Martin Shkreli Reveals How He Made His First $100M

yep pub men is the government database of all sc classic biomedical literature so thirty six million papers if you sit there long enough and you have the passion you can become a billionaire it's just a matter of sitting there and sift and sift and sift which most people don't don't have the patients desire willpower to do but every single biomedical innovation is is logged in on pub what's up we just had a conversation with martin sc if you don't know who he is you could just google's his name and you'll find that he is quote unquote the most hated man in america or he is the pharma bro and he's you know we touch just kind of a bunch of different things you know the bingo card for my first million he's made hundreds of millions of dollars he's super controversial and some people love some people hate him he went to prison for something that he did with his his hedge fund and he comes on here and he tells us a bunch of things he tells us how he made his first million he gave his side of the story on why he bought that drug and raised the price and why maybe it wasn't so evil as as it was portrayed why he hates sort of vanilla ceos that that just only speaking corporate speaking and why he refuses to do that while he thinks mark cuban is full of shit he also unveil his new startup up in the ai space for the first time ever so pretty interesting conversation with martin he is he's one thing he's not boring and you you look i think we can all agree on that some people love them some people hate them i think you see in this episode you can see a couple different sides of them and so i'm curious to hear what you guys think i love for you to put in the comments whether you you love this episode you hated this episode or somewhere in between and you know we always commit that on this pod know when we bring people on we're not saying this is the best person ever or the worst we just wanna have interesting conversations with interesting people i wanna get into their mind and find out why they are the way they are how they think how they operate and then you can decide for yourself whether this is somebody you you're into or not so that's this episode martin crowley it's about two hour interview and enjoy sam where do you wanna start we can either go more on the ai stuff or there's there's some interesting stuff in your your kinda start of your career that i think it's kinda fun like you worked you worked with jim kramer is that right when you were sixteen years old you worked for kramer the guy who's always was yelling on on cnbc what was that like what's kramer like kramer right you know hedge funds were a different world back then it was a very very small asset class maybe fifty billion a hundred billion totals you know any private partnership is is technically kind of a hedge fund right if you have outside investors and you're charging them one in twenty or two and twenty and your shortening stocks and doing exotic stuff you know that's a hedge fund whether you call it that or not so warren buffett had a hedge fund all the folks had a hedge fund but at the time the biggest hedge funds were gall group sac capital you know handful kind of like tiger so you know it was sort of the wild time for the hedge fund industry kind of you know very very small industry maybe thirty or forty or fifty firms of eva and any significance and that means like you know a hundred million dollars or more and so cra is one of those firms i got pork there was very lucky you you were in high school at the time i i was sort of in this like weird state of both being a high school dropout high school graduate and a high school you know continuing you know kind of education it was very weird i had i went to this very special school called hunter where i fulfilled all my re requirements pretty early so i was ready sort of graduated in the state's eyes but i continued to sort of like go to the school and pick up credits and like go to college at the same time so it was just a weird like mis misha of education and sort hard to explain but what were you kind of like you're almost like a class clown of society now were you like that in high school or were you just like a straight laced kid at that time yeah absolutely i was like just like this in high school again and i was it if there was somebody that needed sort of dressing down or including you teacher or principal whatever i remember my first day of school i actually dressed down a principal a bit that was sort of a funny you know thing to do you know i i guess i have the like fearless of you know but did your parents like disciplined to you were they like dude what the fuck show some respect yeah you know i i not really got bitch you know i don't know you know i've i i think there's like this you know i've always had this you know opinion that people take themselves too seriously and and take authority too seriously and of course you know i landed myself in prison both you off and and i think that you know there's and and and you are right they do take this so yeah yeah another prediction you've got everyone one time martin was on b and again the numbers are going crazy i i was i gotta see what happened he must be acting to fool full or something i don't know what's going on and and go in in the a cnn reporter was demanding like an interview with him he like she was like huge martin i've been watching this is really interesting i would love to have a conversation with the cnn and he's like no no you come on my show this is my show you wanna interview me we could do it right here and she's like okay i'm not gonna do that but if you come on cnn he's like no no come on the show and then she's like refusing or whatever he's like that she she starts like trying to like have a moment to like tell him how bad he is and then he asked her he's like i'm going to the gala tonight you wanna be my plus they like butter a plate yeah didn't you end up going didn't you go out no about this one but i just thought wow what a like you know they don't teach that in p r school just ask him on a date if it's not going if the interview is not going well break breaking down the fourth wall is like my specialty right like you know i and what elon sort did that to that bbc got the other day like i yep i would always ask i remember one of my analysts who's on the sell side before joining me on the buy side he brought a management team to come over to this sort of skipping ahead in my career a little bit to to having my old phones they brought a management team over to you know pitch some stock or pitch a pipe or something and i i asked the c ceo why he didn't he didn't known any stock in his company any you know he sort is like having in hawaiian like you know this that temperature is kinda getting hot and i said you know because i have your proxy right here like i put a dumb table i said it looks like you make five hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year that's that's it's a good amount of money can you promise me today that you'll buy like ten thousand or twenty thousand dollars your stock at least and and the guys is sort of like you know the most uncomfortable meeting in the history of wall street you know because i kept like camry on i was like no but just tell me like why can't you afford to spend ten thousand dollars in buy stock stock price will go up everyone wins you'll show confidence that you know and i just wouldn't like for twenty minutes let it go and it was just you know one of these like you know breaking down the their forth well you're not like i'm not supposed to do that you know his personal finances are up to him is what most her portfolio managers would say you know he he's allowed to not own his stock it's really his call but you know being able to sort of like you know cut to the chase on half these things and like you know address the elephant in the room is kind of the thing that i like to do even if it's really uncomfortable or or difficult or embarrassing sig or you know full paul you know it's it's something that you know i'll i'll i'll just sort of you know cut to the chase with i remember when you got arrested or the the headline was like you had to put up like your fidelity account or something like that that had like sixty million dollars in it and at the time you were i don't know how that you were thirty two or something i mean early thirties very young and you i mean that was it was a significant amount of money and that didn't that was just your fidelity account let alone like your you know the touring five you you know the the the farm the pharma companies that you'd found it was did you make your first bit of money when you started the hedge funds and how did that come to be or were you already doing well just being at the hedge funds where you worked oh a great question so i never made money at hedge funds i never really made a dollar working at or owning both so when i started at hedge funds i was young and you know didn't really earn money which was fine you know i wasn't optimizing for that you know was optimizing for learning stuff experience good relationships i mostly succeeded in that i think you know probably messed up some relationships but regardless you know did the best i could as young guy start my own fund pretty pretty terrible at doing the fund management business you know investing being a good investor and being a good fund manager kind of like pretty different things is what i think most hedge fund entrepreneurs kinda learn you know you know there you can be a really brilliant investor and and not manage the actual business well and the business is to grow your assets as much as possible provide the best sort of adjusted returns possible and satisfy your clients and i didn't really wanna do any of that you know i just wanted to invest and i never took fees for many of my funds which was very like you know sort of bizarre and there were they're sort of technical legal reasons for that but so i never really made any money in hedge funds when i started my first drug company called retro trophy which is now called t this is about ten years ago that's sort of where everything sort came together for me i i learned pharma by being a hedge fund person for ten years and and hedge funds studying pharma starting with the early jim cram days where i was just figuring out what a stock and a bond was and then moving on to you know trading these things and working at had electrons and stuff like that and then starting my own i i really mastered pharmaceuticals i i knew everything about pharma and i pressed a lot of people in pharma who were working in the field or working hedge funds and you know it's easy for me to sort of start to our company and find some really good assets the first asset i found actually received fda approval just just a couple months ago i'm really proud of that and when our company went public you know as was millionaire how how how old were you it was twenty twelve you know so it was born eighty three so i guess it was twenty nine and i was a ceo publicly traded company and the market capital the company like i said now is you know one point five billion roughly and the drug got fda approved i'm really happy about that like so often in biotech people start companies they kind of extract some equity value out of them as they go public and then the companies drugs don't work and they kind move on and there are people that have like c and biotech doing that like every three five years you know i i i'd named some names but it it does matter you know and getting a drug fda approved and for me kind of on my first try was you know sort of like a very you know a very like nice feather of mic out and i'm happy for the people that are now getting this prescription for this kidney disease really delighted by that but the you know the it was a lot of fun to to see that so when people ask me like where'd did you make your first million i made my first like twenty five million all one he's still on the same day you know like it it wasn't like okay you make you're like one of my great friends start off making you know he's great story and him one day maybe he'll have one podcast he started off trading sneakers and he was like thirteen or something and then he started trading cars and he ended up trading stocks and he he sort of went from a thousand bucks to five thousand to a hundred thousand to a million to five million you know etcetera etcetera and you know that that road isn't when everyone does right like some people i was like literally almost like starving you know and then like broke you know trying to get that big big win and it came and so you you said a couple of things i wanna quickly clarify you say you didn't make much money investing because you weren't really good at or interested in the fund management but presumably if you're good at or interested in the investing side you would still generate returns so what was it like didn't didn't do so hot in the on the investing side either or what what happened there yeah i had sort like a mix of of issues you like when you run a small bond you have like costs and stuff like that so you know you have started how big how big was the fun i had about eight million you know ever since i started so like you know you just can't like even with good investing you just kinda can't do that well with respect to to returns if you have other costs and things like that and we had like all kinds of like issues happen along the way that that led to that prosecution and salt like that that sort of limited our our ability to to do really well financially and again we we didn't take any fees either because again we have the sort of big issue that that came about and we just decided to not make fees at all but in the end our investors did fairly well you know the record shows that our investors all make money in our funds so i was really happy to deliver that but you know along the way there were a lot of twists in terms of hiccups that are they're not worth going into but headphones from you were kinda like a just sort of like a roller coaster of of issues that were just over you know