yeah i feel like i could rule where to know i could be what i want to from at all in like a days on on a road less travel and we have here today the i would say you did both you did both you fulfilled the brown man's obligation you became a doctor but then you fulfilled the dream in your heart and you became a content creator and you are now one of the most popular youtubers productivity guys that people know on youtube this is ali doll welcome to the pod man i've been watching you for a while it's it's fun to have you here thanks so much and i've been fan of the pod for years now it to believe it's been years because i i remember when you guys first started out and it was actually you know how did you make your first million i was like well what a great concept for a podcast and this get you're starting a podcast and everyone needed an angle and the my first million angle was just so good i've been keeping helping with you guys on twitter and stuff for for ages as well so it's super nice to be here you gave us a big shout out early on in our podcast i think you did a video where it was like ten podcasts that i like right now or something like that and that was a big deal for us that was when you go that was when my first million was still a small podcast and i was like i've discovered something there's these two guys you're like ask people how they made their first million incredible stuff i remember when id dm sam the name of the podcast i was like i think i'm i think about calling at this and then it was just like it's so bad and i was like i'm was like coming up with my response goes that it's perfect sam why did you why did you think of it was so bad if what is that so bad that it's perfect well i'm not particularly good at naming things my company was called the hustle so i'm not good at the naming anything sean you're actually quite good at naming things but it was for some reason it would it just i think that we've done a good job of appearing to be like internet marketing shady almost like on the surface like when i go to the barber and they say what do i do for a living and i i wanna cringe when i say the name of the pod but then i'm like but it's not what it sounds like and so we i think it's a good name because it grabs your attention but we've done a good job of saying on the right side of i think like doing the right stuff and having good taste that's i i think i think it's a fantastic name i i i came across some occasionally people on twitter like to hate on the clips and the podcast i think be because you guys are so open about talking about money and there was a quote tweet that i saw being like lol i cut you know what would you expect from a podcast called my first million i was like it's perfect that's exactly what you'd expect from a podcast customer called my first million i i think the name is amazing and yeah i just love i just love how bra you guys are about talking about money love the neil patel episode in particular you were just like asking so specific questions huge huge huge fan of the show he eats to this day i give him credit he's the only guy that has a absurd high life burn rate his burn rate for month was i think a hundred hundred and eighty thousand he just said it matter of fact he's like that's what i spent for a month being and sam fell out of her chair and we're like what are you spending a hundred and eighty thousand on and then he's like what do you mean of course i need that here i need that that he is like explained it oh my i threw my my all of that stuff yeah the that tiktok has like ten million views because it's the whole comments actually just a hates in that for saying that but i respect for coming on here and standing he he told his truth what do the kids say that's your truth man you used stood by your truth so in interestingly just on on the neil patel note i was at a a mastermind that he was speaking at and i asked him a question because our business was doing i don't know five million revenue or something like that and he was like man why are you in the info products business all you can make with info products like five million you should be in the agency business because you can make a hundred million in the agency business and i was like oh but like i wanna a lifestyle business i wanna chill out agency seem very stressful and he was like man i probably work less than you i work like four five six hours a week and i've got a hundred million dollar agency and then his ceo from the back of the room pipe up and he was like now and hang on hang on neil bullshit right now every we have eight hundred employees we have so many people problems he's stressed all the time like do not think that running an agency is an easy business to be just for the record i love that i and i love that his ceo called him him out because you do you know our good friend andrew wilkinson and i think sean and i are also victim to this as well where we overs simplify things and we act like it's it's no big deal it's very low stress and that's not the reality i was just texting my friend austin reef runs morning brew and like morning brew a similar thing where on paper they're killing it on behind the scenes or in pub the public eye they're killing it and they are killing it and it's simple just a newsletter wow it's just a new idea how long can i be yeah and you know what we were bitch to each other about we are both saying how we had the sunday scare i was like i've gotta do this podcast i gotta prepare i've got this meeting in that meeting and i gotta go do run this aaron and i think that it it is not it it looks cool just like your life all you're out your life particularly looks cool you share your revenue you're making profit you're living a nomadic life got a book coming out you seem well you know you know you're put together there all of our shit stinks and it's all significantly more stressful than i think than it looks like what what's the yeah what's the hot part of your life ali the hot part of my life is that i generally don't enjoy filming youtube videos which is love know right yeah exactly there are there are a lot of aspects about being a youtuber that i really like and sometimes i enjoy making videos but i've made like seven hundred and fifty videos to today date where i just speak to the camera and i've maybe enjoyed filming like twenty of them and it's kinda weird because like i i love the reading the s the learning but when it comes to sitting down like you know i i love doing podcasts because there's someone else on the other end and it's like there's energy it's it's more fun but just speaking to a camera on my own like kinda depressing but hey you know that's that's the price to get the message out there and and i do enjoy other aspects of the person what else do you hate about it you said that there you said there's a few things you like and there's a bunch of stuff you dislike what do you what else you dislike i don't like doing sponsorship ad i i this is gonna sound like very like first of all problems because you know a sponsored ad is i have to sort of stumble through my words doing it every which way the brand says that oh you have to say the wording in this specific way and then i'm kinda like yeah it takes me twenty minutes to do like a sixty second just because of all the stumbling and stuff that's that's that's going through there by the way our producer ari honest our our producer ari is like grim because it's sean's is actually pretty good with words i stumble a lot but i you saw hubspot our main sponsor i use hubspot i like the product i own the stock whatever and i still freaking hate reading what they told me to say because they phrase it such a way where i'm like that's not how i would say i don't even know this feature existed so like it sucks man i'll do it'll it'll take me an hour to do about five minutes worth of reach hey guys it's q for reassuring winning time is waiting win time because with the new sales prospecting tool it's like oh god do i have to you sure i have to this or listen to this can't even do it podcasts on the script they're right read this word for word please do not change this one because like we have want we have some we get to improvise and said we don't or we'll do our reads and it's like check out my first million wherever you get your podcast you know what like yeah like i i like go our reads now we actually switched to hubspot like two weeks ago for or rather have started using hubspot for our crm because we never really had a crm for our course sales and rev ops and all that stuff is that because it's q four and it's winning time it's q four it's winning time actually may actually like i did my first hubspot ad read yesterday because they're are now sponsoring my videos as well which is cool it's like as soon as we switched to them they gave us a discount on the package sponsoring the videos they're really good love hubspot check helps hubspot everyone i wanted to ask you about some of your productivity stuff because if i go to your youtube channel which i have many times and i'll be honest when i usually go there i'm like okay he seems like like such a good guy like someone you'd wanna be friends with but he's like in terms of youtube success he's not the the funniest not the sexiest he's not the smartest he's not the most successful guy on the platform but you really win and you do really well and one of the things you do well is you just share very useful just useful things and i think useful is actually kind of underrated so instead of trying to impress everybody you just try to be a little bit helpful like a you know like a friend helping you out and you had this list of productivity things you do you probably got like fifty youtube videos about productivity but you did this twitter list that i thought was really good which was how you are more productive than the average person and i wanna read you some of these and i want you to explain what they are because i didn't but by the way sean for the record he pretty