alright this is gonna be a special episode i think that the best episodes we do are the ones where we highlight a business or a person who is amazing that you've never heard of and that's what today's episode is the person that we have on jess m she has built herself i don't know ten companies that have combined you know they're worth nine hundred and fifty million dollars she and not only that just has she made a bunch of money or been successful with business but she's just a force of nature people that i respect think she's one of the best entrepreneurs in the world and that's kind of amazing for somebody who you don't know her name you'd never really seen her to interviews you know paul graham when when he met her and she's was at yc put her on the very short list of a couple people with sam alt and a few others as the most impressive people the people that he thought thirty years from now will have done done the most and gone the furthest i was at a dinner that's how i met her and a friend of mine pointed out he goes is that woman over there is the best entrepreneur i've ever met and he's lived in silicon we can valley for fifteen years and to say that that's high praise so i had to have her on the podcast to talk about everything from her beginning where she was basically a loser amongst loser losers in school she talks about like you know not only was she not cool even in the computer club she got bullied and didn't really fit into school didn't get good grades really like was just kinda like school wasn't for her she ended up dropping out a high school because school wasn't for her she's but she started a business and it started off as a very and you know when she was a teenager you making hundreds of thousands of dollars on this little server business that she was creating just paying for her own video games we talk about that all the way to where she is today building these biotech companies that are doing crazy stuff and i asked her i was like were you like a science genius hi how did you know to go with this how you have the confidence to go into a space like that like i think we all i think there's a part of all of us that wants to go do the big bold crazy change the world thing but we're afraid like who am i to go do that at least that's a i thought i've had and it was kind of amazing to hear her talk about she felt the same way like she's like i gotta see minus in biology and now i have like a nine figure you know hundred million dollar plus buyout company like that's crazy to do that and and how she approached that how did she meet these scientist how did she put get the funding how did she actually talk herself into doing that from rock bottom where she was completely depressed and didn't know what she wanted to do with her life to now you know living the kinda life she wants the other thing that's in this episode that i think you're gonna like is she talks a lot about the lifestyle and financial stuff that come from people who are already really successful so she you know like i'm gonna give you a trigger warning now she talks about like you know yeah i just like i hop on my jet like you know and i bought this jet i bought it for this reason here's the tax write off that i got she's very open and very clear about this stuff and and i think for some people who are at the very beginning it's gonna feel un unrelated it's gonna feel like oh yeah you know the the classic youtube comment guy who's like easy for you to say you're already rich but i think the important thing to figure out is she successful because she always thinks this way she she talks about her mindset and that's why she was able to do this and also i love when people talk about money stuff i love when they're open and honest i hate the billionaire who downplay it and pretends like you know their flying coach and oh you know money's no big deal and i oh yeah i don't i don't really do anything with my taxes no i like to hear what people actually do how they use money to improve their life how they architect their businesses she does that she's very open about it so that's all this episode i think you're gonna enjoy it this is an episode with jessica yeah i feel like i can rude to wear know i could be what i want to put it all in in like a days off on a roll alright it's good to see you good to see you again i wanna tell people the story of how we met which is not like this extravagant story but it is one that i don't know it's like it's this thing that happens that it's i i would bet anything that you're an interesting person just on the way that this meeting went so we got a dinner together that's like signal one you know a a friend host of dinner and it's like only friends inviting friends to this thing that's gonna be like a you know some sort of founder or investor type of dinner so already you got filter number one filter number two is i'm sitting at one of the table you're sitting at the far end this side the table but our mutual friend ta tells me he's like i was like oh what's her name and he's like yeah that's just m he says he's like yes she is the most impressive entrepreneur i've ever met and i was like okay i didn't even ask and he just says that and he's gave basically gives to this extreme compliment and i was like that's extreme and he's like yeah she's extreme and i was like okay i gotta know more so already i got a signal next thing i noticed that you had your dog in the restaurant and i was like okay that's awesome love dogs dogs here and later i was like is this like a service animal because it's kinda like a nice restaurant and you're were like yeah amazon you could buy this for ten dollars this vest and like look and you flash me like an fbi badge that was like a service dog thing and i was like did you buy that so idea you're were like yeah this is great and like i was like wow this person is just you know so there's a all a little signal somebody rolls by their own little rules my friend telling me that you're you know one of the most bad people that he's ever met literally in the game of entrepreneurship and and then when you did your intro you said something you go yeah i'm working on like yeah i started this thing in romero which i've heard of and you were like you know it started that and now i i said on the board like you whatever ten companies and we do like bold science bets and you didn't even explain it and i was like okay well you have my interest what's a bold science bet you're were like you know like curing cancer but not like the typical way like this other path to curing cancer you're like you're like kinda nonchalant gave you some answer as to what a bold science bet would be and i was like okay say no more i need to meet this i need to get to know this first and i've gotten to know you a little bit now and yeah you are just that impressive so this is my build that is my perception and tell me what that feels like to hear because that's people never tell you their actual perception first impressions as they remember it you know in their own head absolutely it was super fun to have that dinner and meet you that i i just had a good feeling that we were gonna have a fun sign and normally i don't go out kinda like a loner i like to be at home and you know just take it easy accurate work and you know it's a lot to deal with with ten companies we're gonna add more companies this next year and i'm trying to figure out like where do i wanna spend my time as an entrepreneur and that's an ongoing question i'm sure we'll talk about that but i've heard about you you know i've i've seen your podcast and you're famous so it's kind of an honor to get the be friends with you too so well the other thing that's cool is you have a hold c and like you know if i was gonna say what are some of the themes of like almost like entrepreneurship trends like it there's fashion trends but now there's entrepreneurship trends one of the entrepreneurship trends is this whole personal hold c model but what most people are doing with the personal hold call i would say is kinda like small boy stuff it's like we acquired this little saas app or like you know i'm gonna i'm gonna buy this this plumbing business and i'm doing this hold code to roll these up and you kind of have a hold code but you also have the big venture change the world kinda thing inside of it which i find really fascinating so you're like yes i'm doing a hold c but the hold code is gonna be all sort of game changers to type of like go bigger or go home type of bets i find that really interesting i also think that another entrepreneurship trend is doing hard stuff so i think elon really popular know popularized like yeah you can create the next kinda of app and that's cute but i'm gonna make rockets and electric cars and then you know then you have ai and sam alt and that's like you know the kind of cutting edge science do hard stuff movement i think you're a part of that too and so i really like that you're here because you represent you know some intersection of these trends and there's very few people that really play that game and that's what i wanted to to learn from you today is is why do you play that game and how do you do it but let's give people like i guess the quick background of you so can you give me kind of like your how do you introduce yourself when you're trying to brag a little bit about you know why anybody should pay attention to what you have to say i'll i'll be honest i'm really shy and it's hard for me to talk about these things because everyone i needed so impressive so no matter what i feel like the dumbest person in the room and the least successful person the room and and so that's really hard for me to talk about still but just to catch everyone up i'm an entrepreneur i've started sony companies now my first company was called ind aero and in an era is a financial saas company we do accounting tax build fee management software and services for businesses and our customers were companies like slack right pinterest door dash insta car coinbase base and i started at street after college i said computer science at uc berkeley and when i was the senior at berkeley i was running the computer science club and i brought in the speakers and one of the speakers i brought in was this kid named sam alt he was building a company called loop and i'm like hey he's down what i do app college and he said oh should you and you helped review my application and another the rest of history you said cited did that for ten years through that a few hundred people valuation in the hundreds of millions of dollars but the way i built that business was i didn't raise traditional venture