and over again kind of like various like you know unexpected twists and turns that didn't really add up to profit some people at hedge funds like if you get off to like a good start for your first like three or six months often you can get this momentum raising more capital and raising more capital and you get this like virtuous with cycle you can also go in the other direction where you know if you you know many funds are started by good investors and they end up failing and those investors sort of come back and take take few years off and start fund again you know hedge funds have like the shortest lifespan if thought you were keep the top hedge runs from the nineties almost none of them exist today and i think of those like top ten hedge funds of all time like five were shut down by regulatory intervention it all like it's a very hazard this job yeah there's there's a you know ten percent chance like i'm not going going to jail being had from since it's a really you kinda dangerous job to be it and you know you're dealing with the markets and you're dealing with representations to investors just how to mark private right is is kinda like one of these like real debates i know a guy who went to jail for that fairly recently you know anybody looking at your books can basically say oh well you mark this too high you know therefore you you know you're you're from def your investors for chart them too much well you marked it too low well now you're def refining them because you know you're you're you're referencing the other investors who are coming into the font so you really can't can't win it's a very tough business you don't build any actual lasting value as you know almost no hedge funds have gone public so it's just kind of a crummy business in general and like i i i don't recommend anyone kinda get into it unless they're so interested in stocks that they can't you know help but like spend their whole time looking at stocks like kramer back then kramer like a stock addict right so this guy like again i i consider him you know not quite a friend but like i i i i have a on memory of working with a i mean he is like a a drug addict to their drug he is like that to securities like he cannot get away from it there's nothing he loves more in the world than stocks and you think about people like warren buffett and say maybe that's that's kinda like them and the average person wants to get in the hedge funds they wanted to get into it because oh i i can make ten million bucks or i can make fifty million bucks a year wow look at that jim simon made a billion dollars i can be like that that sounds great and you know that's a terrible terrible terrible way look at it right if you wake up in the middle of night thinking about s and p earnings estimates you should be a hedge funds right but if you don't care on a sunday you know what's what the news is gonna be on monday in the stock market or what you know your favorite company ceo is doing that night you know there that's it's not for you and i think there are people that hedge fund industry has grown so much people come to finance not saying that in the nineties and the eighties the only people that were in hedge funds were people like jim and buff and people like like that that were just like so intensely insanely disaster by the g generations of the market and if that's not you it it's it's kind of not a good industry but for me i i was sort of intensely possessed with pharmaceutical companies and pharmaceutical assets or drugs and medicines and you know it was actually a better fit to do private equity you know kind of style investing where you actually buy whole medicines whole companies you know that that worked really well for me and i've seen a lot of people in hedge fund search transition to that model of well i can buy five percent of a software company why can't i buy a hundred percent a solve company right that that makes more sense to me and for me you lose that like one of the things i was very bad at at at trading and investing was kind of that impulse right where you have to have this insanely good discipline as a trader and my partner had this really really great discipline i didn't so i could value a security as good as anybody but what it came time to like executing and actually deploying capital and risk management and stuff like that it was it was much harder for me to be good at that so when it came what does that what what what what does that mean you're you're not patient you you wanted the dopamine you wanted the dopamine meeting wanna said you're you're just you're just you're just like you have normal anxiety like a lot of people is is that what that means i think that like to ask somebody to manage a portfolio well is one of the most impossible tasks in like human psychology because the and there's this great book i've gotten better at it over the years for the worse and my my personal trading as as paradox like sword and profit as my you know i basically couldn't do that and in private investing the the hardest thing to do is is really to fight two or three different for me specific demons that are psychologically based but everyone has their own demon for me it's worth avoiding this this desire to double down so the market is like this really tough psychological battle where you're constantly gonna be humbled that your opinion is wrong that your thesis is wrong that this stock is not cheap you're wrong it's not cheap at all and you gotta sell it and that's really hard cognitive to embrace every day you can embrace it every now and then oh yeah obviously i i i i bought this crap stock and i'm wrong but when you're right you do get that dopamine hit and you don't want to confront that loss of the dopamine hit or even worse you acknowledgement that you were wrong and you're gonna be wrong like forty fifty percent of the time at best you know let's say thirty five forty percent of the time and most people don't wanna drunk ever so the desire is sometimes to double down and just say no i even i know i'm right this is an even better opportunity than it was before if you keep doing that you you basically will will go bankrupt and i it's it's like the fastest way to go bankrupt and you know i've learned that you know a couple times now and and i think that you know i've gotten better at sort of not doubling down but you to be really great trader you gotta not just not double down you also have to get out you know before all the damage is done and so i so i started to do that well too but you know these these pains are not pains your investors want you to learn on buying right the excited their their pains you have to sort of you know be ready you know when you start your own so i started starting my fun too early and stuff like that but i think that i wouldn't i wouldn't change a lot in the sense that when you have a fund you learn more about your industry if you do it right i think you'll learn more about your industry than than than any other sort of job other than actually being in that industry so you you learn a ton about what wall street wants so let's say if you're a software analyst it's really great to then have a software company because you know exactly kinda what the exit looks like and what like public company investors wanna see and the same thing works in biotech and in biotech to handicap like this company or stock be a good stock well you gotta figure out will this drug be a drug and that's the exact same skill set you have to do when you're ceo so you have that like you know crossover that's happening quite a bit more in biotech i've i've seen that you know doesn't have so much in tech people who invest in tech generally don't wanna be operators and the tricks that you have to learn on operating side in tech are very different from biotech and biotech you can actually like learn pick up mostly of the operating stuff from being an investor whereas i think in tech like you know being an investor software company certainly doesn't make you a programmer you so yeah and and that's what i was gonna ask you because you you you were like well i started a pharmaceutical company because i love the asset and i learned through it with finance which is way different than like for example my friend kara started this company hint which does like water because she was like my skin was bad i didn't wanna drink gatorade coke anymore so i like went and inform and i went and boiled fruit peels and made this fruit water that's like taste good it's good for you and we grew it from there your counting story was like oh i found acids that were interesting like it's like that's like foreign to me you know what i mean yeah so like if if there was a company for example my first hedge fund we bought ten percent of this company publicly traded company and they had bought this asset from bristol myers the major major drug company in new jersey and bristol myers spent like fifty million bucks developing this drug and they quit they basically said this doesn't fit our portfolio we're not really going after the disease they were trying to go after was hypertension which is very boring and not does not need another medicine there's like sixty hypertension drugs so you don't does not need to to be a sixty first and they they just quit on the drug there are people who like really bad resistant hypertension and so forth so i really like this asset i like the way it worked and i after bristol myers quit on it the the publicly traded company and the financial crisis they heard with another public with trade company so i went to the publicly traded company and again only thing i have is a hedge trunk moment and i said let me buy and nobody's told a story away so this is a good good time to tell it because it's really you know it's basically a story about how we went to this company with two million dollars and turned it into over a billion you know which is is kind of remarkable but people do this in pharma every day and my friend and it's time in his actually my biggest investor of a swam he's not running for president he basically took our our business model and super sized it and again you know who who influenced to is is a matter was left left a history but the the point is we went to this company that had the license from bristol and they had they were doing anything with it we said listen listen we'll take this well find investors will both company around it and i'm gonna figure out how to how to make this work and they said okay sure you know we we got this asset sitting here doing nothing if you pay us two million bucks we'll we'll send you the two million bucks now we he sent them a million dollars which was really catastrophic because he never wanna sort of go back in your word but it was really like a dire circumstance where i forgot what happened exactly but we just couldn't come up funny and it was like we sent them a million and they're like what the fuck you know you can't do this this you know and i i was sort of like you know jeez this is a you huge embarrassment a huge problem but she's just gonna have to give us like thirty days or ninety days and you know we we worked it out and we were able to give them the second million but it was like this colossal embarrassment at right at the start and you know shit does happen but you know it ideally shouldn't happen like that and again really embarrassing and tough but we got them to two million and we decided i i sort of did all this research and said instead of hypertension we should go this rare kidney you disease called focal gl sclerosis and if you just go pub med and you have the will willpower you can learn a lot about medicine and you can dive in and really med pub med just being like a database of articles yep pub i guess yep pub men is the government database of all sc biomedical literature so thirty six million papers if you sit there long enough and you have the passion you can become a billionaire it's just a matter of sitting there and sift and sift and sift which most people don't don't have the patients desire willpower to do but every single biomedical innovation is is logged in on pub med and and you were sift for what what were you looking for when you went on pub yeah you you have to put the pieces together so the the this drug was endothelial receptor antagonist yeah and what does that mean it it it inhibits a protein called endo endothelial and its function but what will that do right do you have to decide well you have to learn where is deal and it expressed in the body how does it work what does it do if i stop and to see a one from working what benefits will that have what patterns will that result in and if you look at the history of okay well all other companies have tried this what do they see what do they discovered and what's what's interesting about pharma is that you think that these companies cover the waterfront but they really just prod poke a little bit there's actually probably ten diseases that this drug could be beneficial for and i made a list of those and i said okay well which one of these is gonna work for sure and there companies that like got half the answer and stuff like that and you just have to keep poking and we found like these handful diseases that really made a lot of sense now the problem nobody wall street really liked it you know was very you know kind of early you know there was this sort of tough problem of if you reduce the amount of protein in the urine of a patient does that really save their kidney and i thought i convinced everyone that i could reduce the amount of protein in the urine which was a a very big endpoint to me but not as conclusive as okay am my am i saving their lives am my am i preventing dialysis and kidney failure which is really the the whole hard endpoint i had a soft point that like seemed like almost certain i was right i was starting to vent convince companies like ab and and vertex and other like big bio at farmers that you know i was on something but nobody wants to write to check you know so i i basically got one of the management teams that i i i used to deal with on on wall street ten best and i slowly kind of cobb together some money met folks