just raised three hundred fifty million dollars did you guys read this thing i'm not entirely sure what it is but it appears to be like a restaurant delivery business and so i i feel like i'm not sure if this is the case but it seems like that's sort of like a a startup up branding to something that kinda exists in the this space i feel like pipe for real estate is the say mark bought blue apron oh she bought blue apron i knew this a sulfur under two million dollars i didn't know he was the cash behind yeah i he bought it yeah so he is you i think you're you've nailed it that sounds like that's to he's doing but go ahead yeah home options is i i like you know i think the hard part of that home options is right now like particularly in the last week right now we don't know what we wheelchair commissions are gonna look like in the future and you also just don't know how long an option this is as the twelve hundred dollars in the ground today for twenty years or thirty years that's a really long period of time think what he's doing yeah is he's just resell it right away or at least that's what i would do is i would buy the option i would bundle them i'll be trying and i would go sell them to the brokerage tomorrow you know and just say hey you you can hold these and you know i try trying to get i don't if the economics all i'll work i don't know the brokers are willing to do things like that yeah but like that's the idea yeah i like it it's innovative and like different and like you know unclear what it'll happen but like you could revolutionize an industry that you know has been the same for the last hundred and fifty years god damn it sam gonna be a part of that revolution it can also be the six percent drops down to two percent in the next you know three months because you know the national association realtors is almost certainly bankrupt at this point what was the settlement and what's changing about this broker situation yeah wasn't a settlement it was two billion dollars i'm not entirely sure what what it was it was like price fixing across realtors basically saying hey you can't be on ml unless you agree to pay everyone like a percent or five percent brokerage something to that effect gotten to into the details of it but like the judgment was two billion dollars and i read this wall street journal article where whilst the judgment was had big plaintiffs firms you you know filed lawsuits against the national association realtors at every single state and they're like we think that we'll get forty billion dollars in judgments as a result of this which will certainly bankrupt that organization can you talk a little bit about this founder card thing because i know you've been tweeting about that for like two years now and i'm i and that actually surprised me that you're interested in it you know there's i feel like there's there's a a club that i'm a part of like a founder card sort of thing that i'm a part of that i can't talk about the at the name of it because they would asked me not to but what like as a result of paying my hundred dollar a month and monthly membership fee i get a discount that's worth like you know eight hundred dollars month to myself what do you get a discount for just saas software that i'm like really want that i have to pay for but do you have to be a new a a lot of those cards you have to be a new customer no this one you don't yeah wow just pay a hundred dollars a month and they're like here's discounts to like let's say nail chip that let's say shopify and like all these other saas platforms than an e commerce company what might wanna be a parting of or might want discounts too and so then you go and say great i paid a hundred dollars i get all these discounts and i'm gonna go use those discounts for for for for for my business and so you're never are gonna cancel that hundred dollars a month subscription because that hundred dollars is actually stating you a thousand dollars a month and i don't understand why there aren't more these for smaller niche industries and i think like e commerce is a great one like you know what p and g does they go and they they go to like snapchat and pinterest and facebook and they say look we're gonna spend fifty million two hundred and fifty million dollars across our portfolio on your platform but we need to discount because you know we're spending so much money and they get that discount they get it from facebook for sure because i've seen that i'm pretty sure pinterest and i'm pretty sure snapchat but i guarantee you they get it to facebook by discount for facebook because i've seen it i you know i saw when i was running native as a part of p and g and so i'm not sure why smaller businesses don't organized and say look we're spending this much let us also try negotiate discounts with platforms why don't we all negotiate a discount with y or with without ten or with post script or with cla and say look there's gonna be four hundred of us together a lot of us are gonna use this software but we need a big discount that's a lifetime let it's a like a lifetime monthly recurring discount and so sorry you have one of these for this is not an idea you're saying you have one of these cards but you're saying you it's like a secret like you don't they don't they don't want more people to have the card or what correct they would now want me to talk about who they are but yes as a result i get discounts to software that i wouldn't i'll get otherwise and cost me a hundred or a hundred and forty dollars a month why don't they wanna talk about it yeah great question i'm not entirely sure but i'm sure they would tell me not talk you think it dollar month well like there's yeah one more spidey some spidey sets is going off here you know like what's going on why i mean is this a shady thing sam this was this was your idea like you not your idea originally but like sam told i mean i don't know seven years ago when you were running the hustle you were like i'm trying to think of a new product and you had three ideas and i i remember one of them was basically trends which is the thing you ended up launching another one was this idea for the founders club car or whatever which was i think you were comparing it to the aa you're like for kinda like millennials or then i can talk about the aa in a second but yeah that was the second one what was the third one yeah you had one i don't remember that third one but and i thought the card was the best idea i was like oh you should for sure do this card if i had this thought and in fact actually now i'm just gonna do the card off of the have a fe audience because i'm like this is way