funding i didn't bring in vc capital i i only brought in some major investors i was able to retain most of the ownership in the company and and it's a cash you know profitable business to the day so so that was kind of my first foray business and lots ups and downs and like you know being weeks away from ins solve multiple times over and i think it's because we were under capitalized and i always ran things a little too close to the edge there and and i was pretty public about that i mean if you google search me you'll see that i've survived a bunch of your death experiences with that business and eventually i i realized i didn't want to be a ceo anymore i grew up with this mindset of you have to be the operator and if you're not the ceo and make a company at unicorn you are a failure and i just didn't that didn't lead well with me i i google searched you know the world's billionaires and i'm like how do these people become billionaires and most of them built companies a lot of that were diversified holding companies and they held on to these companies for decades and a lot of them they weren't the ceo or the operator they were more like investment manager and i mean warren buffett it's a great sample of this but there are many many more like that and so that kinda got me thinking am i doing this wrong am i just listening to silicon valley rhetoric that's pointing me in the wrong direction and and then a few years ago i went through really tough experience where my boyfriend who i i was living with died unexpectedly and i was going through really dark period after that where i was not able to work i just couldn't i woke up in the morning and i'd be super depressed and i didn't want to do anything and i thought what would i do if if i was gonna die this year if this was my last year here because i'm so depressed and i have to make myself happy what would i do and running a company was not on the list so i immediately hired a ceo for an aero i had another company that i had started that i brought in a friend to run it's litigation fintech company and that company originates and funds lawsuits so you know like the personal injury billboard billboards you see on the side of the road we do that in a very sophisticated way a lot of details i i really would wish i could talk more about but you know i don't wanna invite competition there and then i've started a bunch of other interesting businesses like that which also if you go look at my website mo dot com i don't go into much detail actually i don't mention any of the detail on these businesses for the same reason i'd rather build quietly and come up with these really interesting ideas find someone go build those businesses and a good chunk of them are businesses that would just print cash but a lot of them are more bold and that's why got interested in the biotech stuff i just thought would i do if i wasn't scared of failure and after my boyfriend died i thought a lot more about that i thought like i shouldn't be scared of trying and failing because i'm seen rock bottom i can't my life can't get any worse than it is today so i might as well try something you know and that's that's where i landed with that that's an amazing story and that question of like what would i do if i wasn't rate of failing is like up there in the pant of great questions i asked myself that same question and it changed i wouldn't be doing this podcast if it wasn't because i had three paths that i had written out i remember i made a fig file and i was like drawing like a flow chart of my life and i was like i could start a company and maybe it'll be this maybe it'll be this and that was like you said the silicon valley rhetoric because what gets written about is the visionary ceo founder who creates the next big thing and that's the movies are about social network and you know the the tech articles are about that the vcs want you to be that because they're like yeah sweet i get to write a check and chill and like you go do the like you go win the lottery and do all the hard work at the same time like do the low odds hardest thing you can do you know over there so i was like i could go start a company i could invest and just kind of like be on the other side of that that's i don't know if that would be the most fun thing that i would do and i was like and i literally wrote or i could beat tim ferris and i was like i think i would've beat tim ferris i was like well why don't i just do that i've been thinking about this for like seven years in the back of my mind i was like well because what if i'm not what if it doesn't work then i'm just a guy with a podcast it's cool to be too ferris it's not cool to be the guy with a podcast like a podcast just normal podcast over with a hundred views or listens forever episode or something and i was like alright so i just gonna not do it because i'm afraid that i might fail at it like what's the worst i could have i hadn't had this whole talk with myself you know the most important talks are not with mentors and the talks with yourself and it sounds like you had one of those two where you were like what would i do if i if i wasn't afraid to fail can you just talk a little bit more about that talk with yourself because i think everybody should have that some version of that talk with themselves yeah i i think just to expand on that a big question i asked myself was also how will i deal with the insecurity of feeling like a beginner and terrible at something despite the fact that for the past ten years i got pretty good at being a ceo and running a business i'm sure you felt the same way right where you're a great entrepreneur and then now you're getting into you know building content and interviewing great folks and that's the new skill set that you had to become good at but for a while it's awkward and like the you're i'm sure your first videos were not nearly as good as the ones that you posted over the past few months right and so that's a lot of this self i'll talk it's like oh my god i didn't do a good job i still don't know what i'm doing people don't take me seriously do i even take myself seriously and meditating on that and thinking you know what it doesn't matter because i'm having a great time i'm learning a lot and the outcome will work itself out that's how deal at it but how out for you like what's what are your other best practices yeah so being a beginner it being okay like that mental prep for yourself of i'm gonna be a beginner at this i think is also a very important part of that conversation i'm glad you said that because it's one thing to just say well would i do if i afraid but then like the fear is still gonna beat there it's not just gonna disappear when you ask that question and the fear is what the fear of being wrong being failing looking dumb all those things and so that beginner conversation is important which is cool if i go into this i'm gonna start as a complete beginner i'm gonna get better at over over time because i'm good at learning and i'll try and you know if i don't need to become the world expert at this but i need to become competent at this and that might take me six months to a year that's like reasonable expectation if i really put my mind to this it reminds me of the story i've told on the pod before of mo ali who created native deodorant and deodorant not curing cancer or whatever but it is you know still it's a totally different space and so when he told his friends he's like think i'm gonna create a deodorant brand and they were like cool random you know do you do you even wear deodorant like do you know anything about deodorant and he's like today i know nothing about deodorant but in six months i'll know everything i need to know about deodorant and that idea of like writing yourself a blank check i think is really important to to starting anything and you told me this when i was like dude you're like working on crazy science stuff i like that idea and i wish i could do that but it feels above my intellectual pay grade are you just a science genius and you were like no i got like you were like i got like i a c in biology in school and then like you know you're like i hired a tutor to like as an adult to like learn about this and i watched ted talks and podcast podcasts and and then i flew out and i met the scientist and talk to them you just did all of the like normal blocking and tackling i feel with like just like is that how you would describe it because that that was totally different for me i just put you on a pedestal like oh maybe she's doing it because she's just smarter than all of us and that's why she could do this and nobody else can no i still have when drink security use it out about this in fact last night i dreamt again this is our recurring nightmare where i am getting c's in school and i am very close to flu and having to repeat grade and i got seized in by and also in biology when i was in high school so i thought i could do a lot of things with my life but anything related biology is not one of those things and then when i was size was on the cover of anc magazine a bunch of years ago and there was a woman who who was on the cover a month before me her name's elizabeth holmes and you know obviously y'all all know what happened and so once she got you know when third went under and the whole thing happened i thought wow bio is really hard and i would be so paranoid and scared doing anything in biotech because i don't wanna go to prison now obviously you know there's more to the story there and i don't think i'm gonna do go to prison but like the thought across my mind like should i even risk my life in my career if everything's okay like why do something hard and where the last woman who tried to do something here you know got you know totally destroyed by the media and it is now in prison like that's not a really good inspiration for me to try to be the next elizabeth holmes but he didn't fuck up as bad you know that's so that went through my head and i how to overcome that and then eventually i decided you know what fuck it i wanna give it a try elena you know just learning so i hired a biology tutor i like i digested all the information and i brought in people who've been running biotech companies and who had been part of big bio so that's that's really how i offer operate it's just bringing other people smarter than i am another question i would wanna ask you and it's something i asked a lot of my best friends is what would you do if you were a billionaire and if you had like billion in hard cash in the bank account and you are not allowed to do what you're doing today how would you about your life and it's so