like peter t and others to to try to sort of get some investors didn't reverse merger what's peter till like peter is great you know was you know ten ten plus years ago he never done pharma so we we got to me and this was gonna be basically like his first pharma del ever we didn't end up doing the deal but it was it was a very funny thing because like there was this east coast or west coast mentality you know i was wall street guy he was you know he's obviously you know one of the the top vc type guys and this is a time where like he had cla him you know their their founder flood was just getting started and stuff like that and you know the wheel dealing like wall street sort of style of like oh we're gonna do reverse merger which is basically kind of like a spa was no money and you know it's like even worse them back and you know you do the you do the listing and then you raised the money but it's a way to go public and and we did it and he was like you can't go public in a year or two and you know the reality is i can and especially a bio pharma where the assets are like these very modular systems they're not like a base business that has x dollars revenue and is growing at x rate these are like okay this asset worth something dead or live in other words if it's being developed or not being developed for something you know especially with the right business plan it could be worth lot so anyway we we we decided they'll publicly raise some money we started doing clinical trials the trial worked and the rest of this history but it took you know it takes hundreds of million dollars to to develop a drug again the value of the company is is one point five the value of that drug specifically is probably around one billion again whether it actually achieves the sales goals or beats them or disappoint we'll we'll see as the drug launches and i'm rooting for the company but so you you you didn't even you didn't even get the drug in this example you didn't get the drug to the point where people are buying it or using it it was you made money off just the the fact that this will exist hopefully in ten or whatever years yeah and this is where well a lot of people don't know my story about medicine a lot of people think that i take medicines and raise prices well this drug was barely in human beings it had been like thirty or fifty people helped up to that point and you know i i've made most of my money in in sort of elements in in environment on the research side so you know this is a drug in clinical research so notes it's not it hadn't been fda approved it would take ten years to get an fda approved so it was a long marathon of running studies getting the evidence running more studies getting more evidence and continuing that process and you know as we start to do that the value of the company increased and people said okay i think i get this and then as the data came in now it's fda approved it's called f i named the drugs spa you know gave it his first chemical name and you know it's it's you know it i'm so happy it's it's fda approved now i left the company halfway through this process i should acknowledge that but you know all the same plans and and so forth you know continued did did you did you own most of it at the time or what was that and did you have to dives vest when all the shit went down so i went from ninety you know when i when we started it to fifty when we're public i think i had around forty percent or fifty percent after drove first down the thirty and or second financing down to twenty you know set time of our ipo we we when you do a aurora a merger off don't get on on nasdaq so we we did an ipo on nasdaq twenty fourteen and the company was worth like three or four hundred million and i owed about fifteen percent twenty percent of it and again this is sort like my first well ever but the funny thing is as you guys maybe know you have a situation like that you actually don't have any cash you're not liquid yeah you can't sell it so you know i've got millions of shares of the stock but you know i'm sitting there saying okay well you're like am gonna i this hang album yeah well you know the level before that you think about like how am i gonna buy this five thousand dollar month apartment and go to seven thousand dollar month department which is like a very funny discussion for somebody that you know has fifty or a hundred million dollars of of of stock value and i would go to these banks and say listen can i borrow five percent you know my money my stock value and they would say no and you know i'd i'd say you know you know why not you know and they'd say well you're it's a new stock you know it's it's kind of you know still you know a little bit on season you're the big shareholder you know we're just not comfortable with it i know like sitting there they're like oh my god you know this is insane because i don't wanna sell my stock because it ends like not kind of a bad signal to the market you know but i don't wanna you know also be starving so it was very like funny thing and i don't wanna be one of those greedy ceos that has you know an insane salary where you don't need so it was very just sort of a funny circumstance but eventually we had a big sq at the company i ended up leaving it's very tumultuous and and traumatic story in a lot of ways and i led to my prosecution you know there was this fight with with the board and it got very so nasty that the the the board you know kind of evil people here but the board sort of went to law enforcement as kinda one of their ways to win this fight and you know one of the things that a lot of people don't understand is that there's this big revolving door between corporate law and law enforcement i saw law enforcement i mean the attorney general sorry a usa the associate us attorneys that work in the department justice and it's not hard if you go to law firm you know like a cool clear got scattered and or pick paul weiss pick your biggest law firm you say hey we have this guy you did something bad you know look into this but you know usually you'll get in into indictment pretty fast this happened at the google guy that had the let way yep andrew this happened to a goldman sachs trader that stole some source code but email emailed to himself home to work on the source code then he went to another hedge fund they said see he he stole in electronically i got him in forty eight hours goldman makes a phone call they'll act on it quickly google makes a phone call they'll act on it quickly you're big enough law firm customer you're paying a law for ten million bucks and all those law firm partners worked government right they worked literally in the job that could get united so they could pick up a phone and get it and make it happen and i actually have like the person's name who picked up the phone you know and it's it's like so ridiculous because a boardroom battle corporate sq shouldn't turn into you know okay always make call and get you know get this guy arrested then we'll win the fight right and it's like you know i i was actually acquitted of those charges and i'm so proud of that to this day it's like the the most the happiest thing that i to look bored to or just talk about because like it was this clash of like these old hint old older incompetence sort of biotech people and this these younger sort of like aggressive executives that that i shepherd did and the older guys kinda won in terms of control of the company but the stock never went up again really and you know it it it just was sort of this company that they were able to sort of psych in millions of dollars out out of which is like for for a lot of talent executives like that's that's really exciting like getting a a a five million dollar paycheck a year plus a you know golden parachute plus all the perks and the power of being the ceo like i've none that stuff mattered to me i just wanted to make really big money and really big advances and for a lot of people like you know getting the the thing i just discussed was like that's their wife call that's her career goal there's no no need to do anything else they they'd rather provide over a company that does nothing but pays them five million bucks a year than a company that makes a huge advance in in a treatment or whatever so it was this big fight and and they i just basically said i'll start you company out i need you guys and i started touring we should let you explain kind of the thing because if people listeners to this have basically only heard of you as the guy who jacked up the price of the drugs and i've heard you explained this before many times where again i said you were entertaining because somebody would come on and be like you're the worst you're you're evil you did this and then you would say so explain to me what i did exactly and then they would immediately not know what the hell is like you you raise the price of the drug and now people can't get you're like tell me who can't get it where are you getting that data from like what what and you would walk them through almost like the soc method of what actually happened what what your perspective was on it and so i want you to share that because i think a lot of people have heard the other perspective which is die by drug raises price he's evil that's one perspective i'd like you to share your perspective and then people could decide for themselves which they feel to be more true so and you didn't even and and it was another funny part related to that you didn't even go to prison for that reason right you you if i remember correctly you admitted you were wrong for a bunch of things but it wasn't even related your persona was wrong you're you're yeah yeah but you're i think you being sm and being an asshole when maybe you should have just been like yes hey i'm sorry was maybe probably even the more appropriate answer but you were kinda like being sm and you got a lot of shit that so i think that hurt your your your thing but you didn't even get prosecuted you didn't get prosecuted for that no yeah it's not a it's i mean i i think that's why it was so spa because it's not a crime to choose the price of your product you know if you guys wanted to charge for for this podcast right you you know whether it's an advertiser or partner or or or listener could pick whatever price you want you know that's your call you know it's your job to explore the frontier of that price and volume curve and it your job to sort of find the maximum revenue you can choose to do that or not do that and i think that's why american capitalism is so great is like it's it's really the only person's call is the firm owner and the firm management team's call right it's not a politicians call it not the media call it's not the guy in the you know in the sort of grand call you know you know hoo and holler at you it's it's not even the patient's call even though they're your core cons and we care the most about them it's it's your call as management team right you said that price when you email the distributor that's the price that matters it's the price that you picked and nobody can tell you what that price is and any business and what was that what was that logic that you that sean was afraid well you want the criticism would be you you yes yes you had the right to raise the price that doesn't mean you're not a jerk or that people weren't hurt by that because they now couldn't afford it so now just that part of it the reverse psychology is the super poor through that in a second but i think the most of you know what you said is is really important because it's this like in invaluable right and i i was really pissed off quite frankly that there was this effort by by paul wannabe would be politicians that didn't end up winning and and others to try to sort of take that right away through like this regulation by embarrassment right like it was like this like we'll shame you until you change your mind it's like oh you're for the shame to changing my mind like you know that that's insane you're trying to take my my right away it's my right to run my business how i see fit now we'll go through all the logic of why i think it was a good idea an a ten idea and it's not something a jerk would do it's not something an asshole would do but just first and foremost you know how dare you try to tell me you know what my price should be because ultimately every person in america is working for some business that sets their price and you're basically saying well if you do it to me well you can do to apple next or are you gonna tell them the iphones to expensive you're gonna do it to your podcast where an advertiser says my god you want fifty thousand dollars to post to and adam like podcast well that's not right i want that for twenty five thousand i spoke you know what you you're y'all in the ad and anyway i think that there's the special difference when it comes to health care and i i've learned this it process it slowly and like i said i'll tell you briefly about my new company in a minute but people treat health products and services in a different part of the ride you know a friend of mine worked at am and got to talk to buffett about this where he said buffett likes businesses where consumers think about the brand with a different part of their mind they don't think about it with the part they think about with the emotional part and am is an emotional product coca cola is and emotional product you don't think about and say well soda costs you know sugar water costs twenty cents to make i don't wanna buy this for a dollar you know you you just buy the soda because he watch coca cola and and the more that you can make people think with that side of their the rain the better in healthcare care you kinda get this like very visceral like entitlement of like no i me this drug i don't care what costs for the producer i don't care any like this is my right to get this medicine and obviously you know that they're that's not quite right in my opinion so getting back to to sort of just like getting past my just annoy that there'd be people that sort of felt like you know they had a right to tell you what your prices should be without knowing anything about