alright everyone we just finished recording this pod and we wanted to come back and give a little bit of an intro because i feel so many different emotions and here's why the stakes of this are super super super high yeah we're talking about what's going on with robots in the real world so robots that are being used we have specific examples of really cool businesses that are doing robots for you know lawn care restaurants all different types of things but then we go over the elon musk versus sam almond lawsuit what is this lawsuit between two of the power players of silicon valley and what's our take on it which might surprise you as well as some of the brilliant the nuance the the marketing and p r that's going on here kinda call it out this is actually we have fun while doing it this is actually really really important in my opinion listen to the entire thing and you have to listen to the first half to build up the story and the stakes for the second half trust me you're gonna understand exactly what i'm talking about when you get through the whole thing yeah so enjoy it i feel like i could rude where i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a days on on a roll alright what i'm sam look hey what's going on sam i gotta tell you something when it comes to kissing eating ice cream before bed or business timing is everything my friends and i think i think that timing is important in all aspects of business and in technology there's a moment how right now i could feel it i could feel it my it's like when you hit your funny bone and your whole arm gets hot i could feel it right now shit's about to change robots are going wild i gotta talk to you about robots and they've like a bit around for a minute but now it actually feels like it's a reality exactly so right now a lot of people are talking about tesla because elon musk came out and he said the future of tesla is this humanoid robot and i forgot what to call them like optimus or some shit like that so it's like he's like hey we got this robot that can walk around pick up stuff do tasks is gonna change the workforce and your boy brent ad cox he's got a company called fig which you're an investor in they have their robot i think they just raised like a billion dollars or something right like gus last week i think they raised a six hundred million dollars at a two and a half or three billion dollar valuation i think nice little investment there for you i know i was in the first i was in on the first round i double down and did on this round is this gonna be my my mona lisa is this gonna be my my big win oh could've have been anybody's because you had him come on the podcast and tell the world what he was doing so good good on you you multi billion dollars valuation right now so that's a big deal and people are really excited about that i think there's these stats that say if basically labor is fifty percent of the gdp the labor market is a ten times a bigger market than trans protection which makes sense why elon is like hey forget cars it's all about these robots we're just we're an ai company we're doing robots he's very good at repositioning and re rei imagining the vision of the company over and over and over again right and went from affordable electric cars to self driving autonomous vehicles robo taxis that will just drive people everywhere your car will become an a appreciating asset instead of a appreciating asset and then now it's actually not even about cars it's about ai robots and that's that's the future but i wanna tell you about something that's less fancy than that because i think it's gonna come first and that is single purpose robots a aka roomba on steroids and roomba on steroids you know the roomba was a it's a single purpose vac little vacuum robot that just goes around your house and but it's in the wild today and like actually works it's actually useful for people an even better example i think is the dishwasher which is in pretty much every home in the united states right now and it saves you a ton of time like when you're like my dishwasher broke last week terrible experience when your dishwasher breaks the dishwasher is a single purpose robot that's actually out there in the wild we should be striving to create something as useful as the dishwasher that should be the north star right now for a lot of lot of companies and there are so i i went on twitter today and i saw this great video that was about a company called electric sheep have you seen this no electric sheep that's electric sheep i i don't know what it is that's a great name i think and i think it's a lot a lawn mower it is imagine if you took the rub and you put it in lawn that's what it is it's a that's a great name it is a robot that mo lawn does all kind of landscaping what's interesting about these guys that i found pretty fascinating is not only are they a company that's like a bunch of guys in a garage building a robot like a a lawn mower that's got camera on it that can go around your lawn they're actually buying up and rolling up landscaping services so it's a combination of a sweaty start and a moonshot startup together so these guys are going out they're buying all these landscaping businesses in the bay area and because they're like well we need a like a testing ground for robots like you have to actually like in their office it's just like a astro from they're yeah well i can do this square astro pretty easily it's it's not so bad but in the real world your lawn has got all kinds of different lumps and dips and pivot and trees and rocks and it has to be able to work how are we gonna get the best data right the same way that tesla is putting all like the cars on the road collecting data at all times and they're collecting like whatever a hundred times more data than the next biggest self driving car company these guys are trying to do that with their lawn care robots so they're buying these landscaping businesses then they use them for as a sandbox they take their robots out and they try to use them they they mow your lawn normally but they'll try to test their robots as well they gather the data and then over time they're like well we're buying these landscaping businesses at one valuation but then what we'll do is we'll slowly start to replace the workers in the landscaping business with the robots and actually have improved margins and so we're gonna like it's like a private equity play as well and so i thought that was a pretty fascinating approach that i hadn't heard before i can't decide if that's just overkill like maybe that's not actually necessary to to do to do two hard things at once but i did find it very interesting do you think of that strategy i'm looking at their website alright so it's slick this is cool i agree with you the whole overkill thing that bothers me that could be true well the problem is like the the founders like founder like went to stanford and like you're smart enough to build a robotics company that's almost you're smart enough where you can get yourself into trouble right you could be like oh we'll vertically integrate and it's like if don't use the word words vertically integrate be real careful you might be mid winning the shit out of your plan right now basically like for him there needs to be a venn diagram of this guy this founder of she robotics he's like the dumbest smart person and he needs to hang out with the smartest dumb person and we need that like we need that like venn diagram overlap to to make this the perfect business that's that's kinda like what he's doing this is awesome this is awesome this is cool another thing that i worry about this is bad what is it a bad team and a bad execution on like a small opportunity yeah like lot i mean i i don't know is lot knowing a big big i mean is it as grand of a plan as what these people are actually capable of doing i think so because i you know i don't know how big the landscaping industry is but i know that anytime private equities is going and rolling up things there's a lot of money to be made they they wouldn't private equity doesn't roll up you know like let you know small lemonade stands for example like they go into things