fascinating to hear the answers that that i i get from my friends and i'd say occasionally it's i i'm doing what i'm doing today i would just keep on doing that i i hear that from my more successful friends but from people who hadn't meet it per s it's very thoughtful for provoking that is a great question i can tell a quick story and then i'm gonna answer that question so the quick story version is when we got acquired by twitch i grabbed i was like first day what do i wanna do i was like let me go find my people because i went into this all of a sudden i'm in a company of two thousand people who you know each are doing their little function in this company and i was where my entrepreneurs is at like where are the people who like to like you know make shit happen and so there was a company that had gotten acquired a few years earlier and three years earlier and they got bought for like don't know i wanna say like a hundred million dollars and the founder was one of the founders are still working there and so i we go out to lunch and i was like can we he's like yeah let's go to the cafeteria was like no i need to leave this building i'm having like big company folk claustrophobic i need to get out of this building so we go to a lunch and i say why are you still here and he's like oh what you mean like it's going great we're working on stuff i'm like yeah but like you know is this what you wanna do like you're here you're three years in and i'm looking in the mirror thinking you know do i wanna be here in three years there's no way i wanna be here three four years you're going onto year four and you're drinking this company ko aid what what happened to you what what why are you still here and he was like you know slightly offended but he was like no it's great i'm having fun i'm learning a bunch i go let me ask you the question differently it sounds it sounds like what you're saying is you don't wanna be doing anything else right he goes yeah and i go so let's say that i had put a hundred million dollars in your bank count tomorrow would you show up to work and he's like well no like i'd be i'm like okay so you're doing it for the money let's is okay and now we've established that because if i all i did was i changed the money part of the equation and now your answer is very different he's like well i would buy a ranch and i would you know i have four kids that we'd be outside all day but then on the side i'd be building this type of project i was okay so that's what you really wanna do i'm not saying you have to go do that but it let's at least be honest i didn't like the part where you were telling me this is exactly what i wanna be doing with my life and i can say today there's things there's a part of my life like this podcast part of my life that is exactly what i would be doing regardless of what the number is in the bank account and there's a part of my life where like we spin up companies but like we spend up companies like for example we just spun a a company that is i would say it is opportunistic it's not the most fun sexy company of in the world i don't wanna operate it forever i'm like oh this business will work it'll be successful it'll have a great exit it'll provide a great return it'll you know it'll put you know millions of dollars in people's bank accounts in the next three to five years and that is good but if i was totally post economic there's no way i would spend an ounce of my energy doing that company like just the reality of the situation so i'm like you know partially following that that philosophy but not all the way yet and i'm kind of honest with at least i'm honest with myself of like yes and no but the my answer the question if i was totally post economic you know i have more money than ever be able to spend the thing that i would do is i would teach and i would either just teach in the way that i do today like podcast write a book you know just basically be curious to learn something and then explain what i learned to people who don't have the twelve hours to go down the bio electricity rabbit hole you know you know but that's what i would do or i would extend that if i wanted to be a little more ambitious and i would actually create a campus in a school for people like me and be like cool let me create the ideal school that i wish i had when i was younger and do that i just don't know how much i don't know how much that would be fun like the kind of reward versus extra effort that that takes versus creating content online and doing the same thing but not having any of the like students and physical campus and stuff that i need to deal with you know we should talk about that some because i've thought of that that as well i wish there was a better school for me and for people like us who are you know we're creative entrepreneurial quirky and the traditional school system does not like satisfy needs and what's cool about it is you know if let's say we came up with a concept for how we would do this like i would just put my whole team behind it and then we'll find a way to find the money and then i will just manifest like these things don't have to wait until you have a billion dollars in cash is the point and but i asked you the question because i i found that bio was on my list like oh i would do more bio stuff i just fund it and like what but i know people who could fund it i could just call them and have un fund it and i i don't need to fully fund it and i'll manifest and i think i think a lot of us have so many of these things for that one create in the world and it's dangerous to eat because life priorities change and i think that i see this with many of my friends you go on to get married to have kids they get comfortable they're building their ridiculous house and then life goes by and they never go through this lesson it always sees a dream or an aspiration and i i just couldn't allow that to happen to myself and i'm so glad that you're you know doing most of the things on your list that's a a great phrase it's dangerous to wait because i think most people feel like it it'd be risky to go do it and i think they vastly underestimate the risk of allowing yourself to just wait on the things you really wanna do in life because actually what happens is you accrue this like it's not like by waiting you get closer to the goal by waiting you actually get further away from the goal because you add all this space that gets filled up with other activities other responsibilities thoughts you you train yourself to not take action on the shit you actually want and to like go down this like a long winding path i remember when i was back to when i working at twitch there's a guy dan who's now the ceo at the time he came in it's like i don't know chief proctor officer or something he was he became my boss we go into this like one on one and he's like so like what are your like career you know what's your like goals for yourself here you know at the company and i was like well i have two options here i mean they're gonna lie to this guy and say oh i can't wait to get promoted from l seven to l eight to l ten like you know like this like the ladder literally it's a ladder and you that's your goal clive angles and i was like can we look gonna lie about this to him because he's you know he's my manager i guess that's what i'm supposed to say or i'll tell the truth and so i told him them the truth and i was like yeah i can't wait to go build another thing or just go on my own and like i don't see myself being here and long term and he was like okay well that but he didn't he didn't thought like that's gonna put him in an awkward position but he was like you know he's experienced guy he totally you know rolled with it he's like okay great now that i know that and i was like you know i don't want you to totally write me off because i said that like i do think i'll be here to earn out this part of the deal i think i can do good work while i'm here like you know i think you'll you you'll get value from somebody with my talents being here so i hope you don't just like you know say oh this guy's not here for long like write me off but that's the truth and he was like done i appreciate that now let's talk about the thing you really wanna do what is it that you really wanna do and i was like oh i wanna do this as this but you know before i do that i need to kinda like you know i'm trying to get you know save you know enough capital because i'm gonna that's gonna require a lot of capital and i'm gonna learn some things i'm gonna build my network and and he's like yeah i'm not really a fan of the like i wanna do x so i'm gonna go do a b and c before i do x he's like you're better off usually just go ahead and trying to do x and i was like alright you're right that's true i don't need like i you don't even need to say anymore you're right i was bullshit myself a little bit thank you for saying that that's actually a really valuable piece of wisdom and it reminded me of there's this tony robbins ted talk have you ever seen the the one time tony robbins with ted yeah he's like on stage and he's like what stops you i've been spend my whole life he's studying like what stops people from having what they want in life and he's like you know what do you think it is what holds you back and people are like oh like you know for whatever it is you you want a better relationship you want a better career you want more money you want better health whatever whatever it is at people are like oh i don't i don't have the time and other like i don't have the the knowledge of the skills i don't and the people the crowd are saying it and a gore is there and this was like right after a gore had lost the presidential race to bush i think there was like a runoff like they had to recount the votes in florida or something and like they it went to the supreme court and the supreme court ruled that whatever bush won and so he hears this voice that says i didn't have enough supreme court justices and he's like what the hell what do you mean like who's oh gore here and tony robbins gives this like one minute thing that like actually kinda like bitch slapped all their answers he's like you know everything you guys just said is a resource you lacked money time capital supreme court justices that's a a thing you like for justice yeah that's hilarious he's like the only thing you actually need is resourceful miss he's like that is the master skill the ability to go get the resources you need when you need them for the thing you're trying to manifest and he's like if isn't not true that if you are motivated enough charismatic enough playful enough convincing enough you