Ariel Helwani Is Building His Own ESPN. He Already Has 1m+ Followers. He Tells Us How.

i knew he wanted me out he wanted me out from before i even got there like from the moment the news came out that i was signing he was trying to get me to not even have day one at espn and so just being a hundred percent honest i'm a petty guy there was a part of me that almost wanted to stay in spite of him yeah i feel like i could rule the world i know i could be what i want to put at all in in like a days on a less travel never looking back we're live now so we always hit recording right oh wow geez so me with the the blind blindsided live i like it well it's it said that's how the real pros do it area i don't know how you guys do it on tv but the real pros just go live abruptly in mid i love it i'm always ready so we do we got introduced through a friend my our our buddy john who's apparently your closest buddy and i like i don't know what you know about us and we could tell you about it in a minute but basically like we're we're pretty popular in the business world and let's start with that yeah we're not deal pretty big deal was what's happening anthony pet is a fan i know that yes we're we're not nearly as big of a deal as you are in your world but like you know we're on the cusp of being pretty big and we've talked to a bunch of amazing people we've talked to titans of industry we've talked to billionaires to people who have tens of thousand employees people who products you use whatever i have never been as stars or as nervous to talk to someone that i such swear no i is swear to god ariel i've been listening to you for for maybe ten years i've never been this nervous okay and so for the audience at home the only reason why sam is saying this right now is because i think you recorded this after the the explanation of what happened last time we were supposed to actually do this a month ago and he stood me up so he's trying to butter me up because he still feels bad he was in some villa in hawaii i'm on the east coast freezing my butt off here and he didn't wake up in time and now he's trying to tell me that he is star struck in front of me get out of here with him i i i cap i'd be as the kids say this is full cap right here alright there's no doesn't sam doesn't know he doesn't know cap he doesn't know this sort of modern lingo well i i be i'd be i've being dead honest like we've talked to a lot of a wonderful amazing people i've never been this nervous because you you're you don't take a lot of shit you you you call people out you know the whole thing with brendan shop is is amazing the whole heal wang the whole thug knows i know about it all ceo p of chang that's amazing that is incredible like every one of your guests takes their interviews from the phone while driving i'm i'm shocked you're not doing that i know no every time like they go to me you know like is alright now let's join so and so well thank you for joining us blah blah and and then they go to the shot and they're in the car like for fuck sake you're in the car really why did you tell me that this was a good time if you're in the car i don't know there's just something less intimate about the car and maybe for other people it's more intimate but i don't know when you're at home you're comfortable you've got your little water bottle or coffee next to you it just seems like you're gonna get better stuff but all that aside thank you for having me in fact a a very good friend of mine not named john beard named kevin wang of montreal give him a shout out he currently lives in new york as well i've known him for quite some time when i think you sent out the initial tweet that i would be on he within seconds set me the screen grab it said this is my favorite podcast i can't believe you're gonna be on it this is incredible tell me more all this stuff and more so a lot of people are apparently excited i appreciate you guys having me no hard feelings it took me a couple days to get over being stood up you know i had to rearrange my host schedule and cancel some people and things like that but with with great pleasure i return to do this for real good and and we're gonna do an intro ahead of this so we we don't need to tell talk too much about your credentials but basically for the people who aren't listening ariel you've been you've been in this game who two of the people who aren't listening i sorry i don't the care sorry for see i told you i'm nervous ariel nervous for for the people who who don't follow you you're basically you've been in the game zero six you worked for v you've worked for espn you worked for a a a ton of different amazing publications but you you started as a reporter at this point i would say you're just as much of a character of the m mma scene u c seen as dana as some of the fighters tell dana that well i i you're you're definitely you're you know you're you're as much of the story sometimes has a lot of the stuff going on which is awesome and you've built this amazingly large and loyal audience we're a business podcast so we could talk a little bit about about mma but what's interesting is that you've recently kind of gone semi independent so you work with bt sports you work with spotify you work with subs stack although you don't work with them but you know what i mean you have a subs stack and what you're doing with journalism and a entrepreneur in terms of entrepreneur being an entrepreneur it's pretty amazing so you kinda like have this independent business where i think it's kind of interesting and i think if you are a young person wanting to get into business journalism business media what you are doing and also what some of the other guys are doing biz c sun i think that is the the perfect example of what you can become so that's why we ask you to come on well i appreciate that and i could tell you how i arrive to this point in my life if you'd like i kinda of feel like i'm an entrepreneur at heart but i say that with the caveat that i'm a horrible business person when i think of things like finances stocks investments like it truly makes my head hurt my older brother mark is someone who's very good at this stuff my dad is very good at this stuff my brother works in the financial industry and all this i was always more of the sports fan the creative the dream that type of person however i consider myself an entrepreneur in the sense that i have always tried to do things solo on my own bed on myself i went to syracuse university as a youngster i was the only one of my friends who left montreal to go study in the united states in canada where i'm from in montreal no one leaves they all just go to either mcgill or concord and so i felt like i was kind of you know building my own thing then when i got there i i create you know i i i went to the the traditional so syracuse university in case you don't know is the number one school for at least in my opinion to develop sports broadcasters and they've developed the likes of you know the likes of bob c went there in mar and mike tar rico i mean the list is just incredible the names of the people who you know went to study at syracuse over the years and they all go to this one station w a r to hone their craft and develop a voice and all that stuff and i went there and i noticed that everyone kinda wanted to be the same person i never wanted to follow anyone and so i left that station after one semester and i went to like the rink dink third tier student station in the student center and i did my own combat sports show every saturday morning over there and so again i was kinda just doing things on my own and trying to build out my own thing fast forward a long time i get to spike tv in two thousand seven i hate it after a week i start my own website and that's how i get into mma journalism and i start interviewing fighters and i get myself six months to get notice i don't get paid for any of this i was just kinda using this as an opportunity to show people what i can do fast forward to now and in february i'm starting to realize that my time espn is probably coming to an end and i'm starting to think to myself okay what do i wanna do what would make me happy what's the future here and what i came to realize was i can almost create this menu this puzzle as i called it where i'm doing this here this here this here that here and i call myself independent hell ronnie independent heal and yes i'm working with other people but i feel very independent because i was able to go out and carve up my duties some of it's my own my own youtube channel the subs things like that and some of it is i consider partnering with other people and it's it's been an incredible few months since i was able to leave i was terrified of leaving it initially because espn was my dream i actually had to talk