high on like the sexiest he's got the good london accent he's a doctor like he's dressed nice he's he's at least two notches above average on all of those things yeah i think he's not the most in the world right like like if i go on there's some twitch streamers where i'm like i understand why she's doing well this this makes sense to me why this would appeal to people on this platform i i get it alright so anyways let's go back to your productivity stuff so you have a technique you called the daily highlight what is the daily highlight one thing i would say before is if we're talking about this stuff this thread that you're referencing was actually a bit of a experiment i did a year ago where i got chat gp to write the whole thing before chad gp was cool so the first two and rest are just pure it's all bullshit made up by ai and great a a few days i would blown away your best work i thought at a few days after i posted the thread i did another thread talking about how that thread was ai generated and now it's not news anymore because everyone's doing this but like at the time people were like oh my god ai is taking over our jobs and i take over the world but the data highlight is the jet the data highlight is a technique basically you ask yourself what is the most important thing i need to do today and that's it like it's one of the by far the most simple productivity tips you could possibly have but it's so needle moving because so few of us actually focused down on what is the most important thing i personally like to phrase it as what's today's adventure going to be because my whole stick is to really to be productive you've gotta find a way to enjoy the process and even just ref framing something in your mind as an adventure makes you way more likely to enjoy the process it's so true like the we are all children inside and we can use all of these different tactics to make us feel good about the things that we're doing and adventure framing is is one of them so that's the day behind with my kids whenever i need them to do something or like walk somewhere to take could do something like if i just say hey let's go over here they'll never like there's one around they won't come i'm like come on come on let's go but if i'm like hey guys it's a mission we have to find your jackets before we go outside and i'm like it's a mission it's a mission and then they get really excited and then yesterday by myself i i couldn't find my my i was like ready to do some more i have no idea where i put in my house and i just told myself john it's a mission and i got i'm kind of excited i can lie the third grade teacher technique works sam do you do this kind of one high like he says he calls a day to highlight i call it the one big thing where i my to do i a to do list of one do you do something like that or do you a long to do list every day look i know what the audience is thinking they think sam you're this wonderfully attractive man you're so charismatic you're so productive the truth is is i actually struggle with this i i just have it to do list i keep a notebook here and i just like make my list in the morning and frankly i find it very stressful and like not i my productivity scheme is i find very unproductive what i believe and i actually think this is i i believe sean might do this too and i think this is actually maybe wrong of us is i leave a lot of open space and i just kinda follow my heart of like what's going on and i used to tell myself well paul graham said it's the manager versus the major artist yeah the maker's schedule and it's okay to have open space and i find myself getting really stressed when i have things on my calendar but i find myself just messing around far too often than i should be probably the manager schedule the maker's schedule and then the skater boy schedule wording around that you know like what it warren buffett that we made a joke but it was real warren buffett says he just reads all day so i just read like fiction books and like i'm productive it turns out he's reading like annual reports you know he's working actually but no i find my my i find my scheduled to be pretty shitty and i'm actually i broke down the daily highlight and then the next one you have is the hour hourglass i find some of those like little tricks actually helpful but don't do anything do sean while i do the the one big i i call it the one big thing in fact i had somebody building me a chrome extension so that every time i opened a tab it would say your one big thing is and it's just a huge like text of what's the one thing and the beauty of this is what i used to do like i used to do it to do list and here's how you here's how i would do the to do list it would be written down so there's no particular order like i wouldn't rank it by like kind of most urgent or important i would just sort of write down the things as they i came to mind and then i would like it's like if it's a plate of food i would just go for the french fries first every time so i would always do the thing that's not actually the thing for yeah i do the easy one i would talk myself into oh it's getting no momentum and then i would go on a tangent and i would just never get the important shit done and i would never finish the newest everything i did would add stuff add more things to to to to the to do list oh i emailed this guy okay i gotta follow up he said send them the now i gotta make the make the deck i gotta rates i was always adding and it just was a source of stress so i had this my coach my trainer he said this thing to me he goes you know what if you did it a little bit differently so you know like what's one thing where if you just had this one outcome of the day the whole day is a success whether you did anything else or not is there such a thing and if there's not then you're sort of like hunting mice you're just n on little stuff you don't have anything that's actually impactful that you're that you're striving towards but if you have one impactful thing then that one thing should be enough for the day imagine just doing the one most important thing every day for three hundred sixty five days out of the year you would out outsource all the productivity nerds out there i've got these days ali where like i feels like i was busy all day and at the end of the day i've got nothing done do you know what i mean mate i know exactly what you mean yeah i feel bad at the end of the day i don't feel good yeah i find that that happens to me a lot when i have like the day chocolate block with calendar events and that's when i find that like you know as john said i i haven't made time to do the one big thing the daily highlight the event adventure or whatever the fuck you wanna call it and just on honestly just doing that thing make such a huge difference to everything else because it's like you've hunted the big thing and now you can hunt the mice if you really want to because like the small stuff does build up and it's important send that emails send the follow all that crap but actually the thing that's really gonna get you to where you wanna be is generally making big progress on that one big thing and by the way it's not one big task i i don't do it as one task it's one like outcome you're going for like oh today i'm gonna find the right person for this role which might involve me doing five tasks like go through the applications shortlist the best five email them and research that number or whatever right whatever it is schedule a call with them but like it's one outcome that you're going forward what's this hourglass one is this is this for like time boxing yeah so the hourglass one is is is interesting so one of the things that i've discovered about procrastination from doing a bunch of reading and interviewing professors about this shit is that procrastination is generally a problem with getting started with doing the thing because usually once you've got started like you have momentum mentor and then you can like finish you know it it becomes a lot easier to sustain the thing once you've got started and so how do we how do we hack our brains into just starting a task and back when i wasn't traveling around the world digital i would have a five minute hourglass on my desk and i would just be like alright gonna film the video for just five minutes and i turned the hourglass over and i would genuinely tell myself i'm just doing it for five minutes and then usually i'm into the flow of it and then the hourglass time is way on and i've i'm now into the flow with the task but sometimes i would just do the thing for five minutes and it's just a little practical i i i like physical things that help boost my productivity because like yeah you set a timer on your phone but then you see notification and bubble the the phone is too much of a multitasking tool whereas literally an hourglass that's five minutes is has one tool and that is this is the thing that stops me from procrastinate that's fascinating so you're saying that's a fascinating insight procrastination is not i'm putting off finishing the thing it's i'm pushed putting off starting the thing and as soon as you start you're light you know you're it's actually quite easy to just keep going and finish the thing for for most people yeah absolutely the law of inertia it's like if you're you know when i i i still struggle with working out but if i just get myself to the gym and just do something for five minutes and i armed there already i might as well keep going and it's kinda fun and then gonna get the endo indoor in russian all that but it's that first step of like getting you know going downstairs did a hotel gym or wherever i'm these days it's actually just lifting the first way that's by far the hardest part and that's the hardest part of any task because just getting started i i went to this like conference on thursday and friday sean do you know nick gray course send know nick gray he's the like the inventor of the two hour cocktail party there there really wasn't one until he he made