know like determined enough and and charming enough can you not get everything that you want like is it like is it really anything that is outside of you if you really put your all into acquiring that resource could you not have gotten the time the money that that network all of those things like a if you were not more passionate when you're on that stage in that debate would it ever ever even come down to that supreme court justices no right like you would have just won in a landslide if you had acquired the things that you actually needed to get there and that's kind of what you're saying of your little manifestation studio type of process that i love that because it's like you are completely striking out from the thought process of an entrepreneur the like do i have what it takes either personally or financially or you know knowledge and skill wise or like well if i wanna start a bio company i'll go recruit the best bio people and then i'll go raise the funding exactly exactly they say like you don't have enough time or money those are always like excuses but create the time by hiring other people to do the work who are better experts at whatever that thing is and you manufacture the money by raising the money and in my case i've got a multi percent investor relations team they have connections to tons of billionaires and family offices and we're trying to like place these deals with our family office connections and that's gonna be you know within the next year that's gonna be a four person team and if capability could build i have so instead of being a hold show let's treat manifestation shows that's that's what i'm talking about they're not always sudden right i i mean you coined it it's the manifestation code and because now if it could be a profitable endeavor great sometimes it won't be and but the point is all us have that thing we wanna clean our our life and we wanna have the ability to do that in a way that's painless fun and exciting for us as the ib leader what about like you know crazy science dreams you have you said you have ideas or you're talking to scientists all the time what are some things that are you know in the future that you're excited about that is not just a pipe dream like there might actually be a pathway to do it like you know i don't know if the the growth test tube baby in a vat type of thing like i don't know if that's like just a dream or there's actually people working on the that that might be scientifically prop possible or practical can you tell me about some parts of the future that i should be excited about or my kids might get to experience i actually think that is very viable the test two babies i know of i've talked to several scientists who are doing the portion to like for example let's say he wanted to be the mother of a child not the father and we could teach your genetic material and treat an egg out of that i think that we're gonna see that within the next five years and then the converting you know having a artificial embryo generated avatar style that's a little harder to do i i met scientists who been able to get to maybe six weeks before the whole thing falls apart and that will get better and better over time but the implications there are huge like for women imagine not having to deal with this and not having to do egg extraction if you're you know if you're having trouble conceded and then what's also realistic i think is extending our lives by thirty percent i think we need to be prepared to live till a hundred twenty or a longer and right now the upper limit head is though i'll probably die when i'm nine we're not thinking about the exponential rate of change here and i am talking to a live longevity scientist i'm seeing the data it's compelling i think we're gonna live longer we need a plan for that future what's the short version of how we get that extra thirty percent is it drugs is it diet lifestyle changes is it reversing aging is it you know getting blood from young you know baby seals what what are we gonna do to to make that it's probably gonna be a combination of multiple factors and you all these projects fall under what you call bold science could you define bold science what does that mean yeah there just so many companies working on very incremental you know companies where it might extend your life lifespan by three months or six months that's not a great outcome like you're gonna be going to the hospital and taking hem drugs for another six months before your dead what do you do that's like i'd rather go go to hospice than prolong my suffering but if you could said patching the problem like putting a band aid on a gunshot wound is the analogy what if you could get to the root cause and reverse cancer for example so right now everything we do with cancer is about trying to kill the cancer cells through chemo radiation surgery car t therapies are super hot and trendy but that just basically involves using your immune system to target and kill your own cancer cells but what if killing cancer is the wrong approach and actually cancer happens because your cells are trying to protect themselves in some way and if you could train them and coach yourselves so killing them what's readability thumb get them that integrate back in with their surroundings then he could fix cancer and so we're working on a company around that that's what i mean by bold science that's that's that's right so it's basically non non incremental a big leap in function or leap in quality of life so like you know oh step complete step change and usually that's gonna come from taking a different approach than like you know or taking a different point of view on the problem looking at it through a different lens and you've you what you do is you partner with scientists to make that happen one of things you said that i liked when we were talking before was you're like i get on the plane i get the plane every time yeah and i don't know exactly what you mean by that but talk about that because i think that's just a entrepreneurial as part of the manifest manifestations studios is you gotta just get on the plane sometimes what what do you mean by that i have a real example i have there's the successful entrepreneur who i'm sure you've heard of even interviewed him he lives in vegas i live in la and i just said hey tell me a time and place on sunday in one day and i will fly to be vegas i will meet you i i'll literally take my plane and fly there just for the meeting and then fly home afterwards and then tuesday stay same thing i have patrick carlson from spray asked me to hang out with him and have dinner and like alright cool i'll just get on my jet and go see him and then fly back and be back in my bed after dinner you know and does does that only work if you have a jet no buy southwest ticket i mean just get creative at it i do it so often though that it is really nice to have my own airplane but like i think that it doesn't matter like if i have to fly the london and see someone i will i'm gladly you you book a ticket and do that and i think that it really you know i had a billionaire do this for me where he literally flew in from south america and he went straight from the airport to dinner with me and that was the first time i had a one on one meeting with this person and i really made an impression me like wow this guy went out of his way he was planning you to go to some other city instead he came in at la to meet me just for dinner and and she's more important than i am by by a million miles he's so much more important than i am that leave you wanted be friends with this person and you know i have another billionaire who i hit it off with we hung out for drinks we were part of a bigger group and we had two hours where we've just talked about the meaning of life all of his regrets all the things he'd do different he's like this seventy something year old dude and he's like everyone wants me for my money but no one just asks me these questions that you're asking you about life advice and like you know what we should continue this where do live all this he says i live in the bahamas i'm like great i'm visiting you and we booked the time i'm seeing him for dinner in three weeks and i wanna literally go there just to see him and you're so happy about it and i wanna get four hours of downloading this man's wisdom and it's it's super cool i think it's bass underrated well my uncle calls at meeting belly to belly he's like you gotta be belly to belly in business and he's in the real gave us a totally different game but i loved it i was like not face to face we're going belly to belly and i just think that that was like created such a good visual in my head if you were gonna score it let's say if i gave you one point of like trust productivity relationship building for a zoom call versus meeting belly to belly if one is if a one is the is the call how much is the in person well i mean i would think that the other way i mean it's it's it's just they're totally opposite to the spectrum like a belly belly like flying out to see them is the ultimate ten out of ten weight engage with someone there is no better way then to say i'm flying five hours out of my way to see you and spend you know dinner with you and a call is definitely a one and a student call is maybe a two it's like that's how why the delta is right and oh the thing wanna mention is that you didn't i think a lot of people think oh but jess like year you've already like we did a bit so of course people wanna hang out with you well i was getting meetings like this when i was sixteen and i knew nothing i cold emailed the reddit guys i called emailed justin and in it from twitch i guess it was justin dot tv back then and i said hey on this idiot sixteen year old i think you just put it on the table like i'm an idiot and i think you are brilliant and i'm willing to fly to you and i just wanna be a a fly on your shoulder and see you do your work and just like you know just follow you around for a day and so if you pull up the justin dot tv archives you will see me driving him around san francisco and going to a poker game with him and like all this random stuff just because i was wanting do that mark ben on reply to me also again i'm an idiot he eight sixteen years that's amazing this is when you're a teenager you also told me because i asked you because i think one of the valuable things in life is to study like to become a good evaluator of people like if let's say you're an nba general manager you need to be able to spot talent i think any business person or investor needs to be able to spot talent and ideally spot the difference between good and