to a therapist about that and we can get into that as well because i didn't feel i felt like a failure if i left after three years because this was my dream this was the mountain top but i was very unhappy and i realized that i had to go back to that entrepreneurial spirit and start building out my own things and start doing what made me happy and be around people who make me happy and people who support you don't wanna stab you in the back and all this stuff and so yeah i'm very very happy now i'm working with v my old friends at v media with the ringer spotify with subs with bt sport i did a thing for showtime recently bed mgm and it's great i've never been busier but i've never been happier as well and talk talk about that that move so you're at espn the dream is realized because you're were kind of like you're like me i don't know you remember there was a show back in the day about becoming a sports center anchorage you ever watched this show oh yeah it was like it was like a reality show and it was only on for like two seasons or something like that but it was great i think anybody who grew up kind of with sports center on loop you know there was something really aspirational about espn you get there and was it that so this can happen that happens with all kinds of entrepreneurs you'll sell your company and then you'll feel like kind of numb slash board like wait was this it this is the thing i was working for this whole time so was it that the dream really wasn't a dream or was it that oh it came to an end and i gotta figure out where to from here so what was the espn side like did the mountain top field like you thought it would feel or what was that like yeah so that's a great question i always wanted to work at espn that was sort of the end goal i remember being a young kid going on vacation to the united states of my family we get to the hotel and my brothers and i would watch sports center on loop you remember in the mornings they would have like one episode that they would tape and they would just repeat it over and over again and i would repeat and i was just so taken by the magic of sports television and the characters and the highlights and all this stuff and i'll be honest when i got there right off the bat i i was disappointed the first few months espn were very hard for me because i had this vision in my mind of what it would be like and the resources and the commitment to you know excellent content and coverage and attention to detail and all this stuff and it honestly it just wasn't what i expected now over time we kinda found our groove and i got to do a lot of fun things and i'll be honest in the back of my mind i was like i don't know how long i'm gonna last here partly because of the fit but also partly because of the relationship with the u and not being able to cover the sport the way i wanna cover the sport and i tried to check off as many boxes as possible and so hosting a radio show i wanted to do that i checked that off doing a an e sixty profile on my good friend daniel cor i checked that off doing nba sidelines i checked that off ot t outside the lines checked that off sports center checked it so i was trying to do it as much as possible because i knew at some point this was not i was not gonna be a twenty five year life i came to that conclusion pretty early on one of those guys who stays at espn for all those years and you know it it was tough and i'm going from doing a show in a beautiful studio that i helped design in in a in in in new york city to a very small studio with not the same resources to then going to bristol connecticut twice a week driving four hours back and forth mondays and wednesday it's to bristol it's a four hour back and forth so two hours and two hours in the same day twice a week and you know sometimes it's you know it's it's you're exact i'm doing a show that's three four hours long i'm mentally tired after this show and have to get back in my car and drive two hours often in the winter it's pitch black like this wasn't very fun and yet here i am you know it's the dream job at espn and then on top of that it's all the other drama that you have to deal with behind the scenes so yeah i mean i came to the conclusion around a year ago well not a year ago now like last summer okay you know what do you wanna do what would make you happy would leaving be the right move would that make you happy and you know i there was a part of you know i knew honestly i knew there were people that probably wanted me to leave you know what i'm talking about people in the u probably wanted me to leave i didn't and if you're not listed basically you've had and you just actually did a wonderful youtube yesterday where you explained the background but basically you've had an issue or dana white the yeah the president of has had an issue with you for a variety of reasons whether he claims you're too negative he says you've you've leaked some information there's always been yeah tension there all of it's wrong he couldn't be more wrong but you know he has his he has his business and his motives and and and it would be it would be great if we could meet in the middle like we once did but you know that's neither here and nor there at this point so yes i knew he wanted me out he wanted me out from before i even got there like for the moment the news came out that i was signing he was trying get me to not even have day one at espn and so just being a hundred percent honest i'm a petty guy there was a part of me that almost wanted to stay in spite of him and i didn't want them to win i didn't want them to win because i knew that they would celebrate if i left in fact when i announced that i was leaving espn i got a text message from an unknown number that's not on my phone saying i told you we'd get you out of espn now i don't know who sent me that text message i have my theories but like i so i needed to go talk to someone to figure out how to get over that to not stay at a job in spite of someone which is absolutely ludicrous to do what makes me happy to to have fulfillment in my heart you know to wake up and be cited to be around people that make you you know happy and support you and all that stuff i had to get over that in my brain and thankfully i did and so it took it took some time i don't have any regrets do do you tell the the therapist about pet about hi do they does it there support all these characters that you have in in your arsenal sometimes she's like okay what is the end goal here what are you trying to accomplish are you bringing more stress but she really helped me realize what is important and what makes me happy and not sticking around to you know stick it to people and things like that and as i said on my show on wednesday i don't know if i end up at this point if if i don't talk to a therapist and i was always someone who was afraid of talking to a therapist because i thought that it made me weak i thought that it it it it would be a sign of weakness that i was you know you know needing help and all this stuff and and honestly i'm so happy and thankful that i got to that point it was a weird way to get there but you know i'm happy that i was able to talk to someone who helped me figure things out therapies like exercise i'm like look even if you look skinny you should still exercise you know even if you're like in a okay place you should still go and do stuff and particularly if you're fat you should exercise if you're in a bad mental spot you should definitely go through therapy so yeah i don't think you exercise up my peloton bike helped me a lot i got one of those i mean a lot of things help me clear my head and i don't have any regrets i don't even have one thing that i had to talk out was i didn't wanna have ill feelings towards espn i love sports i was just watching my knicks beat the celtic in an incredible double overtime thriller last night on espn i didn't want to be the guy who couldn't watch espn who couldn't go on the app who felt some sort of way about this company that meant so much to me and live with that an and i was afraid that that would happen i don't have any of i don't have any an towards them the people there i don't have any an towards anyone there to be honest because they they kept their word they paid me till the very end they stay true to the contract they even offered me a new contract unlike what other people are trying to say about me being fired i was never fired they offer me a contract and i turned it down and i met some legend mike bree doris burke i met absolute legends of the tv business there i will never forget my time and i'm very thankful for the time but three years was enough it was time to move on can can i ask you i wanna ask you two questions the the the second one is actually gonna be about dana white and i