your business in the first place i think the biggest thing that work on with that soc method is just showing people how little they know about they're in this industry right most people don't know much about the farm industry and i'm blame them for that right this is an industry i spent my life in to know that it's an it's and out of pharma you know i once i would be i'd be surprised if anybody did so the first thing i tend to ask is well what price do you think product should be and this is sort of where like it all falls apart for for the inter like because the average pharmaceutical price would shop most people you know there are rare disease drugs like spin and the ave excess product for sma they're are millions of dollars you know it's a million dollars for drug a year you know so every year for the rest of your life you gotta pay million bucks you know they're drugs like that but you i think that out of pocket right it's nobody's paying out of pocket for that so say you know think that's you know the cost you know to the insurance company not to the end of patient correct you know we have this convoluted crazy system that generally needs to kinda be broken in half but you know and again i'll show you my product in a minute that unlike mark cuban garbage just might actually help the the you know the the first question i always ask people was like well what what do you where do you price a drug where you have i but i had a drug at retro ro sixty people took it six zero and they need it to save their life what what price should that be should it be the price of viagra no yeah yeah i but i believe in this thing called utility theory of price which i probably studied in in economics a long time ago but forgot but this this this idea is that price has three or four different theories of of price there's theory of kind of value there's theory of utility and there's sort of other types of theories like it should cost a lot of people sort of like would give me their theories in in late terms like well should cost what you made it plus a comfortable margin i okay that that sounds interesting and other people say land should cost what has worked to the user and and that's kind how most medicine is priced if you can for some terrible operation you know then in that operation is really expensive by taking this medicine it should sort of cost the price of you fore going that operation and it's like what for analysis right so for a lot of rare diseases it's like well but for this drug you would be spending hundreds of thousand dollars a year so it's kind of a bargain at say a hundred thousand dollars because otherwise the insurance is gonna spend half a million on you you know going to the hospital every week and so forth and so forth if you price it on based on what it would cost like okay well prices at a break even well i a lot of incentive to make a medicine like bad right you wanna kinda want this windfall profit if you're a broke company because you have this risk that this shit's not gonna work and then you know you'll you'll be you'll be on applying to a job at pfizer you know after your biotech startup fails so if you do win you can't just break even you know you have to overcome the risks and the risk adjusted possibility that you would have failed otherwise nobody would invest in companies like this if all the benefit was you would break even so you have to have this extra return and so if when you do the pricing i think that the best logical thing to do is pick a price that the alternative care in other words a world without this drug you would fore all those costs for this drug and so i think that price works they're people who you know just littered legitimately out of their mind that the drug should be just just be free and of you know we're we're who's gonna pay for the office who's gonna pay for lawyers who's gonna pay the account and who's gonna pay who's gonna pay for the research who's gonna pay for the next drug right if if every drug is free then nobody's gonna wanna go make drugs and again i if this if that's the system society dictated to me i you know all all those rules but this is the the the system society dictated was it's your choice what price for product that it's the insurance choice to pay for it it's a doctor's choice to prescribe it and there are countries like there's this miracle drug by vertex one of my favorite drug companies for cystic fibrosis miracle product literally cure for cystic fibrosis amazing system just no longer a medical problem for ninety percent of people with cystic fibrosis this company should have parades parades every year for it right but instead they get shit for it and i friends that if their lives have been saved one of my friends in high school died cystic fibrosis at nineteen and these guys have doing i i use this term very carefully god's work by by saving people cf up there are countries that refused to pay for the medicine ring is three hundred thousand dollars a year and my drug i asked people all the time well how much is my drug well say i haven't need seven fifty people plus that's not what i'm asking in pharma we don't worry about what the price we worry about what is it cost for somebody to have to pay for this medicine not out of pocket what is the insurance paying for a full course or full year right and they say i don't know how many pills do you do you have to take when you take this drug that you raise the price up and i said well why are you ready to criticize when you don't know what the total cost is you know you're you're already jumping off but you know why they're criticizing you which is like as i'm listening this this you talk like you have this very classic issue which is both an it's an asset liability which is you're quite logical so you're like just one guy i forget the guy's name the the guy who's running for president he just did what i did and he did it times ten but i did it early on which is like you filed a very logical thing which is we hear this all the time and we have friends like this whether it's like well i thought it could work because of x y and z and in most people's heads they would say themselves yeah but no one else is doing it there for it's impossible in your head which is a very common thing in entrepreneurs like you which is no like if a then b then c like the very logical approach but where you've have fucked up is you weren't it's like it's like you're so smart at studying the logic that you also kind of fucked up by studying like okay but if i do that then people will hate me therefore i should probably use these words or smile this way when they confront me and like that was like a you're it's kinda like what elon is doing it's like dude you're so fucking smart el elon you're doing all this amazing shit don't call twitter tit like think of a different troll that's a like that's a net positive not a net negative and and that what it seems like was your thing which is like yeah dude you're logical you're not wrong about this this and this but you're just being a fucking idiot when you're talking about it and you're not like like what don't smile that way congress you know even if you're out i respect it because i'm like i think you know and i'm sure you were told by people what the correct way to frame and spin this is and if exactly i so so i i could be i can be just like the guy at pfizer right just like right and i can and i and i think it's cool that you're not that guy it's like well that's the issue you could you could have saved seven years of your life maybe and only got what's just wanna been just like be a little bit more likable sometimes to save your own ass and sure and you know i i wanted to travel that line but like how much or like when i when i talk at ivy league schools i get standing ovation because i think that the kids realize that their life their personalities is about to be choked out by the the big pharma big corporate world right whether they're going to a pharma or they're going to to to finance their life is at is over you know their ability to express themselves the way they see fit is done right their the their ability to wear what they want to work is over and i think that i represent that fresh event breast to fresh they're like okay maybe actually keep a personality maybe you can actually be somebody real instead of you know look look at this average ceo of corporate america look about budweiser ceo and her bush it's like oh i i gotta say what is the maximally the least interesting and the least offensive possible road to walk and i can't have a real personality because if i do you know someone's gonna have an issue with it and it's gonna be a problem for my business just hate the that the corporate world has gone to that point where you know showing who you are or or the kind of person you are or having an opinion of any kind can be held against you i agreed and the world wants you to be vanilla i'm on look this is why people like our pod i also see the other side where it's like yeah dude but you just fucked up all those like i i don't know if this is true but maybe it is you just messed up all the people who wanted this drug because you got locked up and or you her your family or you her people who cared about you all because of you wanna to express yourself if you wanna express yourself get a fucking dog go hang out your cat like talk to them like you what mean sir that's that that's that argument which question is really important how many people could not afford or did not were not able to access the drug that previously could when the price was lower because the price got raised was it one percent ten percent fifty percent seventy five percent of people could no longer afford the drug because that's the key no zero percent and so so that's the thing that like you know not how far org so explain that part because i think that's the key consideration is if you raise the price of the drug and these people who needed it to pay for their their illness could no longer afford it and now they were sort of out you know should out of luck because you bought the drug and and decided to rep price it that would have been one thing i think there's a i think that would support the argument against in a way at least the emotional argument against but when you add the fact that nobody lost access to the drug or very small percentage if that's true i don't know if it's true i don't do i don't do the research on this but you're saying that that's true that completely changes the argument in my opinion i i think so too and and that's why like i was so bold and and tit to sam's point you know seemingly like tone ass right about this because i wanted people see well it's not a stupid person why is he being so tone deaf and ops in it hopefully it's because he's right and and let me look into that some people dead you know and that's why i've got fans you know i'm not billy mc or somebody like the hat i'll be able to raise money and start a new business because you know i accomplished things and i'm skilled guy it's it's this like failure to it it's it's desire to wanna buy an narrative from media or by by anger or rent anger that that's sort of accumulated to your people when it comes to medicine like like i said there are drugs far more expensive of than der and like five hundred thousand dollars or more per year dear a one time one course right so there not insuring in the world that didn't cover their because if you don't pay the fifty thousand dollars roughly with their perm costs for a whole course forget per pill about fifty grand if if you end up needing der if you don't pay that you're gonna pay for the guy's funeral you're gonna pay actually you visits you're paying for you know you're gonna pay for a million bucks of this guy being an icu for the next six months it doesn't make sense right financially to not pay for der room the other thing is it's such a small medicine this was less than zero point one percent of insurers budget right fucking not even a policy is being formed at ae united healthcare because it's like no they have automation policies for this stuff like until the drug ends up being like a couple more basis points no several dozen base points this just not gonna be a factor right they're more worried about is somebody taking insulin when they could be taking my metformin which is much cheaper right makes them make twenty thousand people moon from insulin internet metformin you know that or fifty thousand or or five hundred thousand people our policy is you gotta take otc before you get this that's prescription that's the kind of policies health care health insurers care about again you wouldn't know that unless you're in the health care industry right and the problem is when you have people that are that are shooting at you you know and they don't know what your industry about you know it it's it's akin to me telling like a database programmer or well you know no sequel databases are better than sql databases and he's like why where why are you saying that well and you start putting out all these data i'm like oh that's just that's just how i feel you know it's better to have a a no people than sequel i like i wouldn't do this because i'm not that intellectually dishonest but people are very willing to be intellectually dishonest when it comes to things they don't know about because you know it's a personal thing and again my my goal is to better understand how personal health care is to people that it actually is this cherished good in service it's not like food it doesn't have the elasticity a lot things it's a very unique product that we put in a different place and you know my my new company is has sort of an effort to sort of understand that make make amend make tenants in a in a way because i think that again health care is one of these goods that unlike most other goods there's a marginal the marginal demand demand for marginal health care is virtually infinite amongst the three of us nobody is willing to sacrifice marginal health care right you're you and i are probably willing to sacrifice marginal you know the clothing right there's only so much money i'm gonna spend in there's