great great and the best in the world and when i met you i really felt like oh this might be somebody who's one of those like elite best in the world at what they do and they're gonna just do special things that are beyond even what really great smart you know intelligent people are gonna do just because they seem to be operating differently but i need to understand them a little more so i asked you a question was gonna know you and i was i was like if i met you when you were younger like thirteen years old what would i've seen and what would there be have been any signals for for this and i i said you know and i will say on my side i was a totally uni unemployed thirteen year old you know you know there was no signals that i was gonna do anything out of the ordinary you know forget like being created at something just like out of the ordinary beyond average and so i wasn't that way but i've met a lot of people who were you know they're were like teenagers that were flipping things like you know on ebay or they were building a product of some kind or you know whatever you have an amazing kind of backstory can you tell it what were you doing what was like your first you know interesting little business you were doing when you were you're were a teenager when i was thirteen i started a dedicated server and c location business because that's what i thought you did in high school that's just i don't know why but i thought it was kinda normal and i grew that set out a few hundred grand in revenue you would know somebody else doing it why would you think that's normal i don't know i like the internet forums you know there are lots of people who do this so i thought okay this like a commodity business but i could probably figure out how to do it and make a few bucks and off set my gaming server expenses that was the bowl i just wanted to make like ten thousand dollars a year to offset my own costs and buy some clothes and i have to like go work at the shopping mall or like great leaves or shuttle you're like i'm playing video games i wanna scratch my own edge to be able to play my video games and and like you know pay pay off that buy some clothes were you cool in school were you like no more popular kid or what who who are you total geek loser i so lame i so i had no friends i went to the computer club at my face which is all the nerds who also had no other friends so you have to be friends with each other they were making fun of me and they were bullying me i was literally on the bottom of the bottom put pull like that's how i knew it was really bad i'm like okay had to get out of here as soon as possible so i ended up dropping out of high school halfway through my sophomore more year but got into this really cool college program called simon's rock called you know simon's rock and going to college really it really seemed me because i was born in high school i wasn't doing well i was i was getting terrible grades because i was uni interested and because i had no friends and i felt like i couldn't relate to anyone all other girls and guys just like we're interested in things that i had no interested so when you said hey i would love to create this school for people like us i just thought holy cow i wanna create that school too we can week this happen let's do it let's it let's set aside some time another day or let's just go meet up for dinner i'll come wherever you want any day you want i will i will fly to you and we will put together you know like you can plan for what this would look like and how we would manifest this without having a weed till we're you know sitting out a billion in cash yeah okay done love it belly dub belly booked you that tell me about this server business did you make the ten grand off that i was making like hundreds of thousands of dollars a year off a bit i so you weren't wanting why my teacher i remember in biology class it's ed and i can't pay attention and i'm like doing like the biology teacher clearly isn't like me because she knows that on high potential but i wasn't doing well because i was up till three in the morning answering customer service and sales emails so of course i only had like five hours of sleep and when you're thirteen and you're offering on five hours of sleep you're not gonna do well and but to make myself feel better i thought well at least making more money than my biology t shirt well i'm to a moral victory so when you were meeting these people because you're like i'm a i'm a dumb sixteen year old college kid your college because you're sixteen because you dropped out of high school yeah and like just went to college you met justin con you met mark ben off you met you know these different yc founders did you do you learn did you learn anything day they stick with you was there a story that like you remember like would you get out of those meetings yeah what i got out of it was that holy cow there are other people like me who are a little crazy who are willing to approach life and entrepreneurship in an unconventional way and who are willing to do you know the hard thing so when i saw justin and i saw steve hoffman reddit i i realized wow like i don't need a wait till i'm older to start doing this today and i also don't need to have money i don't have to have like a job to demonstrate success so it's more of the mindset i would say it's always mindset psychology more than tactics when you're meeting these people that i focus on yeah yeah and you you also told me you met these other people like when i was like oh what's i forgot i was like i think i was asked you like what you do with your money and you were like yeah i you said one thing you were like you're like you know taxes people or i think i was asking you something about taxes i you were like people don't spend enough time on taxes so can you tell me we'll put this in the bucket of billionaire secrets you you said you've met a bunch of successful super rich people and the way they think is a little bit different than the way else thinks and i'm interested in that gap what's different about the way that most successful the rich people that you know think what is it that they're thinking about differently one of the things was taxes but you had a few more can you tell me the taxes point and anything else you kinda remember on that yeah top tax optimizations is are really big deal because if you think about it if you're spending if if half your money is going to uncle sam it's really going to impact your compounding like do you know compound interest calculator and you'll see the delta is very wide if you're starting at each say thirty and these billionaires employ the best tax strategist in the world so eventually i said hey could you introduce me to your tax person and that person of course works with like thirty other billionaires and see them you know collectively a hundred billion dollars in taxes and then i i've gotten enough of these tax professional intros right now i have a whole collection of them i call and i combine advice from multiple tax professionals and merge it altogether and i think that's the next level most people just pick one person and they say oh i've been working with betty is my tax accountant for the past ten years well betty doesn't work with billionaires it's time for a new tax accountant i literally had this con conversation with someone over lunch last week and he texted me right before we on this call say oh my god like this is going to make me millions of dollars more the next few years likes well the this is so true i feel when i like i have like a lawyer and a tax person and if i feel like i if i talk to another tax person or a lawyer i like kinda cheating on them it's like that's so silly that's so dumb of a way to think about it like first of all it's your job to get the best opinion possible it is it's the best answer the best answer is not gonna come necessarily from the one person you know who you picked one time five years ago without vetting anybody else they may also not specialize in other stuff you're doing oh now you're doing real estate deals they don't know anything about real estate deals or you're doing you have an exit an m and a they don't know anything about m and a so you know you should be talking to people who really understand that stuff a t that multiple opinions is better than one specialties matter also would you said that it reminded me i was like oh yeah the person who i have doing tax strategy stuff they stopped giving me strategy after year one like we you know like the bulk if i had a pie chart of ninety percent of the like strategy combos combos we had were at the very beginning and then like no i'm just like the client that they you know stamp the the thing on like every you're right like that happens naturally same thing with legal legal stuff and so you kinda need to keep dating order to have like fresh ideas or advice coming in from that perspective thanks you also said like there's a certain amount of time you think people should spend on or like y maybe not should but like the math tells you you should be spending a certain amount of time on taxes and actually the what people actually do is maybe less than one percent of their time yeah exactly less than one percent way less than even point one percent because if taxes impact half your income potentially if you invest just even five or ten percent of your time this year to finding five amazing tax strategist get all their advice and figure out how to apply it ten percent of your time as the upper bound here and you're making like way more money as a result it pays for itself like a hundred people it's the highest irr investment you can make and so way better than like investing in the stock market with the money you're paying these tax that's so true because your tax is always your biggest expense and if you're a business person you have your you know your business tax then you have your personal tax you have like investment tax capital gains you have all kinds of taxes every single year you know the same dollar gets taxed a bunch of times so you're right basically it's the biggest it's the biggest biggest expense even ten percent sounds absurd i'm like oh that's thirty six days out of the year that's overkill you only need that much time i mean even five days in the year to do this gets you little right on the math like you would be just spending thirty six days out of year you would be justified spending ten percent of your time and intellectual mind share on on your biggest expense that's gonna compound every year for the rest of your life like of course that would make sense so that is a kind of like aha moment