that are that that our cash flowing you know industries and so i do think if you added up all the landscape of businesses and you're like well you know either what they're gonna do is they're gonna use them in their own business to get it right and then they're gonna go lease or sell these robots to every landscape or in the country and be hey would you like to improve your your operating margins by you know ten percent twenty percent use these robots and so that either that's what they're gonna do or they're gonna go try to out compete them somehow on price i don't really love that idea so i think it has to be they're just using this to prove their own tech to then go lease these out to every other landscape so on their about page they list their team and i guess their advisers include this guy named dan foley it says dan foley was a ceo of a company that sold to bright view i googled bright view bright use a commercial landscaping company that did roughly three billion dollars last year in revenue and it's publicly traded it's has a shit market cap what you're saying is the newsletter guy is calling the land guy small no what i'm saying is i yeah i did call i i did call it small and then i looked at bright view it it just shows i i i i'm i'm an idiot i don't know anything like every great band you're willing to change your mind congratulations i i'm only one google away from saying sorry so check so check this out okay so that's the first one now i i have a similar you know we're also robots being used again the single purpose robots not the general robots but single purpose robots and the same way that we got specific ai before we're getting our ag artificial general intelligence we got specific ai where it's like you know i don't it's been like twenty years since deep mine could just beat jerry casper at chess right like we we solved chess then we solved go then we math then we solved route planning you could do these single purpose ais that way before you can get to general ai so similarly i think the timing of the opportunity is not in the the tesla robot or even sorry the figure robot which is like just a human robot that could do everything you know that is the big biggest win obviously but i think before then almost by definition we have to see these specific single job one job robots because you get it's gonna be easier to build a one job robot than it is gonna be to build a general robot that could do all jobs and so here's some other ones so i don't know if you know this sam but this podcast is not only listen to people who are trying to make their first million but maybe by people trying to make their they're hundred million they're their neck their next million there's more millions to go and one of those people is the ceo of of a restaurant called sweet green and so the the ceo of sweet green is a list of the pod i was looking up where else are robots being used and i saw that sweet green actually now has a what they call their infinite kitchen which is a like robot driven version of sweet grain so sweet grain is like a salad bowl type of type of concept you normally go in there and there's like you know whatever four people working the line and then there's like four people in the back kitchen doing prep just like most fast casual restaurants and what they've done is they basically went in and they were like hey what if we this first i think they bought a robotics company for fifty million bucks and then they use that technology to build of concept where you basically have like one person in the store and the rest of it is all done by robots and so click this link that i put in our sheet we can show this on youtube by the way yeah is this jonathan newman yeah i know that he's a listener you wanna know how i know he's a listener don't tell me you're gonna free weekend screen and i'm not no even better he emailed me and he took a screenshot and he showed that he subscribed to my first million youtube podcast for apple and spotify so if you wanna be like john and start a multi billion dollar company you gotta subscribe that that's all you have to do i don't think there's been anyone who subscribed that isn't rich and famous and successful and desired by many people of the opposite sex we're the same sex if that's what they're into it's just a thing that works alright okay so so sweet green so check this this video out so basically what they did was they made these like this kitchen it's just like a giant wall where all the ingredients are in these threes little robotic kind of dispenser arm type things and whatever you order the bowl goes across the conveyor belt and then it's like the bowl is spinning it's like rotating so that it drops in all the ingredients at the right spots and again they have all kinds of ingredients right so like this sounds pretty simple it's just like dispensing but like maybe dispensing almonds is really easy but feta cheese which is really crumbly you gotta be careful with it right like so so they basically fine tune this thing and now this concept can do five hundred balls per hour and i idea him and i was like how much does like the human like a human lot like your normal restaurant line do he's like maybe like one seventy to two hundred wow so you get basically like more than two x the speed and now you have a robot that does work that can work twenty four seven never calls in sick never you know again always get puts the right proportion into into every bowl you know you have perfect food control cost and so you end up with a better version of an employee and the strategy the way that i think about this is you trade op for capex and trading op for capex is actually a pretty good idea i think you should further explain what that means so today all restaurants work with human labor your human labor is your operating expense it's the op and so and what that means is that for every hour that you're operating every every bowl that you're selling you need to pay a certain amount in wages to to employees and so let's say today you know you're paying twenty bucks an hour to people that work in these restaurants you got you know ten people working in the restaurant at any given time blah blah blah you can add it up let's just pretend that your labor costs come out to thirty three percent of your revenue and so the opportunity here which is i would say normal for for a restaurant food costs usually thirty percent labor cost usually thirty percent and so you you you add these up or you can't change the food cost but could you change the labor cost and so what what he did with these restaurants is every restaurant to put in these robots cost more money it costs more capex which is like the initial upfront investment and i think at their last earnings call they said it's about five hundred k to put the robot in so you put an extra five hundred k to build the store but again this is five of capex which means you can depreciate it which is good for your you know tax purposes whatnot and it's a one time cost versus your op is a every everyday of of operation and what they found was for that extra five hundred k investment they get an at least an extra seven percent of you know of net margin from from those restaurants that because they have less op and so you would take that it that basically creates you know some breakeven point where you say okay cool two years in we're gonna have paid off you know the cost of this robot or whatever and also he's like you know the five hundred k capex that's today and this is the most expensive it's ever gonna be like the costs are only gonna drop as we scale up as we refine the as we simplify the design like every version we come out with is just gonna be lower cost than this one and i asked them i go in ten years what are the odds that your restaurants are basically robot robot driven not human labor is this guy sweet is publicly traded rate yes it's see he are you allowed to say what he's gonna say right i what i said is there anything in that i can't share in this and he goes no i've shared all this but he was basically like it's very high right like and just just thinking about that a little bit out loud it's like