better and it's a win win i and i i might be a few months ahead of you why didn't you do that card the reason why i didn't was i couldn't find i couldn't figure out entirely how to differentiate from all the other offerings that already existed it was also quite challenging to get in with some of the brands in order to negotiate bulk deals the argument being well you know these companies already spend with us why am i to give them a discount and i couldn't come up with like the perfect rebuttal for that and that like that that is where i i was trying to figure out how to make it happen and what is the rebuttal to that the rebuttal for that is your competitors are offering it right so you basically go get the number two yeah of every space and say hey we can move you some customers if you make this attractive and you go back to number one you say hey number two's is offering this and their people are moving you should match it yeah and like new people who get get in are good used number two instead of number one because they get the discount exactly exactly and we we continue to have new customers and we're just gonna keep telling them yeah go with this company because they offer you know a better the reason why i was interested in that is aa so aa i actually don't know what it stands for but it's a club for people above sixty or fifty i think fifty american association retired person yeah this a retired so i guess it's sixty they do about one and a half to two billion dollars a year in sales and they have millions of millions and millions and millions of members the way they make business revenue is think they only charge about a hundred dollars a year to be a member and like most everyone when you turn sixty you get an an invitation in your mail and what you do is you get discounted health insurance and they make another side of the business is making money it's basically an affiliate so i think they parted with united health and they have united health aa plan which is discounted plan but also a a plan specifically for whatever you know sixty plus people have and they are i think one of the largest lobbying groups in america it's a huge lobbying group they they they basically like kinda of shape the government in in some regard and so i thought that was super fascinating it's a really fascinating company that's existed for decades and is it gonna go away anytime soon and there's all already other businesses doing this like think about y comb we can get into a y comb i think they're like you get you know two hundred or fifty thousand dollars of aws credits you get a bunch of like straight processing charges for free and like those businesses are like you're gonna grow we're gonna make money at the end but it also makes a like you know when y comb is selling you on give you a hundred twenty thousand dollars for seven percent they're also like here are the other benefits that you get in this business right so anyway i'm a bore with this you wanna do one more yeah what's the other idea you had something around shopify for high end or something for high end d to see what what was that idea yeah sure you know shopify is fantastic i'm the big shareholder shopify i love them you i built my career on any commerce the reality is it's wonderful for businesses going from zero to fifty million dollars it's awful for businesses it's not awful but it's not good for businesses worth of a hundred million dollars that are ready to spend a lot more on improving their conversion rate on a custom checkout page and you know the shopify people were here they the shopify people were on this podcast with me they'd say that's crazy we have big businesses like face and all birds and a lot of other big businesses on it but the reality is there's so many lot luck you can't customize so much and it's so difficult particularly on the checkout page that i think there is room for somebody to come in and say i'm the build my own shopify of i'm the build shopify but for businesses doing north of a hundred billion dollars and there's a lot of businesses doing north quad billion dollars that have left shopify you know a way travel ritual vitamins because they're like look we've outgrown this platform where do they go probably look usually a custom built stack sometimes with like this backbone of an old brand of an old business called spree which i think was like this open source e commerce platform when you were growing your business but i don't think it's around anymore but the i like you know go often go to their own custom tech platform because they're like look we're doing enough business that this makes sense which is a pain to be ass it is a beta of the ass but like you know it's a pain of the ass is worth it when you're doing five hundred million dollars in revenue and a quarter you know quarter percentage point bump in conversion rate on your checkout page is gonna lead to an extra ten twenty million dollars in revenue it's it's it's it's completely worth it then and you know like shopify is one one page checkout like they launched that in the last six months that's been something that people have want for a really long time shopify subscriptions has been really bad like all the subscription platforms have been really bad until we're so i think shopify is trying to catch up on that larger about segment but i think they've done a lot of that that's not their focus their focus is you've decided you wanna start a business you go to you know in the shower you come downstairs and you start shopify store that business is doing a hundred million dollars in revenue you know there are solutions that are competitive were more competitive than shopify is and they're worth it because small changes in your website are gonna be worth so much and they're harder to do in shopify than they are to do another brand yeah candidly like you know nate it was a fifty million dollar covers business built on wordpress and the reason we did wordpress was because it was cheap way cheaper and because it allowed us a lot more customization we could do post purchase pop ups at add card pop ups at a time where you couldn't on shopify we could do subscriptions that didn't charge us an l the allowed to have subscriptions that you you still can't do on shopify you know we could ever our own servers which but you know you may or may not walk based on shopify could do with instantaneous page loaded which you couldn't do on shopify and so there were a lot of benefits for a business for it because it was open source versus shopify you use the three hundred dollar a year woo commerce which is like the steel the century and the miss