for me right what about like coaching or you know some sort of like what is your like basically if the studio the manifestation kind of like vehicle here is an extension of you and your brain and your dreams and your desires and then like getting the brain to be like functioning well seems important do you do anything whether it's therapy nutrition morning routine like do anything like that to like make sure you're the psychology the you know the the the little voice in your head is saying the right stuff yeah for sure i have i have two different coaches i talk with each month and i think of it is like going to the gym or taking a shower even if i think i'm happy or in a good mindset i need to still go see them to make sure that my head is on properly and yeah cons me of ton of money by it pays for herself right away i also have my ceo group i visit once a month it's kinda like alcohol and not alcoholic anonymous for ceos i'm in y young president's organization but there's also entrepreneur organization in and this stage list goes on and on and there yeah you think oh i don't have time for it but i actually think you don't have time not to do that that's a good way of putting it also helps us we don't think about that what if you could optimize through better nutrition and topics and through ivs your not only your longevity but your mental acuity so i work with five concierge doctors to come up with my own custom plan and i'm actually gonna put something together that i could share with all my friends so anyone i love can get on the same program and includes the supplements custom compounding my own supplements set you know just two pills so it's a little easier and then doing the ex once a quarter which i'm i'm a huge fan of and what what what is that what is that word you just said what it what are you doing ex assume ivs and what is that yeah i mean saw it's still the science on it still little you know up in the air so i just wanna be you know good on the disclosure there so it's not necessarily the fountain beef but there's the belief that you know if you're if you're doing if you're bringing in stem cells you know it's through an iv it will help you lower your biological age can you more energy and help you with with your auto autonomy so basically your body's ability to get rid of old and dying cells and if you do that then the thought is you're gonna have more energy more energy means or brain power more brain power means more ability to to manifest and create create things in the world but and so this is not another area where let's say you were able to improve your mental function and your energy by twenty five percent by the way if you do all these things you could probably do like better than twenty five percent is that worth fifteen thousand dollars a year which is roughly how much i spend on this maybe guys spend twenty or twenty five grand on it it's not a lot of money you don't need to pull of brian johnson where you're spending a million dollars a year to get eighty percent of the results this is the eighty twenty rule of brian johnson yeah that's what i need good i i i i'm gonna hit you up for start some recommendations referrals and and then yeah i i'll i'll eventually who less all this feedback to make it so that we could share it publicly and for free so you guys don't necessarily need to pay for your own concierge consider stock to do this for you i think it's ridiculous that like all the work i'm doing here i'm spending this money on it like this should be like a public service that's offered yeah because it's not so personalized to you basically your no it's not that personalized ninety percent of what i'm doing like anyone else should just be able to do on their own it's just not this whole longevity optimization arena is so new and in order for other folks to monetize on it has to feel bespoke unique to you when so get get give me the quick rundown so use spend this money you have this this program that you're doing you said you do this ex ex home ivs okay great what are like if you were gonna go from like most impactful to like you know whatever fringe you know stuff what's the most the most impactful stuff you're doing again i'll be super honest it's hard to know where the impact is like on just what you what you kinda believe in and what you would recommend to your cousin or your your your friend who you you know who you're like look we all we get all the disclaimers you're not a doctor there's not there you're there's not you know bullet bulletproof science cool okay amongst friends do you kinda tell what your opinion is yeah i'm a friend of e one i'm sure people have talked about that on your pod before i'm a fan of adding in other there's this whole list of supplements need topics that i can't even recite the name of for you but i could publish a list for you if you'd like and then having them all again put together in you know a few compact pills that you could take and then i have a friend and who does that you you like go to a compounding pharmacy and you're like hey do can you make these pills for me pretty cool we'll have like thirty two pills delivered like how does that work yeah i have a friend who actually has his own so i get it at cost but my plan is to work with him to create it to that he can make some profit and then my friends will have basically what i take and not have it be marked up too much like all these other come back internet companies are trying to do shout out to the sc bags out there keep keep doing your thing that's it in a next i that's the vibe he's on a huge sat and then there's also yeah i mean there are a bunch of peptides as well as you wanna do the more advanced thing and on the peptides you know some of them are injectable so you know that i would consult a doctor on but the supplements you you could probably used to right and i win benchmark i would take the true diagnostics biological you know each test just to see how you're doing before middle and after and yeah so that's another so taxes health coaching and mindset one of the dollar categories for you know billionaire secrets be haven't uncovered i think those was the big ones that i mean other one is what you talked about which is being non operational yep create a vehicle that's gonna create all your other vehicles and and be able to recruit talent that's gonna be able to put the pieces together the way i look at it is like every project needs kinda like a vision it needs capital it needs an operator it needs what you know what are what does it need okay i'm gonna be able to create those packages and so that's i think that's what a lot of them do is they they get out of i'm gonna go every day and work on this one business and toil away like turning the crank myself and you know that's the the the higher leverage way that they they operate is is like that yeah exactly yeah i think that's great and i think also billionaires have a different mindset when it comes to buying expensive things so you think oh they have so much money that why would they lease that on the boat or the plane or the exotic cars and the truth is on a lot of that it's taxes so i have a friend who's buying a thirty million dollar yacht right now he found a way for it to give him a thirty million dollar write off he's gonna chartered it out for a bit but like he saves more money on taxes than all he's spending on the yacht and his bank finance eighty percent of the yacht he's only putting a twenty percent down so it's net net cash flow positive for him to buy the yacht ironically and the operational costs are offset largely by the charter and you don't think that but it pays for all his cost and people do this with airplanes too i did this with my airplane i mean i figure right off from buying an airplane then when i put down in cash to buy the airplane so can you give the quick math on it doesn't be your share sure airplane but just like just the general mass of people know like how does the buy a plane work from a tax perspective yeah well it the rules are changing but i i closed online about a year ago and let's say you buy a plane it's five million bucks and your bank's willing finance posted it so you put a million dollars down but you got a five million dollar write off on the plane and it's a year one right off that that was a accelerated bonus depreciation year one but now the problem is this year it's only eighty percent you could deduct front next year at sixty percent and then forty and then twenty yes it's getting worse worse but but the point is you do get a tax benefit for buying these assets they are financed and then also if it enables you to do war what you want then there's that like inca benefit that you receive right see with exotic cars a lot of people i know who have excited cars their side cars are worth more than what they pee for them so they buy the car they drive it for a year and then they sell the car at the same cost or a higher cost than what they paid for it because other people can't they wanna have access to that car but they don't have a relationship with the manufacturer and they weren't willing to wait four years on the waiting list to get that car yeah i was surprised to learn that that the there's just a whole class of really expensive cars that you basically get to drive for free it's like putting a deposit down so you go by this car i don't even know if this would classify but like our our friend had a mc and he's like yeah it's great i driven it you know for a few years and i'm gonna sell it for exactly what i bought it for it doesn't depreciate or it's up you know i'll make ten twenty grand on this thing for the privilege of driving this around and there's a whole bunch of these like rich get richer style setups like you know where if you if once you start to pull you it it's like a snowball it's like you use the money to buy something that's gonna make you more efficient and have more fun or you know do better business and then that also is gonna save you on a taxes today and then and also gonna hold value because it's a rare asset so you're gonna you know if you ever sell it you didn't lose anything just for holding this so you know you get all these gains and then they start to accumulate once you start to get there and i think that's a real advantage and you know some people who i think are on the other side of that hate that and they feel like that's so unfair and unjust you know i don't really give a moral opinion either way it's just that's is what it is and you know you could choose to either benefit from that you could choose to ignore it or you could choose to be upset about it you have many