alright today we're talking about an app that is taking off that i think might be the next tiktok it's a chinese app that you've probably never heard of sam got all the numbers behind a cold plunge business that's doing over a hundred million dollars years including their ad numbers which is rare you almost never could to see that and lastly we talk about lessons that we learned from jess a founder who has built a business up to nine hundred million dollars and she shared one or two golden little nuggets that we wanted to talk about yeah enjoy this up i feel like i could rude where to know i could be what i want to from at all in it like a day's off on alright let me give you an update on something so we had you know i take a lot of pride in the fact that we've had some people on here right before there like fame arc really took off we had brian johnson on here you said that he mentioned to like yeah you guys were one of my first people another one andrew hu we talked to andrew human i remember we talked to him and i think he was like in this hallway in stanford or something like doing an interview with us and after the pod or during the pod i told him that like cold punching is interesting to me and after the pod he goes hey i wanna send you a cold punch i it's like that's very kind of you i i would love that and so we introduced me to this guy named brian ryan dewey ryan sent me a cold plunge and the company now it's it's what's the url actually is it plunge i don't even know what is it plunge dot com plunge dot com yeah it's just called plunge he sent me this thing and i started using it and i loved it and i dug it and by the way this also sounds like i can add this is not only ad i have nothing to do with these guys but but ryan i will take a free plunge i said no earlier i checked my you say no when he offered you one i said no i said no the first time that's crazy and i was wrong i'm i'm man enough to admit i was wrong i would like a plunge thank you yeah they're also but here's the deal when he was selling them at the time i think they were like thirty five hundred dollars now i think they're were like fifty five hundred dollars and i didn't know if i liked doing it so i was like yeah i'll take one that because that's a lot of money to spend just for to test something out and so i got an update on these guys i think they only launched in two thousand twenty and in preparation for this pod i went talk him we got a bunch of numbers this year so here listen to the revenue in two thousand twenty so the way it started is ryan and his partner michael they each separately owned brick and mortar british his businesses one of them ryan owned this thing called a float therapy center i know what it's floating tank yeah it's like you go it's like a i i used to call them deprivation i used to do it in saf francisco once like sitting is like tan bed that's filled with salt you basically float and it's completely dark and no noise and you feel funky it's kinda cool his other partner owned like a it's i think it was called the reboot it was like a asana that you go to an la but covid happens so both of those businesses get screwed and so they're like man we gotta figure something out and they noticed that at their place people were asking for cold plunge and they also saw that online i think at the time it was like fifteen grand to get a cold plunge as opposed to what a lot of people do what i used to do in college is you get like a big trash can and you just gotta go to like seven eleven and buy ice and fill your your thing up your your bucket with with water hose or hose water from the hose and it takes forever whatever and they're like alright let's create our own so two thousand twenty they did two hundred and seventy thousand in revenue two thousand twenty one they did eight million two thousand twenty two i think we got it in twenty one or twenty two whenever andrew came on thousand twenty two they did thirty three million in revenue this year two thousand twenty three they're doing around ten million a month and they're gonna surpass a hundred million in revenue off freaking cold plunge it's wild insane and the way they the way that he told me they got started was they basically dm all marcus who's this health guy on instagram who owns on it and they were like hey man we're gonna will come to your house and just set up a cold plunge for free and so they get a u haul and they fill it up with this like little homemade thing that they did they use like a bunch of parts from home depot i'd imagine because i had of an early version it looks like something you could kinda hack together and they brought it to his place and they set it up for him and they were like is there anyone else you think we should talk to and he's like yeah lieberman man talked to this guy and so they get a u haul and they filled it up with five more and they start delivering it to these guys and i guess that's how i got it started with lunch tour they would get plunge they were to fill a four five these go to plunge tour and they would instagram while they were doing it and so people on it ig would see it like like me i would see it on ig and it'd be like damn this must be like some super successful company because they're they're they're only delivering to people that i know like you know influenced basically even though there were no other customers it was only those customers yeah and there's it was only like a few of them it was like they they they threw this thing together and i guess that's when i kinda that's when andrew like i guess they were like andrew you know we have this money for you to give away do you wanna give away to whoever they gave one to me they gave one si they so far they've given away hundreds of these things and they're killing it in never a million years whatever i've thought a cold plunge business would do north of a hundred million in revenue by the way they've given away over a thousand plunge that's insane right that's like the that means influencer marketing was like so important to to them at the beginning a couple other fun facts that say a couple of these that you have on your notes yeah do it they bought plunge dot com off of a new orleans jazz band for two hundred fifty k which just little hilarious that's a that's wild they basically are riding this way so if you look on google trends we'll put this up on the screen on on youtube you could see basically cold plunge for ice bath and just both of them rising over time as like you know the kind of the hub era kicks in here so they're they're right in the back of that but the insane thing is this ad spend you gotta talk about this you talk about it because this is in your this is your wheelhouse but basically what they did was they ryan i've met ryan he's almost like he i i don't know the best word to describe it but he's one of these guys that was doing ayahuasca before ayahuasca was cool like when i went and hung out with him like he had his toenails painted because like there's something around that i don't exactly know what it is but there's like something around that like he's like eccentric and i don't think he probably knew anything about google ads or facebook ads and so he said he hired a guy on upwork to help run google ads for them and that's how they started so what and and even sent me a screenshot basically it shows their revenue it shows their ad spend and it shows a broken down on google facebook and even bing a little bit but like just looking at their total paid media i doesn't i wanna to zoom in on this this is these are kind of bonkers numbers so this is is this a month what what what is i think this is this monthly i think this is monthly which is crazy so last month i know if it's last month but one month eight hundred sixty thousand in ad spend so eight hundred sixty k in a month and then there ro as on that return on ad spend was seven point one to get just to put this in this is the that's bananas nobody has seven or eight x extra as they said they've had that basically from the beginning they they used to get ten over ten x now it's sort of like between seven and ten x to get a seven x extra that means you're it's you have a machine they put a box in this guy's house and it's a magic box and the box says if you put one dollar into this box you get seven dollars out that's what that means and so they have this box that they're able to put eight hundred thousand dollars in each month and get out you know six million dollars back and they're just doing that month after month after month and so you see it on google or ro is you know five point eight on facebook it's ten point seven i don't know why they're saying this by the way i would never reveal this information if i if i found a magic box that does this you know i would never share this with anybody but they said to do it so you know here here you go i think maybe they think they're they're pretty far ahead in terms of competition but i don't know if you didn't can get these numbers and anyone can get these numbers on because not they have no special sauce there that that's gonna be you know un un uncomfortable i guess why why do they agree to share this i just said i'm wanna talk about you in the pod like let me interview and