of the century for wordpress three hundred dollars seat it's free it's free yeah i mean i used it too yeah i thought it yeah you know all those features that he just said were benefits that's not why he did it to be clear he picked it because he was like three thousand dollars for shopify outrageous over my dead body i would rather this business real the pretty had doing millions a year and we used woo commerce and i remember yeah it's owned by wordpress now i think and i remember like looking at wordpress revenue i'm like okay so wordpress controls a third of the internet and shopify makes this much money and yet they're giving this to me what a bunch of idiots you guys likes like you're it's a massive missed opportunity for wordpress and woo conference is great you just need to developer sometimes to help you do some stuff but it's still way cheaper than shopify that's right i'm like really it just goes to like you know we could we did a post purchase pop up at date which was after you click checkout we showed you a pop saying buy travel size deal over we've probably sold seven hundred thousand dollars of that travel size deal it's every single month and made you know four hundred thousand dollars in net profit off those size deodorant and we could only do that in wordpress we could not do that in shopify you you also had something you were like i would do shopify apps for india or something and on this interesting because our shopify app bill now granted i could go through and prune some apps that we're not using anymore that are probably still just recurring charging me but i think we spend like ten grand a month on shopify adam do you really it's insane because whatever you wanna do they're like oh would you like to collect email addresses pay me fifteen hundred dollars a month for this pop up like what are you talking about and they're like well your store's is big and it's like that doesn't matter this is an email pop well do what do you care how many people type into the form like google forms is free what what are you talking about and like every little thing like we added a a post purchase upsell and there was like nine hundred dollars a month and i was like what's happening why why would this be so expensive all the review platforms are crazy expensive shop apps or you know an absolute like rip off in the pricing totally and i think that if i were to if i were a developer india i'd be like i'm not hiring a team of you guys we're gonna knock off every single app and we're gonna charge twenty dollars a month and that's gonna be our entire business model is twenty dollars a month and like you know the other thing i'd say is the more apps you use the cheaper it gets so if you're using fiber apps instead of paying a hundred dollars you're paying seventy five dollars get the you know but there is no reason that just due no pop ups should be fifteen hundred dollars a month there's no reason that a a post purchase upsell should be a percentage of revenue and not thirty dollars a month and the reality is that everyone's tier percentages of revenue because you can make so much money doing that and this is software that like you know could have been written within a week or a week and a half by almost anybody and should be thirty dollars a month i talked to a guy i tried to buy this one shopify app that all it did was it added a maximum to your cart like a feature of people don't even think it's like why would i stop someone from buying lord it's like let's say you're doing like a limited edition thing you don't want like the reseller to go buy all your shit and these guys you for like seven years they've been doing like two million a year with a million dollar a million and a half dollars of profit just on one shopify app that just caps the maximum somebody could could buy of a of a unit and that that's kinda be like you know that should be like two lines of code or something later it's crazy but there are so many of these that that exist out there and people have smartly tried to roll some of these up yeah and how many of those i'm many customers of that app are probably customers who don't look at their bill on a every a monthly basis and they're like oh man getting charged two hundred dollars a month and i never think about it yeah yeah because it's it's built first you never without your credit card you just once you connect to shopify it's gonna pay for shopify yeah and then it's buried in the billing tab under all the stuff yeah there's definitely there's like low very low friction and like racking up those charges there's a massive business to be built here which is cl the top one hundred shopify apps and just charging a flat meat like you know might be a longer term business because you don't have a sales team and you're not going out calling everyone being like switch from you know yacht poe to me but it is every single new business is gonna go to you because it's way easier to use you have some controversy opinions do you have a lot of them a few of them data's is overrated wealth managers are just used car salesman you hate real twitter real estate i wanna hear some of your thoughts on on those things we'll start with we'll start with an easy one of data being over overrated what do you mean by that let's start with an easier one which is twitter real estate okay don't mind they're like well wait say say the unpopular your opinion what is it about twitter real estate it's full of complete shit yeah they're full of fraud and they're like i can't begin to tell you how many people where i like read their tweets some deals come in and i'm like you how is nobody calling you out on this like you know people like are you we give the listener perspective here so you own i it maybe dozens or hundred or a hundred hundred hundreds of either single family homes or multi family homes is that right that's right okay and then an investor in dozens of real estate deals through as being an lp okay so you that's your perspective that's my perspective i'm a you know an lp at a lot of the people you know people will be like did you un follow me because of my opinion on the middle east crisis and i'm like no i un followed you because you're a fraud and you're pretending like you're a good real estate investor and you're fucking complete criminal and i know it because i'm an lp here business i get like even now one of these toilet they're tweeting out returns they're like you're on returns and i'm like these are not returns that i've realized as an lp nlp in your d as an lp nlp in your business and you know they have you a gas seat like you know i'll be like hey we're like you