it ali do you know nick who have you seen nick gray yeah we hung up and austin a few months ago great guy yeah so he's a character he's like a type of guy where you think you're hanging out with something me and you're like is this a sc are you just acting and it's not like that like example my wife and i got lunch for them one day and he goes alright i have a list of topics first i wanna talk about my dating life and then a at eleven twenty four we're gonna switch sarah to what you're doing at work and then at eleven forty four say sam i wanna ask you an update on this thing like and it's like that's like his real life and it's it's like exhausting up person and you realize it's pretty wonderful to hang out super intentional he's like the walking equivalent of may i have a kiss yeah he's like he he's he's he's wild and for his forty first birthday he wanted to host a conference that's what he wanted to do and so he convinced cloudflare which is a stock that he owns and he loves and so that's why he did it there he convinced them to let him have this forty person event there and he had all these people come and there's forty people or so and we basically just went into groups of eight and we would discuss a of a topic that was like it could have been parenting and he the parenting when it could been whatever and there was a bunch of youtubers there so there was patty gallo whose a really fascinating guy and this other guy i met who i didn't know at the time his name was josh wise have you guys sort of josh wise he's a chef chef the chef he's a chef yeah youtuber incredible youtuber like my yep yeah or more i think it's like eleven million it's a lot and he was in the investing one with me so we were talking about finances and then i there was a bunch of other youtubers there and it was first of all it was one of the best events i've ever been to i met so many interesting people but second there was like maybe conference you ever been to that's that's forty first birthday conference i've ever been to dude there this one time so nick owns a bunch of cloudflare stock and he goes hey i convinced the vp of cloudflare fair to come down here to meet me he has no idea what he's walking into and he goes when you guys get here i need you to start cheering for him and telling him how much you love cloudflare and so this guy this like he's a vp of engineering he just walks in and we think he just meeting nick and we're like whoo is that the vp of engineering of cloudflare tell us your mission and he goes oh cloud fairs mission is to make sure the internet doesn't go down and we're like i believe that we're like screaming eggs cheer and he like convince this guy and he never told the guy that this was a joke so so this day this guy still thinks that we were there to like discuss how much we love cloudflare it was amazing by the way he all these youtubers were there and about half of them didn't the first of all they're making so much money i didn't realize it would be like a twenty six or twenty seven year old guy who's making maybe ten million a year if i had to guess a lot of them don't it it didn't and by the way you wanna know the craziest thing a lot of them they're the biggest problem that they were discussing was like they kept a lot of their cash just in a checking account as opposed to like investing it because they were afraid to put it even into a high yield savings account which blew my mind of how many successful people do that but a lot of them it seemed didn't run their business like a business they ran it like almost a hobby but the numbers were astronomical making a million dollars a month i imagine it seems like you're running your business like a real business and like you've hired like i don't know fifteen or twenty people have you seen this with a lot of these youtubers where they're just like it's like run like a twenty six year old who's just creative as opposed to a business yeah yeah i see this quite a this is like the biggest thing i talk about when i hang out with other the youtubers i haven't met many who are like twenty seven and doing tens of millions without treating it like a business that i think that would that that that's a very unusual state to be and by the way i'm not referring to that guy josh i'm just referring to in general i met people i don't wanna like break in the confidence yeah yeah in general what i find is that a lot of a lot of youtubers their creative at heart and not business people at heart which is why they started youtube in the first place and they have this reliance on adsense and brand deals in particular like i know i know a couple of people with like millions of subscribers who are so stressed and kinda hate their lives because every video has to get a million views because if it doesn't get a million views then their brand deals revenue is gonna go down and they need that brand deal revenue especially entertainment youtubers find it really hard to monetize off of the platform because it's not you can't just sell a course if you're an entertainment you're like all you can do is sell a course on how to youtube which your audience doesn't want anyway we saw yes theory you know you guys know yes theory you know ten million subscribers they tried to release of course about doing youtube and the audience hated them for it and we released our course on unlike the same day about how to do youtube we charged five times as much and our audience loved us for it so it's like this this weird thing where entertainment youtube in particular are reliant and brand deals and that's a very stressful existence and i think business diversifying and operational and stuff is like the way a lot of these guys level up there was this one guy there who had this big audience and he said we were talking about cancellation like getting canceled for saying the wrong thing particularly with israel and palestine going on and like taking a stand and do you have to that was like the the discussion and this one guy was like i've basically created an audience that's gotta cancel me sometime in the near future i don't know when but i know it's going to happen and and like that it was a really stressful a stressful life he seemed like he had he's like they're gonna like i'm am their monkey at the moment and i'm dancing for them but they're gonna come after me eventually and it seemed to really stressful to be living that life yeah a pretty stressful place to me i no one of one of my big things is all about like treating create treating treating the creator thing more like a business because like almost no one that i speak to actually treat it like a business and i think if you do learn if someone's listening to this and they're a creator if you learn like the basics of business like what is an sop and reading books like the emi myth and traction and things like that you end up with like oh shit i can apply all of these principles of business o k and kpis and shit to my youtube channel and therefore i can like oh i can use crm i can use hubspot i can drive sales to a product oh that's cool and you get this whole new skill set which then serves you for the rest of your life but also really benefits your your youtube channel or whatever the thing might be well let's put up on the screen on on youtube your you did this you you're very open about much money you make and you show your revenue year by year so two thousand seventeen you did two dollars and twenty seven cents which was your adsense cents revenue when you got started but then it goes twenty four thousand hundred thirty thousand so i wanna point out here you're now three years in and you were a doctor so you're in three years basically making less than what a kind of traditional full on doctor would would make i think you were like in your re whatever the uk version of residency is some version of that but then in twenty in twenty twenty you jumped from a hundred thirty thousand up to one point two million what happened there in that jump was that you released the course yeah so we that was when we had a whole year of releasing costs on skillshare which made like i don't know five hundred k that year probably that's not four k and we released my youtube course which was about had to be a part time youtuber which is not at all what i'm known for like i should have released a productivity course but i was like people keep asking me about this youtube thing let me just make a course and it was a pandemic live cohort courses were all the rage then with building a second brain and rite a passage and all these other cohort based courses so after speaking to ti fourteen ten david per who ran these courses they basically talked to me into charging loads of money for a live cohort course and then that became like it was meant to be a bit of a side hustle but it ended up being the majority of our revenue for the next like three plus years and that is still the cash cow that funds the entire business basically because more than half of our revenue comes from this this one course it's now evergreen and we've got like a service based offering on the back of it and like a higher ticket thing on the back of it but randomly this idea and a coffee shop of like hey let me make a course about how do youtube has now just like transformed a business completely so that was the big jump from like hundred eighty a hundred thirty k to one point two million then four million in twenty twenty one four point six i think that was the last one i saw in twenty twenty two i think you finished a little higher than that maybe be and your profiting you know the profit margins were very good so when you made one point two million in revenue your profit was nine hundred fifty k so like incredible profit margins i don't what that is roughly eighty percent or something and then you you know you've done two to two and a half million of profit the last couple of years i'm curious of two things one why do you think your course hit when so many courses fail or or just failed to get get