wanna ask you about what attributes you think he he has that have made you see wonderful and and and that's what i've asked people about you i asked john to go man ariel is amazing what drives them so it's always fun to ask other people about like the the the people they work with but the first question is the the current setup right now with your business what do you think is gonna be the biggest revenue driver is subs stack do you think gonna drive you know this paid newsletter business is that gonna drive a significant amount do think it's most gonna come from bt t sport from youtube ads what what how's your your business set and where's your head at in in terms of where the opportunity is right now my my biggest revenue driver if if you wanna put in those terms is is v media they're they're paying me the most and that was important to me because the mma hour was a show that i created and put a lot of time and effort and you know just i mean everything i poured everything into that show from two thousand and nine all the way to two thousand eighteen and it was heartbreaking to see it and even though i was going to my dream job that showed just meant so much to me and i think meant a lot to a lot of people and so that's the biggest one and and that's a do regard that as a youtube channel or or is that youtube and the and the the podcast does very well it's on apple it's on spotify it's on google it's on stitch all those places as well and you own it i do not own no i don't own it they pay me to do that show so that's what's interesting about my situation is like some of the stuff i own some of the stuff i don't own but everyone's playing nicely together in this sandbox and i'm very appreciative it it took some time to kind of figure out all the pieces that was the most interesting part of this like it back in in february so when i came to the conclusion that i was gonna go and leave espn and try to do things here and there obviously you have oh i'd like to do this and that like some people call it the chinese menu you know you kinda build your out your own thing but then the actual dance of getting everyone to play nice and be on board with all these little different things that i'm doing was the most interesting part of the whole process and i really luck out and i found all these people like people who are okay with me having my own youtube channel that's completely mine and the subs but also doing something for the ringer spotify and also doing something for v so it's just it's just been a really interesting exercise in look i i i like my friend pat mca here i am dropping names he's like oh well you're not totally independent you don't own everything i'm like okay fine if you wanna get you know into that whole semantics semantic game fine i don't own everything but there's an independent spirit to all this where at the end of the day i feel like i'm partnering whether the people as opposed to being a full time employee with anyone i'm not i have an llc now and i'm able to pick and choose what i wanna do and so that's that's really important but to answer your question the biggest deal that i have at the moment is my deal with v media do you do you think long term that stays true or do you think because some things are are something's things pay off better immediately and then some things you say okay if i build out the newsletter if i build the the podcast or the ringer stuff if i build that up three years from now this picture might look a little different or do you you said you don't really think too much about business you not even care about that you just do your thing and see what happens now are you trying to get me to reveal my five year plan my business plan right here are you you want me exactly what i'm trying to do i'm looking for twenty thirty area where's the twenty thirty aerial doing like the the what what who's the guy who started start the ringer what's the name again bill simmons yeah like you know he was in a similar position as you is sold a ringer probably netted a hundred and fifty two hundred million dollars when he did that i mean is that gonna happen to to you that would be nice i don't know you know right now obviously i'm i'm i'm very happy with the situation i'm really excited and it's kind of the thing that's flying under the radar at the moment which i'm totally okay with that what i'm doing on my own youtube channel is giving me as i like to say a lot of nah nah is a a yi word which means kind of like fulfillment and joy in my heart because every week for now every thursday i am posting an interview with someone out side of the mma world because i have been itching for a very long time and that was part of the reason why i went to espn to show people that i'm more than just an mma guide that i can interview other athletes authors musicians comedian anyone it doesn't matter if you're in the sports world if you're an actor if you're a holocaust survivor if you're interesting i wanna talk you because the thing that i derive the most enjoyment from are the interviews i love talking to people i could do hunt i mean i do a four hour show twice a week now and i i feel like i could do it every day it's just a lot of fun for me and so i've i started that around a month and a half or so ago and it's just my own little thing it's it's me and two producers an audio guy video guy and we're posting these interviews and i don't honestly care at this moment if a million people watch these interviews or three people watch the interviews for for me now i'm doing them to you know fulfill you know this this little you know passion of mind to to talk to other people to scratch that itch but also to eventually show people the right kind of people that i could do this that i could be much more than just an mma guy and it's actually the exact same thought process that i had when i got into all of this back in two thousand seven in fact this past tuesday october nineteenth marked b fourteen year anniversary of me launching my own site jerry park dot com it's still up i was at spike tv in september of two thousand seven i got a job working at spike tv and spike tv was the home of the u and i was working in tv production i thought okay this is the best place for me tv production u they're the home of the u it's perfect after a week there i walked into my boss's office and i quit and i said i i don't really think this is the right fit for me i'm not i real like they didn't do anything creative i'm a creative guy i like to think of ideas come up with things and they were just kind of the middle man that ifc was producing all the content so i walked into his office i said i'm really sorry thank you for the opportunity but i don't think this is the right fit and i'm the kind of guy who when he's eighty five years old i i i i don't want to wake up and say i i could've have done this i should've have done this i should have zig when i zag all that stuff he was very upset he said you're gonna regret this for the rest of your life this is unprofessional no one's ever done this blah blah blah blah and they made me stick around for a month and a half in my cubicle until they found someone to replace me and that was the crossroads of my life in fact our mutual friend john was a part of this process where you know i would we would go for lunch during this process i'm not doing anything and i'm telling him i'm gonna start my own website and i'm gonna start interviewing fighters because i really wanna go into journalism i really wanna show people that i could be the howard c the the the max keller or whatever of mma and so i started to reach out to fighters via my myspace and every morning i would post an interview with a fighter and i didn't care if five people looked at the interviews or five hundred people looked at the interviews are five hundred thousand i just wanted to use that to show people that i could do that fourteen years later i'm doing the same thing on my youtube page and now i want to build this and grow it and and use it as an opportunity to show people but for now it's just like giving me so much joy to go back to those early days and just talk to people about things and then now i'm like last week i interviewed marty fish the former tennis player who's been you know very open with his battles with anxiety and friends of mine who have never listened to my work watch my work ever who don't care about like wow dude you're really good interviewer i'm like yeah i've been doing this for fourteen years at this point but it's it's opening me up to a whole new audience and i'm very excited about that we have a a couple of kinda like just go to phrases or principles when it comes to business one of them is bet on yourself and and i think you you so so some people are like you know if some people