know before interest rates were going up i was like with we have floating rate mortgages what the fuck is gonna happen when interest rates go up and these guys are like it's gonna be fine it's gonna be fine and now they're like actually we need more money and like you know startups are one thing where you might need more capital as the business grows because you're trying to expand for some reason or another real estate is a business where once you own the asset you should not need more cash you're not like expanding the real estate any way you're operating an apartment building the problem is what happens is when the interest rates go up and you have more debt to pay every single month because you're on a floating rate you need more capital to be able to pay that debt because the rents don't service it rents are going down interest rates are going up and these guys who have promised you know making fortunes are like calm with their pants down and then with v eat the which is crazy then they have the audacity to say hey actually where our returns are fantastic and then then the look the other audacity that they have is they're like okay now all of the deals you invested in within in the last five years with us are bad because interest rates are up but now we can buy things at a lower price because prices have gone down our interest rates are up so by with me now i'm a good wow it's a good time to invest with me and i wanna be like i wanna fucking kill you is really the answer but you don't that type of bullshit you said why isn't anyone calling these people out yeah why aren't you calling them about would you like to name some names we got a great audience here i would love to hear the names of some of these folks yeah i don't wanna name names because i want that like you know some of these people i'm friends with and i'm like i know your wives and your families and i don't want you to like suffer i was like i don't wanna see you sort of suffering in that way you just wanna kill them but like yes i do wanna kill them i i think that like i i don't like there are very few people i would ever invest again with in real estate twitter the one exception to that role made the exception rather than the rule itself is moses ka where i've invested in several deals with him and i'm like this guy under writes conservatively like i under write and he's like thinking about the game in a long term way where he's like i wanna manage my reputation i want people to make money i'll make money when people make money and i would invest with him again and a lot of other deals that i've done with people on bills estate twitter i'm like i would need you know would have to be heroin addict to invest with you again you said last time you're on the podcast you did a pie chart which normally people do as percentages and you did as dollars which i thought was such a boss move and really enjoy it so i want you to tell me how it's changed since then so you said at the time this was twenty twenty two mid twenty twenty two so it's been about a year since then a little more than a year you said i got ten million of in private equity forty to fifty million in cash which is short term bonds of waiting for bond prices to come up you said then you said so smart then you said twenty five thirty million in real estate that we own and operate ourselves and then ten million in real estate as a lp and other people's funds you said ten million to start up investments and ten million in the stock market what do you has that change have you have you made shifts since then in how you are investing and we should put that in a pie chart on youtube just so people can follow that easier yeah sure good question it hasn't changed dramatically i would say to forty to fifty million dollars in bonds is probably somewhere at sixty to seventy today but it's still in short term bonds which you're yielding a lot i'm starting to get a little bit longer as like the yield curve starts to flatten like right now if you buy a one year bond you'll get about five point five percent interest it here if you buy a ten year bond it's a little bit under five you know a year ago it was like five it was let's say five percent for a year but four percent for ten years and now the the like the curve was inverted and now it's starting to flatten a little bit and as it continues flatten i invested in longer term bonds rather than just short term bonds i probably have fifteen to twenty million dollars in the stock market at this point heavily concentrated in facebook and and shopify probably look and probably pm g you tweet out this funny thing you it was your your irr versus s and p and you're like you quoted right quoted legally on you're like what like stock investing is hard it's our yeah that's right and what what were what was the returns what was the comparison yeah it's probably up thirty percent of the air yeah versus s and p was like three or something or or ten twelve or something like that yeah but you i you didn't say what you owned and in my head i was like i bet that is literally just facebook facebook yeah yeah it's it's a lot of facebook facebook and shopify and pete and your brother kept buying the dip like facebook was getting crushed like you know yeah don't know a year and a half ago to to like you know up until six months ago or something and every time it went down i remember your brother and i think you also were like hey is everybody insane great can't we take by more facebook today and the earnings and psychologically is hard right earnings come out or or you know big stock move happens it goes down and to be like alright let's go but let's buy in more buy in more that takes a totally different mindset what's your what drives the conviction because it's obviously not a reaction to the you're not reacting to momentum in fact you're going you're betting against the current momentum sure so what made you believe that that's like a place that you wanted to be investing i would say two two things one is literally every single business i know if it's a online retailer is entirely dependent on facebook whether they realize it or not like anybody i need look the best businesses in direct to consumer are entirely dependent on facebook the worst did businesses are diversified and it's that simple if you're entirely if you're like my business lives or dies by facebook i'm like you're gonna have a better outcome than if you think your business lives and dies by youtube ads brick mortar actually brick and mortar is subsidize up but like youtube ads i'm diversified with my advertising strategy i'm investing a lot in tiktok that means