the same type of traction is it what what do you what do you attribute that to why did our cause hit i think we got really lucky we got really lucky with the timing in the pandemic and the thing that i would tell myself the the thing that i would do differently is just spend a lot of time crafting the offer like at the time hundred million dollar offers hadn't come out i didn't even know what an offer was i'd never read a book about marketing i'd been on like russell b and neil patel email list since i was like thirteen but always thought they were a bit scam and i was like what you know what could they possibly teach me you know it's all just scam click funnel bullshit and so when we first made the course i think we got very lucky by just the fact that it just happened to hit at the right time when the course made real money was the final cohort after i'd read a hundred million dollar offers dot com secrets copywriting secrets and we've revamped the entire landing page the entire off of the entire product purely based on the advice of what russell b and alex for mo have written in their books and just literally following the step by step method and that was when a single launch of the course did like two million in a week isn't that hilarious i went to the the exact same thing where i'm like russell b and neil patel scam and then i like start reading their stuff and i'm like no this is kind of scam at all maybe may i i think a lot of scammers consume that stuff and implement it but but it's definitely not it's really helpful stuff yeah it's incredible stuff when i first read dot com secrets i was like i cannot believe i've been sitting on this for fifteen years like i've i i should've have been reading all of russell brunch and stuff from day one essentially the the the before and after was before when i was selling a course i was like oh i'm making a course and then selling the course it's like right so like what how can i just explain what the course is basically was like a very sort of un way of of doing things i didn't have any formula for writing a landing page of was just like i think maybe they should go on it me i was just sort of making shit up as i went along and two years later when i read hundred million dollars offers and dot com secrets and explored this world of marketing a little bit more that was when i realized hang on people have been selling courses online for like twenty years plus at this point they've got a playbook they've done all the testing and one of the big mindset shifts was separating the offer from the fulfillment of the offer like the thing that people are buying is the offer and the offer needs to be a grand slam offer to the point that people feel like there are dumbass folk saying no to it and then you can always worry about the fulfillment later and there's the there's something weird about separating it into those two of like oh okay cool so now when when when we make course we just focus on the offer we're like until the offer is amazing and the landing page is amazing we're not even gonna bother creating the course because like what's the point and the creation of the course will be sort of based on what the offer is based on like you know talking to users and talking to people in our audience and be like hey what do you need to know about productivity and then just following the formula for like funnels in terms of like upsell and down sells as per the russell b method and there's a really good book copy writing secrets by jim edwards he's like one of russell like aco and that's really freaking good and i was like oh the headlines really important the sub is really important shit this is the structure of a landing page you should talk about the user's problems okay let's just do that and we did that and that you know final code course did like two million in a week and i was like fuck i wish i'd done this earlier so my issue with the the thing i've read all those books too and i think they're awesome my issue that i've always personally challenged struggled with is like for example in alex mo book he was like for jim launch or whatever business he had he was saying like you know we'll prove that for you spent forty grand with us and then you make a hundred and fifty thousand dollars an additional revenue like we'll somehow prove that and if you don't you get your money back well so here's like you gotta make get it yours irresistible so of course see shouldn't spend forty k you'll make a hundred fifty k and i was like yeah that's that's irresistible but i gotta figure out how to do that and and and that's actually quite challenging i mean it like it was hard just to come i mean i could make a landing page sound amazing it it's actually quite challenging but the course it's a bit easier because it's oh sometimes a one time purchase and you just have to like be like well here's just the information that i've gotta give them how do you bridge that gap between fulfillment and promise yeah this was another big sort of before and off us any of it you don't you know yeah that's when your team's values is just fuck them yeah yeah exactly one of the big insights from from whom of home book was this idea of like what what's the dream outcome like what is the actual thing that you're selling and i didn't really i didn't really have a have a a sense of this when we launched the course initially and i been selling courses online since like like twenty thirteen or something i i just never had a sense of what is the actual thing that we're selling i realized after reading the books is with our course they are or youtuber academy me the thing we're selling is time we're saying we will save you time and that is all we're saying we're not saying we're gonna make you money because that's we we cannot fulfill on that promise because like youtube channels like very few succeed people have to put in the work all that crap we can absolutely save you time and as soon as we changed all of our messaging to hey we just save you time if you value your time you should take our course because we've done all the work yeah you can control the internet and find all this stuff for free if you want if you really want to but if you value your time join our course because we'll save you time saving time is a very easy promise to fulfill because obviously we're gonna fulfill it and massively over deliver on it and also we have a thirty day money back guarantee if someone doesn't like it for whatever reason we literally just give them their their money back because we don't need the money so those two things we save time and we give you a money back if you don't like it that gives us all of the conviction we need that like actually this is a really fucking new product because we are not promising hey will make money do you have a so the business is going well i think in your latest video you're living you said you're living nomadic now you said you're gonna do five point something million in revenue what's do you have like a like a north star where you're like i think the business can get to hear like is there a world are you one of these guys you're like i wanna get to fifty hundred billion dollar business do you have a an ambition and what is it and what businesses are you gonna watch to get there yeah a great question i actually don't and i i i'd love to get you guys take on this my north star is when i'm dead and people are speaking at my funeral i just want them to say hey i wasn't i was a nice dude but be that my my my stuff helped them in some way like helped them live a better life or like i taught them something or something like that like my whole north star is how do i continue being able to learn since a size and teach forever so i'm super inspired by for example people like tony robbins he's got his downsides but like the cool thing is he's been doing this stuff for forty seven years and millions of people around the world say his stuff changed their life that's pretty cool tim ferris have been doing this stuff for like nearly twenty years and lot of people around the world would say he changed their life i would say tim ferris has changed my life that's pretty cool so that's the north star it's like how do i just it's it's i think of like one once you're playing your infinite game which is what i'm playing right now like the only objective that makes sense is to be able to continue playing the game and so i don't have any revenue goals i don't have any profit goals be oh i have a bit of a profit goal like let's just make as much profit as the year before at least please but beyond that i'm i'm i'm not shooting for ten twenty fifteen hundred million we are building like a saas product on the side then i'm a sort of c founder in you know i'd i i like hearing the ideas that you guys come up with in the podcast i'm a subscribed trends just to see is is there anything interesting that i can i can come up with you but honestly for me the main thing is how do i just keep on being able to make content write books make videos do podcasts whatever whatever formats are gonna come along in in the future to be able to teach and so being being a good teacher is my north star so so please please do challenge me on that because i don't know if i'm bullshit myself well i think you're definitely telling yourself a story but we all tell ourselves whatever the answer is it's a story that one sounds like it serves you pretty well so so keep it i would say you know it is probably worth worth questioning like if i just ask to you what would be a more true answer i will be more true as i love teaching and if someone offered me an easy way to get to ten million i wouldn't say no to it but right if yeah so there is a ten million yeah the funeral thing i think is the part that smelled like you know where we borrow from others versus what's actually true in our core like what makes us wanna do something i personally have never been very motivated by like my actual funeral i do think it's a good signal it's a good side effect