i said whatever we talk about this is like on the record i guess if they changed their mind they'll let me know but i mean it's cool that they get a big feature that's cool but also this is crazy and just props to them these numbers are insane basically they own the whole thing so they bootstrap they haven't taken any funding and this is by the way gs twenty so they're coming up at four years so on facebook and this snapshot here this is accurate the there's this the c on facebook so the cost to acquire customer on facebook for them is three hundred eighty seven dollars they're selling this thing for five thousand dollars so you could see you're paying you know just under four hundred bucks ticket get somebody to pay you five thousand bucks amazing trade on on the ad spend and you could see why this thing is scaling so crazy you over a while eight million thirty three million of the now over a hundred million and they bootstrap it this is profitable they didn't raise any outside money and now they're expanding into like sauna and other shit too that's pretty insane what do you think this company could sell for let's say they they get to i have no idea what the profit is let's say get to a hundred so two thousand twenty they started at two hundred a quarter million dollars in entails in twenty in year four they're fourth year business they're gonna do a hundred million what could this sell for is this could this be a two or three hundred million dollar company definitely definitely yeah know i would if you're getting like just to put this in perspective if you're getting ad x ro under your money and let's say that continues either say they can if they said they're doing you know whatever eight to ten million dollars a month so they're over a hundred million dollars let's say a hundred twenty million in revenue the minimum that they should be selling for is 1x x revenue so a hundred and twenty million in this case let's say that because of their growth rate because of the insane profitability on their on their ads this company has to be you know make a bank right like normally peep most people in e commerce are breakeven even or slightly losing money on first order the you know that gets that's like you have a row as of like between one and two these guys are doing you know six or seven times better than that so so that's kind of insane this company should be worth you know two hundred fifty three hundred million dollars right now you know i i don't how big that clear light son company is but i pretty sure it's pretty big man if i'm these guys i might take that sale the to make that amount of money in three or four years and i don't know what their financial situation was before but let's just assume that they were just getting by owning a brick and mortar business that's wild that that is a crazy story i would take advantage of that or i would sell like thirty million dollars of secondary i would sell thirty million dollars at even like a hundred million dollar and dilute delete thirty percent only but now you got you know you put fifteen million bucks in the bank and you can keep going if you really wanna keep going that's what i would do in this case because you could bank that huge life changing sum because these e commerce companies let's say you know ad flips competition flips whatever they don't like retain that much value because the sale is already done in the past you basically get no credit for past you know past sales here because it's not recurring revenue it's not like a network effect style business so you know you're really only as good as your next year when it comes to e commerce i i i think at least so yeah i would i would definitely take some money off the table it's crazy though and and by the way i don't know like what the science is behind cold punching i still i've long have i owned it for two or three years i still use it three days a week like i'm into it it's clinically proven to make you post on social media at least three times more so that's one proven effect there was this one tiktok where these guys were joking and they were like you know it's crazy to think about it but for the first twenty minutes after the titanic sank the passengers were actually healthier until they died they actually were increasing their lifespan twenty percent during that first pull fund they're totally suddenly died and they're like they're like too bad wim hof wasn't there to teach them how to breathe right they reduced their risk of heart attack they're were like they're like imagine if wim hof was there like this feels nice but there was about fifteen minutes you should do he should re to the titanic method he should be like oh you don't do titanic breathing this this would save you would live even if you're on the titanic if you learned this shit it's was about fifteen minutes where they are a peak physical shape anyway that's the update on plunge i finally got an update on them i'm shocked at how they're doing i guess i'm not that shocked it's five thousand dollar product i just i guess i'm shocked at how many people would buy into this never in a million years what i've thought this many people would buy into this and wanna get cold however many times a week so that's my update on unplugged i got one thing i wanna jump right into it's something that's been on my mind it's been grinding my gears it's been a little a little itch i need to scratch and that is supplement testing so you're a big supplement guy it sounds like you're setting up an ad by the way we have to say this is not an ad no no this is not bad this is just me being corny so i've been thinking about this idea because i've been buying a shit ton of supplements and i don't know about you but like people are like oh you know you take i'm like yeah they're like how how like is it working i'm like how the fuck how would i know it's a supplement you never know if supplements working right like i personally feel that way i don't know if i'm just not tune like with my body when do you take stuff do you have like a clear like this is helping me the versus this is not when it comes to actual like supplements there's basically only one or two supplements that i've ever taken or i'm like this is working so i take either melatonin or magnesium at night and that's the only those are the only two where i'm like alright i'm it helps me go to sleep faster besides that protein so but protein is it protein is a supplement but it's you know it's yeah it's a nutrient so like you wanna eat more protein whether it comes through a powder or not i noticed my muscles get bigger besides that i don't think i've noticed a difference in mostly anything even protein for it's not even like i feel my muscles getting bigger i just feel more full so like okay that did something like that is like kind of like a meal replacement i got it like even cr teen i start taking cr and i thought that cr team would be i thought cr team was gonna be the hardship shit i was like okay here we go i've crossed the line i'm doing the hardship shit now now it's just gonna be like a little unfair these gains that i'm about to be having can't feel anything you with nineteen no i don't feel anything when i was taking testosterone i felt that but that's i don't know if that would be under the the the heading of supplements but like basically if it's illegal or band sports i've noticed a difference besides that if i could buy if i could buy a target i don't know if i've noticed a difference right if you're not having to text a guy to get it you're not gonna feel it so i feel like with supplements is an opportunity the opportunity with supplements is to be the most trusted source when it comes to supplements so for you where do you go when you wanna find out if which brand you should be taking or which brand you should not be taking or what's the most effective what's the cleanest what's the healthiest for you what where do you go to get that information right now so i use examine dot com to figure out which supplements are like which the science has shown that it works but examine dot brand right yeah examine dot com in order to stay neutral they don't promote any brands right and so i go to amazon i talked to friends it it's pretty challenging it's also challenging because do you remember the mattress review websites like the top one it ended up being owned by casper exactly and so it was incredibly challenging to find like which like for example some protein brands will say we have twenty five grams of protein per scoop and then you go to research it and it's like no this one actually only has eighteen or this has some certificate certification which means they had to do jump through this hoop or that hoop it's actually quite challenging to figure out who's clean and who to trust i think it was casper that owned was it casper or purple that that owned a bunch of the the top mattress blogs that had like there were like for fifteen years there were like a normal blog and then they went bottom them out and then they like started promoted their own shit and it's the same thing with with supplements you know like the what's rule number one if you create a protein brand you go you buy your brand name your domain and then you buy the truth