you can't get the thing that works for everybody and is the biggest advertising engine of the world to work for you you're gonna miss out out a ton of opportunity and and so i'd say that is one of them but like the reality is in this a little bit of a longer story when a financial crisis hit my father who had been conservative his entire life he was probably like seventy years old at the time and he's like this doesn't make sense how cheap these houses are and so he bought one house and it was probably like a fifteen hundred square foot house and he paid a hundred and fifty thousand dollars for it and it's just sold for like two twenty five like you know a couple months before end and he's like there's a seventy five thousand dollar discount after sixty days and then in the next sixty days later that one fifty was probably worth like seventy five thousand and rather than get scared and be like oh fuck i lost seventy five thousand dollars and we don't have a lot of money at that time he's like this doesn't bake any sense now this house over year that's sold for two fifty four months ago is for seventy five thousand dollars and so we kept purchasing real estate and you know there was one half duplex that he purchased for eight thousand dollars and it generates like nineteen hundred dollars in rent a month today like within you know within a human we purchased back the entire duplex every single year and he never lost convictions like this is a deal of a lifetime and i've got the conviction that i'm have right here and you know obviously you know people talk about my brother or i how we've like had financial success the reality is that financial success is based on the idea that we will not need a lot of money in the future because he he started purchasing real estate and created a steady stream of income for our family they'll be very hard to lose we have the benefit of that it's sort of the solid foundation of like not worrying about money and sort of being able to take a lot of risk because we could fall back on real estate and that gave me a lot of conviction where i'm like wow it it is possible to buck the trend here and say you know what these people are wrong this like you know this is on sale you're selling this incredible asset and it's fifty percent off and i know it because i'm looking at you know twenty five ad accounts on a daily basis and seeing that these people are still investing ad dollars on facebook so how could it be twenty five how can be twenty five percent off how could facebook stop be fifty percent off this is a combined opportunity not a selling of your portfolio now what percentage of it came from native was did native make up the bulk of it and then it's just has grown nicely since then i would say native is yeah you know it's hard to answer that question because like a lot of these so when native sold let's say i i made virtually the entire amount but that you know like the the my network worth is significantly higher than that now but like you know it's based on the like you know i would own fifty million dollars in bonds were not for the hundred million dollars i got from native sale so like yeah while the interest i don't know if the interest is attributable to native or it it it it's not presumably it is you know certainly if i were getting a divorce and i didn't have a pre i'd say all of this is native money like it all keep for native that's pre pre marriage and so you know the the bulk of my financial net worth is a result of selling an data but at this point the cash itself from native is probably less than a majority of my note worth when you you're talking about like you know oh wait your dad saw that opportunity this yeah under priced when facebook stock is crashing you feel like this is a priced asset what do you feel like are the kind of under priced opportunities where assets today i think san francisco real estate and possibly your office real estate in a lot of other cities but i do think that like that on like you know the of the question is how do you wanna get in there and when when we were when my father find this real estate eight i was an a it must be like a little bit later actually it must been like twenty ten i an attorney and all these like wealth managers was tried to talk to attorneys and so i was like look i need a loan for five hundred my family needs a loan for five hundred thousand dollars we bought a million dollars of real estate just want fifty percent lt tv and wells fargo would be like the only way we're gonna give you a loan is if you give us a million dollars in cash then we'll give you a million dollar loan and i was like i don't understand if you guys know how money works but if i have a million dollars in cash i wouldn't come to for fucking million dollar loan i wouldn't give you that but so anyway like we were we were strapped for cash and trying to deploy it and then what my father did is he dollar cost average into the real estate and he didn't know that that's what he was doing he was just like well we got like another you know fifty thousand dollars to spend let's go buy a house and he would get that fifty thousand dollars for rent that he was collected and so he just dollar cost average his way in and it was really aggressive i'm if if you were dollar cost averaging your way into office space i'd probably start you know in twenty twenty three or or very early twenty twenty point four if you were like i'm trying to time the bottom which is really hard to do correctly obviously i'd probably still wait four to five months because there probably still some you know but some deals that have to go that have light on fire before the rest of the world realized realizes okay my real estate is now worth the hundred billion it's actually with thirty million today yeah i agree with the same thing what do you think what was your answer to that question i didn't never answer but i wanted to know your opinion on like some of these d companies that have just got smashed in the stock market so like you know an all birds brand which i don't know what the market cap is was like fifty million dollars or something it's yeah come down i'm way way way down revenues over a hundred million market cap you know fifty today is one thirty eight yeah no i think you has to go a bankrupt before you can touch that and why is that they just totally mis misha it or it's too much debt or what's the problem with that that business i i've been looking probably like real estate is probably not good their team is too large they might have some like financial obligations probably to their suppliers that are really holding down there they