of a life well lived but it's not not something i would get excited about is like i'm gonna do this because at my funeral they'll this will be remembered you know that sort of thing whereas it sounds like what you really have said is you love the learning part you like the teaching part you may not actually like the format you teach today which is like youtube videos you you kinda admitted that you know you liked maybe twenty of the seven hundred videos that you enjoyed making those but you really enjoyed the research at the learning part that that resonates with me i remember we did a a set of interviews in la where we tried to book bigger name guest mark manson and brian johnson and we booked all these guests and to do what i was like okay i'm gonna i'll do the best job i possibly can i'm gonna research like as deep as i can go on all these people and i went i did i went like i spent basically like two or three full days researching each of those people she's spent two or three full days researching to somebody you have a phd i have a phd mark manson i like i i have fully researched that like i i wouldn't and found he was like had this pickup artist ultra ego back in the day and i went read all his stuff and then i read his first book that nobody even talks about models rather than the subtle art oh great but read all of it right and so that but and i had so much fun doing it i i didn't do three days because it needed three days frankly probably needed three hours but i got into it and i could justify it because i had this big interview book that we booked the studio so i could justify doing it whatever the hell i want and so i indulged myself and just went further because i was enjoying it then came the actual interview and he's a great guy interview turned out fine but it was like a seven or eight compared to the fun i had in actually like going down the rabbit hole myself and actually trying to learn things it sounds like that might be true for you too where you the ten out of ten is the learning and the seven out of ten is recording the content for for youtube yeah i think for me the the the learning is ten out of ten i i think teaching in real life is also a ten out of ten like wanna i go back through my life and think of of the most meaningful moments like i quite enjoyed being a doctor but i enjoyed it way more when i had a medical student attached to me who i could teach along the way and you know on days where i didn't have someone i was teaching i would kinda be looking forward to going home so i could make youtube videos on days where i did have someone i was teaching alongside i'd the time would just fly i i wouldn't be thinking oh you know when's the day gonna end i'd be thinking if fucking love this this is so fun so i wanna do more like live seminar live teaching e type things next year and something we've got in the pipeline my my therapy my end of my therapy session for you is i think the actual north star should be if the your learning is a ten out of ten today find a way to turn the teaching into a ten out of ten and then you've won right because then you're yeah literally just doing the shit you you you truly enjoy in the infinite game if you do that forever i also think ali that like so my bullshit detector was going off when you were telling me what your goals are because i think that you can have multiple goals so i think that i think that i believe what you're saying about how you you how you wanna be remembered and all that but i think that it doesn't sound i think it sounds like crude to say like well i would like to hit ten million dollars in revenue maybe by year eight or whatever whatever and i i and i think that maybe you didn't say that because it sounds true but i think that that's perfectly that's a wonderful goal i i think that like with me personally i i think of this business thing you're past the point where it you you have security i think that it's the same way that when you're exercising you know you're like i wanna run a five k at this time i'm not gonna be devastated if i don't do it but it's just a really fun goal to chase after and i think that's the same with a lot of business stuff which is you wanna net worth by this age or you want your business to hit this much in revenue or profit or users and i don't think that you need to stake your personal or your self esteem or your personal self worth on it but i still think it's exciting like when it's like man this new saas thing i'm working on maybe one day this could make this much in revenue and if it doesn't it could still be awesome so as long as i enjoyed it but that's just exciting you know like it's an exciting thing to shoot for or and i think that's okay to admit that but it's for some reason it seems like you didn't want to you i don't know i'm the thing that excites me is it is and again i it it the this could just be a story of the story but it it honestly is that thing of i just wanna learn and share cool stuff and that focus on the process focus on the things that are in my control has led to like this the score takes care of itself when you focus on the things that are on that that are in your control let me ask your question you you had this story about your the first business you launched and you were eighteen years old and it didn't go well tell the story of this thousand dollar business that you had when you're were eighteen years old what happened with yeah so this was from from like age sixteen to eighteen i was doing some like private tutoring i was teaching people how to do well in maths and science exams and shit and i saved up about a thousand dollars and then i was like okay i'm i'm rich now i can buy my first apple product i was like yeah i can find it it find for an apple product and so i went out to try and find a macbook air and i bought one of some dude on craigslist but it turned out after what it transpired that he sold me a model that didn't work and it was really old and i a dumbass so i didn't realize that he was selling me a kind of a dead a dead macbook and so this thousand dollars that i spent like years of my life working every week like hours of private tutoring like ten dollars an hour to get to this thousand suddenly all that disappeared and i was like cool i need to find a way to recoup these losses i need to find a way to build a business that allows me to make this money back and so i still have the evident file from twenty twelve when when i was eighteen where that happened where i was like okay what am gonna at i'm good at teaching i'm good at med school entrance exams i know how to make websites so let me build a business that combines all those things and that was my first business like i've been trying to make money on the internet since age thirteen and hence why i was on russell b and neil bot patel email list since then but that was the first business i made that actually succeeded where i had this strong desire to do it and found this combination of things that i was already good at and then that business did like ten k o one hundred k two hundred and fifty k three and i actually sold that business a few years ago to go full time on the youtube channel but because my youtube channel originally started off as content marketing for that original business which was teaching courses of how to get into med school i've probably i don't know in total youtube channel and all the stuff around it's probably done over ten million revenue so my thousand dollar loss which was like felt life changing at the time has now transformed into like that ten million kind of upside and i feel kinda like that's kinda cool like at the time i thought to myself i'm gonna find a way to turn this thousand dollar loss into a really good opportunity and that was when that first business really really started and and took off sam have ever had that have you ever had like a big l that's turned that what felt like a big l in the moment that turned into a a w my whole thing was like just growing up where like my parents controlled money and where it was like you you're not allowed to do this or you know like when your parents say like well if you're living under my roof you're gonna do this and i there's been many times where i was like at a very young age i was like alright fine money equals power then and then basically everything that i've done since then has been because my parents probably because i said no to me a handful of times and i said alright then i'm gonna be completely free and money is one way to achieve that freedom so yeah yeah i mean it all stems basically every great business person i think probably stems from some type of childhood trauma whether it's your parents selling you know or you see your mother be poor or you get scammed out of a macbook when we sold no road i asked the guys i was like man you guys have been just been doing different businesses for so long and they had a pretty interesting track record like small wins big wins shit like that and i was like what's the driver because like know once you if you bank a hundred million dollars and you're still taking risk starting businesses like you're not doing it for the money i don't believe and i was like what's the driver or like what's and then he's like i know what it is now he's like but for a long time he's like both of them had the same story and it wasn't like this wasn't on the podcast this wasn't to look cool this was like us hanging out and he said it a matter of fact he's like yeah this girl rejected me when i was like fourteen years old and he's like i sick i literally felt like shit and i was like okay like i don't wanna be rejected again how do i make myself awesome and he's like i didn't know what the answer was but i immediately started a be like oh i'm if i'm if i'm okay at this i'm good at this i'm gonna become awesome at this instead and so he's like i was good at like the internet making websites stuff like that and i just like went into overdrive and he's like the other guy had the same stories he's