only so much money i'm gonna to spend on on this debt but if you had infinite money like you the the thing it probably prioritizes your health you know you're your likelihood well being and i think that that makes it kind of the special bit in service and that's why we've spent we've gone for sending five percent of our gdp on health care to twenty percent i think that's gonna go to fifty percent over time because they're are basic goods and needs are m head of needs or med you know we can eat we can have shelter etcetera etcetera we ultimately just wanna live forever there's so just the reason why the silicon valley trillion they want longevity right that you want like the they wanna be around burgers because you know larry ellis who a grew up kind of you know a little bit fan boy or worshiping you know his this life goal is to live forever and he's not gonna make it but this this idea that all these guys sort of have in their minds that if they spend their billions they'll they'll live forever it's it's there because they love their bikes right the that first in africa probably doesn't think about it that way i think they they like to but their their life's a lot harder in america we we're really lucky we wanna live forever because of that and i think that makes health you know one of these things where it's demand side driven you know we like to think that health care expenses are going up because of people like me or people like the my ceo or pfizer ceo only because we all demand health care we want help for everyone our families or friends are pro we all want health care you know to to we're gonna consume more and more of it over time sake i i wanna ask you about your new thing and then i wanna ask about your predictions but first when you got out of prison how much of that nut did you still have left and what are you doing with your money now what are you investing in now or are you just doing like are are are you even allowed to trade and are you just doing like boring index funds are you doing more risky stuff what are you doing yeah so i got into an a very interesting litigation so i was able to pay my court my my criminal finds very very relatively easily it was around eight million bucks in that process i i decided to sell the tang album which is a funny thing because there's this n bubble and i basically said like i turned this into an n nxt or yourself to a crypto pro like you know i'll i'll i might even get my money back on this thing because it was basically just you know a arc and i didn't think i'd i i i marked it is down like seventy five percent but i was able to actually turn a profit on it so was i was happy to time that bubble well so i was able to pay my criminal finds off the then got into this litigation with the ftc the federal trade commission actually personally sued me for monopoly i'm the first person in american history the sherman act which is a hundred and twenty five years old the first person personally be sued by the federal freight commission which is very odd because john d rockefeller fell il gates mark zuckerberg couple of people who are accused of mono monopoly their firms got sued i was actually the first person to personally be sued as a mono monopoly which is very odd and they won so i'm appealing that but they want a sixty million dollar hit against me so until i figure that out i'm sort of not not in the market it's very like bizarre ruling that i think will get overturned but again it shows you that kinda like an like this judge that made they're willing just well and we'll will that make you broke if it i had to pay the sixty i think i i could pay the sixty but it's it's just like a colossal you know just a colossal like you know in the gears of like stopping like the production basically so the company i also to ind fight so the company will probably have to pay it but it's it's just a big like cluster fuck at the moment so you know i'm i'm sort of focused that again the nice thing about being an entrepreneur and and having faith in your talent and things like that is that even if you wiped me out and started at zero i wouldn't have a problem i think you know getting making several hundred million dollars i i i think that any business i start you know it may not be this one or the next one but eventually with perseverance i'll have some great success and i think that there's not you know bone my body that doesn't believe that and i think when you can find great assets or great people and put capital together with that that you know magic starts to happen and and it's a infectious and contagious and you know as long as you have your sort of morning strange people able to do it and i think that we we've already started that process so whether this litigation turns out they'd have to pay you know six some amount of that's been paid by the company and i don't have an something gonna be a maybe off to eight thirty or forty million bucks and it would suck sure you know i'd have to sell so my farm assets i'd have to you know make room would i come be able to covered or not i might even a hundred percent sure but you know it all depends on the sale price but you know even even if you'd sort of took everything from me yet you know and and added another one hundred million i'd i'd sort of be you know you know cheer battled and say our eggs a big challenge but i'll do it you know and i think that you know i don't i don't view sort of wealth and and and success as as symmetrical or the same thing i sort of sit say that you know you know it's sort of almost like you know a challenge to sort of like do it the other way i know lot of people like they make money to be comfortable like i almost feel like i make money to be uncomfortable look i want i want the the bigger challenges the harder things to do like look at elon musk you got you you gotta ask yourself like why is this guy making his life so much harder new businesses new ideas like what is going on his head that he wants more pain because it's very painful to deal with all the heading to these companies oh half your advertisers just left at twitter oh by the way you still to pay the interest those bots like just he's sitting there they're like oh my god you know this is so much pain like why add this on top of my tesla issues because you know that a hundred issues of that company you know there's a hundred issues in basic then yeah business is going great of those companies but there's still intense issues that you have to deal with every day and you've got all their lawsuits and you've got all those things going on in your personal life you have eight kids i mean why add more shit to your to your to your thing and i think the answer for me is like i love it you know i i i love the game and you know whether or not you know my banks counts got this many zero seventy zeroes i you know it's it's not like you're gonna be spending it you know it's it's a it's just work you know i i i sit a room with my my team and i i work all day and that's it so for me it's it's like do i don't know if you fall in neville ball but he has his great quote he has this like twitter thread called how to get rich without getting lucky and he says something in there that i love what he goes i don't wanna just get rich i wanna be a person who gets rich meaning if you could drop if you took everything away from me and you drop me you know sort of like butt naked in a third world country in ten years i wanna be wealthy again and i think i have this i've built the skills in order to do that and so that sort of reminds me of what you're talking about which is like look you might lose everything that you made in the last decade or have have have this sort of like reset but it give you ten years you'll build back up and i think most great entrepreneurs are are built that way and wired that way and almost in a sick way kinda re that that opportunity when when that mis fortune shrek there is some fortune in that mis fortune when when when a situation yeah it's it's sort of fun i mean in some ways like i think a lot of people you know like come back story too you you talked about the like you know you didn't wanna be the pfizer ceo you didn't you you kinda do what you needed you could've have said and you decided like if that like i don't wanna i don't wanna do business i put putting words your mouth a bit but it's sort like i don't wanna be a ceo that type of ceo and i don't wanna play the game i don't like the world when it's less interesting when people don't actually say what's on their mind or can speak like a normal human being versus being like this like very tightly wound you know corporate you know duck and so i don't know if you've seen this but have you have you guys seen this movement that happened at stanford the fund strikes back movement same you heard about this yeah no it's awesome there's basically so there was like the student body election i guess and i don't know the full story because i just read about this i was read about this morning i was supposed be prepping for this but the story fast ended me instead and basically there was a group of people that are at have a group of students that were running at stanford and they won the election on this movement that they're calling fun strikes back and they're basically like dude you know campus in the university has just drained us of our personality it is trying to shut down all the fun things so they're like we are pro athletics we're pro attorneys we are pro parting and we are pro weirdness and they basically talk about like the the the story they do a great job telling the story they're like you know back in nineteen eighty one this you there's this f party where that they threw every year where there was sand all over the house like a beach party or whatever and at the end of the night like the the party was over people left but the sand was still there they're like shit what we're gonna do with all this sand we still have so much it's saying they're like what if we built an island with the sand and they're like there's this little lake what if we took all the sand at the middle of the lake we made an island and that could be our island and they like rallied at four or five in the morning and they go there and then the grounds like guys you can't bring a bull here like an escalator to like dump this here and they're like sir we wanna do this for this reason this is our moment this our legacy like think about this years from now people will wonder how the hell this island was built in tonight is that night and the guy's like alright go ahead and he like lets him in they build the island and it's this epic party whatever it's the epic finish and then like fast forward to today like the island got the island is gone the lake is gone they shut everything down nobody can visit that that little pond or that lake anymore because there was like an endangered sal alexander there so they're like no no shut it down guys and then like one by one they've kicked off all the opportunities from from the from the campus for like whatever violation they had a violation they removed them from campus they like scrapped all them like each each neighborhood used to have its own name and its own like weird weirdness they scrapped it all off and now it's just like numbered cells it's like you are on the d block six five seven and so it's dreadful yeah you're like you we used to have like the biggest part of the year was this anything but clothes party and they decided that that's too risky and it's not fair to everybody and they're like i wonder sean like who are the product like what did my prosecutors and like judges and like regulators and people like elizabeth warren what the day doing college this is what they didn't call they they shut down the party and they're like no this is defensive we gotta shut this party down right you know it's it's just like who are these people and why why do we ever let any of them have any power and it it's it's frustrating to me that like you know schools like stanford and many others have had to like go through this like identity any crisis of like i'm scared to say what i want because you know what if somebody's gonna be offended and it get becomes as meta game where like we were talking about like yeah could i like do the party line and say i'm really sorry my actions have caused you know some misunderstanding and w one have this non apology apology but then in like japan but way you say no can be found to be insulting so you just move the meta but like the next right you know level where it's like oh saw the way he said no he didn't really mean it you know where he said i'm sorry he was really ap there's a real way to say i'm you gotta bow a little bit deeper and it's like okay well so it's it's it's an insane meta where you're constantly just like getting to the next point of of like inhibiting your personality and and what are you really saying and just come on and say it you know and i think that that's a really freeing you know thing to do yeah i don't know if it's on subs but i'm under your newsletter and like you made some wild predictions i don't remember all the predictions but like you may you you actually had a really good post where you said like this is gonna happen i think in two thousand twenty three this will happen in two thousand thirty i think in fifty years this will happen and i i it would be actually be fun to look back at some of your predictions so far turning out to be true but it's very interesting and you're you're pretty good at writing actually you're you're quite good actually thanks a lot you know it's it's hard to write you know professionally like you guys in sam well i i know sean buzz for sure when you're an entrepreneur doing anything other than working under your business seems like a waste of time and and like a a really a painful thing to do because you have to provide for your investors or coworkers workers your old family the business who loves you know it's it's it's hard to to do a lot of writing and prison was a lot easier you know it was you know i had more time to sync but even then i was i was actually really busy people ask me if i was you know you