man that means that the next ten years and not you know very know hopefully for in our lifetime restaurants are just gonna go for you know a lot of restaurants are gonna go from you walk in and there's just like a bunch of people who are sort of disgruntled people who would rather just be checking their phone right now then you know sitting there with this like stupid uniform on and it's just gonna go where you go in you push a button and then your bowl gets made by a robotic arm and then you walk out like that's gonna be things there's gonna be one human in the loop one one human whose job is now called you know robot maintenance robot operations and they're basically the guy's like the carrots machine got a jam let me go and take a little fork in and un jam that thing or hey i gotta refill the container of apples and so what the what these guys do with the speaker restaurant is the humans are all in the back doing the fresh prep of ingredients and then the robots are serving the customers and that's how they split it today so you and i are are fairly optimistic you know we try to see the the bright side of most things you in particular do that but let's try to be pessimistic right now a little bit so the argument that you're gonna see from a lot of actually most people i would think but particularly pessimistic but most people i think are gonna be pessimistic on this they're gonna say but this is gonna ruin the economy this is gonna ruin jobs and let me ask you a question before you actually give your opinion you have sean you own a business that employs warehouse workers roughly what's your annual turnover for your warehouse workers like how often do they go use a three p now but before would we when we had it in house it was i would say every year we're gonna replace ninety percent of the team so i was reading i think it was amazon i forget someone who employs ten or hundreds of thousands of warehouse workers for them it was it was one hundred percent so it was one hundred percent turnover rate and i remember talking to brett from fig and i go brett are you gonna like are you preparing to like be the most hated man in america right now and he was like well why and i said well because like you're gonna be you're get you're taking jobs and he was like actually taking jobs in fact there's all these warehouses that no one will no one's gonna work there they just literally cannot they cannot convince people to work there they whether they can't afford it or if it's just a people aren't interested in that type of work and then and then it goes plus the average turnover on a lot of warehouses it is a hundred percent so like they just can't keep people like in these jobs for a long time and so my question to you is are you pessimistic at all of what's gonna happen in fifteen years twenty years you know my first job i was a labor and then a dishwasher i bet i think you've probably have done similar things like that what's gonna happen first my first business was a restaurant business i was the guy chopped tuna and doing and all that stuff in the back bag doing dishes you know every every night i think there's two versions of pessimism the first version is it's not gonna work the second version is it's gonna work and that's a bad thing you're talking about the second version alright i think this i think i think it's gonna work if one hundred percent is going to work i think but i i asked the guy i was like how i was like what's the non obvious like only when you're in the weeds doing it is it really obvious about this but to the outside person they may be gloss over it was like what's what's that insight that's a great question he goes well it's like it's like most things in technology it goes the first ninety percent is easy which makes it really easy to have like a sweet demo and but everybody just immediately is like oh man this gonna change everything and it's like it will eventually and probably a lot longer than we we we want because it goes the so the ninety percent is easy the next nine percent is ten times harder so it's like you know the simple stupid example of this would be like you know dispensing almonds easy dispensing the right amount of crumbly feta cheese it is literally ten times harder than the elements problem right or like on a tesla like my tesla self drives and it's the autopilot is mostly good unless it's a flashing yellow light than it like freaks out and i almost die right or it's like if it's a dewey morning or it's a foggy this whatever or it's rainy here or there's construction there right it's like all these edge cases and then that's what he said it's like the last one percent is this even ten times harder than that first one and he's like so with self driving cars the problem is nobody wants a ninety nine percent good self driving car even if that's actually five times better than a human yeah it's like if i'm gonna dial on i'm gonna die on my own hands it's not at the hands of this you know this piece of software and so that makes it really hard to roll out these things and gets and and deal with the p backlash every anytime there is a a crash or a or a a a bad result even if it's less even if it's a better probability than than humans driving i don't think you have the same problem with restaurants right size of the prize is smaller but also the barrier gen entries the barrier to deployment is much smaller where it's like oh man i ask for light sauce this is medium sauce or like you know it's like whatever it's okay it's not self driving car crash and so i do think that that's the case here where a lot of people can get ninety percent of the way they're getting the next nine percent ten times harder getting the final one percent ten times harder than even that in software development we used to say this where i would always be because i'm the non engineer i worked at a company of all programmers and i just be like walking around you know eating cashews and just walking around just like hey hey guys how's it coming with when when do think gonna be done and they're like we're about ninety percent of the way there we got like ninety percent of the things done so we're about halfway done you're like great ten minutes and we'll be done i was wait ninety percent done so you're halfway done yeah the last ten percent always takes out at least double the time that you've already spent i was alright cool that's how that's how math works i if you remember coffee i'll go get some like ten years ago universal income or you you know universal wages was like a thing ubi ubi we're gonna you're gonna we're gonna give everyone in america a bunch of money and like i'm a capitalist guy and i was like what if that that's the worst and then i learned two things one do you know in last in alaska i've had a friend i've had friends move to alaska you know they do that they've been doing that for decades they give you five grand oil oil dividend right it's like you get a share of the money that they were making from having so much natural resources i i don't yeah maybe i don't know where it's from and i i believe if i'm not mistaken and i think sometimes it's a tax credit where like you just pay less taxes or if you don't owe and any tax money you literally get a check of like forty eight hundred dollars or fifty five hundred dollars something like that and then the second thing that i learned was i started researching ubi and i was like wait why is sam alt advocating per you u ubi like why are all these like really smart robot makers advocating for it and i'm like shit they know when my wife comes home and like why is the kitchen clean what did you do yeah why are you cleaning up this mess you did something else that's what he's doing by starting uv ubi which he has he has you know i think sam alt along with they'll have a few other guys are doing experiments in san francisco where i think they're giving eight hundred dollar i forget i don't even wanna say because i'm gonna get the numbers wrong but it was like a a a fairly small stop now they i think they did it for like some number of years and that was the experiment and then they stop and i i we should go look up actually what