choices on how you're gonna react to you know a bunch of these things that that come with you know the the snowball of of of you know wealth yeah i think i think it's easy to heat on it but what's cool is that people could learn about mindset and how to get there and that's what you're doing with your pod like you're very specific about like how to do these things i've noticed and this was not available to people five years ago so yeah well well it's funny because like money is this taboo thing it's like we're all supposed to not share anything we know about money how much we make what we how we invest what the returns are what taxes what do with your taxes like everybody plays you know close guarded on that and that's a real shame because it means it's very hard to learn until that gets cracked open and somebody starts sharing and then more people start sharing then you start to learn faster and there's this great conor mcgregor quote where he talks about like conor mcgregor went from plumber to highest paid athlete in the world in a span of five years and along the way he was higher paid than any u guy i ever was faster than anybody was and there was a lot of guys who had been paying their dues for fifteen years fighting for you know going out there and like fighting in a cage match for twenty thousand dollars and then they have to pay for their flights or hotels that medical bills and they are left with two grand at the end of it and they were very bitter and someone asked him in an interview they go connor you know do you ever think about kinda toni it down because you there's so many people that are you know get upset when you talk about you call your shots you say how much you're making and you wear the nice watch you wear the nice clothes and he goes no that says something about them not me he goes some people see this and they take inspiration and that's who i was i saw people doing things and i took inspiration and other people see things and they get bitterness and they will end up bitter it is not my job to figure out you know they get to decide if they're gonna go on on the bitterness path or the inspiration path you know the right people will get inspired and that actually kind freed me up in this podcast to do things that i think you know ask questions or talk about things that i think are you're supposed to downplay everything you're supposed to not talk about you know certain stuff but fuck that you know that doesn't seem like like you know i yeah i when i'm was growing up i couldn't wait to get a little more information or in inspiration or hear you know that somebody oh this guy has a private chef and that'd be awesome i don't feel bad that i don't have one now i now have a new thing that i've decided that would be really awesome fun to work for and in a great like i a way to prove quality of life that i had never even thought about and thank you for putting it on my radar thank you for putting it in my in my you know in front of me that i now wanted to go go do that i love that yeah like i've think it is difficult to struggle with the feeling of jealousy and aspiration and another trick that i'm not sure if this came from twenty robbins for someone else but if you're surrounded by people who are more successful than you instead of them weed could interpret is hey this is a great sign because this means more success and more happiness is coming my way now that i'm able to surround myself in acne these people into my life how awesome and i remember having to deal with that a lot especially when i was a up and coming entrepreneur and i knew absolutely nothing and i have know drew from dropbox and sam alt coming to pizza me and these like cs students right like we didn't know anything and and and the gap felt very wide but i just having them there to spend fine with us to say hey we're open to like just email us if you have any questions about what it's like to be a founder we're gonna be there for you just feeling like all them were approachable and accessible i think made it easier for me to focus on education instead of the enemy right that's a that's a great way of putting it can i ask you one thing before yoga because i know it i took too much your time sure sam alt is now like this extremely interesting public character very few people actually know him sounds like you've had interactions with him in the past can you give me your impressions or any story you remember of sam alt because i remember reading paul essays like ten years ago where he's like of the five most impressive people i've met it's like bill gates or whatever the larry sergey ed sam alt man you know and he's like that's when he was doing looped and nobody you know there was no there was no tracker could he he sort of was was like it was just very apparent in meeting him at that time that this guy's gonna go on to do great things did you get that sense or i don't know how much interaction you had with him yeah i i mean this was probably thirteen years ago now but i i had a one on one with poly and i asked him to share like who would you think the most you know successful people you'd ever met like who will who will that end being thirty years from now if you have another one at one like this and sam was on the list i'm not gonna share who others were on that list but they're all also doing extremely well and what a question by you by the way fantastic question yeah and i asked paul what are the things in common with these people what what did by the way he put me on the list on the worst one by far so i'm at embarrassed and i felt like i disappointed him but we'll see that for another day and i asked them for like what are personality traits you find on these people like how you know what do you see and for him it it was less about the intelligence actually it was not about it it goes back to this comment theme you've had throughout the past hour and a half year on like grit and being willing to be unconventional all and to try different approaches and to you know to collect ideas from multiple spaces and merge them together to come up with something even better than what a domain expert in anyone field would be able to come up with on their own and just like how they show up and what they're willing to do to meet the right people was a big part of what means so that's that also reinforced my wanting to how this policy of just get on the plane because that's a trait that successful people perceive will lead to you know you being destined for greatness so to speak only well i don't think i'm destined for greatness but what if i could fact you're making other people i'm destined for greatness than we actually maybe treat that reality somehow yeah eventually you know it walks like a duck it talks like a duck hey it became a duck by the end of it actually so so those traits you said just now sorry to recap was okay grit or resourceful know like you know the the the willingness to make things happen you said going into being being able to collect ideas from multiple spaces and and s it so that you actually might create something more than any domain than the than the individual domain expert had been able to reach you get to a new a new ceiling from that that was like the second thing you said third was wanting to meet the right people ask the questions and being willing to go to certain lengths to to kinda meet them right that was that was the third one i miss one that you said yeah just to build on that third one is that how could you meet yourself interesting enough at a dinner party so that they would want invite back to spend more time with them how be you broaden your field of knowledge to be able to be an advisor you know the a someone on that you know a king or president would want hop upon for feedback and you know you program saas or this was years ago before he left for the uk he has a huge library of books and he's read most of these books and and he's just fascinated by so many topics and that also left an impression on me like okay like we should just learn about random things that have nothing to do with their day to day business because they'll help us with category number three on that list right right yeah that's such a good call i went to a farming conference last year like like two years ago i like from i it was the best conference i had been to in like five years because i only been go to tech conferences and you know i'm not learning anything at these tech conferences know like i'm adding the same incremental knowledge and it's the same thoughts and philosophies and same types of people in that bubble and there's nothing wrong with that but like there's definitely like you want that twenty percent like total change up that is completely at a left field that's like wow these guys talk about different things think about different things a different perspective living in that was in kansas city right like i was like you know you go to a different place and you have a totally different perspective and i literally started a company while i was there because i was like piecing together like two ideas one from the tech world and one from this like farmer that we had met and like it you know that was you know when we created the milk road and we even the name milk road was like because we're at a freaking farming conference and there's like a dairy farmer next to us you know like it all kinda played in to to to having that if you know we hadn't stirred the pot in that exact way know maybe you would have come up with a different answer yeah that's super cool that you did that and i i'm curious to download from you what is also on your list of like the next areas you would wanna learn about and i think it's actually a good exercise for me too to think about this for me it's been bio lately but i i would like to have brought in it even more so give an example of one of the bio companies that you founded what you know they'll give us the high level of like the problem the solution you guys are trying to do and like you know the the rough stage where it's at yeah the high level is i set up a holding company for biotech venture creation centered around the scientist named of mike levin if you search mike levin he has a ted talk he has a three and a half hour interview with le freed that i highly recommend he watch and you will get sucked in because he scientist who studied he got yeah phd genetics at harvard and then now he's dev avoided his entire career to basically proving the fact that genetics are actually not that relevant in the whole scheme of things and that it's this other thing by electricity that dictates how long we live whether or not