listening to this they're not super into mma i think one of the things they could pull out is your bet on yourself mentality especially what it's not easy right like betting on yourself sometimes it's an entrepreneur kinda obviously to you don't really have a job you you know by default you bet on yourself you had quote unquote good jobs at each of these stops and then you said look this isn't it gonna bet on myself and i'm gonna go into pen i'm gonna do my thing so you have a a strong dose of bed on yourself you us another one that sam sam coin which is niches get riches which is that i know you're a basketball fan but you didn't go into the more established field that one that had a career track that you could tell your mom look there's other people who have made it in this field i could be the next whatever in basketball you went for mma which is today fringe let alone back in you know twenty two thousand and six or whatever like nobody was really there was no blueprint or there was no like success stories doing what you were doing i don't think at at that time like you are the kind of the success story of that niche and so i wanna hear kind of how you decided to bet on that even though you have other interests you have other sports that you're interested in as well and then the last one is there's this great phrase which is you know you wanna do the work that feels like that looks like work to others but it feels like play to you so like if i was gonna interview somebody four hours a day i would be exhausted and i think you get a your pickup steam by energy by by year hour three you're like you're just hitting your groove and it gives you energy so i think that's another example of where you you kinda live one of these principles that we talk about but tell me about the niche thing oh why that spoke to my heart that spoke to my heart that's a great line and niches get riches because i couldn't agree with you more when i got to syracuse cues for the first time i life like when i went to syracuse cues i wanted to be the next costa mar albert basketball baseball football traditional guy hello welcome to abc b sports i'm area h hawaii world series super bowl and for the first time my life i realized wow there's a lot of people in this world who are my age who have the exact same dream as me who are a little more polished who have nicer hair who don't have as big of a nose and maybe don't have such a a foreign name their name is john smith and they just kinda of fit that bob costa as mold and i never i never like to follow you know the pack and so i remember telling my parents in september of two thousand one there's the sport called mixed martial arts there's this organization called the u at this point it's not even eight years old and i think it's going to be mainstream and i think in ten years there's gonna be some executive in some office some older guy who's like what is this crazy cage fighting board i know nothing about it but apparently it's very popular who's the guy who's the voice who's the howard c sell mma and i wanna be that guy and amazingly literally ten years later august of two thousand and eleven i was hired by fox and that was like my first big you know mainstream gig and so it kind of worked out in that regard but i i i say this to young people all the time when they reach out to me and they send me you know oh i wanna do this i do that i wanna be you know steven a smith and all this stuff in this day and age you don't want to be a generalist you you you you you you're a fan of the new york knicks you're a fan of the new i'm not gonna go tune in to the radio espn radio now i'm not gonna go in my car tune in and say oh i hope you guys talk about the knicks celtic game night i'm gonna go on my podcast app and i'm going to go to the new york knicks podcast as niche as it gets to hear an hour breakdown of last night's game if i'm a big pro wrestling fan i'm going to go to my pro wrestling podcast and listen mma podcast at business podcast the days of sitting in your car and hoping that they talk about something or listening to people just talk about god knows what those days are over and so it is actually a lot better in my opinion to go into a niche to be the niche guys opposed to being the generalist yeah there there's a couple guys who will make it steven a and those guys but for the most part in my world it's way better to be the niche guy and i try to explain that and and within the niche have your own niche as well so like my thing interviews i told the people like find your thing that was a young guy i always bring up mike bond he works for mma junkie and he's a lot younger than i am his niche that he used to get in the door were stats and facto toy so he would have all these stats but all the fighters great these days maybe it's betting bedding is super hot right now use that as your niche to get in the door so yes i i couldn't agree more with that mindset and and i would urge anyone in this day this day and age of a la carte you know everything is a la carte right podcasts streaming all that the more niche the better you'll have way more success rather than being just some guy like those days fifty years ago when you were a columnist for a newspaper those days are over how are how what what what size or how big is your your audience i mean i know the youtube videos get like thirty thousand to hundred thousand per per clip per video how what do you say the numbers of your audience and what advice do you have you could use us for an example i mean we're smaller than you of like of of your tips for getting notice and and being great at at building this this empire this is gonna sound don't tell me good content no it it's gonna sound whack but i really don't know the size i mean i see the numbers on youtube i never asked for the podcast numbers i don't wanna know it's actually one thing that really bother me espn like three weeks into my time there we sat down and start of like breaking down the numbers and the listening rate and and and the completion rate and all this stuff like i don't wanna know this like it's hard enough i by the way in in the what is it now twelve years of me doing this like hosting this type of weekly show and all this stuff shows i've never had a person booked the guest for me i i book every single guest every single name that you see on my show on on wednesday rose and yan and fade i book those people myself i do not have a booker what do you just dm them on twitter i mean what do you now i have you know i have their numbers you know the it i and i know what everyone likes like i know there are some people who respond quicker to dms there are some people who respond quicker to whatsapp there are some people who strong quicker to imessage i never email anyone i mean you email a fighter that's like throwing you know a toothpick into the ocean there's no chance you're getting a a message back but you know i'm just i'm kind of relentless like that and i'm obsessive like that and i think that i would drive someone crazy if i said hey i wanna get rose number uni on my show and then i would probably ask them a million times did she respond that she respond that she respond so i'd rather just put that on myself now it's probably the worst part of the job and it makes me you know very stressed out but it's just the way i like to do things so that brings enough stress now to know you know completion rate and downloads and subs yeah but but you must have an idea you have a million followers on twitter i think bt sport has one point two million subscribers on youtube ish your videos ballpark fifty thousand to a hundred thousand views per maybe i don't know what your podcast downloads those are but like do you know i no one no one has talked to me now okay i'll tell you at espn when my show with dc towards the end we were getting i think on the podcast only now this is one little sticking point that i have when so they sit down and they'd be like okay the podcast with dc is getting around ninety thousand downloads an episode i'm like alright that's pretty good ninety thousand an episode once a week one hour a week but here's the problem they were comparing us to other podcast only shows let's say the low post podcast a basketball podcast hosted by the great exact but that's an audio only podcast we have the youtube show as well so our audience is splinter so if you wanna know about you know our total audience you gotta count those numbers as well and in addition you wanna get into never listen i listened to you every single time i've never listened to you on the podcast app same so that's yeah so that's the thing like and it would always annoy me that that we were just focused what about the youtube numbers like to me i'm more of a visual guy and i care more about