actually happened but i remember reading something that was like not like entirely positive it wasn't like oh my god this is great we this is the program we need to roll out nationwide it was like well no that's not that's not what the takeaway was but it's still an interesting concept to me that i'm open to learning more about because when i learn more about these robots i actually do think i'm like i'm just old enough where i think this isn't gonna impact me but for most americans who are born who are young now it's gonna have a massive impact on their future yeah yeah and so that second concern of like oh wait this is the this is the real version of they took our jobs like hey it wasn't the immigrants it was the do building robots that took all your jobs yeah i do think that's true in fact it's kind of a paralyzing thought because it's not just labor jobs actually it seems like the knowledge jobs are going first like for sure every two weeks it's like oh video editors out of a job oh photoshop the useless skill now okay well lawyers don't need them right this is like it's like clearly the bread breadcrumbs starts to get laid where you're like okay today they haven't replaced all these but what's gonna happen in v twelve of this like of this product like this v twelve is just gonna do the job for doctors for for you know for everybody for for all these designers for video editors for all these things and so it's kind of a paralyzing thought and it reminds me they did this interview with elon musk and he was like they're like you're really worried about ai right and he's like yeah i'm extremely concerned about ai it stresses me out i lose sleep over ai and they were like so why are you working on ai then why are you developing it he's like well basically i think this is gonna happen either way it's it is inevitable my mind told me that he goes and then i just had to decide do i wanna see the ai apocalypse in my lifetime or do i wanna die and not not get to witness it he's like i decided i'd like to witness it which is just a hilarious thing because i thought he was gonna say something else i thought he's gonna say like you know i can use this for good and instead he's like i just rather see it in my lifetime than not see it he's like and then he's like then i felt good i just operate i just continued on that's kinda how i feel when i see the ai like getting so much better i'm like dude i don't know if any of my businesses will even make sense in ten years well alright carry on then i know what am i gonna do about this like am i really gonna go stop the progress of technology no am i gonna anticipate this now and like change everything that i'm doing now wholesale doesn't really make sense let me just make hay while the well well it's possible and see what i think that when it comes to ai in these robots i think what it is it's it's sort of like a squirrel preparing for winter where between now and the next like ten years the name of the game is just pile away as much as you can to get above this certain threshold to where you can make it through this winter that is never going to end and so it's like between now and whenever this moment happens if it's gonna be five years or twenty years the name of the gave it just hurry up and like bored up your home for the store to come so just that way you're safe for and that you're just you're independent and you're alright but once that once it like once ever that threshold or that time comes a lot of people i think are actually gonna be screwed i'm not gonna predict what's gonna happen because i've have no no idea but i just think that between now and then the name of the game is just to make as much money set up your life in such a way where you can pile away all these nuts and you're good and you're just good for the winter that's like basically how been living i i don't know what the right mindset is i think that's for for right right or wrong that's also my mindset is just like did it all time get it all it's time do good all the kids good right and it's like well i but i also am not like blind on about this stuff in fact one of the name the name of my original holding company was inevitable outcomes and i was like well why don't i just figure out what is inevitably gonna happen and then go invest in that because that that that's just a better thing to work backwards from it if you realize that something is inevitable that's way different than speculating of like well maybe this could be the case it's like once you know something is inevitably gonna happen then you just have to figure out which company is gonna win which is actually like you've reduced the problem set down into which company is gonna win and and and when is the right time for for a business like this to exist i i started this steps episode of talking about timing because i think that these single purpose robots is gonna be the big winners in the next cycle here where like you have the knowledge work like l chat gp type of stuff but then i think you're gonna see these specific i think both of those are gonna be really really successful what you're not gonna see is that i don't i think the human robot i think it has to be further out than that this message is my my opinion you know there's also other versions of this so we talked about the sweet green one you know the founder of chipotle has a new restaurant concept that's all robotic first what is it and by the way i one of the inside this week here you guys said he goes the key is not to retrofit the restaurant he goes whatever everybody tries to do is they have their existing restaurant then they try to install a robotic arm that can try to use the existing restaurant layout because it's cheaper right to not rebuild a restaurant and his quote was everybody's trying to retrofit i'm different i'm willing to blow the whole thing up quote i'm willing to blow the whole thing up and he was basically saying like we just thought through from first principles if this was a restaurant that was not gonna have humans working on the line it was gonna have robots how would you design every part of this restaurant and then let's build those and so they did two this year they're were up and running and now they're doing like ten more in the to scale this up what's it call and what do they serve so is it called colonel so now what's his name steve eval steve eval the guy who created chipotle he's got anyone called colonel and colonel is basically like some kinda of like vegan bowl type of concept and so you could see videos of it where it's basically like dispensing stuff into a bowl and then it's like shake there's like a arm that's just shaking the bowl just to mix it for you it's pretty hilarious the crossover of vegans and apocalyptic ai like ai people i don't that venn diagram i don't think it's gonna cross over nicely like you know what i mean like like hey do you wanna go to this restaurant that has no humans working ever because fuck people yeah do that do they sell hummus you know what i mean like that conversation is not gonna be as that plant plant based machine operated baby yeah just got that tattoo nobody that's not a huge crossover but it looks cool so he has two or three of these locations yeah so i don't think this one's like as figured out it doesn't seem like it's as promising but there's a bunch of people doing this just soft bank had poured like hundreds of millions into a pizza bot that i've talked about a lot which is pizza is the big prize here pizza is a a much simpler dish like yeah is there's a single single item it's the most popular kind of like fast casual type of type of food and if you can and there's also owned by chains and so you can get you can get domino's as a customer you're gonna get to go in whatever like you know five thousand domino locations and so whoever can build a pizza bot that can make a perfect pizza every time perfectly circular perfect ratio of ingredients never calls in sick can work twenty four seven consistent it doesn't matter if that thing cost like you know five hundred thousand dollars you'll be able to sell into all the domino's all of the pizza hut all of the chain chain