had have a lot of accounts payable and you need to wipe that all out before you can get into i think do this with honest as well and i was like i talked to some serious people and was like hey i wanna buy i think about buying honest and that business was that business had different problems that business had gross margin problems which was they if they sell a diaper for a dollar it actually cost them seventy cents and generally this into you it actually cost you like thirty cents you should have you know sixty seventy percent gross margins these guys had thirty percent gross margins so they they had a different problem but like i think with all birds it's a it's more severe it's you know it's systemic it's a brand lucky you know it's a brand like it needs to i think it'll have to go through bankruptcy and it be fixed do you look at things like ai do you pay attention to it or you just like i'm a merchant i used to cash checks at a gas station and sold deodorant you know through facebook ads and now you know i and you know are you like real estate you know the only things i can touch and feel or do you pay attention do you get swept up at all in the kind of the the craze of of the day like am i think i get swept up a little bit but i'm probably more cautious where i'm like i wanna see how this thing makes money i remember our last podcast on you were like how much do you have it a bitcoin because that was one thing on the my pie chart i did not talk about and i was like it out probably less than five hundred thousand dollars and today it's you know probably like probably less than two hundred thousand dollars you know i like to know how i'm gonna make money i guess i'm far more risk ave than most entrepreneurs and that risk aversion means that i probably won't invest in businesses unless i a good idea of like how does this business make money or who who purchases this business or how we how do we exit this business five to ten years from now i need like a realistic vision of that if i don't have that i'm probably less inclined to get behind it and so i think that's made me shy away from bitcoin that's made me shy away from ai probably to my own deck are you managing everything yourself and what tools are you using is it just a a sheet this a excel sheet yeah there's a google sheet my brother and i share well we're like here's is the investment you know if it's you know here's a fun here's how much we have committed to here's how much we've invested it's a startup up it here's how much we put in do you you guys still have like one bank account he told me once he was like kinda there's like a family pot of money i'm like how that a little bit a little bit a little bit yes is the honest answer is yes still in in very many ways i think the answer is yes to that when you see him buying something stupid you're like you're spending arm money bitch what are you doing well i knew he was gonna buy you a gift one time and i was like he's kind buying himself a gift right you you if it's it's our money you you don't like you don't like wealth managers so do you manage everything yourself because yeah that's a full time job almost that is a full time job if you wanna be good at it and if you don't get like if you don't wanna be good at it it's less of a full time job like at this point i'm i'm mostly content with if i'm not making a start up investment i'm generally gonna think of at the s and p five hundred or the us treasury i'm not like chasing the extra yield where i'm like if i put a lot of effort into this instead of the us treasury maybe an uber like uber bonds that are dated in twenty twenty five are paying six point two percent but you have to analyze what's the tax implication of this uber bond versus a us treasury to to determine net yields i'm not like that i'm just like give the us treasury the extra one percent yield isn't it worth it i'll go make a percent elsewhere my wealth managers i've been through a several now i've been through goldman sachs goldman sachs you know i would like goldman sachs is like always consult us before you make an investment we'll just give you our real opinion and i did that for a while and i was like okay i thought you guys were just gonna be like is this a good idea of a bad idea but they're always like no give us the money instead i used to tell the story i told i i told i went to like my goldman sat like my wealth manager's boss i come over to the native offices and i was like look i believe that if i told my wealth manager that bill gates was ready to get a billion dollars tomorrow if i let him borrow this pen and he sided contract to that effect and put the billion dollars at a brief briefcase and give it up give me the briefcase you would say don't do that deal give us the pet instead like they would not they would like they would not let you own a dollar of bill gates if he was gonna give you a billion dollars tomorrow and he pre funded the billion dollars they'd say give us the dollar we can do better with it let us earn fees on your dollar don't take the billion dollars let us earn fees and i told my goldman sachs wealth managers boss like this is how i feel your organization it is fucking horrific and you know i still say that way about that like you know i'm still angry with them and then i went to tell me how you really feel yeah yeah i i'll tell him you know she was like wow that must be awful and i was like yeah and i was like you i was like if i had people working for me that made me then made my clients go like that the made my customers go like that i'd wanna know and that's why i'm telling you today phil one of the funniest tweets i ever saw was you go oh here's a photo of every three p owner that i've ever seen and it was a picture of the hamburg yeah it was so funny yeah that was so funny oh my god and i couldn't even imagine what you were going through that would get you to the point where you're like i'm gonna eat this out and where's that what where's a picture of the hamburger yes that's that's how clown i clown criminal these guys on with how they rip you off it's so last was manager was like oh about a year and a half ago was like you should invest everything into bonds right now we think the fed is gonna engineer soft landing and everything's gonna be perfect and so you want this through you'll get it three percent yield if you invest in a five year duration so basically that you'll get three percent a year but you have to commit to that money being invested for five years and so i put like i think it was like five or seven million dollars to that and against that strategy and then a quarter in like probably