that like the the the audio podcast is almost like gravy for me if you're in your car or whatever but i'm i'm more inclined to push the the video so i would guess if we're gonna use those numbers that's from a a few months ago and i don't feel like we've really missed a beat on mma fighting since i returned there from the video you know we're talking like two hundred two fifty but then then there's the breakout stuff right like because then each each interview gets made into its own separate clip so i don't know man what you're trying to stress me out here i'm just trying to live my life and no you look confused you gave an answer so you think two hundred two hundred ish episode i'll tell you why i think something like that man what are we at fifth fifty or six i think we're at sixty thousand an episode if if you add youtube and the pod so i think that's amazing like like i i think i've been studying a bunch of different people from you know like there's there's there's you in let's say mma and then there's you know i don't know you follow a cryptocurrency but this guy pump and he's like the bitcoin guy and then there's tim ferris and he's like you know the four hour workweek week guy there's only people who build their brands and they're what i call you know solo are solo media people and and you could at i did a comparison once of of rogan show versus you know the the the like the tonight show and on every metric it's like you know how close the you know how many viewers do you get how much money do you bring in how many employees do you have and on every metric rogan just like like beats down the tonight show and but people would still sort of from a prestige point of view they think one there's a television show where you wear a fancy suit and you have a monologue and fake audience clapping and the other one is like you know you just got done with the workout you sit down in in this little studio and you you do a podcast with the heck of podcast so people haven't really caught up on this model and then i sort of broke down the businesses of each i said okay interesting so what it looks like to me is you get this number that i call your true fans which is basically like the number of people who really trust you and like let's say that's like a quarter million people for you or something like that mean maybe it's two hundred and fifty thousand people that that really trust you i'll follow you i don't really care if you're on espn or mma fighting or you're with bt sport i just know aerial wanting and i'll just kinda follow you wherever you go it's like a a fan of lebron james they're not a cl cab fan they're a lebron fan and now they're all lakers fans and so then i sort of studied the model and i said okay it looks like between two to four percent of your audience will sort of buy anything you do like they'll pay for your paid newsletter they'll buy your your your hoodies you know you tell them hey i'm ariel i'm mean i've raised of of of venture capital i'm investing in startups now they'll invest in your fund they'll do everything and so now now there's all these new models before it used to be you know you get famous and you write a book you spend a couple of years you write a book and that's how you that's how you monetize your audience and then people started doing courses and other other different things like that and i've been studying all the different models one of the guys i i got friendly with was matthew barry at espn because he has a niche which is fantasy football he was doing this you know before fantasy was sexy and he was like convincing yahoo and others hey go into fantasy i'm telling you like guys are nuts about this and he became the fantasy guy and he's kinda like he's got a little bit of a he's got a c gig with espn he's got a bit of independence he's got his own like text message like list and he's got his own football thing does he do that i didn't know he i didn't know he he had got a couple carve outs i actually asked espn in our negotiations i was like what if i do this like if i just do the dc show and the jail show but then i do this other this stuff my own and i don't know it just help not easy but i think he has a couple of carve outs for him work for him for him yeah he got it kind of grandfather in basically he's like yeah i get to keep this out i i don't make too big of fuss but if you go look at his twitter bio what is he linked to it's like i think he links to one of his properties basically as like one of his things so i've been studying this model i would say for you i i i i think you're in a great spot and you know if you just sort of think about like the the menu of ways that how does somebody who's got a trusted loyalty audience they built over ten years monetized there's all these creative ways beyond beyond you know ads or sponsors on my on my show i don't know if you care about that stuff but i know i i just care about that you know it's interesting like the subs thing is super interesting because i would say of the you know the three main things that i do like obviously there's video audio and writing and there's there's different components all of those but like those are obviously you know audio visual and and writing i feel very confident in my abilities as a video host and as an audio host i don't feel as confident in my abilities as a writer now people tell me i'm good i just don't feel like i'm as good and i try to be very genuine when i write i try to be myself not someone else and i talk to a bunch of people about the writing component of my menu and everyone wanted me to do stuff that i wasn't really down with the guys at subs stack so i i'm part of this like subs stack pro model i don't know if you guys know about this okay so and we've talked to those guys hamish and all those guys yeah fair bit we like them yeah yeah so there was guy named dan stone it was a great guy he reached out to me and they basically like pitch me this thing where i could kinda do whatever i want and there's obviously this small component of it that's behind a pay wall i did not feel comfortable with the pay wall i'm just being honest i said the saint to him i did not i did not i think most people are are in the same boat as you who yeah come from your background i do i don't want to at look i i've always been free and that that's a weird thing at its own right because like thirty forty years ago you know you're subscribing to sports a illustrated you're like none we we've we've we programmed the audience to expect everything to be free when in reality like this stuff does you know this stuff is worth something and and and it technically shouldn't be free but it's been that way and it's hard to go back it's hard to put the toothpaste back in the the tube and so i didn't feel comfortable doing that and so the conclusion but i really wanted to work with subs and so the conclusion that i came to was all the proceeds that i was getting from the subs i'm donating to charity i want people to know i'm not profiting off of any of this i why i mean i don't feel comfortable i don't feel dude that's crazy so my company i just so this this podcast was owned by my company called the hustle we we just sold it for a lot of money too this company called hud hubspot and before we sold it thank you and before we sold it we had a daily email that reached around two million people a day and then we owned a subscription business called trends that made many millions of dollars and we charged three hundred dollars a year i think we under charged what is going like most creators feel exactly how you feel and i'm like you're crazy if you owned a restaurant and you were cooking every single day grinding eight hours a day would you give that food away for free i can't do it i don't know why i can even even stemming from like the shop stuff this this company breaking tea who i think are fascinating you guys should have those guys on they they basically like react to actually they made this sweatshirt i'm i don't even know what what's their name so breaking tea like breaking news breaking they're like kinda quick on trends with the exactly like let's say smart for example off top of my head jorge mo or nick diaz says don't be scared home me the next day they have a t shirt out a really cool one and they're selling it but they have deals with ml nhl nlp so they're making stuff in real time it's a fascinating business and so one of the guys there was a fan and made a heal shirt in the midst of like my whole thing i was like oh this is great and we split the cause and all of that i'm don't need the charity as well i don't want i don't know you've got this like the money is actually like you know phil the teresa yeah i that's crazy i i i i i love you ariel and i think you're totally wrong i've listened to