pizza stop shops in order to to do this so i think that pizza bot is like you know the big opportunity here i i'm i like to think of myself as an independent thinking person i like to live my life somewhat independently and i don't wanna rely on other people i that's why i like to start my own companies when i went to brett ad cox warehouse or factory whatever you call it and he showed me he was like check this out we're learning how the achilles on a human works and we just got our humanoid to move its foot like in a door inflection way and like we also like here's like this human need that we're studying now our guy over here is making the need so we can like move i saw this stuff and i was like dad can i come like i was like should i drop everything it just come and join you like it felt like ad yeah sounds great it it felt like i was in a cult like i was meeting like charlie manson and i was like yes sir who would you like me to kill like i was just like so into this i remember it's going to my wife i was like you should quit your job i was like sarah i don't i'm not smart up but when you quit your job to go work here i was like i just was so into it when i saw this stuff this is in and the and the cool thing about this topic is that it's happening this second right now and this isn't far away enough to say one day in the future it's like it's happening now and over the next couple months and couple years we're gonna see it in play and i think that's why this topic is very really fascinating the way this is also the magic of silicon valley like one of the reasons to be in the bay area is you will because he's his factories is in the bay area right yeah it's in it's south san francisco it's just north of palo alto so you will go you will either meet somebody you'll be at a dinner and hear something or you'll drop by somebody's office and you'll see what they're working on and the how they're approaching it and then you will walk out being like my life is meaningless everything that i do is absolutely meaningless i am a small small pale dot on a giant rock and i i mean nothing and what i'm doing is nothing most people that's a pretty dis disappearing feeling but for me i wanted to be in situations like that i wanted people who could basically like blow the ceiling off of what i thought was possible what i thought was cool what i thought was interesting and be like no no you thought that was interesting this is interesting and that that happened the other day i don't know you saw these videos are going viral some people were at a hack down in also in sunny or mountain view somewhere doing like a there's like something called like the ai house or some shit like that and during the hack during the hack on this guy walks in with this cool look jacket and like dish troubled hair like he's been in like a cryo freezing tube for the last ten years and it's sergey bran it's the founder of google just showing up at the hack and he gave an impromptu talk did you see this no what he'd say but he goes up there and he just gets really in the details about google's gemini thing like about like bugs that they're fixing and stuff like that like not like some grand visionary talk he was just like yeah like here's what the here's what it could do here's how it works here's how we're thinking about this and he's just talking to a bunch of guys and all of them this hilarious it went viral because there's a guy sitting there the guy who asked the question in the clip in his shirt he's just a shirt that looks like someone's body flesh yeah with i mean i said with the serious question he's like what is it about the because you know like gemini and i got trouble for being like too woke or whatever like the thing wouldn't generate images of white people and he's like how come your you know the l is not generating images or you know what what's views on the policy of that and nobody even calls out nobody like sergey doesn't point and and be like dude can we get a different question not the guy with the boob shirt i'm looking at them now it's just like a a guy looks like me just like a like a normal look kid dude but he's got a a flash cover and it's it's tits it's a it's he's got boobs on his shirt and nobody references it nobody acknowledges it it's just like yeah carry on what live and let live maybe that's the san francisco away and so it's a very strange place but it's strange in a way where kind of amazing things happen like the founder of google just showing up at tri hack and and answering some questions this is for pretty well i so i experienced this all the time in san francisco when i lived there there'd be so many times where it was like i've i've told some many stories about this where i've go to someone's office and there's just like huge screens with porn playing and it's like well they're just working on this this website and it's and it's like they make porn and so it's just like normal and we like normalize there there's been other times where like i've seen like i've come to the office and there's people sleeping under desk and stuff like that and just like weird shit that we would make fun of or things on that tv show silicon valley where they like have nip and like like i've experienced this in real life and it's fun to make fun of but honestly it's awesome it is so awesome to like be around these freaks you remember when hacker houses were like just getting going i would go to these these houses and you would see that they have share kitchens and like half the time it was like just powder like well these guys just live all these powder they just live out powder so it's all they eat and it's really how started you know there's how someone started those guys are just living in a house together where they're were supposed to be working on other stuff and then one of the guys was just eating only he's like i'm just gonna create like baby formula for adults basically and he's just that became soy and that same guy when like i forget what type of chip it is when it came out like you know like these credit cards that we use now where you touch your credit card on a machine instead of inserting it and and and you could read the credit card he inserted all of that into a small chip and he surgical put it into his hand and so he could just like touch us say so like being around freaks like that it's fun to make fun of him because it is silly it is awesome i loved i love being around that i would see this stuff all the time and i was just like i'm so happy you freaks exist this is the coolest thing i've seen i felt like that all the time did you ever experience that when you'd go to these like hacker houses and and they would be disgusting these guys just well it's just like triple bunk beds yeah healthy but you know like goddamn and i can't even look down on this because one out of the one out of eighteen of you guys about to become a billionaire in the next five years i just don't know which one like yeah you know whose next beard is the longest is like you know who who's showered the least in this room like i gotta i guess i guess write you a check i think i think that's the optimal strategy here like i had a buddy who worked at my company that would just do these things these experiments like his guy quinn and quinn had this like crazy like sci bob style haircut and quinn would be like he's in really in the games and so he's was playing this like little like words scramble game on iphone and i think like his girlfriend had beat him in the like they were him and his girlfriend would play and this girl he was like flirting with or whatever would play and she beat him and so he stayed up all night probe programming a robotic finger and a camera to like solve this like word scramble thing so that he would never lose again and i was like it's like these stories you hear about kobe bryant or michael jordan with like this i fierce competitiveness but applied in the absolute nerd way and it results in kind of amazing things and it's amazing energy to be around i've been around a bunch of those people and i love it and it always makes me feel like the first feeling i originally what i felt is you're