three months later i was like you know what i don't believe in this sell everything right now i'm gonna take a loss i don't think we're gonna engineer the soft landing interest rates are gonna go up inflation is nine percent the fuck are you guys thinking that it we could engineer soft landing here with with the interest rates staying the same as interest rates remaining the way they are and inflation be non fucking percent you think that i should get a three percent yield and so we sold the seven million dollars i probably lost a hundred and fifty or a hundred twenty five thousand dollars or a hundred fifty thousand dollars in that three month period doing this three months lost a hundred fifty thousand dollars because had bet guess them you know people started to realize interest rates with rise and since then i just invested in like you know three months six months one year treasuries to take take advantage of the health and so like you know these got the guys who the wealth managers their job is not to understand markets their job is to understand how to sell you an asset they're just car salesman who sell like you know financial instruments rather than cars and they're like just as a s and just as like slimy and just as charismatic as well and you know i trust you know you have you seen like seinfeld where george costa is it a car dealership and a car dealers like walking towards somebody but he's like stop right there or otherwise i'm gonna leave that's what would whenever my wealth managers like let me sell you this asset i'm like stop right there i'm gonna hang up the phone if we continue this conversation v or you know us treasuries don't try and sell me anything else i know how you guys like one time they were also to like we're a very large lp of four runner ventures and i was like look i understand direct to consumer better than a lot of other people for runner invest a lot of direct to consumer you guys are wearing that as a point of pride i think that's a terrible idea don't put any of my money in four ventures and so it's been it's been a fun learning experience but it's also something where i'm like there's no one doing this well there at least no one that i found the does as well everyone seems to be like here this product we want you to fit into this box putting in this much money in private equity this much money in venture capital this much money in you know bonds the much money in hedge funds we don't give a fuck about your like you know we'll think about your age and that's it that's about it but we won't be sophisticated about this and be like okay you know what maybe you want esoteric assets that are more interesting maybe are okay with your money to being tied up for longer i really like they don't understand the market i think that's a more fundamental problem they're not like we think the market is having this way and we or one prepare you for that even todd's uncertainty they're now like we wanna prepare your for uncertainty oh you're ever gonna start another company again and and make that your thing you missing it yes definitely you know i think that i can't turn a hundred million dollars into a billion dollars i can only start a business the sales per billion dollar i think the answer is yes in fact i'm surveyed hey what what happened to the guy on twitter who said hey money's is not gonna make you happy it's your friend and your family and your i what you you say you had some tweet about other the day i was like you do you not a ghost writer who's this this is not on brand it's not the guy who said i was put on earth to increase earnings per share i like the old boys yeah the guy was like it all could be true it all can be true right you could he wants to get after it you don't have to do it just to make you happy you do it just because it's exciting and i think look it all depends on the mood are in where you're like lonely or spending a lot of time with friends and you're like wow this is great and there you you know i'll spend time with friends who this guy will be like yeah i'm making started this tour direction you can see a business to be a hundred million dollars is our second year twenty million dollars eb and i'm like fuck friendship i need to get that so i think it's all like the grass is always greener and so sometimes having the like yeah i had this other two where i'm like sometimes i wanna be like a warrior and make a lot of money and other times i wanna be like a civilian and just spend time with loved ones i don't have a good answer to that i see a therapist and she doesn't have a good answer back for bi hey no there's what is his suns tzu it's better to be a warrior in the garden as opposed to a gardner and more so you know you could still be this crazy person and chill everyone that is a great quote i've ever heard that before that's awesome what don't business ideas that you guys have what don't know what's a business idea that i should start you know if i wanna start a business with what's why you guys talk to a lot more people than idea what's a business idea should start well my honest opinion is that you now have new advantages and so like you could start a new business for scratch but i really do think the thing you should do is take a huge slug of capital buy something that is like you know already worth a hundred million dollars like you could you could take something from a hundred to five hundred or a hundred to a billion much easier than going from zero to five hundred with like a new product in the marketplace and so i i think that's what i would that's where i would start the process of thinking that yeah talking about i think you'd be very successful doing that our or buying like i forget the guy's named nat nat something the guy who bought the trading card company like like an old what was the call sean that turner is that a name that we bought like a trading car company and he's like i wanna make this cool again i think you would succeed doing that but my read on you is that you are significantly more of a creator and an artist than you want people to think and i think that you have to because i i saw how like careful you were about customer service and about the brand and even though you wanna act like this tough guy like you are like i'm gonna answer two hundred customer service emails and i'm gonna like delight them and i remember yeah about the website like you act like oh i just copied this i copied that there's a lot more stalking care then you then you give that vibe and so if if if i had to tell you what to do it would be start something from scratch and make it art and then also have that fifty