you enough that i know that you've you know i married into a jewish family you've got this very like stereotypical jewish guilt about you of like your lifetime and i i think that's weird i i i i i think you i think you're totally downplay you know it's funny watching you in the interviews and i could tell your nervous or you are having issues like realizing that you're the shit and so as a fan i will say i think you're val yourself what can i give can i give you a free idea here for for as as a creator no no charge for area you're a friend of the house so here's a free idea for you okay one of the new little tools in the creator playbook of how to make a bunch of money i don't know if you saw this but mister beast who's one of the biggest youtubers out there launch this pop up restaurant and and celebrities doing restaurants kinda benefiting a thing but like back in the day it was sort of like you know it's like margarita or like gordon ramsay you wolfgang king puck this kitchen or whatever the hell these things are but mister beast came out with mister bees burger and overnight he had two hundred locations across the country and and you know you think about these this guy been pouring his you know that that did that take years of preparation no what what's happened is there's these companies like breaking tea that exists that will create a virtual restaurant brand and what they do is they partner with like let's say you did just i don't know i don't know what you're maybe it's chinese food i don't know what you're thinking would be let's just say for a second it's it's pizza mont soup mo okay maybe you went niche again like i don't know how big the market is there but let's say let's say it was pizza just for for for easier there's a whole bunch of mom and pop pizza shops in in every city what this company does they go partner with one in phoenix and san francisco and in all these different cities and they say hey we're gonna send you some packaging that's custom he ronnie branded packaging and only on you know saturday nights when there's a u pay view does this restaurant go live and the menu is themed for like it'll be like you know a mo all pepperoni and like you know diaz burger and whatever else and you or you know you make up your own names and then basically your fans can kinda order with the pay view now mister beast he did his little pop up thing he didn't have to really lift a finger he just kind of said alright when i'll give you some ideas on the branding of what the menu could look like you know what approve it yeah i'll approve it i'll and i'll put my name behind it and then when the time comes i'm gonna tweet out that hey this is happening and today you can go by from my thing and i think this thing is done about over if somewhere between fifteen dollars a hundred million dollars in revenue off this thing i think you know if you just sort of assume a ten percent you know kickback royalty that he's getting on this i i'm pretty confident he's doing somewhere between three and six million a year of just recurring passive revenue from the from his little mister be burger thing now you're not mister beast but you could do something alongside the the paper views and that would just be performing your fans wanna gonna steal that here i'm gonna steal that but you these guys so you've done the boxing thing you know the with the one box yes which i need no money off of as well i know and i followed that and i i bought one oh yeah that was don't i don't think you understand like i'm i'm a super fan i appreciate it and so i would what i would do is the you you went to the new house wearing journal boxer right now yeah i am i would go to the whole hawaii school of journalism i mean i i i think that that that that you guys be my agent i mean these are all great ideas i love this stuff i mean i just think that you could make like i i i would imagine you could profit a million dollars a year selling a five hundred a thousand dollar whole school of like you never heard me you never heard of me before with with this podcast i i did a course on writing how to be a better writer and again i'm nobody and i did i think what did i do two hundred fifty k last month in this course and so you know you sort of average that out across the year i mean these are like kind of like million dollar product lines i i create the course once and then i just run i just say hey the new batch is open next month and then it runs again and people get great value at the end of the the thing i say hey you know you paid whatever nine hundred dollars how much value do you think you got out of this for you and your business your career right and they're like you on average it's ten k basically is what they say so they get ten x return on their money from self self assessment on what they believe they got out of the course so you know i could send a film crew to you right now and we could film a a course on how to you know how to break into journalism how to make it as a as a as a journalist and then screw syracuse the people who really want this all you need is you know basically a thousand people who really want this who pay you a thousand dollars for this that's a million dollars a year of basically pure profit because the video production costs are very very small for this wow this is great stuff there who would have thought i'd come on here and get all these ideas i feel like my head is spinning right now thank you can you can you help us now please talk to me about audience building i mean like i you seem like a guy who like you don't you don't do like a a significant amount like growth tactics you just you just i think you're talented and i think you're you have ten so you've been doing it for forever but what have have for for us and anyone listening who wants to break into to to do what you've done what what advice do you have on on audience building and and and getting i mean i know you don't you're not you're not a whole like a view for at all but you know it's still you want people to like your stuff and you want a lot of people to like it what do you have for that so my mindset was always okay the first thing was you know look at the landscape look who's out there doing things it's okay to derive some kind of inspiration from this person to that person but at the end of the day like you need to develop a unique voice and give people a reason to tune into you right don't be a copycat cat don't just try to do something because someone else is doing it and so that was my big thing and that's why the interview lane i was like oh no one is doing this in mma i should you know develop my own voice in this lane and be the guy be be the leader here and so that's the first thing the the second thing is like it it's it's exhausting you know you have to work your ass off to build the audience to put the content out to make it as good as possible be consistent you know pick a day if if you're doing a a podcast or something you like pick a day monday is your day don't miss a monday you know like people who do oh one here to hear take a break here it's very hard you have to be consistent you have to be reliable you have to be relentless you have to be professional so my thing was you know reaching out to the fighters and the fighters who i reached out to i was very you know respectful towards those was very professional towards i didn't keep them for very long i would them for like twenty minutes in hopes of getting them to come back the next time right because it's not just about this time it's about the next time and the next time and the next time and so i don't want them in the back of their mind to say like this guy kept me for an hour or what a pain the ass i'm not gonna you know do this again and then afterwards very thankful very respectful very professional and then over time you know was like you know developing these relationships checking in with fighters checking it it's not in my world it's fighters but it could be with anyone else if you're an interviewer and you're interviewing tech people and things like that like one big thing is you know i don't just talk to fighters when i need something from them i don't just reach out to michael bi when i want them on my show we talk about things all the time i mean in some respects some of these guys have become friends of mine and they don't feel like they're being used it's important to be a human being towards your you know your your guests your sources or things like that and so then when it is time to ask for something they are more than happy to help you out because you've asked about their dog who passed away or their wife who had surgery or their son who want a big thing in football or whatever and so these are all kind of things that you develop not with the you know