we get cancer how our limbs and body feet forms it's actually not as much genetics as you think in genetics is like the hardware level of biology whereas he says bio electricity is like the software so you you told me this you you were like we have one company's astonishing labs it's about bio electricity i was like what's i've never even heard this word and you said it in a in a really interesting way you go you you'll people think that it's like genetics is kind of like what your genes say or your dna says is kinda like what ends up manifesting and you're like turns out it's not that at all which already i was like oh that's a kinda narrative violation what is what do you mean that's all i've ever heard so what is the answer and you were like yeah there's this idea of bio electricity and i went and i watched his ted talk and he talks about like you know they're able to like you know grow a arm on something's on an animal back they're able like the grow third eye right they're able to do all these like show all these amazing like phenotype outputs without any genetic modification and so can you just like explain that a little bit more about like you know the kind of the layman's version of it yeah well i i'm honest i don't even fully understand the science of it but that's everything you said is correct like could if you manipulate the electricity on an animal you can treat weird outputs like this so when they saw that a tad was growing an eyeball the bio electric signature of the cells in that area changed and so the question was is oh what if he created that s signature by on another part of the bonnie what will happen will it grow an eyeball not only does it grow an eyeball there but it grows connection to the spinal cord and so you don't have to micro manage biology if you try to change that through modifying the genome how would you do that there'd be no way to do that is the answer and so if you just think about it logically genetics are therefore for not that at all be all so anyway i heard of this at blew my mind i said this this is brilliant like is he does he have a commercialization partner what's the status of it and answer is it's still in the lab and there is no commercial this yet and paul allen was funding the whole lab and then paul allen tragically passed away and then the funding dried up so he needed money he needed people to help him make it a real biotech about company so i come in say i don't know nothing about biotech i know a lot of rich people who would love to fund crazy stuff like this and wait when you say i came in that means like i called emailed him i i called him i i met him what what did you actually do i met him through a friend so i had a friend who was telling me that might over lunch and i thought this is brilliant this is amazing could we fly out and meet like like next week like i'll literally clear my calendar and i'll spend a few and i will get to know him and figure out what we could do with this and so i met mike spent some time with them and realized that this is really compelling and we could do something cool out of it so so i hired this guy named tom tom had taken a drug called ul from lab all the way through fda approval whole approval for sixteen million dollars which is absolutely crazy and the jug world like normally it takes hundreds of millions of dollars to get something approved by fda but his drug actually worked it was putting patients in full remission the first eight out of nine patients normally they would be dead within months with this drug they were they were going to remission so i brought him in to go do to due diligence on all my le science and figure out a strategy for turning these into real biotech companies and so my contribution was i have eighteen i have twelve people who work with me at my holding company or whatever you wanna call it for we i don't really think of it as a hold toe or a venture studio for me it's just an extension of me where if there's something i wanna manifest in the world i have a team of brilliant people we'll figure out how to help me make that happen that's amazing and so so you do that what is the like you know what's the product or what are you guys actually building we are building several companies under this hold code so the first company we created is called ce and it's essentially a company that will help overcome drug resistance and how do i make this more concrete if you're taking drugs for you're leukemia or you're taking chemo drugs it might be effective and work for a while if you have lots of drugs that are effective in work but then one day they stop working and when they stop working unfortunately there are sometimes no other viable options for the patient which means they're gonna then die but a monthly a month earlier the drugs were working and they were fine right so that's one company there's another company that's developing for gram human bio box and in fact this scott you know there's our goal about this in nature as of today and that company is called ant bots wow so i'll said you weren't info on that if you're curious that is really cool i think cnn is gonna post their interview with mike today about that as well and so is all your all your bio stuff under the the this lab with mike levin or is there are there other bio bets too because like you've talked to me about you know at that dinner we were talking about i don't know like pregnancy or something like that and you said something kind of in passing you're like yeah like in the next i don't know at ten years you know you you know you'll women may not need to birth a baby like you know you'll be able to just essentially grow a baby and i was like what so like appetite talk about bullet would it be if you could see you like a baby euro and like a fish tank and all you have to do is i could swab your math and to swab my mouth put it in the machine and then a bead you will start to grow out of it you know there's just get the genetic material no sperm egg nose firm no egg just raw genetic material and yeah i think that will eventually be in the future i don't think that's gonna be the next ten years probably not even in the next twenty years but i i have random ideas like that this and i think how cool would it be five who's doing that research and and if if i find people who are then i might support their work and fund it if not then i'll have i'll put together my own team and go try it ourselves and it's likely you gonna lose money and fail and not work but like this is fun like not everything has to be for the profit i know your what your whole pod is all about making money and all the whole chose are about how to like compound cash flow and blah blah blah but like what if we should have fun doing this and by having fun and being mission oriented you think bigger you think more grand about what the world to become one day and then you're more likely to end up like elon or whatever like that's kind of the direction i'm going with with my company here which i realize it's not as sexy it's not as compelling as saying you know we're you know making money well you know maybe more i don't know like you know when when facebook was going public mark zuckerberg wrote this letter to like the potential shareholders that we're gonna buy the stock and it was like i think it's told the hacker away it's a really great thing i you know i know people are very skeptical of z but i think a lot of the stuff he does is is pretty awesome including this letter that he wrote and he described the way that they do things and one of the things he said is like you know we don't build products to make money you know you know you we don't we don't be able products to make great money we we make money to build great products like that is the the core of what we're doing think google had set a similar thing when they went public and you know i don't think it's one or the other but there is a first order bit and second order bit meaning like if the first order bit is we are trying to fund bold science that might change everything even though it has a high likelihood of failure even though it might take many years and a lot of money to get there but we think that advancing the research and ultimately trying to commercial the research is the way that to me is the version of like we don't do that to make money we make money so that we can do that so i think in in a way it's it's a lot more attractive and sex to to most people i think if they step back for a minute a lot of the like money first comes from the insecurity right like just the the sort of wanting wanting that success wanting that win under your belt wanting that safety in the bank account you know that's where a lot of that comes i don't think anybody really if they looked at their life would say i'm so glad i devoted it to maximizing you know how much money i made i that's a very unlikely scenario i think a lot of people would actually be more inspired by you know the way you're doing things out which is like what's fun what's interesting what gets me out of bed in the morning that's exciting that will if done well can like you know change change change the world and in the non cliche way because this stuff you're doing actually is more change the world than like then you know the ended arrows of the world or it's like we're gonna change the world one set of books at a time and it's like well maybe maybe you're just doing bookkeeping actually yeah exactly that's how i felt i i literally had his nagging feeling in my soul that i was wasting why he and i'm sure a lot of people feel that way awesome well sounds like we got another couple conversations have thank you for coming on thanks for should people go find you reach out to what where where do you wanna direct people yeah i anita i'm on you know my website's mah dot com and i've got a twitter at jessica at just on instagram and if people wanna reach out you could either desk my email address which is what i've done with mark ben off and everyone else really that's a good filter actually you don't want the inbound that's easy you want the inbound of a at least you're at least able who guess an email address not that hard just like i have like i literally emailed like mark at salesforce marked that ben off and ben off you know like every perm i could come up with and most of them bounced and one of them works so that's awesome thanks for doing this you're awesome and yeah that's great episode yeah great great time hanging out with you thanks for having me i feel like i could rude world i know i could be what i want to put at all in and like a days on on a less travel never looking back