percent of you that you know only cares about eb or you know or whatever the but i i i my opinion is of who you are is you need to be a little bit more of an artist than you have lately i couldn't agree more i appreciate that yeah i actually agree that i i also think what i would not do is i would not do another d brand even though you know how to do it and you could do it like you know in your sleep at this point just because you're playing the same level of the video game that you you already beat and like you know what's more valuable than the money you would make in that is like you have like certain number of years of like you're you're in like peak mental physical like abilities right now and like use those years wisely either go do just the funniest things you can think of in around the world and travel and do all that good stuff or if you are gonna do a creative project make it one that like you know puts those to good use into good challenge you know like if you if you came to me and you said like you know i'm starting another d to brand and it's gonna be you know not deal it but whatever some other thing or you know yeah i would be like okay that's cool you're i'm sure it's gonna be successful but i don't think that's what may will make you for bullshit because made deodorant like i use the soap because like i trust the like he built a brand i mean it's a it's a trusted brand partially because i know mo i don't know the the owner now so i don't i don't know actually if they're sticking to what the promise you don't know proctor why i don't know if there is actually it's the opposite i think if they own it they're probably gonna ruin it but like if you were to create like some type of food that is a healthy option or something baby formula that's a healthy option i actually think that that would start and look silly but it actually has massive implications and would make i don't like saying this but it could make the world even a slightly better place and you could find some fulfillment in that and it would look just like another e com brand but as long as it's not like something stupid that doesn't that doesn't matter to people like for example another all birds thing but something that i put in my body you know or something that makes my kid healthier or something like that i i i think that could fulfill you i appreciate that and i appreciate that inspiration as well i think there's truth to both of those things like i i wanna build something like one of the reasons that i haven't really got excited about anything is because i want something to be you know ten times bigger than my last business and that's you know that's hard to do and hard to be excited about and hard to say you know what i'm gonna spend the next ten years of my life building this business and that's you know that's what's made me really cautious about it but a way that i think is you know making my mind less flexible than it was five years ago you better get on it man you don't wanna be a has or a one hit wonder i i i i think about it i think that native is only it's a home run for everyone else i think it's a base hit for you but i'm i'm like every day i'm like what's he doing what's he doing is he doing i'll see you tweet something like is that gonna be the thing is that gonna be the thing is it gonna actually fall in you know you're gonna be you're gonna be like rico bragging about how y took state in high school like i want you know what be that that's right i what a egg you what an amazing day well hey look y that's great and it's not a make i i'm saying you're you know that's it's a compliment like it's a compliment i you're gonna you're gonna do great things but whether you're gonna finally nut up and actually do it and that's what i'm eager for yeah yeah jack my are my banker from the native sale texted to me yesterday and he's like know november eighth is the sixth year anniversary of the sale and so like it's been six years since i've been out you know sold the business and you know i think so far it's been my not good you wanna feel some anxiety today you been six years you wanna fuck up your day here you go you know what that is he's doing home options for investment banking he's like texting me it once a while i'll be like hey well it's time to sell this in your next business don't forget about me i'm still texting you what was the what what's the sales now of native i i bet you that's doing two or three hundred million a year now right five hundred this year five hundred oh coulda what a shoulda no i've i joking get lot you i would've sold probably as well i joe i think i could have done yeah i don't think i could have done what p g is done without that like they made it an amazing brand they think about like you know product development they think about shelf space they think about things in a way that's really spectacular and i'm not just say that there are things why i look at them i'm like i wouldn't have done that like i definitely see that once in a while but ultimately like you know the reason that i sold the one i did was i went to learn from people who are masters at something about how to grow something from you know thirty to a hundred or five hundred i think i learned a lot of that while i was there and so you know there good people will always like to you regret there's not a day that goes by where i go to bed like spanish and it's sold and always like that was the right decision we'll wrap up with this one line that you told me you you're you're saying you're tell me about the sell the sale process and they were like so how are you gonna expand and you're looked at them all dump dumbfounded i go are you and you go well can you write the words native on a shampoo bottle how about on toothpaste can you write that okay that's how you expand and that's exactly what they've done i actually don't use the deodorant but i use the soap you the soap is my favorite you you've even had like melissa's cupcakes soap and you have all this other soap i i i love the soap and so your the coffee wash don't at the body yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and your body wash and you your smart ass reply was their strategy and it worked so congratulations yeah like that's right was good guy of a back just taking those yeah he's gonna call someone hey guys can we write native on this bottle can we do that hey what's put in and sorry over that right on boys thanks for coming on man and we appreciate you coming on thank you very much talk to i feel like i could rule word i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a day's off on a goal travel never looking back