it's to me it's always very genuine i'm not doing that i'm not checking in on the dog because i hope that in three weeks it's gonna pay off and he has you know you know he he he's willing to come on my show it's just being a human being about all this and and working hard working or ass off trying to be different putting the content out social media is a massive thing now obviously you can't do a show without having a social media presence and i don't care if you have one follower or a million followers you gotta put the clips up because it's so funny to me i i hear from people all the time i'm like oh that thing that rose said on your show was awesome and then i'm back my mind i'm like oh that's the one clip that we chose from the interview did you watch the interview or did you just watch the clip on my instagram and oftentimes it's just the instagram clip and that's okay it's just about being out there getting the stuff out there making it shareable and then hopefully it attracts more people to check you out and shake you up but like if this doesn't have you know i started this this particular part of my life in two thousand seven i graduated in two thousand four it took me fourteen years just to get to espn and so a lot of people are impatient and they want to see the results right away it's just not gonna be that way how many people first of all i wanna know how how often are you working because you fights end on one at at one am midnight on in new york and you do a post re you do a recapture show often but how often are you working and also how many people does it take to run a content your content operation so i feel honestly i feel like i work every day i don't know if that's good or bad but it's it's for the most part with pleasure like i i don't ever feel like oh man i need a break i need a vacation this and that now part of going back to the therapist i was terrified of leaving espn and then kind of disappearing however i then came to the conclusion hey you know what distance makes the heart grow fond for me and for them and so june fifteenth was my last espn and i essentially disappear till august fifteenth i was still on social media i was still doing stuff here and there but i took a two month break and it was freaking awesome because i went home to canada to see my parents for the first time in two years because of the pandemic i just i really needed that break and i think that that's important if you're doing something you know for you know for a very long time i think it's important to give yourself you know that type of break as well but for for the most part now i feel like i'm working every day especially with all these different people and all these different projects and there's travel and stuff like that there is no real break and i'm okay with that you just kinda find your moments i can be a lot better i wish i could put the phone away a lot sooner at night i wish i didn't wake up and check my phone right away i wish i was a little more present at times i'm working on that but i gotta tell you guys like i feel like i'm working every day but i'm also in this state where i've never been happier and the the work has been so fulfilling and it puts me in such a good mood to create this stuff and to be there for people like there is no greater compliment that i can get when someone writes me and said i had a horrible day and then i checked out your show and it made me forget about my day or during the pandemic i was so down and you and dc used to make me laugh and you know i just got a message from someone who's in australia and it's been horrible there with the lockdown downs and you you know i'm so happier your shows four hours again because you give me eight hours a week of stuff to think about outside of the lockdown i can think about mma and i have access to these fighters like like there is no greater joy than i get than that and so i don't mind it but also you know i haven't him into a u fight in a year and a half march of twenty twenty was my last fight and partly because of the pandemic now partly because of my job and you asked me right now big time fight conor mcgregor return fight las vegas t mobile sold out crowd on a saturday night in july the buzz the celebrities the atmosphere nothing better right or you ask me do you wanna go to your suns soccer game with ten other parents there at the park nearby i am choosing that soccer game without a a a a shadow a shadow of a doubt in my mind like i get so much enjoyment at being at those games being a parent being with my kids but then also doing the work that fulfill me it makes me happy there was a time where i thought i had to be at every event leave my family travel every weekend because i needed to be omni present because what woody allen once said eighty percent of success is just showing up and that served me early in my life and career it doesn't serve me anymore and so now that i'm able to pick and choose what i wanna do and work with people who i wanna work with and do the kind of content that i wanna do but also be there for my family and my kids at this stage of their lives gives me a lot of joy so i never thought i would get to this point where wow i don't have to go to the events and i could still do great stuff and still be happy and still be followed and still produce amazing and and still be there for my kids it it in a weird word i'm i'm so thankful to the man above because i feel like it all kind of like fell into place at this point in my life someone has send that clip to connor ariel chooses this soccer game oh a six year old soccer game oh connor geckos turd it's the truth thing and it's has i just use connor because that's the biggest name he well obviously you know he's been very good to me and it's been an absolute honor and i would love to go to events you know of course like one a week or sorry one a year or two a year three a year for four like i got to go to the jake paul thing that was a great great experience i was just using the the most you know crazy example possible the biggest thing possible the point is i used to have fo i used to feel sad and depressed when i wasn't at the events because i felt like i was missing out i was become a irrelevant and i don't feel that way anymore i feel very confident in what i'm doing and before we wrap up the the content team what what's your team and process the at alright yes so right now you know it kind of so the dream obviously is to like you know i think i don't know if you guys are fans of pat mca but i think that he is doing media in sports at least better than anyone right now he's just doing an incredible job but he has his group of like i think eight or so guys doing work for him and his social media is brilliant because they're often tweeting out things and he's not even a part it it's just like well oiled machine and then he's going to do smack he has his private plane i mean one a life this guy lived now i am nowhere near that at the moment i also didn't play the nfl but right now i have i would say three people who work with me one person's social media one person's video one person's audio and that's just me you know my llc type of thing and then i have people who are working on other projects you know with the box stuff they have people who work with me there ringer people etcetera but yeah i would love to to grow that out but i think the three most important people to have right now it doesn't have be i mean like i all those interviews that you saw for me over the years i had one cameraman i didn't and and i didn't have an audio person i didn't have anything i don't think you need a gigantic team of people to do stuff but yes it would be nice over time to have you know maybe two social media people and have this person who's thinking of this and someone who's you know managed it like i the i was laughing because you know you said you had ben who did the scheduling and i was like man i wish i had a been i wish i had someone doing my scheduling i wish i would i was in that position or i can even delegate some of that stuff that's part you know my problem as well i i i don't do well at del but it will come it will grow and then eventually it be fun to have a store a merch store to do the stuff that you're talking about and maybe make money off of it and not feel bad about it i mean there's a lot more i feel like i'm just i'm thirty nine i i've never been happier about you know like my age my life and i remember when i i was a a young kid and we went to to boston and my mom turned forty and i remember she locked herself in the bathroom and she was crying because she was so sad that she turned forty and i joke about this her now as i'm about to turn forty thank god she's still alive and well and i'm like i'm so happy to be forty i feel i'm way happy