like yeah i lived this he's like i had six friends and in college and they had we wanted to live off campus together and they got a house that only had five rooms and i was the odd man out and i was just like fuck these guys i'm gonna okay i'm gonna go live him my by myself but i'm gonna like i'm gonna go into the hole and i'm gonna come out a different guy what's sean because you seem like you've had your act together i mean you've seen emotionally stable yeah i've had a few things like this probably not like not like some huge disrespect nothing thought i was that aware of but i do remember like i remember hearing this story so i went to this i got into this random accelerator that i don't know if it exists anymore anywhere was called the mass challenge and they used to invite these speakers in was in massachusetts and one time was at this this event they had and ben from ben and jerry's was there and he told the story about ben about the starting story of ben and jerry's there's all these like interesting funny things like he starts off being like yeah i met jerry because we were both like in pe class and i was like you know the people like you guys get along right away like no but we were both the fat kids so like we would have to run the mile every day and we were just walking at the back and like first we didn't talk for the first two weeks and finally was like alright up man like you know you again and so they became friends that way and he talks about like you know they start this they they take this five dollar could he one of them was trying to get into med school and he failed the entrance exam five or six times in a row so like you know he basically for several years couldn't get into med school and so they instead took a five dollar ice cream making course together and that's like you know part of how they learned out of my ice shooting for ben jerry's so they opened up the shop and it wasn't like pint like you see today it was a shop but it was in vermont in the freezing cold winter and so they're about to go out of business like in month three because nobody wants ice cream when it's already they snowing outside like a blizzard outside and so they you know they they're alright what do we do we're screwed so what do we do and they had this up they came with this promotion it's like this long acronym like nine letters long and it stood for one cent off per degree celsius under you know freezing or whatever and so you got like twelve cents off if it was twelve below freezing and so they and that like that promotion was funny people liked it so they like came and like pity them and basically bought bought the ice cream took them through the winner so then they were like still struggling and they started the strategy of like making pint they're like let's go to restaurants and give them the pint because otherwise just gonna melt here nobody's coming to our shop and eventually they get into corner stores and they start selling and finally the business is working and they're like oh my god this is great we sell we sell pint to these corner stores and they sell our product for us this is a good business and then one day like they stopped getting orders from like a whole area in and where they lived and they were like what the hell happened they go and they talk to the store and they like oh guys i didn't wanna tell you this but you know i got word from a big ice cream he's like what he's like yeah h da came to us and h da which is owned by pills pills sent us this letter said i don't know who there's ben in jerry's is but like you need to stop selling their stuff only sell h da or we're pulling all pills products from your shelves he's i can do that he's like i need my crescent rolls i can't do i can't do this guys i'm so sorry and so the guys are like shit or screwed but they had this value which was like turned the disadvantage into an advantage and so they were like alright how can we use this and so they created this whole campaign called what's the do boy afraid of and they would put they would print these posters that were like the pint of ben jerry's with the giant like dope pills do hands about to strangle it and they would just say what's a do afraid of and then on every pint of ice cream they sold they said we're under attack call this number to hear the story about what's going on why pills is trying to put out your favorite ice cream brand and then they recorded like a answering machine that would just tell the three minute story and say like if you think this is screwed up by these stickers and buy an pipe to ice cream just a you know show pills you won't you won't be a bullied and eventually the new yorker takes the story and you know jerry standing outside of pills a headquarters by himself picket as if he's a protest and they take this picture they run this in the new yorker and pills has to like completely back off because it looks terrible for them as you know as a brand to be doing this and secondly a whole bunch of people found out about ben jerry's that didn't know about it before because this story was a lot more interesting than just here's a cool ice cream brand started with these two hippie in vermont and so then they exploded in sales into that they became successful and remember hearing that and so everything that would happen in our first business like we were you know twenty years old basically trying to start the sushi chain everything that would happen we get rejected or get a cease and desist letter or whatever it was we're were like this is our pills is very moment alright what's the afraid of how do we flipped this and so very quickly it it went from like anything that was bad we got hype because there's like this could be our story that we're telling someday and that just became like embedded in my mind and so i almost don't even remember the individual like kinda like rejection moments because it was all like alright how are we gonna use this to go viral how are we gonna use this to to our advantage and that's just like i don't know what i've been doing for like fifteen years cents by the way ali welcome to my life so i asked on a question it tells me this amazing story where i'm totally ent i was into it he does such a good job of telling the story and i'm like i don't even know what to say i'm i'm interested like yeah i like saw down this but i'm like i didn't remember what i asked but like yeah what else you got it keep keep telling me tell me another well i wanna learn to you ali i wanna learn about titles so i think that one of the reason your course does so well is that it's not called you know how to be how to you know be famous on youtube it's called the part time youtuber academy and part time i think just appeals to a whole different segment of people and i always think about these choices because when you see the title what you don't see is the fifty other options that were considered and i think about this with like your entire channel like i go to your youtube channel right now and i i let's say popular right you know some of your titles are just really good you how i type really fast all caps and then hundred fifty six words per minute or how i ranked first at cambridge university the essay and your the thumbnails you're holding up like this notebook that looks like it's got you know the secret instructions inside or my evidence based care routine so even though i said you were the most beautiful guy you got good skin and you but saying my evidence based care routine is so different than just saying my care routine i'm curious what's your method madness i'm getting good at titles or how you come up with the stuff yeah thanks we think a lot about titles what we found basically is that the only thing that allows us to predict the performance of a video is just the title it's not even the thumbnail some people like thumbnail but like in in an educational channel my thumbnails look broadly similar it's it's very rarely the thumbnail it just tends to be the title if we know that if the title is good then by default the content is gonna be at least reasonable and useful that's the main thing like is this useful and so the video is gonna fly or flop based on the performance of the title how do you know the title will be good though but by the way that's the same you know offer separating the offer from the delivery of the of the offer is the same principle right exactly it was the same thing for the book you know we it it took like about a hundred iterations to land on feel good productivity as like the thing we had i've still got my apple notes file with like hundreds of title options trying to get at this idea of like being productive in a nice fun joyful sort of way and the title actually came to me in the shower like two years into the journey of writing the book on just on that note one thing i would do differently next time is any feature book that i write i would make sure i've got the title nailed before trying to write the book because the title informs the concept and the hook which informs everything else and there was so much like surgery we had to do on the book once we came up with that title to be like oh okay that's the title so now let's reject everything in the book to make sure it like matches the promise you know the the offer the title and the thumbnail of of the book but when it comes to youtube videos we just do a lot of iteration like he's like how do you know a good title from a bad like when you're when you're trying to decide what what are your obviously it's just a judgment call over time you get a bunch of intuition but is there anything you do or anything that led you to be better at titles yeah we do a lot we we have the strategy that we acutely called viral replication which is that both the the way you grow a youtube channel is by getting a viral video and the easiest way to get a viral video is to just copy the title of another video that's already gone viral so a lot of our best titles have been just looking around on youtube