about protein dot com because you're gonna need that too in order to promote your own shit it's really hard it's really hard the reality is that supplements and health and wellness are on the way up people are are it's becoming more and more normal to take a wider and wider variety of these things there's more and more brands in the market because now you have d brands so anyone can create a brain you don't need to fight for shelf space because you can just be on the internet the infinite shelf and i think the need has become bigger than ever for somebody to become the trusted person and i say person specifically here the trusted person around supplement testing and if you've seen this guy fl city no how do you spell it fl v then city so fl city is this guy that my mom will send me my mom will always send me this things thing so this guy's stick is genius like in terms of content creation this is such a good niche and it is so perfect so what he does is he's like i'm a trusted guy i'm not like some super expert or whatever but i just i'm a guy who knows things but what he does is he goes to a grocery store you go look at his instagram he'll go to a grocery store it'll be at costco he'd be like the thumbnails him holding up let's say almonds or or no it'll be like parmesan cheese and he'll be like don't buy this see and he'll turn it around he'll be like see it has parmesan on cheese milk that's fine but then it has artificial flavors we don't like artificial flavors because they're gonna be bad for go blah blah instead by this one and he'll have another one at costco that's better he's like see this one doesn't have artificial flavors doesn't have this it doesn't have this but it's the best one you could find a costco so he's doing it right now in instagram he's doing it for veggie straws which is like those potato chips that are like whatever they're supposedly made out of vegetables he goes this is bad for this reason here are some here here are some better ones for you lesser evil power curls si puffs jackson's sweet potato chips and you and he looks at the back of veggie straws and he tells you what's wrong with it right and i'm giving this to my kids right veggie shi oh that's better than chips his veggies right and it's like so he's he just debunk a lot of things and he's got his whole thing he's very high energy he does mainstream products that are in shopping sent in the shopping stores and he'll be like this one bobby approved and he's like got his own little stick where he's like this is bobby approved and he's like he's basically doug tomorrow but for you know packaged goods instead of two point five million followers that post and the veggie straw ones that i just said has twenty five thousand likes exactly because it's super affordable because as soon as he says something and you know somebody who eats that you share it with them and then he becomes a trusted source he's not selling you anything he's just telling you better and worse he's telling you what to avoid or he's like okay it's it's the holiday he he's got one holiday booze halls it's like these are the things to you know to buy and don't buy when it comes to booze or farm salmon his farm salmon good or bad and he just uses the like thinker emoji so you're like oh shit is there something i need to know about arm salmon is that not is that not healthy i thought that was he's got another one who ditch the goldfish right so he's he's taking these popular products he's doing this so i think this is genius i think more people should literally just copy him because there's room for more here and you could differentiate by being you know a mom who's gonna be trusted by moms and do more mom products than than what he's doing or you could be a meat head who's doing more protein gym gym bro type of content that's kinda what more place more dates is doing but i think this format is beautiful so let me just tell you about this opportunity okay so here's how i'm thinking about this do you know consumer reports they test like every product elliptical and you know coffee machines and whatever else do you know about the company itself because consumer i do we brought them up i'm not gonna i'm not gonna steal your skis here but it's wild it's wild they're nonprofit do you know you could give give me an accurate guess you don't have to give me the homie guests where you guess low to make me feel good give me the what you think the real guess is their revenue per year do you know a hundred almost three hundred million dollars a year two eighty nine that's insane it's crazy right and it's all subscription revenue what's that it's all subscription revenue too i think yeah i don't know the exact mix but it's it's a non profits so you can actually go find a bunch of their stuff so if they have like two hundred fifty million of assets on their books which like profits or or famous for like having you know high revenue high expenses and then just like a a lot of assets on the books and so you you have to you have to spend a hundred sixty bucks a year in order to get access to their articles and it's old as old as hell like you go there and literally like the website looks old you know like when you see videos of people from like the nineties or the eighties and it's just like the haircuts are old the fashion is old it's all old and like these people have eighties haircuts and i just realized i saw this is time for a new consumer reports j power does this for cars right j power what is a j power and associates i don't know who these people are i don't know what they do two hundred forty million a your of revenue so i think there's is an opportunity to create the new age consumer reports or jd power around supplements specifically and i would do it in the tiktok format so what fl city's is doing i would do it that way and i would test every single product and i would test it in a scientific way that people can't so they claim that it has this many you know grams of protein per scoop let's find out truth or dare right i dare you to have the round of protein you say and you do a little fifteen second put thirty second video that's kind of you know talking about each one of these products the beauty of short form video is for the mister b said this to me and and i and i kind of was like i never ever thought about the most before he goes for the first time ever short form video is the only contact format that can be posted on every social network at the same time i was like what is like yeah basically let's take you know instagram is a single photo that's filtered cool you could post that on instagram you could kinda post it on facebook you might be able to post that on twitter but if it wasn't the native way of doing things and you know like but but or you can't post that on snapchat the same way like you can't do that but with short form video you can literally get on tiktok youtube instagram facebook snapchat every single social network is compatible with short term form video which means short form video is now the dominant the dominant content format to be creating it and i so i think if you do this you could go across all of them you can't monetize that the so typically the way there's basically two ways that you maybe there's three there's two main ways you monetize it so there's affiliate which is wire cutter dot com i've got a i know guy named dennis who started best reviews dot com he sold it for a hundred and ten million dollars to the worst named company on earth it was called trunk which was i it's basically the company i think that owns la times and he sold it for a hundred and ten million bucks after trunk it should definitely be like a women's jeans brand that's like t all about your butt or something yeah trunk is a horrible day it's the junk in the trunk you know i'm that it's a really bad name it's one of those names that sounds like a noise and so they they sold the trunk i i think after four years and they monetized it the same way as wire cutters so it was through affiliate but wire cutters one of the few i think nerd it does a good job where they do trust where for some for some reason i still trust something even though i know they're get paid per click right and then the other one which is harder to pull off but a way better business is subscription and that's what can consumer report wire cutter i think can has that trust even though they're clearly pushing you know they're clearly making money off the recommendations i think two things one it's like good design and copywriting so it feels like a person is talking to you and it feels right like it's like clean same with the points guy they're not saying who's the best what they're saying and what they do is they say best on a budget this is the one we recommend if if price is no no problem this is the best one period on the market and then kind of the most common popular option is this one so instead of it being here's our favorite and yeah it's the one we're getting the best kickback on they kind of give you options of like depending on your situation we think this is the best in that situation and i feel like for some reason that changes it and then it's like yeah we we make money you know we get an affiliate on each one of these but