at thirty nine forty than i was at nineteen twenty and i just can't wait to see how this all plays out last thing i wanted to ask you real quick you've mentioned jake paul and you talked about audience building and all the good stuff consistency quality hard work but there's also controversy jake paul is a master of controversy see conor mcgregor is a master of controversy and you have leaned in into the controversy i don't know if you've leaned in i don't know if it's a work i don't know if you if you if no actually back no but the you know you are the the number one mma guy and your band for life from u from fight because the president of has a feud with you and brendan chu now has a little bit of feud with you and it's highly entertaining i click every single one of them because you know same everybody loves drop drama everybody loves the fight you know we all turn our heads and look whenever there's there's a ball that breaks out i'm i'm at your clip hit his it's called ask the nose i believe it on the nose on the nose sorry and it's and it's been all about lately his fight with other other folks it's great so tell me about that leaning into that is that intentional is that good for business you're having fun with it you're actually angry what's going on okay well just say i am not banned for life i was banned for forty eight hours but that was back in two thousand sixteen over time there's been some revision history where people think i'm still banned i'm not bad i've been to a bunch of events since then but yes of course there was that you there that happened and all this stuff and and that's all well and good and now as i've come you know into this new era and this persona hi thug el na whatever you wanna call me i've just enjoyed being able to respond to people and i think part of this comes from the fact that when i was at espn they kept telling me take the high road take the high like a lot of people were taking shots at me and i had to take the high take the high road muzzle muzzle muzzle muzzle censor yourself and then all of a sudden i become free and i think as a byproduct of being told to take the high road for the last three years i just kinda snapped and exploded it and i think people have enjoyed see look i'm not this wimp that people think i am i don't have big muscles i'm not a fighter i'm not this but i'm a crazy fiery middle eastern kid who grew up getting into fights all the time while playing sports arguing be like i'm not the you know i have glasses i look nerdy whatever i'm and at times i've actually leaned into that because that's a good gimmick in this world of you know big strong fighters alpha males i'm the beta but i'm really not that guy and the idea of letting people talk smack about me walk all over me dis dispatch my name lie about me it's just not gonna happen anymore and so i don't care and it was funny like brendan was saying like i wouldn't say this to his face like did you guys forget that i stood in front of rampage jackson when he wanted to like bite my head off did you guys forget that nick diaz wanted to beat me up did you guys forget that you know mayhem miller trashed my studio and i just sat there like i'm i would say anything to anyone's face i'm not the guy who sits in front of a keyboard or a camera and says stuff that wouldn't you know that i wouldn't have the courage say in front of anyone says and i don't think i'm disrespectful i just you know i'm not that guy and so i think he said a bunch of lies about me and then i just kinda said something and people liked it and then he kept doubling down and so i didn't go into all this saying like oh i'm gonna come out and start wars with people and start all this beef it's just like now i don't have someone telling me to take the high road and i'm a little older and a little more confident i'm a little wiser and people aren't enjoying you know i i yeah i'll be honest like i i've realized over time you know people wanna know more about me they wanna see me talk about myself doesn't always have to be about the guest and all that stuff and that takes some time you know to get used to because it's it's it's taught you know you're you're you're you're taught very early on in your career like it's not about you you're not the story but yeah now i'm just having fun with it and yeah i'm a progressing fan and i i i like the the drama and all that stuff you could say what you will about all of it but at the end of the day none of it is fake none of it is a work i'm not looking for any of this i'm not trying to get paid off of any of i'm not trying to do it for the views and all that i'm just tired of people talking shit about me and me having to eat it and so those days are over and i don't care who you are i'm going to clap back as they say and i think i'm pretty damn good at the promos and i may not be able to fight you and i have no interest in fighting you but i think i could go toe to toe with you in a in a verbal war and so yeah and this why you stick up for yourself and this is why i was nervous to talk to you it's because i i i fully believe that i i i i've i've first you you you're sharp and you're not afraid so we're at the top of the hour wanna be respectful dude this has been badass i hope hopefully i you don't talk too much about yourself like an as a guest and i hope you've enjoyed this because i i enjoyed it i hope love guys enjoyed it i hope you felt like this was worth your your while i appreciate all the questions about building the business and betting on yourself and i'm learning a lot about that as well now you know with all this llc stuff that makes my head hurt talking to my accountant but i would urge anyone out there who is passionate about what they do and who believes in what they do i don't have a lot of confidence like if you and i i bet you sam you and i go get a coffee right now nearby you are a much more confident person than i am you will walk up there and have your chest out and you're and it's probably because you just sold your company for a few million and your loving life and and life could be better i'm not i'm actually a very shy person a quiet person i keep myself i had horrible social anxiety however when it comes to this stuff i believe in myself and i believe that no one could do it better than me and that sounds cocky but it took me a long time to actually be able to say that and so i'm really enjoying getting to do this stuff on my own and getting to do this stuff the way wanna do it without anyone telling me how to do it and i appreciate your interest in in my story and i appreciate you guys this it's been a therapy session for all of us maybe a little bit well thursdays is my therapy day so i you know i was gonna have actually my i canceled it for you guys so i i'm i'm doubling down here because we were to i don't know you guys know this we're supposed to do this last month and you stood me and i'm just joking i'm not gonna go back there like well as they're best and we call this letting go let it letting it go i'm not to letting go type i hold on to things forever that's part of my know as well yeah i know i know i'm listening to you long enough i know this but i love it i do you gotta charge more don't feel guilty about that that's what as your therapist today that's that would be my feedback because if you are the best you you deserve the best thank you i appreciate that in fact i don't know when this is coming out but i'll just say part of you know be trying to tinker with things i'm doing a think for founding members of my subs this evening i'll i'll do it three more times over the course of the year where it's just the founding members the people who paid a hundred and eighty to sign up so the subs is five dollars a month fifty a year or there's the founding member deal which is a hundred and eighty i picked the hundred and eighty because the number eighteen is a special number for jewish people and i'm doing a super secret v vip one night only no holds barred to zoom chat with the the people who signed up where they can ask me whatever they want for an hour gonna be there team are you gonna be there yes well i appreciate you signing up yes but don't record this to take notes and post it to your millions of followers because it's supposed to be v i'm gonna spill all the tea release all the dirt on all the bad people out there but it's just for us our little group and there's not i don't i honestly i'm kinda nervous that no one's gonna show up so the fact it might just be me and you sam just for the record i would love that i'm sure that sam called it yeah well thanks man this is badass hopefully you've enjoyed it this is awesome we would you gotta come back again i would i would be happy to just don't you know standing me up next time yeah let no bro thanks guys