know bored and prison and like it was the furthest thing from it a lot of people left me why didn't you get jacked up you know in in in prison i didn't have the time you know i was i was working the whole time so you know it's it's always hard to write a love writing but but to to do anything a lot of people ask me if i don't why don't wanna do a podcast and it's the same reason and you know the predictions about ai are or you know some of them echo kind of like other people's predictions you know in a long of ways we have large language models now they're really interesting they certainly provide for more eye opening potential predictions you know probably some of the craziest ones i've i've made including include things like they'll they'll be kind of inner species marriage between ai and humans they'll be ai fundamental rights for for for voting and things like that that'll kinda reshape society so they're they're pretty wild predictions but i do think will happen years from now and i do think we're starting to see some of those things pull in and get accelerated one of my favorite people john k recently upgraded his estimate of ag so called official general intelligence from fifty percent by twenty thirty to sixty percent you know john is like this very precise you know calculating nerd was you know get you know created the first person shooter or he you know brilliant guy and he's working on his own company which nobody's talking about called keane technologies and i think he's the only employee if i'm not mistaken so he's just sitting there life trying to create like this this brain and you know who knows i think he's a good dark horse for this race but now ag is like how is super captivating to everyone right like it's it's to me if you look at the history of humanity next to maybe relativity or you know a couple of other like magnet electricity like this is like probably more important and it's the first time humans will have created a mind from from nothing that's stronger than human and it's really like just so profound that you know i don't think anybody can afford to to ignore it it's more profound than the internet you know it's it's really you know something while now we don't know when we'll get it we'll get a partial version of it or we already seeing a partial version of it you know it's it's sort of early days but while i was in prison i was able to think sort of zoom out and think about that a little bit more than maybe the average person and it's funny if you look at sort of open and some other startups that are coming out these vis sort of companies like google and facebook you you see that they kinda did that assuming zooming out many years ago and the companies that are sort of missing this and messing it up are kind of like too close to the to to sort of reality and and the day to day product management to even see it and really understand it that people wanted this you know microsoft both both facebook and google had a sort of equivalent technology to open in my opinion years ago and they just still just haven't sort of seen the the actual product you know making sense and at launching and anyway you know it's a really interesting time obviously what's your what's the new thing so i'm releasing in the next day or two maybe even today on an ai position this this will go live tomorrow this will go like tomorrow so it might be up so what what is there a url so you're you're breaking the news it's so funny and happens stance because we're talking to like tech and like all these places we never we didn't really find like the perfect reporter who could report on this so here we go it's called doctor gupta gupta dot ai it's a the first of its kind ai physician it's basically going to be what i hope something that could drastically reduce health care costs and drastically proof helped quality by providing an ai of physician mimic basically sort of a synthetic ai doctor that that will can give you medical information and i think that you know most is there was your doctor or what doctor gupta like g u p t a dot ai i so the site's not up yet dot a r he happens to be indian but it's also gp so gupta so anyway doctor gupta will give you medical information and you can talk to him ami mitch free it's to me what a lot of people didn't understand about my price increase and stuff like that one of the other reasons i was up and they're like fifty of them is that ninety percent of health care costs come from physicians ten percent come from pharma what what did come from what does that mean we spend four trillion dollars on healthcare care in this country most of that money goes to physicians and healthcare care workers and a lot of that i love doctors all love nurses and don't anything against them a lot of those decisions can be done by machines a lot of those decisions thanks to open ai and and deep learning and l models can be done by ai so can we take that four trillion to make it two trillion that would be a big deal you know the whatever cuban doing is not gonna save anybody any money and it's not i gonna make mark any money either but this it could actually change the curve on health care give us a thirty seconds on give us a thirty seconds on why cuban thing you you you've referenced a couple times out it might be dumb or or or not that such a shit show like so so he's basically running the pharmacy right so he's trying to source drugs for cheaper they mind you every other pharmacy pretty good at sourcing medicine and i don't know how he's gonna get a deal on you know say t or her sons generic any better than than cvs or walgreens so seem kinda hard to do that right he's they he doesn't have the volume they have get that deal and then somehow get a margin pharmacy margins is a razor razor freaking set right you cannot take a three dollar draw get charged a hundred bucks for a pharmacy they're razor just look at ten q for walgreens and cbs like and make a fortune here and so he's gonna somehow get a margin out of that they're there's just it's just hoc is poc there's no actual way to do that you know it's it's a bunch of likes basically he's being dishonest so i'm on doctor up doctor gupta ai so i see the thing so i i tell it my age how tall i am my weight some of my vitals if i have lab results i entered in and then what's gonna happen next it's gonna say like you should check out you should work on this this and this no you don't actually even have to enter any of your vitals you could just have a conversation and we've programmed it using these like very you know intricate techniques i was actually you know a lot of people are talking about auto gp and and baby gp and i talked y and i talked to all of the people in men that's up you never know what people are doing privately but we started doing the auto reflective gp stuff six months ago and we're able to discover that depending on the technique you use you can get better chat results than chad gp and i don't think open disputes this we've screened thousands of messages that we tried with the system and we get better better performance and chat by making it kinda like auto reflect and do other kind of methods that get our secret sauce they'd get the chatbot to succeed so it's not so much about that medical view it's you can get physician quality advice for free at any time any hour so you and i may be able to call a doctor friend but most people cannot just decide at midnight that if they have a medical question that they can get an answer you have to go on google you gotta go ask web md and you're you don't know what you're reading half the time if if you're the average joe you know you're not trained in medicine if you say well what about my chest band which should i do you wanna talk to somebody you wanna actually have a conversation l do that amazingly this is is a is an attraction of gp four they'll actually let you have a natural dialogue with something that as you guys know gp four scores ninety percent on the us elite it's a ninety percent performing most doctors don't score ninety percent on the boards gp is a ace doctor when it comes to medical knowledge so being able to ask an ace doctor time for free about medical information medical advice know it's pretty profound product i think because again we spend trillions of dollars on physicians a lot of the physicians work to be done by ai and if it's an not uncomfortable truth that you know again it doesn't mean that we don't need doctors ever again in my world in my vision fifty years from now there's no such thing as a medical doctor there's no such thing as physician oh that's why on the site i can i can get fifty messages for free or i pay twenty bucks a month what's the end endgame here do you think this is gonna be a massive company or is this like a thing where you're like i don't know what's gonna happen let's let's figure it out or are you you trying to get after it what what are you trying to do in the next five or ten years with this business yeah i'm trying to make it a massive company i think that you know it you know it will be a massive company you'd you never say never in business but you know we're we're certainly gonna try hardest because i do think that you can all this is why technology has never really bent the curve for health care the cost of sending a megabyte the cost of sending you know storing down of the cost of compute all that has dropped by not just like ninety percent it's dropped by like ninety nine and and six more nines percent healthcare care has not moved a bit why it's because of this lobby that exists the ama restricts the amount of people who could become doctors the supply is constrained you cannot just graduate a million more doctors tomorrow if we could do that what would happen the price of medical services would drop like a rock we our country would be saved medicare medicaid wouldn't be going bankrupt we have you wouldn't it be bankrupt or bankrupt us if we had a million more doctors tomorrow health care wouldn't a problem in america the problem is we don't have a million more doctors in america one of the reasons is this is not gonna be million people who past med school the other problem is that ama specifically says there's only this many med schools there's only this many doctor's graduating med school we're gonna make it really hard to become a doc even though ai can do all these things very easily and you're gonna see a lot of industries collapse because of gp i think whether it's law medicine accounting there's gonna be a huge change in society thanks to ai and and gp so how is this not like self driving cars where even though self driving is almost like better than a human and in and a bunch of different circumstances maybe not certain weather conditions but if it gets one thing wrong it's you know all the news and all the lawsuits and so they need to be not just better they need to be so much better that they can kinda overcome that like how do you not just get sued out of existence for the you know the the the you know one mistaken medical diagnosis or or you know treatment plan or or whatever it is here how do you how do you avoid that problem sure i i think it's a lot like like self driving cars where if you gave me the story where there's fifty thousand auto fatalities here right in america and i can press this button right here and there's gonna be twenty thousand there's two types of people in the world there's the first type of person who says that's amazing thirty thousand lives saved thirty thousand less funerals thirty thousand less torn families destroyed by needless you know terrible you know automobile fatality what a horrible you know thing i'm so happy i can't wait to push that button you know anything stopping me for pushing that button is isn't insane right so why would you delay that for half a second and then you've got the kind of person similar to the stanford party who says wait a second are there gonna be twenty thousand deaths from from this that's an outrage i can't believe it don't push that button and obviously one side is riding what's sides wrong you know but the the the technical progress of of the world copy be stopped i'm part of this e group effective acceleration which is this like new movement that's counter effective alt who see the e forward slash acc we've got a lot of really exciting members some of the biggest people in technology and it's this sort of like underground movement of people who don't wanna slow down ai who people who don't wanna slow down technology and i think that you know the idea that we're here to stop progress because the technology might make one mistake and remember that's sort of like stopping the automobile because the automobile itself was an improvement over the horse we have to move forward in the world we can't look back and and nit pick on every single mistake in life and i think that's that's sort of know that's not how you feel sean but that kind of criticism and that kind of like attitude is such a terrible per threat to to our well being that like we have to look at that class not just have full because it's ninety percent full we can't look at the ten percent that's empty right yeah i mean i get it philosophically it's like the trolley problem it's like ten people the transient run over ten people if i pull this lever it'll run over those other two and you know there's a whatever people have people feel different ways about that guess what i mean is like practically speaking that for this company like how does this company not die because something like that's gonna happen what do what you gonna do like what do you think he's gonna play i purpose policies make sure that you understand that this medical advice doctor gupta is not a real doctor that if you use our website for medical information it's simply for informational purposes only and you have to i mean i can reach you a whole disclaimer but the reality of the matter is that do you want somebody who's seventy five years old okay who has pneumonia but doesn't know that they have pneumonia they have a cough but they're gonna die in pneumonia if they don't go to hospital in next three days do you want that person running around