like they're all equal we're not saying one is better than the other we're saying one is better in this situation so i think and one of the reasons why i think they do that is i i know the founders of nerd wall and if i remember correctly so nerd wall dot com slash best dash credit dash card so that's one page if i remember correctly that so basically their whole business model was to make that page rank number one in google if you search best credit card and for a long time that one page was making like forty million of their like forty five million dollars a year in sales and then they were like alright now when need you do best credit card for students best credit card for fixed income people best credit card for your first time credit card and they had a diversify because best nerd dot com slash best credit card was getting all of their sales it was that that and their whole company strategy was write articles that get linked back from like you know news dot com or business or whatever get high quality links and then in those articles link back to slash best credit card it it was a pretty wild strategy and it worked or it's working yeah you basically wanna write articles that get links to your overall domain authority goes up but then you got one or two money maker pages and those are those are the pages that you need to be the number one search result for the way you do it is by creating all this goodwill around the other pages the sort of seo goodwill so i think you would think that short form video is hard to monetize but well that's not what you're monetizing you're not monetizing the short form video you're monetizing the trust so today who is both the most trusted voice in science and supplements and the man most likely to be in sam's fantasies yeah my husband andrew eb exactly yeah and as a what are they them my my hub my husband's or something like that yeah what what did they say so i i posted a shirtless picture of him and he's like and i and i was like people were like what did they say they're i'm hub i'm hub man yeah he he posted his first shirtless video the other day and men around the world were gasping clear the calendar honey yeah alright so lieberman makes money through his ads and his podcast but remember when rob du was on the pod and he was talking about momentous protein and he's like yeah momentous was kinda dead in the water we thought we had made the best clean his protein but really wasn't going anywhere and then we did a deal with andrew hub and we were like how much did you pay him and he goes i don't know whatever it was it wasn't enough but it was like and he was just like laughing and how crazy that that was so you know i think the business model here is you build trust for a couple years and then you come out with your own branded supplement right you wanna be in the supplements game you don't wanna your whole premise though of finding the most trusted no no no you you are the most trusted you build the trust by say and then finally you say look i've had it with these companies i've had it with these i am just gonna make the one that i wish existed the one that is truly clean that is gonna hold the up utmost standard right dirk for more plates more dates that's exactly what he did somebody like jessica alba with honest company kinda did the same thing she builds a bunch of fame and trust in one area but then she comes out with the honest company she's like this is gonna be the honest brand the product i wanna give to my kids which by the way i buy momentous protein in part because i trust rob and rob was involved and i buy bp vpn which is nick bai you know the jack guy who runs fast i was like well these guys both seem trust for the i'll buy their stuff so i spent all my money with them right because what else do you have to go on is you if nothing else to go on this packaging or that packaging right like what else do you have to go on besides the words of somebody you trust and so i think that's the way you do this ultimately is you you ultimately build your own supplement franchise around this more like the honest company but i think so first for a couple years you're just becoming the most viral trusted source when it comes to the truth about x and you gotta pick things that are gonna be very shareable as well as you know you know establish your authority in that niche to be able to i'm i'm the most knowledgeable trusted source when it comes to what should i be taking by the way we've talked about to eat this not that category and we we loved it i think we talked about a a year and a half or two years ago we love the eat this not that category it's the best well i would love that did me say that because i remember talking about fl because that's his thing right eat this not that he was doing we i i mentioned that maybe a year ago but i really hadn't like fully wrap my head around it so eat this not that was a line of books i remember buying at barnes and noble like i don't even how to say how do you say i used to call barnes and nobles i remember buying it at barnes and nobles years ago when i was like in fourth grade it was eat this not that and it would just show a picture of doritos and then it would show an alternative and it it would explain why it was a massive hit for a book series and i remember buying like all of them and i think we said we're like fine for a book but this has to be beyond that right and we talked about it i think with stuff two years ago yes yes so i think this is a a clear like content niche that can turn into a pretty monster business and there's a bunch of different and there's a bunch of different angles depending on who you are derek for more play dates obviously it's the gym market but then fl city hits the like mom shop costco shopper market and you should just keep there's there's a lot more niches than that the new york times did this article the other day or a few weeks ago and it was my guru is better than your guru and they talked about how people like you and i you know you you and i are team hub but then there's this other group whose team peter and that there's this other one who's team peter like my father loves this guy named mark mark kin or something like that and it's like well my guru said this and it's just crazy how we find these guys that we stick to and whatever they say we don't know like i can't tell you entirely why he suggests x y and z but i know he should should suggested that and i will go to bat and fight other people whose their guru had x y and z and i don't even know why i just know that i trust andrew that's my guy and i thought it was really interesting how it is turning to be something like that have you ever heard this explanation of why gossip exists evolution no extraordinary nerdy but it's it's found fascinating so everything has a value right like even like what we consider negative emotions like fear why does fear have value well you know if you're hunter gather and there's a lion you know fear or paranoia can be a very useful survival tool and and you needed to be super fearful paranoia at a certain period of time maybe less so today but we can see why that's evolution baked in but that that applies to everything and so gossip is a good example gossip if you just talk to most people gossip negative thing right shouldn't do it bad you know poor perform it's a it's sort of a lowly thing to do and actually gossip is extremely useful so you think about humans live in tribes and we're in the society well it's impossible for me to know one by one with each person about their character and their reputation myself through only firsthand experiences and so how does a tribe function well gossip is actually a necessary thing i should know that if this person's un trust because rumor should spread so that the tribe as a whole becomes almost immune to this char through gossip and i don't have to myself go and have a first firsthand bad experience so in that way gossip has saved me from getting my you know my hand burned off on the stove many times and so i kinda feel like the the same thing exists where it's sort of silly in a way to you just trust these online influencers these guru don't you know they're just trying to sell you something well yeah and there's there's some amount of that but at the same time what am i gonna do go test all my supplements myself like the inefficiency that would be brought in if i didn't trust these people what am i gonna go read all the white papers myself about clinical studies no i'm not gonna do that i'm gonna we're all gonna outsource that task to somebody and we're gonna trust them until they burn our trust and then we're gonna move on to the next one but like almost like as a tribe it is the efficient way to do things even though it's kinda seen as this low iq move it's actually not a low iq move it is the like sort of like game theory optimal move to trust people or to trust gossip in certain situations where you're not gonna wanna do the first hand work yourself look at george ford tells me what grill is best for my brat worse i listen to george she looks like he eats a lot of brat worse no i get it where did you just go and read a book and gossip where'd did you get this i heard this a long time ago and you know