stupid that's stupid and then it's like oh i'm stupid you're better than me and this like this is awesome yeah i i feel like that on a regular basis when i when i go around these weirdo and i love them so we gotta also talk about this lawsuit so elon musk sued sam open and there's probably there's a good analysis out there about this lawsuit but i wanna point out a couple of things so here's my frame of this elon is good at p r he's not just good at engineering he's not just good at business he's not just a technologist he's also kind of a master of p r and i should have known this because tesla runs basically spends nothing on tv commercials every other car company spends like billions of dollars on you know like all other car companies in total we'll spend like a over a billion dollars on marketing whereas tesla runs no commercials yet tesla's brand is huge and it's because elon is kind of a master of marketing he's a master of p and he does this with twitter he does this with with tesla and he's doing it with spacex and now seeing him do this with this lawsuit it's the first time that ever seen him do this in in public but it's basically he's gonna lose the legal battle but he's gonna win the p war i think have you ever been through a lawsuit do you know what the discovery phases no i haven't but i'm familiar with the idea of discovery so basically i don't exactly know what all the rules are but i've like i remember there was a time i was gonna sue someone because i thought something didn't work out and and i i thought they violated contract and i'd lost money because of it and i was gonna sue them some guy didn't rack his yeah yeah it's salty has been broken i can't let this stand and so i i was gonna do it i hire a lawyer and they're like alright but they're like you're probably gonna win this thing you're not gonna win that much money and like it's the principle of the thing whatever and they're like okay cool but do know what discovery is i was like no tell me more and they're like we're gonna get access to your email to your phone records to your text messages and they're gonna be able to see all of it and in many cases and this is where i don't entirely understand how it works but in many cases that's completely public record so if i file a lawsuit that part is public record and oftentimes the the things they discover will be in public record and i was thinking about it it's like did i just text my wife yesterday to let her know that i fart but a little something came out because i think i did text that and i don't want that in public and that's like a three out ten on the pc meter like what's the nine out of ten and would i be okay with them seeing that and that's when it finally hit me of all the years of people telling me don't write like offensive or crazy stuff on text messages or email that's why is because i just didn't want that embarrassing stuff to be seen so i didn't end up going through it just for that reason and so in this lawsuit we're gonna see all types of private conversations that these people have i think elon don't give a shit but i think the average joe would including me well yeah i don't know we should know more about i don't know how discovery works of like what parts get because not everything goes was public but not everything no so it's like what what's what's the where's the line and how does that work because i think elon has a lot to lose to with that like nobody wants their shit out there in the public and so but he does but like when he when he when he texted that guy the the former ceo of twitter he replied with all the stuff like can we talk about this i need to reply was what have you done this week like i i feel like in his mind he likes yes he wants to but in his mind he's like i'm gonna say stuff that i want the world to see you know what i mean it's like all part of the game but it in this lawsuit there's actually some stuff that's into it that i thought i found pretty interesting because so can i just like tell you what i thought was interesting in this so he so it starts off basically the whole lawsuit starts off through the document and it says well humans have transitioned from a labor economy to a knowledge based economy and now knowledge is basically getting wrecked bay ai so first ai got so good it could beat the best human chess players then it could find the best routes between two points like best streets to take fastest route then it could beat more complicated games like poker and go and what it talks about is that elon musk saw this happening and he was i think on the board of or an adviser to a company called deep mind and he's like oh deep mind really interesting he meets the founder of deep mind this guy dennis i don't know how to pronounce his last name and he so he's basically like what are your views on ai safety because elon for a long time i've been worried about ai safety and he walks away like i don't think this guy really you know concerned with ai safety i think he's just trying to build really powerful ai okay whatever but he gets pretty worried because he finds out that google is gonna try to buy deep mind and he's like well google has the most data because they have emails they have searched they have youtube so he goes google has the most data deep mind has a monopoly on ai talent and so they have the best ai talent and what the result will be is that ag when it eventually gets done our artificial general intelligence will be in the hands of you know the biggest monopoly they a private company out there and he's like okay that's a little bit worrisome and he goes and he hangs out with larry page the founder of google and he's telling him like larry i'm worried about ai what are you guys doing about ai safety and he's like basically kind of the way elon describes it he kind of to pat him on the he's oh don't worry about that we're not worried about that he's like well you know ai could take over basically eradicate the human race if it you know goes there's a path where this goes wrong and he's like well that'll just be evolution he's like don't be such a spec suspicious elon he's like suspicious he's like yeah you're favoring the human species oh my god yeah i'm human and so he gets really pissed about this and he he says that this is when he stop talking to the ceo of google so he after that that's like the trigger according to elon and again i think a lot of this is elon crafting a narrative i'm not sure i'm not saying that these things didn't happen but i think he's very good at creating an origin story and creating a bad guy and then pay to himself oh what do you know as the hero and so he here he goes so now what he does is he teams up with sam alt so sam alt who's the ceo of open ai in two thousand fifteen wrote the following he goes the development of super machine intelligence at the time that wrong at sm super machine intelligence it's probably the greatest threat to the continued existence of humanity there are other threats but they are unlikely to destroy every human in the universe the way sm could what a great what a create opening alright good sam so sam is worried about this elon worried about this they get together because oh then there's the trigger google's buying deep mind i i didn't know this the in the lawsuit that it shows that elon then went to the paypal cofounder this guy luke no and tried to quickly like emergency raised five hundred million dollars to buy deep mind instead of google just to keep it out of the hands of google and he fails and he can't pull the deal together in the in the in the last minutes deep mind gets bought by google and now now elon is really worried and so sam alt then goes to elon and says hey why don't we create a non nonprofit ai lab to catch up with google and actually the origin of this was to do it inside y comb where sam was currently the president so i did you know that that the the origin of opening i was actually supposed to be inside of yc and he called it what if we created the manhattan project for ai and he's like what if yc did a call to arms and was like hey we need to develop this technology to the basically that we need the anti google like