google trying to figure out if they pneumonia or not or do you want them to to go to an l what's better if you don't have the l they're gonna go google they're gonna go web they're gonna try to read it on their own they're gonna mess it up there's decent chance whereas if you go to l you might actually get the superior technology that may save their life so your net improving it and if you don't want a net improvement then you're elizabeth warren you're a lot you're etcetera etcetera and if you want the improvement you're on the side right side history and i think that if you look at the way technology informs regulation not the other way around right regulation has to serve the people if the people are getting the benefit the people will demand the right side if you have people that wanna stand in the way of of improvement that's up to them listen if if if we're told you gotta lock doctor group in this state or this country okay the philippines will have it remember gp is is is knows every single language it's right it's lang in every single language in the world so japan will have this for free tomorrow it's like people it's mister worldwide right it's a global product and that's the amazing thing about it at being a developer you normally have to worry about localization right language all that crap it's gone now at gp this doctor gupta knows every language you we they beta test this in spanish we do we might localize him and make him like doctor somebody else in in in latin america but doctor gupta to matches gp our other option was doctor lim ll so in oh we think doctor doctor gupta literally doctor gp honestly it's kind of a genius name as ad person i i will give it my seal of approval i think that's is very clever about was six months ago or nine months ago i talking to you and you had a crypto company that was like a three d modeling company for drugs what happened to that company did you ditch it or is you do both or what's all it's it's all under one hood so our company called deal software we've raised some some money from from some really well known people in in in the valley it's been you know again an interesting dilemma where you have like people who wanna support you like all these people actually said that my youtube finance videos you mentioned content creating that it it got them through like a student venture i a ton of those i watched all those thank you and and like i'm so lucky that these people some of whom started some of the biggest software companies in our industry the literally like maybe the top five unicorns and software like three of the four c games prolific it was like that we're we're like i messaged these guys like oh you're my teacher i'm like so flattered you know that these billionaires are are are like on my side happened and they're like yeah sorry really happened yeah a billionaire several billionaires you know several billionaires are or clusters are billionaires have match the subscribe button and hit the turn notifications on leave leave a message and the comments on youtube i love it it's really really humbling because it's like you know you know did you couldn't find that kind content where like you you could talk to somebody who who's publicly traded company ceo showing you like step by step kinda what their job was like and i think more than just like how to read a balance sheet i taught in attitude to that kind of the one thing i learned for grammar which is like this hardcore attitude of like you love this stuff you're up like people would watch me stream like four in the morning like getting ready to go you know tear tear the world and a new asshole because i'm so like excited about doing my job and i think it got a lot of people out of a fun out of like a a hard time and like just pushing people like push harder or push harder that worked for so many people at at these at these unicorns these mega unicorns these like ten x unicorns that that yeah that's why i said you're amazing at content because you have the the trifecta there's three things it takes to be great at content the first is unique perspective or unique unique po right so you you have unique a unique specific set of knowledge that the average person doesn't have okay that's most people would expect that now here's the unexpected ones you do energy transmission so most content is actually just transfer my energy and excitement or outrage about whatever it is to you and the if i'm able to express it if i can show you that i'm juice up about this i've watched you at your computer then you like get up you do push ups on the ground you're like pumped up about whatever or you're you're calling somebody out or whatever it is it's energy transmission and the last thing you're like a reality tv person you kinda know what you're supposed to say but you don't really care and you wanna say what you like you don't really care you care more about like saying the thing then what people will think of you saying the thing and some for some reality tv people because they're just not aware they don't know it you know it and you just don't care you like override that sensor and you're like no that sensor doesn't get to decide what's going on here and so you have you have all three and i think that that's what makes your streams so impressive like you said at the beginning of this i don't do the like just wing it but i i've seen you just wing and i actually think that's your best content so i don't know what you meant by that it just like closing the loop on it like i i only started those streams because you know i didn't want people to think i was the farmer bro which i was like being to characterize as and i basically wanted people to like judge for themselves like see a day in my life see if like you think i'm a dick or not and some people said yeah i still think you're dead but it's few people said you know i like this guy and you know maybe this is like a little bit of what i wanna be like and so the point is like i'm so lucky that the people watch that in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen obviously not all of them became successful but a handful of them the top couple people became unbelievably successful and that's maybe because of me maybe not because of me maybe in spite of me you know but the the the whole point that they some of them think before it is as i'm i'm really lucky for that i have three software products under or are sort of umbrella here but i think the like the key thing our company is is getting amazing talent you know in in any industry but especially in tech like the only really thing that matters is this combination of capital and and people and you know the capital is easy to get you know there's there's infinite capital in the world it's it's about you know do you have the people to execute the plan and and i'm so lucky that like a little bit of this personal profile gets great engineers to come the table and talk doesn't always get them door but the fact that like we can do that and the like the one skill i have as a manager to your to your to your point is that energy transfer of like getting people like can you can i pump you up about making a synthetic doctor well to some people that might be really boring and if you pitch it the wrong way if you're like at a big health care company you're like well we're gonna make a medical information you know diagnostic tools etcetera etcetera it sounds like shit you know but if you if you'll do it the right way and you explain to the engineer that there's if we do charge jobs right there's no such thing as a doctor in thirty years that every operation every prescription every piece of medical advice you ever get from that on comes from a machine and it cost ten cents that changes the world that's something that you're gonna leave a legacy we're gonna make a fortune we're gonna have a lot of fun and it's gonna change the room for everyone for the indonesian that can't see a doctor for thirty days and the doctor they're seeing is a very questionable variety you know and and in providence to be able to get the best medical expertise of an american physician that's insane right and and we're getting that tomorrow and i think that again you can't get a prescription from doctor gupta he's not gonna cut out your bun but i think that the fact that we can even talk t touch five ten percent of health care costs that's hundreds of billions of dollars it's bigger than google's tampa and so like you know health care is one of these just gigantic spots that has never been chunk by by technology despite the best attempts of sand hill road like a billions dollars flew into digital health there's just no obvious way to take a sled chamber to this you have to understand that health care is is basically all money that goes to people who just s it around for this like very ai simple simple problem for ai for that little advice of yeah you should take this beta blocker or should not take this beta blocker we should do the surgery and not do the surgery and that human advice is really important but at the same time like you know a good chunk of it could probably be automated it the last thing i wanted to bring up was like so i i ran this company called the hustle which we wrote about you and you actually were homie with b this woman who worked for me and you're were like at one point we're like hey come visit me in san diego and i remember like yeah chong yeah and i remember like right when your story broke it was pharma bro and then i got to like i we you and i chatted it on black before and i i don't know if you remember what we talked before i'm like it's funny this guy is not really a bro at all like he's he's just a nerd he's just like you like you know he talks a lot like and he's confident but he's like like a pretty nerdy guy and the reason it it's so funny about media perception the reason your story did i think the way it all like started was you have this picture i'm looking at it at it now it's you wearing like ray bands and a red polo and you have like a picture of it looks like flow writer in the back like on a music video to bug got and you're like pointing down like this and you're like your jaw line looks cut and you look like the bro bros and i remember when we wrote the story in the hustle we tried a bunch of different photos and that photo did best because it's just like you're just like giving into this big old stereotype and we just made we just made this strike fucking picture ruined you man so the backstory is funny like we had just on this stock trade it was in my personal account made twenty million dollars shorting the stock called vital therapies they were developing a liver dialysis machine we spent day and night stalking this company and figuring out everything about the attempt to make a liver dialysis machine works for kidney really well they wanted to take that same idea and apply to the liver sounds good right doesn't work there a lot of technical reasons me and two colleagues spent day in day out stalking figuring this coming out we wrote a forty page report we put the report out the stock felt like forty percent just on the report two week later the drug the device ended up proving that didn't work it didn't help anybody with severe liver disease then the stock went down like ninety percent and we were short the stock and so the day went down we did that the flu on is called it's going down or something like that and i was like know doing this like thing because like we thought these guys were basically fraud you know lying about their liver device which had proven that it doesn't even help people it probably hurts them but they were still trying to get through that like venture cap little grind and and and public the company grind of like lying and trying to make shit stick and and make put the best you know spin on things and so when we shorted it and it went down we it's going down you know that was the kinda of joke and i was like oh how funny would it be if i you know dressed up like a girl for a second and then like we had a friend in the trade too we had a couple of friends in the trade like putting it on twitter was was kinda like a oh check it out like it's going down because us because we wrote the short report and again what the next like two weeks the same i made it like my profile pick and like next two weeks like that that's what everyone seized on was like oh who is man this picture yeah like this picture is like it's just so funny like i i don't know the whole facts of your story and you admitted admitted wrongdoing doing and everything but it's like it was it was amplified and this picture was like the beginning of the end for you this one picture that's what it seems because i remember this one picture going the beginning of an interesting story i like i to me like yeah i'll take it and try like you would look at it and many other people look at as the beginning the end i look at it as life's a just a crazy ride it's a crazy movie you know it would be very boring to like be a value investor for the next fifty years and make a hundred billion dollars doing graham and dodd stock picking like it's right for somebody else thought right for my life and it is the path i chose you know not like you know it was an intentional choice you know maybe not the wisest choice but it is the choice for me and you know i i don't regret having had like a really interesting exciting life there moments of it that weren't fun but there's it's still one of these things where i'm not like deeply ashamed of like something i did or something like that like it's a conscious choice i made to sort of like do the things i did the photo was you know it was alarming to me that the media could take like an image and say okay this is this person what's let's cast it this way and i think it's sort of backfired in the long run you know i i'm sort of more popular than ever and you know kind of doing just lying so so if you that does a price to be paid if you could go yeah if you could go back would you have advised you know if you can go back and kinda whisper in the ear of yourself at any point in time you know would you have told yourself hey if you go on