my brand was just connecting the dots just now i wanna tell you about another health company that's related to all this but before you do we have a quick segment it's called thrill of the chill and so it's a time where we're each gonna take a turn your turn is this time to promote whatever we want but it's to thrill to show because you're gonna show something but you're gonna thrill me a little bit so about eight months ago you invested in a company called she yeah you sent me a graph i get updates every once in a while i try not to get too much information because i don't ever wanna reveal something i'm not supposed to reveal but you sent me a graph things are going more than good i think i think it's you can say how many at time it's multiplied but now is your sixty second thrill thrilled to show moment oh amazing oh the pressure is on to thrill with this show listen the way i gonna make this thrilling is i'm gonna share little info alright share a little info not about the business and the internal numbers necessarily but about what's working so i can what i can say high level we the business for you the company or we joined the other called shepherd and what they do is they basically make it easy to hire so i was using them to hire from my e commerce company because i wanted to hire more people but i didn't have the budget so i was like alright she has talent in the philippines in lat so like we needed the shopify developer alright i need to pay an agent expensive agency or hire some guy but i found a guy for twenty five hundred a month who's awesome and i did the same thing with customer support and i did the same thing all whole bunch of these roles and so i was using them and i was this is a great business and i'm gonna buy into it i bought into it and since then the business have basically tripled so we've tripled the business in eight months and the business was already doing well to begin with so that was kind of like we exceeded expectations now what actually worked well when i joined i thought alright boys i'm coming in hot i got ideas i don't know if you've heard i got a business podcast i think i know a thing or two about business why don't you list of my ideas and i had all these like exotic ways that i thought we could you know make things better and the reality was the the the big lesson the big takeaway here was a lesson that i had heard early on in the podcast there was a guy who came on this podcast i don't remember his name but he made this he has a bag company peak design got his his first name sorry but he peak design and i was like dude did you sell like eighty million dollars worth of this like camera bag what the hell man like what's your what was your growth what's your secret and he's like oh dude i used to listen to all these business guru they talk about like advanced planning and like you know like long long term thinking and super strategic stuff he goes to me business is the six inches right in front of your face and i was like what and i was like this is also the speech for any given sunday and he's like yes business is the six inches in front of your face and you just gotta keep knocking out the six inches and so when we were talking about shepard i was like alright well you know cool ideas sean but like what's the six inches right in front of our face and we basically did one thing one thing that really really worked and the one thing that really worked that was not expected for me was they just did a very simple analysis they go how do we get more of our best companies customers and less of our worst customers was i think an exercise anybody should do like did you ever do this with either advertisers at the hustle or like or hampton like did you ever define like butt bucket out like who are the best customers who are the worst customers with the worst customers take up eighty percent of your time basically what happens is you get in this habit of where you're like i'll take any amount i'll take any customer and take any money whatever i'll just do whatever and then you get all these shit people and then you're like oh my god this sucks like this guy takes so much time and i don't even make that much money from them i have to learn who do i fire and who who's who who do i go after instead exactly and what most people do is they do it at the beginning which i think is the wrong move because you're being you don't really know and you do need to be in this little bit desperate and kind of brute force things but there's a point where you got a check like you know if with nine months in you haven't checked in do this check end which is basically draw a little piece paper and write our top you know ten to twenty percent of customers and our bottom ten to twenty percent of customers bottom is like drag out your time lowest profit you know like most headache most support required and then the top is the opposite and so what this a little exercise and the thing we realized was we thought the business was people hiring virtual assistance because that was the most common thing people would come in for it right you come in you need a va just to do some tasks or maybe it's a personal assistant for you or have travel booking meetings scheduling that stuff and it does do that that's fine but then we were like you know who's this group of customers that they hire twice as much as everybody else and they're like lt tv the lifetime value of these customers is also like you know forty fifty percent higher to who was it and it was people who needed bookkeeper i was like what and they're like bookkeeper and they're like you know the reason we didn't see it is because it's all concentrated in certain spikes so basically bookkeeper everybody hires them after tax season and it's like you go through the pain of tax season and then you're like alright never again they're like gonna feel that and so you're like companies will basically hire bookkeeper like dude it was such a mess such a time suck this year just need a a bookkeeper and we're like a small business we don't need like a fancy bookkeeper let's hire an overseas book bookkeeper and so they they do that or accounting firms or anybody who is a tax tax company they need more bookkeeper or they're a bookkeeping firm they need more bookkeeper and so they would hire they would hire lots of the same talent that talent is priced a little bit more so there's more profit on that higher and so anyways we just by identifying one little thing but there was like three things like that that we did those were the like tweaks that weren't very sexy that made a big difference that's so kinda of that's my little my my thrill of the show today is to to remind you go do that little eighty twenty exercise on best and worse customers once you're like i don't know about right around a year into the business because it will refocus you in a good way you gotta give the url oh yeah so go to support shepherd dot com for whatever you need to hire for whether it's bookkeeper virtual assistants developers designers they got you know basically they go find the top one percent of talent in these countries they got boots on the ground there like literally interviewing people and then you can go find the elite talent there for basically eighty percent less than if you hire people in the states alright that's the thrill of the show that's pretty good pretty good first thrill first thrill chill yeah i i was thrilled alright so let's do another one so i got i got one thing for you so did you see trunk tweeted this out and i found this kinda interesting so he tweeted out about this chinese qui did you ever see this tweet no but is it working so yeah i think it is which is the funny part so is it chinese as an in china or for chinese american but chinese content it's chinese like tiktok is chinese it's made by a chinese company but it's at the top of the us charts it's a company called real short real short it's called real short so basically here's what he says it's bite sized english scripted video content so it's like qui but instead of paying for hollywood hit it's cheesy degrade soap opera slash hallmark films the shows are all about affairs scandals marital in entry and absurd plots for example son law's revenge i'm getting married without you or never divorce a secret billionaire arr let me just pause here i'm in on real short okay that was all i needed to hear i this is this smells like a winner to me alright so so i i like this general concept short video that's scripted versus just like people's you know tiktok but it's like junk food it's junk food content it's it's like you know mori p hallmark film like you know it's just stuff that like it's not high brow it just appeals to people people are gen you know people have to turn their head to to look at this stuff it's like hallmark right so you a show is typically fifty episodes each episodes only ninety to a hundred twenty seconds each they started off by adapting a bunch of chinese romance like kind of soap opera for western audiences it's free to watch but you watch ads to unlock more episodes or you could pay coins to unlock them faster tech ranch estimates that this app has been downloaded eleven million times already across ios and android and generated over