sometimes within ar niche sometimes outside of ar niche and looking at the view to subscriber ratio of that particular video so like back in the day i saw some guy may made a video like how i use my ipad as an engineering student i was like okay interesting but that video had like two million views and the dude had like twenty thousand subscribers i was like that's that's interesting there's something about that title that's really popped so i thought how i use my ipad as a medical student sounds cool so i made that video and that was the first video on the channel end viral i got to over a million views i was like yeah for this views and it's how i take notes on my ipad pro in medical schools is that the one yeah that's the one and that was the third that here into my channel yeah are you using software to help you do this or you just browsing we're browsing we're using vid q the chrome extension which shows us the subscriber count of the channel just next to their name because the way you have to click on it and see what the subscriber account is we've also now started becoming more sophisticated with ab b testing titles and thumbnails so we use thumbnail test dot com which is made by one of our twitter friends to just test the shit out of the back catalog and that generates a bunch of free views basically every day because we can refresh an old video that's like three years old by just giving it a new title or a new thumbnail there's a lot of like repeating that process over over again before landing on a title we often have like twenty titles to choose from and sometimes if we're really not sure we'll like test it on twitter and on instagram and on youtube community post we'll say hey which of these four titles would you be more likely to click on and often there's like a clear winner and we're like okay cool let's just do that and we make sure we don't even think about writing the video until we have nailed the title because obviously like the the framing of the title and thumbnail radically informs the way you can do the video i producer her by way i just saw to look down she's like taking notes on how we can improve our channel what's the what's the software bit you're fooling around with because i bet you've seen a lot of interesting creators launch call businesses i bet you've had a lot of opportunities run by you why did you sell this one and what is it yeah so this is we're actually launching like this week it's called voice and it's like a an an a voice notes meets ai transcription meets converting your voice note into like a summary which you can then turn into a tweet thread or linkedin post or a journal entry or whatever you want it's not launched yet voice dot me for whenever people are are listening to this it will have been launched by then this is an idea i've i've kind of had floating in the back of my mind partly thanks to listening to your guys pod for a few years which is that creators have a massive distribution advantage but do not know how to make products product people know how to make products but really struggle with distribution so in theory if you can combine those two things if you can pair a creator with a product that fits their audience nicely now you're winning because the product guy makes a product in the creator has has the distribution and so i partnered up with a friend of mine who's a second time founder he's exited like to well the third time founder he's exited two companies and he was like hey we should totally build some cool productivity software together and i was like yes we absolutely should and so the first idea that we're launching is this thing called voice which is like yeah you record a voice note and it transcribe it and it turn it into whatever whenever you want and we're trying to figure out like the messaging around this like double your productivity using your voice something to that something to that effect and we're i'm gonna be launching this week for our thousand beta testers and i'll post you on twitter and linkedin and the newsletter and hopefully we'll just get those thousand people very quickly how much you charge yeah we're thinking like ten dollars a month initially we've already got like twenty paying users from the alpha friends and family test that we did where we sort of found thirty people like twenty of them were like super super power users and almost all of them converted to paid when pablo the c founder reached out to them to be like hey would you like to buy early access to this and a lot of people are using it already for like journalists and like lawyers and stuff for like recording deposition and and things like that a bunch of people are using it for journal as well so one thing that i'm really bullish on is like you know to your point about wouldn't it be cool to get ten million revenue i think the way we get there is i don't try and get there through content but we try and get there through building cool software products on the side that i that i use personally that i would like i would fucking love a journal app that does this i'd love her to do this app that's different to things and to do this by doing i think that's so smart and then we plug it to audience i think that's i think i i i think i would agree with that theory you're not gonna get to where you wanna go by doing the content revenue itself have you guys seen the app opal so it's opal dot s o it's like no man you guys gotta check this out so op dot s o so it says find your focus make the most of every day with the world's greatest screen time software so the problem with iphone software is that you know like the screen time thing you can just click like bypass or whatever so somehow these guys made it to where i can't bypass so between eight or nine and six pm i cannot go on social media on my phone and they've done it in such a way that like i i literally can't bypass it and it's like a hundred and twenty dollars they've got a crazy amount of reviews and i think that what i think is gonna happen is i think i i think there's already a lot of these but these like screen time focus session app apps i think historically have done pretty good so there there's a few ones for the past couple years there's chrome plugins ins for this but this one in particular is the only one that's stuck with me i don't i have no idea who these guys are this is like a promotion i just i just thought it was cool i could see you launching something like this i think they charge two hundred dollar three hundred dollars for a lifetime license and then a dollars a year but i really like like if i'm you i would look at what are the most what are the best apps out there for productivity who's spending the most on advertising and how do i acquire a small part of their company or launch something similar because i don't have to my margin will be their advertising budget yeah that is like exactly the way we're thinking we're we're we're sort of thinking about it as a sort of barbell strategy where there there's a couple of companies that i've invested in to get like a small equity stake in in the company rise is one of them are i z they're are like another focused time tracking e type thing that been using for like two years and so that we we invested in them but we invested sponsorship dollars so like however much it was like four sponsorships worth of investment into the company and it's great because i use it every day i love it it's easy to recommend and when i say i've invested in the thing is like people like oh like you liked it so much he actually invested in it so that's for a small equity stake and then on the other side we're trying to do these sort of c founding software product for like a twenty or thirty percent equity stake so i'm trying to trying to experiment with both but i'm particularly bullish on like building our own shit because i think that's where i get to mold the direction of the product in a way that personally suits me and one of the cool things about that is like what what i love trying to find is apps where apps where i can share a screenshot of the thing which promotes the app without it looking like a promotion so for example whenever i do a workout i use the app strong and i just screenshot and post on instagram story and i will always get like dozens of comments being like what app is that right i annoys me because i'm like this is an app i don't own and it's just really good but if i did own the app strong or a workout tracker and was just posting screenshots on my workouts no one would think i'm plugging a product they would think oh he's sharing screenshots of his product right so i'm i've always looking for these organic promotional opportunities that don't look like they're that that that don't look like they're like another one is script sc is that what's it's called i know you love that app that writing app which i think it's just like a guy in like montana or something like you know a little bit random like that who owns that writing tool but you should acquire stakes in these businesses or launch some of their own and i think you'd be very successful at that yeah yeah one thing i've i'm thinking a lot is that with a lot of these productivity apps they tend they tend not to be differentiated on the product itself like fundamentally all to do list apt to do the same thing and when you watch reviews of them it's like oh well things three has slightly nicer animations and to do it has like teams and this one is available on ipads so you should get that it's like the the the product features that just that differentiate these are so small so if we could in theory just clone one of these with in our own way in our own design language whatever and we've got feature parity on the product side we will have a distribution advantage and the market for these productivity apps is so huge that like you know a few users would be would be pretty good how many users to let's say if you owned sc or opal how many users could a handful of your videos drive do you think probably