tv don't don't don't say that thing don't don't be sm don't do this don't do that would you have played it differently knowing what you know now i think i i think like you know there's two sides of the story with like the rational would say of course you know like tone it down here you know tuck in your you know tuck that in then tuck in your shirt there you know straighten up there metaphorically but the the i think the the oldest wisdom is know thy myself right and it's like just be yourself know yourself the the who you are and like if you spend the rest of your life trying to make somebody else happy in in conforming to society it's gonna be not a life worth living and if you spend your life answering to your own conscience i think then you know you you can no matter what happens no matter stick put you jail for less your life you'll you'll have the at least have something that we could take away from you which is like your your your own identity and your own personality and i think there's also like william wallace you're you're like william wallace and in brave heart you know they'll take our freedom or whether they say they'll take our lives they'll we'll never take our freedom you know there there's there's there's a point in time where you have to be real person and i think like if you wanna be a corporate sort of like mimic of like every other corporate person in the world no that's that's a life if issue that's life you want that that's life you want i there's just only so much of that life that that i can take and for me i had it when it came to like the media like you said you know with with the full right of picture or or whatever the type casting it was like you know i i can't that's that's a line that was too much for me so i think it it's it's probably more reactive than anything else like hillary clinton tweeting at me and stuff like that it was like social real like me you know the mild mannered pharmaceutical executive driving i am the of your fucking born you know this is nuts you know so a lot of it was that like provoke and and be provoked like it it you know it it it was not like easy to to sit there and just do nothing so like it's easy like yeah i'll turn it on you guys like it's very easy to sort throw advice out but when you hot seat and somebody says oh aren't you this and aren't you that and y you say well you know i'm sorry i caused some disturbance here and i'm just really you know yeah it's really hard to do that you know sometimes you first of all that's hilarious second of all you don't know a super well but best before our old kinda of podcast setup sam used to have these photos on the wall of like his hall he's like personal hall of fame and it'd be like you know some inspiration from business like sam before he started the hustle he really loved ted turner he's like dude this guy like made the fucking news business and he's a baller like he he attacked it in this way he had nate diaz up there he's like love this guy he's a fighter he's like just badass ass and just takes this attitude into into life that's that we like you know i like conor mcgregor and i think you know he's interesting and i i like you know certain things that he's done about he's like you know i don't like all of these people i just like certain things i took inspiration from certain things at certain periods of certain people's lives who were kind of who are some people that you were inspired by either in the business world or the non business world that that you think are you sort of have admired or you've gone down the youtube rabbit hole and just you know binge a bunch of their content or whatever i'll start with vince mc you know so written when nice when i started to be this like bad guy and i realized that there was nothing i could do to change our narratives like i could do a an interview with abc you're the heel and they would take the the thirty seconds that fuck me and and make the thirty seconds loop and like forget the other you know hundred and nineteen minutes those thirty seconds are are the ones that are gonna be on tv i realized like there's no way out of this and i'm gonna have to embrace being the bad guy and some people will get the joke and and some people won't but you know fuck it if if if if that's what people want then i'll be the bad guy and i sort of embrace out being the jerk and trying to dress down you know the so called authority figures by by sort of pointing you know pointing the the mirror back at them so vince vince sort of like had that like ka wrestling you know they call it a heel and wrestling where you know he's he he's the owner of the company but he's also kind of like breaking down the fourth wall of like some of the stuff he's talking about on the show is like related to actual boardroom battles and like some of the third you know stuff on the show is is completely con controlled and you know it's just a fantastic product and then i i like the company and what they've done with it over the years so you know i'm a big fan of vince is you know i i i like a lot of to like different scientists and stuff like that you know so business people themselves you know there there aren't of whole lot that i like point to and say oh that's somebody i'd i'd like to be like or something like that but growing up by always like bill gates who was kind of this you know smog hated by the way in ninety four bill gates was was sued for monopoly but his company was not him and people wanted to tear this guy apart i was sort of coming up i was like eleven years old i love computers i started programming and i was like everyone hates bill gates in the after community hated bill gates and and it's because he wanted to make money and he not all all jed about it and i kinda like this guy and i like the of being like you know what i like microsoft i like bill no one's will say that and like we wouldn't have these things that we're all using microsoft products right i what we be doing without it and you know the linux nerds would be like well you know we can we don't have to use them and it's like what the whole world's using them for reason they're pretty good products and i i just sort of liked taking that bad guy and at the time it was so really aided and sort of saying you know i'm on his side you know the media was on his case because he was the richest guy in the world but couldn't afford a good haircut you know they always just dogg him for no reason and he spent the rest of his life like trying to walk back on that and like how cool it had been if he sort of embraced the narrative and like yeah you know because private lead does embrace the narrative right it's just an it's just sort of this public image of like no no i'm i'm this ben philanthropist you don't understand privately the guy still just as ruthless still just as vicious and and just as energetic and intense as he was when he was a kid so you know it's it's all this like you know imagery for for nothing there's a number of other folks like henry nicholas who started brought calm you know i mean i there's just so many people that you know i've i studied business over the that i i like tom pet from interactive brokers so many people admire that that did did things their way and and me to work people especially who who sort of have come from nothing or came from like with very little on their back a lot of people dog george so you know who's you know a a true american success story and people sort of forget that you know or don't understand that like all the stuff in politics and like so funded prosecutor and stuff like that god barely pays attention that shit you know i think that like the idea that he's spending his day like plotting with you know the you know the world economic forums like run the world is this like right wing mean that's just not not based in reality and you know the guy's work in hedge bonds and investing is is like truly remarkable how he came from like sort of the you know world war two basically to to america to come truly successful so people like that i admire you know anyone who sort of have this against all odds type of success you know even people like robert smith you know who run vista you know people who have like really buck you know any conventions and expectations of them to to be really successful so there's so many people that i have up there on that wall and again it's not you know every like you said it's not every piece of their life but little pieces of have sort of made me i have built mine because of the the interview were about the chair jumping over the chair jumps chair one of the the i still think that's the most gangster like ceo interview moment i don't even know how this came up and then he he's she i think the interview was like i that you could you know how to jump over a chair he goes yeah no he goes do it it goes and it depends on the height of the chair and then it cuts to a chair and clearing it like tony hawk and i have no explanation why this was like is this a tv interviews or like back then like i i can't imagine something like that's like being like donald trump like is it true you could win an arm wrestling match magic against to anyone he's like well rolls up his sleeve and like punk puncture not much of this video by the way amazing the it's not that impressive it's not a big chair you don't think you could jump over a gym would have it's an a nerdy king nerdy shrimp guy he's actually five eleven but like there's this he doesn't look pressure jump over that chair yeah yeah dude he takes a step i bet you could jump over to chair bro you need a chair i'll give you a chair well john i wanna recreate this we'll put it on our youtube i don't think i could jump over this chair and i was like i played basketball i think i i was i would in my head i'm more athletic than bill gates but obviously i can't claim that until i do this chair oh no man he's probably only thirty five in this video i think you can eugene turn thirty five next week it's perfect me verse bill gates head to head paper view we gotta do it martin thanks for doing this man thank appreciate it we i know that like i don't i won't out you but i know that you've got like some anonymous account online normally when we talking where could people find you but for you you get banned every like third week so it's not that useful and we were like is are we even talking to the real martin it's even gonna come like what is the we weren't even sure if we're were talking to the right guy the interesting thing about that is i think the world's changing you quite a bit like like the sensitivity of banning people on twitter has now given away so i'm actually starting to talk to twitter i still need my old twitter account is at morgan sc it's in the process hopefully being on ban but any anybody that could help me get that on band i'd i'd really appreciate it right now met marty underscore cat boy which that ex girlfriend made for me which you know has stock for some reason not like crowd as twitter handle and on instagram on march crowley fifteen but yeah i i love social media but you know getting banned from i'm banned from tinder and hinge and you know like so many odd you know social media want youtube but you're banned from tinder wide i don't know i think like part of it is this that's like the definition of a cock block right like you the they just banned you from dating what's going on i i think this cancel canceled culture like extends into virtually anything right and for tinder it's it's you know you can argue that like well how do we know it's the real person right that that's sort of one argument but even then like i just think there's somebody at the match but just doesn't like me but you know it is what it is i'll live but yeah know twitter is is like this my lifelong long goal is to get on banned from twitter because it's been seven years and i actually went to jail for shorter period pine than i've been in twitter jail so like you know it i i was banned prison came out and i'm still banned for did you get banned like you like asked somebody to get you a lock of hillary clinton's hair wasn't that the the reason why it wasn't bad it was it was i was teasing this woman who who i was it was like this very left wing journalist and i was kind of like rib her a little bit over politics and stuff like that and and apparently i went too far but like it was obvious you know selective bias i mean it was like insanely selected for a time band you know it was a joke i made about her husband or something and it was just like two four and it's like look words are dad and dangerous you know they're did yeah i nobody's getting heard by these words you know and and they're going back and forth it's a two way street you know but it you know what i did was way too over the line and what she did was totally fine you know it was just this like insane perspective so i'm hoping elon or somebody can get me on band because it's been seven years and i was skyrocketing with followers and views and that's the thing about cancel culture right do you have somebody who's taking off their narrative is is boosting they're improving i was improving my reputation der was starting to look like the rear mirror me i was moving on the controversy was over revenue was doing fine and then you know twitter said no get get let you get going right and it's like if you try to stop people from like taking back their narrative and you you you can halt them like that it's very dangerous thing for tech to be able to send people like that like imagine having somebody become really controversial and say no i wanna tell lies side of the story and somebody says no you don't get that chance you know it's kind of disgusting thing well dude we appreciate this man that you're fascinating person and we hope that i imagine we'll be talking more i'm very curious to see how doctor doctor gupta is gonna do but thank you for for coming and doing this we were like i said we were like i'm not sure if he's coming or not we're not we're it was fifty fifty chance so i'm happy we made this happen and we appreciate you thank you so much guys alright we'll talk soon awesome that's it that's the pod