we need to get the best people we can to start working on this as a research project what he said originally was we'll give them equity in yc as their upside and so they can work on this as a nonprofit that was the legal idea i think he said that like no person will have control over this thing that we're making and and said they were gonna get equity in yc that's how they're they'll be nonprofit that how do we pay these top ai researchers because google is gonna pay them a shit time well we'll give him equity and yc yc sees are are huge you know cash cow and so that'll solve that problem and he's like we'll have a board of directors me you elon and then we'll pick three others and like if it's he he says this the like initial email he goes if it's not obvious what the right thing to do is on the five of us will decide like that's the governance idea okay so that was the original idea it evolves a little bit by the way elon replied to that email was great and so sam wrote like a fairly casual i mean he used the verbiage like you said those sentences says that are like a big deal but it was like a casual almost email with like five points and elon reply was agree on all like that was it right i moved straight to the end so yes agree on all so they start and they're like cool we're making this non nonprofit and it'll be open source elon comes up with the name open he's like let's put it in the name this is a open source ai and in the next five years elon contributes forty four million dollars to this nonprofit and they develop some pretty interesting tech so chat gp now gp four it's it could do it like an it's in the nineteenth percentile at the lawyers like the bar exam it's in the ninety ninth percentile for the g the verbal section it's a even a seventy seven percent at the advanced a test which i don't even know how that would work it's like the somalia like the wine test and so he's trying to end the lawsuit argue that it's already ag which it's not but but he's trying to make that argument because his whole his whole legal case rests on this idea that there's been a breach of contract and they breached the founding agreement but there is no actual founding agreement well he's calling the founding agreement is like what we call the gentleman's agreement basically like a handful of conversations emails and then just like the initial founding like in articles of incorporation of the of the company he calls all of that together the founding agreement he says they breached that but it's not actually a a a agreement i'm i'm moron i i i don't know anything about legal stuff but i think that that actually counts as i mean there's been i think there's precedent where that matters so but in this case basically has to establish that there is a founding agreement and that it's been breached but if you go look at the founding agreement like those emails like one time they're talking about we could give equity in yc that's just like brainstorming that's not like the agreement then later they they do have a little bit more formal of like okay it's gonna be profits it's gonna be whatever but in the articles corporation it specifically says like we will open source this you know whenever you know whenever we deem appropriate yeah thanks it's vague right it's like we will we will develop this for the benefit of humanity we're definitely doing this maybe someday exactly what we want and so they basically left themselves like complete latitude to do whatever the hell they want and that's what they did now what i think is interesting so elon says a couple other things so one he says gp four is already so good at like those test scores he goes and now they're developing this thing called qs have you heard about qs no what is it so qs is reportedly like the new what what what there's not reportedly rumored to be the thing that they open ads working on that is like next next level after gp four so it's like instead of gp five they're using some method called qs which they think is like a leap in the intelligence which is really exciting because even gp three to gp four gp two to gp three like those were like pretty substantial improvements but not like a huge leap whereas hu reportedly is like what the huge leap is there's rumors where sam alt came out and said you know like oh i was in a meeting like a we did a demo where we had an internal meeting the other day and i saw you know i saw something that like blew my mind like basically it i saw something that's just like was awe inspiring and i was like what well what is it and he hasn't shared any details this is also right when the that big coup happened they fired sam alt that's one of the one of the rumored reasons was when this could be total bush bullshit we don't know the this is one of the rumored reasons was the the board saw that how powerful q star is and they're were worried sam is way too fast and way too loose lucy way too aggressive and now this weapon is getting too too powerful it's kind of that the idea there so anyways he talks about elon talks about that in the lawsuit that they're developing q star whatever so it's kinda like confirmation that this thing exists although the fun the legal language he uses and all this he goes at the every start of every sentence every paragraph it says using knowledge and belief and basically it's like saying like we don't have evidence but like i know some things that i believe this to be true and then it says all of the claims so who knows it's kinda elon claims a couple other big pieces of this so i wanna read you some some elon emails that that did get surfaced in this so one of the key things that happened early on was they had this dinner and at the dinner at sam alt it's greg ba rock brock it's elon and then it's the guy il il was the you know one of the leading deep deep learning researchers at google and he became the chief scientist of open ai those the big turning point was he elon recruited il away from google to open ai this is when larry page stop talking to him because he was so pissed that you recruited my like top guy and you declared war basically and recruiting him was like a her effort basically getting him to leave google and google's is offering him like a blank check you know fucking movie and exactly well this will be a movie for sure so then google starts offering all of their talent like crazy lavish offers they just upped the ante like crazy they're like we're gonna price anyone out of this market how much you know million like i don't know like millions of dollars per per employee minimum for some people ten fifteen million dollars a pay package annual and so i was like okay well sam and greg email elon like hey it's getting really hard to recruit you we have to think of a strategy here google is doing this elon replies he goes we need to do what it takes to get top talent let's go higher if at some point we have to revisit what our current people are getting paid that's fine either we get the best people in the world or we will get whipped by deep mind whatever it takes to bring on the ace talent is fine by me deep mind is causing me extreme mental stress if they win it will be really bad news with their one mind to rule the world philosophy they're obviously making major progress and they should given the talent level of talent over there and so they basically gives them a green light like i'll keep funding more go get the best talent and so in twenty sixteen he gives him fifteen million dollars in twenty seventeen he gives him twenty million that five year period gives him forty four million dollars in total now the problem is elon the biggest back in the original back says he doesn't own anything in open ai the for profit company and this is the strongest part of his case here's what he says he goes how is it that you can create a non profit company that is supposed to be profit and open source raise millions of dollars from people you take fifty million dollars for me you hire the best people in the world and you you write down that this is your charter and then you end up a close source maximum for profit company owned by the most valuable company in the world microsoft