twenty two million dollars in revenue since august twenty twenty two so twenty two million dollars in year one not bad it's owed by this chinese company c group and they're expanding their audience because the shows were so kind of like addictive and like you know bad that they were banned in china so where do you go america the las vegas of the world where anything goes and so they brought it here pretty crazy and so so don't you what do think of this i'm it's this is insane to me so the actors and actresses they're white people so is it white is it like are they appealing to america four americans it's like everything else made in china made four americans so who's who who's buying i mean so this is just buying my mind so you know hallmark you know hallmark like you know the cards and channel familiar yep so that that company still does about five billion in revenue i think it's a family owned business so it's still like a huge thing hallmark is it the shops plus the tv or they separate businesses it's so the whole company does five billion in sales but i think a a significant amount of the revenue is not from cards i think it's from the the the channel so it says worldwide hallmark has twenty seven thousand of employees holy crap so and and hallmark channel is like a big line of their business which i think they sold part of it to liberty media and so it it's like a huge company still and i think it's it's family owned based out of missouri yeah yeah that's great okay so hallmark much right so you're in it just tell me you're in so a few years ago i i've told this before my friend ramon and i ran a test where we created this book called captivating clear i think that's what it was was called captivating clear and basically ramon ran a soap opera website and he had this guy on his staff that loved to write short stories and they were erotic short stories and what we did was we created a wordpress blog a a wordpress blog and i think we called it short but romantic dot com and basically over the weekend we he had wrote a story on a friday on friday night the wordpress blog was made and at the very bottom of the wordpress blog it was basically just one page of a blog post and it said we hope you enjoyed this first iteration of of captivating claire from short but for short but romantic if you wanna see part two here's a paypal link it's ten dollars a month sign up and we will mail you the part two of the story next week when it comes out and we used fiber and we got a narrator to do it this whole project took four hundred dollars we drove trick traffic for the next day on saturday we had like three hundred dollars in sales and we were like holy crap and if you look up the blog you might have to use web archive to do it but because i think we took it down or the domain expired i remember reading it if you look at the blog and you go to the comment section you'll see these people were obsessed with this they were like oh my god cleared at this i can't wait to read part two and it was mind boggling and then we were on sunday we were like we don't really wanna be in this business like this doesn't really fit our interest i think he should still should have done it what he he was going to he he the ramon is gonna do this business we we had both invested in him he was about to do this business than one of his other businesses kinda took off so that yeah dog ramps took off but he was like really dead set on this and i was like i don't know seems like it could be pretty great and this real short is proof that that that that that idea i think was on to something it's it's i was amazed at that young women what they wanted to buy and knew were undoubtedly you know we're trying hard with this channel we go every every week we work on this channel we have a we have youtube and it's growing we're doing we're doing great small and mighty we've been climbing up the charts and in about a year we got to about three hundred fifty thousand subscribers and when we really knock it out of the park with a great episode we might get few hundred thousand views well just go look at real short on youtube so somebody started uploading the real short episodes but like the like episodes one through twenty together so real short romance three hundred thirty thousand subscribers they posted a video like two months ago and it has you know it's it's a double life of my billionaire husband three point seven million views go look at the comments it's exactly what you're talking about christine joyce i hope there will be more video from these two the chemistry they have heart emoji prayer emoji dude they're not even optimized they have a real short watermark on them and it's vertical video yeah exactly and then other person's you know joe and bongo nine six nine nine six says oh i watch this on facebook rules i got hooked by it i love the story in the cast good job guys i can't wait for the next episodes and there are thousands of comments in this comment thread that are all about i can't wait the next episodes i love the storyline this is better than hollywood oh my god i'm hooked this is working and this you know what is my take so my take is number one interesting business that i've never heard of good job trunk i had i never heard about this so i'm glad he put this on my radar second thing the difference between a good idea and a bad idea is just a few small decisions qui gets made fun of as a classic silicon valley idiotic startup it's like oh man remember qui it's like it's like the butt of a joke in silicon valley yeah this will be as successful as qui qui i think was the right idea small micro content like you know tv shows shrank down i think can be really successful the problem was they raised two billion dollars and spent it all on like really high production quality stuff that wasn't that juicy and never got people hooked whereas real short is basically like starting with getting people hooked and then figuring out you know the rest as it goes the third thing is the third takeaway is why do i have so much faith in the chinese like what i even started to read his tweet i was like oh chinese company trying to do qui but better and i was like probably gonna work i would bet more on this random chinese company that i've never heard of than jeffrey katz the guy who created qui that was like the creator of dream works and why is that i don't know maybe it's because through my e com brand i like do business with you know chinese companies and the way they run their businesses i mean like that's my real nba is when i talked to like the factory owner in china about how he's running his business and i watch how he moves and he came out here to meet us and we're talking to him and the you know just that the way they conduct themselves is awesome the way they work is awesome they're like level of complexity they can like handle is awesome and it used to just be with manufacturing only and then ticked out came and was a total narrative violation it was like oh you think they could just say it'll make cheap plastic toys no no watch this we'll make the hit social app that's all about cool and culture we'll appeal to the us team better than an american startup could you know what it using to me it's a lack of the ego is what it is so qui was this cool la company i think they even reach out to you and tonight they're like you guys wanna make content for this show business yeah i was like i i i i don't know but but not that work quote cool guys but we are we are based in san francisco and we lived a on paper what seemed like an interesting life like people building startups where i say if you're gonna spend money on us to start your platform your platform gonna fucking fail alright and obviously but but we should not be part of your platform but they went after like cool people like you know i i imagine they have like high like big time celebrities and shit like that whereas i think a lot of people in silicon valley in la i think they do the same thing you know if you look a lot of d brands it's like they spend most of their money on shit branding some agency that was overpriced with lowercase letters based out of brooklyn and in reality like this whole middle america i think particularly since a lot of entrepreneurs in the text base are young men they forget that there's this whole contingency of a hundred and fifty million people who are at home and they just wanna goof around and watch something like this and their ego prevents them from creating something that's quote low quality which exactly this fits that bill you would see this and you're like this is stupid no one will watch this whereas someone else who just like yeah dude i just wanna win i just wanna do whatever it says i'm gonna follow the numbers and i think a lot of people would be embarrassed to create this thing and i don't think they should be but i think they feel that way whereas whoever we're talking about these chinese folks they're just like yeah but we're just setting out the build a great company right know what i mean well what is their demand for we could be supply versus you know we hired you know if a company has twenty percent of people that wear non prescription glasses like it's you're not gonna make it in this