mode forty nine percent by them how is that possible and he's like two things he goes if he goes if it is possible to create a non nonprofit hire people and basically fund all of the research on you know basically like in a tax donation way where you for every dollar you're putting and you get fifty cent rebate back from the government he's like if that's possible and then you could just flip to a four profit when you make breakthrough technology why is everybody not doing that why is that not just the default for every single technology company in the world either it's illegal or everybody should be doing it it can only be one of those two things and i love this argument from elon i think this is a tremendous argument and there's no answer to that question yet of either this is illegal or every single company in the world is gonna do this why would you be we you and i are not i wouldn't i'd say we are fans of elon elon work but we're we're luke lukewarm on him as a human being and we are only hearing one side of this story but in the last ten minutes only knowing what i know just from those ten minutes he's right so then he gives us analogy again master of p he goes it's like if i donated to a non profit charity that said we're gonna save the amazon rainforest and then that charity took all our money and then they created a for profit logging company that was just cutting down trees and that i forced and selling the lumber that's what's happened that is open ai and so he says it is a d facto subsidiary of microsoft and he goes it includes this quote and this quote i think is it gonna become very problematic i predict it's gonna become very problematic for microsoft in the future so it's the microsoft ceo saying remember when all the open ai drama was going down and microsoft stock price started to tank because they were like oh shit you put you've given ten billion dollars or whatever to open a and they're about to like collapse this is bad for microsoft and they're gonna go create like a new company that you don't own that's bad and so then he came out and he said this publicly he goes if open ai disappeared tomorrow we have all the ip rights all the capabilities we have all the people we have the compute we have the data we have everything we are below them above them around them that the ceo microsoft said that wow yes exactly and so that also weakens the case that open ai is this like nonprofit non controlled by microsoft entity when he came out and said that we are below them above them and around them got damn the one is what what a phrase dude this is riveting this is riveting that's me when if i go to chick f a and i order nuggets i'm below them i'm above them i'm around them i have them they are mine like dude that's it what what a phrase the by the way the the way they call this the manhattan project the best that is the best that is so good all of this is just epic can you imagine these nerdy ai engineers who were probably like bullied and were do throughout all the years now they're like oh me you want me no boys come on let's be civil about this there just getting fought over and we're talking about fifteen or twenty million dollar a year packages that's insane everything about the story is insane you're right just needs to be a movie if you're making the movie or you wanna make the movie of this get in touch with me let's let's create the movie of this this isn't is gonna be like the social network movie all over again an epic photo collage or something like that would also suffice too like just like some some neat photos with captions that tells a story i'm into that i wanna leave it with this so da shot da mesh is the founder of hubspot and you and i have talked him a bit he's on this podcast all the time whole he he's doing this thing on ai that i want him to come talk about hopefully he will he told me something that i tell myself all the time when thinking about this which was basically da is super into ai he goes a lot of conferences it like insider conferences he i would think that of he has a a good grasp of it he has said it's not probably gonna be as good or as bad as you think it's going to be and him saying that in a calm like father leave voice to me that's like been the one thing that i've i've been thinking about of like sam alt i think he's a great guy and i love sam i don't know him but it just has like a fan of his i think that the all these guys in this game are also brilliant marketers and brilliant business people and brilliant at the skill of programming and making this stuff but i also think that they're brilliant at p marketing and i have to remind myself constantly that it could be good it could be bad it's probably gonna be right in the middle though of of what the reality is gonna be in the middle and these guys are just excellent at telling their story do agree yeah and we should say you know elon is competitor creating a direct competitor too open ai right like g he has he has x ai which is like his his ai company it's his a i competitor to open ai and he has g which is the competitor to chat gp that's like the product name so he obviously has you know interest in this and i think you know one thing that's clear out of this is it's definitely mission driven like in the same way that i used to think when it was like jeff bezos is doing a rocket company it's like oh this just like a giant dick measuring contest between like billionaire there is like just the last level of the game is you say i i win earth okay let me go win mars now right like that's kinda what it seemed like was oh i'm gonna build a bigger rocket than you but then you read that like even twenty five years ago bezos was like really obsessed with the idea of space travel and like has been a giant fan about it and been been trying to donate to it and trying to advance the cause in that and that now like even with these companies he's in all the engineering meetings the planning meetings every week it's like oh okay this wasn't what i thought it was in the same way by the way it could still it could be that and that's okay it could be mission driven and ego driven and profit driven and that is okay to have all those things that's a better way of putting it yeah like most things it's accelerating because of multiple causes multiple there's multiple things multiple tailwind pushing it but i would say like they hate in me wanted to discredit it but the real in me when i go back and read old interviews or watch all videos before amazon was super successful it it becomes clear that actually was a deep interest so similarly here even though i think it's part of it is he's trying to bog open an down with a lawsuit and spin the p battle in his favor and he has a direct competitor it's clear that opening i wouldn't have even would not have existed it would not have been successful had he not genuinely had this fear and concern and belief about what needs to happen with ai long time ago so you know i think that's that comes out very true in this is there's a paper trail of evidence what a fucking pod i feel amped and scared excited nervous i feel all types of emotions great job like a great first date it's like right you aren't just supposed to like trigger like a adrenaline or like the fight flight response in people and that's like what it bonds you i feel like that just happened to us yeah because except my version of that was like on our first day we went on a motorcycle but now we're talking about like the world maybe ending in twenty years a good job this is usually a good job i've got a court i got a court case to tell you about dinner no we're not doing dinner i okay so you made it this far to the folks are sitting go to the youtube and tell us in the comments do you actually think this is gonna be horrible you think it's gonna be great or is it what dha said where it's somewhere in the middle where it's not gonna be as good or bad as we think but sean bravo you did a good job this was a great put good pod and we'll end it there that's the pod i feel like i could rule where i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a days off on a goal less travel never looking back