game because you just have too much you know sort of like hips you that's not actually gonna focus on what the market wants you're gonna try to sell them what they should want rather than what they actually do want someone tagged us in this picture of a thai restaurant and it was called tie near me high food near me yeah thai thai food near me where it was clearly someone was just naming the restaurant you know aaa locksmith in order to rank high on yelp yeah and that's that immigrant hustle that i appreciate and i respect and they actually made the branding queue it was like a was a cute sign and it was clearly a joke but that is lacking i think in a lot of our circles and this app real short they don't hide hear me yeah it's tie food near me they they've got they they're just a they own a store and they're like looks like people buy a lot of vape looks like we're in the vape business you know what i mean and i appreciate that like man these kids love this great flavored smoke right we're gonna start selling more of that even though i don't always agree with it i appreciate the mentality so you you weren't there for this but i didn't episode with j i don't know if you heard heard it yet yeah i started watching this morning i love j do you know her besides like the episode like had you matter because she's right well jess was i i was gonna ask you all about it but jess i know her as like she was the prodigy so she was like on the cover of magazines at the age of nineteen or twenty for starting into near own and accounting stuff she was the the person on the cover of inc before right the month before me was elizabeth holmes well yeah and so she was like be a person for a minute but then over the last like six years she's went silent which in my head that either means you've done something bad or you're just quietly killing it and you just don't wanna talk about it and it sounds like the second one was definitely the answer and ind nero has been crushing it and she's been taking the profits or money from that and doing more things so is that right yeah pretty much exactly so she was like alright and if there was a good business it's not gonna be a monster business she had like a crazy life experience where her boyfriend died suddenly and then she was like just kinda depressed didn't wanna even go into work and was like alright wanna do in my life like you know reminder life is short nothing is guaranteed but she didn't say how big engineer was though what did she it's overnight it's nine figures and it's profitable is what she had said wow so it's over a hundred million in revenue and profitable so she was like alright i don't wanna run this company anymore i'm hiring somebody to run that and i'm gonna do whatever's is most interesting to me so her bets were kinda like she wanted like she's like well you know like what am i like what if i wasn't afraid to failure what would i go do so she had a couple things in the episode i think are gonna get lost in there but the big thing that i took away that i went and like basically after every episode i send a voice memo to ben about like here's the three things that like really like that that are my notes from this episode dude i i keep my notebook right here basically the thing i wrote i was like she had like three or four golden questions one of them was what would i do if i wasn't afraid to fail the other one was what was the other it like what would i do if i was billionaire there yeah if i had you know if i had five hundred million dollars in the bank what would i would do with my time and she had another one which was how will i deal with being an absolute beginner because if i'm gonna go do something new by definition i'm gonna be a beginner and suck at it and i know i'm scared of that feeling and i know that feeling is uncomfortable especially now that i have a little bit ego i've been on the cover magazines people highly of me how will i how will i deal with being at the bottom again and just asking that for sort of acknowledges that and then it kinda takes the power away from like that insecurity so i thought she had some like golden questions and then one of them was like she's like yeah like i was i was dude you're building these like biotech companies you're telling me about these technology technologies that i can barely even understand do you even understand these like is this your background or are you just a science genius i she was like no like i was a c student in biology like you know now i have a biology company is valued over a hundred million dollars like there's some irony there and i was like you know so what is it are you just like they can until you make it or did you like get really good really fast she's like well no like i partnered with people who are experts and i do the stuff that they're not experts at like commercial it so she's like but also i just started as a beginner she's like i literally hired a biology tutor and i started watching podcasts and ted talks and i would go meet the people and would ask them like a thousand questions and i would go do research after they i answer those and would ask them ten more questions after that and i would just keep doing that until like i felt like i a handle on things amazing i was like oh it's simple when you say it like that and so similarly i don't know about you but every day i go on twitter and i see ai magic in my feed and ai is the best magic trick like awesome cool demo product that i've ever seen in my life it just like an endless supply of awesome cool ten second demos i don't know if those will all become big companies but they're amazing demos in needed a tutor thing and so i did a two thing i was like oh yeah she's just hire somebody who because i was like either i'm gonna drop everything that i'm doing and like go learn about ai from as a beginner or i'm just gonna sip this one out because i don't know it's just this fast moving thing that the kids are doing and i i guess i'll just kind of catch up later that doesn't feel right either i was like why don't i do this i was like i put out a tweet i was like well if you're somebody who plays around with all these tools knows how to use them i will pay you five hundred dollars an hour pay whatever five hundred plus an hour so just sit with me a couple times a week and just show me just teach me about these tools to save me the kinda like ten hours of fumbling around i would be doing myself how many emails did you get i got like over a hundred replies from like interest like really interesting people so it's gonna be hard to kinda pick i might pick a couple people actually instead of just one because there's so many good ones and i might publish this so i'm thinking about creating a side channel this is like sean's playground my little youtube channel while i'll actually just publish the call so that even if somebody's not paying five hundred dollars an hour for this smart they can just get the benefit from it because i i don't need to hold this close to my best or anything but i think this is great and i wanna get myself a little pat on the but i really you wanna say it out loud because there's probably a lot of things like this like i know you're taking a finance course right now and that's like the same version that's like the same thing like like don't be afraid to go be a beginner you're supposed to be sam business podcast sold a business you know you you're supposed to be the guy who knows a bunch of stuff and you you came out and you're like i feel like an idiot when it comes to finance like corporate finance i just really don't know what the hell i'm doing what's the best course in this place and this thing i could take here i think you spent like five grand on a course right how's is yeah it's called the four day mba with keith cunningham and yeah i'm trying to learn how to do all the stuff it coincidentally someone did a video some billionaire there guy i did a video and he's like don't get nba just go take this course i don't huge endorsement i like i saw it when you said that at went to the website website sucks and i was like this sucks why did sam do this and clip but i was like okay that's now two people that said this is awesome i will now go do this thing it's a great course it's a great course and i think i think my opinion how do i say this without something like a huge douche once i got a little bit of success i got way less nervous about hiring people to teach me how to do things additionally i mean i've we talked about a ton my body tutors or in hiring a fitness coach hiring coaches and things like that kinda changed my perspective of of the whole quote coaching industry which i used to think was bullshit no like teaching having people teach me how to do stuff has kinda changed my life a little bit and this course is awesome i have nothing to do with it i i posted that link and people thought that i like i was no i i just think it's cool it it's changed my life to be honest like going back to school and like learning and having people just teach me things i think it's gonna be really smart for you to do it this way i also think that if you promote it it will pay for itself so that's always fun but i think you're gonna have a life changing next two months if you file through with this yeah yeah yeah i'm i'm already you know the the roi is is is baked in in into this because because of but i guess like i wanna say it because i wouldn't have thought to do this unless jess so she you just said that thing in passing like i hired a biology tutor and in my mind i was like tutors or something that end when you're twenty years old there is no more tutoring after that and it's like why why is that the case hold on there's no rule about that and there's probably other people out there who kind of could do something similar so anyway i said it out loud mostly because if you're well the one percent of people that hadn't really thought about this but could benefit from it like do it do you know really what i wanna do is what i wanted to do is i wanna take a like one of those two week nba courses at columbia or stanford or something like that that was that's my goal for extra to do it and i went and i looked at like the list of topics that they're gonna cover and i was like i don't i don't even know what those topics mean so i gotta go take this online one prepare for this in person one because i was so embarrassed to to like see this and i used to make fun of these people that i would put like stanford you know like two week course one warning though so i took a a similar like a finance thing last year i think and it was good there's nothing like it was a good course there's nothing wrong with the course what you did it in person no it's a online online thing but i intended it and i paid attention like i was like if i'm doing this i'm gonna do it where'd you do it what's what's school it was on m so it was a a m finance course and so it was a really good course there was one thing that i'll say out loud which is before you go drop thousands of dollars because oh sam said this course is great make sure that like to me the way but the analogy is like these are all clothes on a hanger but you need a hook to hang things on and like if you don't have a hook the hook would be like a business you're currently running or like a a place you can go apply these learnings then i think they can be kind of like fancy procrastination or just for sure not work the the time of the money so you have to have enough either battle scars or like a place to go apply these that's actually gonna be like relevant for you otherwise it's very easy to just like intellectually sit there and be like yeah cool alright well i hope i keep that in mind one day when this becomes relevant like you're better off like building the business and then learning the things just in time that you need to know when you need to like when you need to know them versus trying to learn everything in advance and them but like now i'm prepared to go do the sport of business well the reason i'm doing is because when i was selling the hustle we like this whole thing came at the end called networking capital and i i was like i just don't know what this means right and i optimized my business in one way but then i i didn't know what this term was and i there was many things that i could have done differently that would have helped and like i felt so ema and stupid when these people were talking to me about networking capital and i'm like i just can't figure this out when you're explaining it to me i don't wanna experience that pain again and also i'm getting my balance sheet and my income statement and the cash flow statements every month from my accountant but i'm like i i don't know if this is good you're you accountants typically tell you facts and i'm like but i don't know how to interpret it i need to know how to interpret this to spot strengths and weaknesses and i just remembered when i was selling my company of not i'm like i know i kinda know how to make the money but i don't know what i don't know how to optimize any of these equations and i don't know what they mean and i felt so stupid during that it was just so challenging to figure out can i tell you one lesson i learned from that thing that was probably the one thing i remember that i didn't know going in i i just never even thought about which was the course i think it's called good business bad business or something like that and one of the things that's talking about when you differentiate between a good and bad business financially is your reinvestment runway so i don't know if you've ever heard this term or thought about this but it's essentially the idea that every business will say you know a hundred dollars comes in and you get twenty dollars out out of the bottom line right you have twenty dollar net profit what do you do with that net profit so idiots it's like us know i think you probably ran your business say i did i don't know just sits in the bank account i didn't even think about it really like it's there i i hope one day to take this out or maybe i'll i'll i'll use it to spend if we need if you have some expense or rainy day i don't know those think i won't even think about it and then you start to realize it okay the best businesses is they can either reinvest into the business itself so that like when a dollar profit comes out you can reinvest it back to top and get more than another dollar out and so he broke down like some of warren buffett businesses that had no reinvestment potential so like basically profit comes out and that's why buffett would take it to the headquarters the hold c and just say you the the best optimization you could do is when he bought a business he's like you're reinvest capital poorly i'll take that money i'll reinvest it in a whole different business and you will be a little cash cow but i'm not gonna keep investing back for more organic growth into this business which in our case would be like would be like maybe like a course business or maybe even this podcast like this podcast like grows like mostly organically we don't need to spend more money in order to grow great spending more money is not gonna create more money out of this business the best thing we could do is take the profits from this bad business and invest it in a better business that actually can do that and so you know that that was a in the what he talks about is like every business over time like you start out being able to reinvest but you had a certain point where a certain dollar threshold but now you can't reinvest more than that into this business at an efficient rate so you have to identify that point and no and then you could judge the business based on that so similarly you know the best business like constellation software or berkshire they're famous for basically taking profits from one at one bad business you know bad defined as like it's a normal cash flow business but you're not investing it back in that one you're investing it to buy another one of those and you invest that to buy another one of those and that by the way that's the whole point of this book good profit or profit first i andrew recommended i read it this weekend and you recommended the same thing was take money out of the business at least and put it into a different bank account and then red it into the your fast growing business if it if it warrants it or if you have a business that can take the reinvestment then you know that that business is actually even better than you than it looks on paper because it has this extra capability that most businesses don't have which is what cold punches is all of sounds pretty beginner for like anybody private equity or whatever that's not where we came from right like we're basically like do on the internet we then start creating internet companies and then like try to get rich off internet companies and now you know like we're starting to wrap our heads around like a lot of the like you know one one zero one type which by the way i think it's better to go that route i think it's harder to start things from scratch and then learn how to optimize eventually versus you optimize you're a good optimize but you don't how to start things from scratch like just creating the widget that someone wants i think is more challenging hundred percent plus it makes me feel good that that's true but like why did the same thing he's like it's gonna be easier for me to take badass engineers and teach them the basics of fundraising and hiring and firing than to take an nba who knows everything about fundraising and hiring firing but can't build shit and that was like the core bed of yc was we don't need to start these companies with mba we could start these companies with engineers if we could it's easy to teach than that it's impossible to teach the other way yeah i i and i completely agree with that and yeah it makes me feel better that way so therefore it is summary we're the best yeah we brag a lot in this episode it maybe we'll have another episode we're we'll just make fun of each other no the comments will do that for us here let me move the microphone so you get a good look here's my face here's my hair it's my body you can hear my voice i i i stu her sometimes what whatever whatever you got go ahead hit this in the comments alright that's a about i feel like got the rude to wear to know why i could be what i want to put at all in it like a days off on a road less travel never looking back so