thousands to tens of thousands based on what the users offer that we drive to like skillshare and brilliant and these are there like response type things if there's a girl with the audience then yeah there was a time where sean brought some company that does accounting or his taxes on the pod and then afterwards he asked he like i don't think sean you didn't have any he didn't he had no stake he was just like i just met this a guy and it was cool and i ended up using the product and it was interesting here's what it was and then he like holler at them two weeks later i was like do you see a bump and the guy was like raving you know i i don't know what numbers i'm allowed to say or not but sean you could decide if you wanna say it or not but it was like a substantial sum you and then that the call was booked out like four months or i don't know if they didn't have a lot of slots or what happened but like that was that was great for them when when that happened yeah but then we both got a light bulb moment and we're like yeah oh if there's something there you know what i mean now of course you have to pick and choose which ones you do and you can't do too many at one time you probably should only do one at a time for a certain amount of time but yeah like we had that same moment as well so one thing that we did we so we recently launched well recently a a few months ago a studio called hay friends which is like done with tahoe yeah with hunter title oh yeah because like you you you guys are working with them as well and one tweet for me and yeah just like one tweet drove two million mr r worth of leads that there's still like going through the sales calls and like trying to shore of capacity because there's so many fourteen thousand mr what was yeah wow okay that's a were like literally a hundred hundreds of people that signed up for a fourteen thousand a month sales call and they were like shit like we can only onboard like one or two people a month because we need to hire editors and script writers and all this kind of stuff and it was just like one tweet and twitter is isn't even on a platform but i guess it's where people with peep the people like you guys are more likely to read a tweet of mine than watch a video so if i'm like hey got this fifteen k a month youtube as a service thing it's like that drove so many leads and we're like oh that's that's interesting and sean and past we did this thing i think two years ago sean we're or maybe you me know maybe a year ago we're we were like okay so we understand how there's these billion dollar businesses built on instagram and that that's been done maybe a couple times with the kardashians and a handful of other people it's very plausible that it's happening or has already happened with youtube mister beast and there's whoever you know there's many more that have built businesses that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars maybe even more on youtube it hasn't happened yet with twitter and our prediction was like this is gonna happen more and the reason it's gonna more is because a there's a business audience on twitter a bit more than those other platforms so you can sell higher priced things and b the conversion is quite high so like i don't know how what the click rate on your video so how many people click a link to to your products it probably is less than one percent on twitter it's not crazy that to be five percent at time so you post a link and five percent of people click it and like wow we can just drive way more traffic to a website it hasn't happened yet i think it's in the process of happening hopefully sean and i and a couple of our friends are are en route to doing that but i think it's gonna happen in the like five it's here in twitter famous right like i can i i can go on youtube in instagram and i know like oh i don't know who charlie demi emilio is but i know that that's a person that's tiktok famous like started on that platform got huge on that platform has a huge fan based on that platform you could say dan bi and others were doing that on instagram when instagram first came out and on youtube you had you know whoever the tons tons of people mister beast and others i don't know who that would be on twitter like who the hell is twitter famous like saw hill maybe sci hills our friend saw the most twitter famous guy that make that's the biggest like no offense saw hills sounds great but like shouldn't it be a famous person like or shouldn't there be like the whoever you know like like mister beast is like massive pewdiepie was massive these were like massive massive creators who is that on twitter i even know like is there and i'm on twitter all the you i'm i guess you or our friends i don't i don't know it can't be the i think i think it also really why does it not have that that's insane i think it also really depends on what audience you're going up like normal people have never heard of style bloom the only people who have are people who are in are sort of like business that's what saying so who's like you know on instagram it was like beautiful people went that they were the mass market famous people right and then on youtube it's like the funny vlogger types on twitch it was twitter fortnite player in the world alright fortnite super popular makes sense that ninja is super popular and doctor disrespect these guys shroud whoever i don't even know who those people are on twitter who is like like i say elon is he the only guy who is like or train it on twitter oh yeah trump like on they're famous they were kind this off twitter which is why they're big on twitter like is there anybody uses this natively so good at tweeting that they just got huge because if not something is broken about this platform but it's not broken my point is that it's small it's small so how many how many users does twitter have i don't know three or four hundred million yeah yeah a fraction compared to what the other platform have so it's just small and also it's text based so it's a little bit less exciting so like and you don't exactly see like the view count like you do in youtube so i see ollie video that has six million views and i'm like oh many other people know this person i'll see a tweet just randomly through my my feed and i don't it's more one to one versus one to many so i don't know that other people are people are consuming it but that's okay it's no it's there is no famous people but that's okay you i think you could still build a big business because there's people like ali or you or i on there who will spend more money twitter's is like twenty years old it's if it's not big now it's never getting big like it's a twenty year old product there's three hundred million people what like who's more than ten million followers is like who who is not already famous like trump and elon take them out that has more than ten million followers organic i don't know like i know video accounts that got popular right like you know that's insane to me maybe it's like a couple yeah there's maybe some of these like crazy you know like f jerry like is there even like an f jerry type of account on twitter i don't know i don't think so other is somebody who knows is just yelling at their podcast player right now like why aren't they saying blah blah so we're all friends with the most famous going twitter a style blue yeah congrats saying yeah and what is the you say a a dwarf amongst smidge like yeah that's basically what's going on here like well and and the only reason he's famous is because he's indian so he has a billion potential fans and he's ripped so he's already gonna track all the dudes by the way it's never women that are attracted to the ripped dudes so these other men like me who's the a rip guy and he like talks about so he's got this all angle so he's like this he's he's a triple assassin so he's he gets follows and he's not indian he's also happy video so he's super hot also he's like yeah he's in combination thing dude he had all these accent it'd be over yeah if he had a british or a a lot accent and was sounded at all proper he's he he's got it all he's he'd be a he he had everything ollie thanks for doing this man the name of the book and what does it feel good productivity it's coming out and january or december twenty six right yeah december twenty sixth feel good productivity it's about a little bit more of a robust to you in a way that's great right joined meaningful sustainable yeah yeah did you not know that most gifts are bought literally three days before that exactly shit good point my transformation date for the president those was there was this whole like astrology that the publishers did where they were like well if we go before christmas we're competing with cookbook and like celebrity memoirs and those are often gifted over christmas rather than like self help books but if we go just after christmas people are on a new year near me kind of thing so maybe that's when it will hit okay i'm not sure how much of this was astrology versus like actual data but mean they seem pretty switched on so submit so maybe there was some data behind it as well and your cover looks like an air table spreadsheet the cover we okay is the thing with way with diesel of books the the reason atomic habits was so successful is because it was picked up by the demographic of women in their thirties in the midwest apparently which is like by far the biggest demographic of people who buy books and especially people who buy self help books and it really hit that crowd like sometime in the pandemic kin of the world like when a bunch of a bunch of ladies named kin yeah that kind of thing know they would take it and so the publisher was like look productivity is too bro we we need to have a cover that will be a bit more gender neutral feel a bit more like kind of fresh and inviting and you that's why what activities is like alison ab yeah a good point yeah excited about right but that's why it covers all like bright and colorful and so it's also my invite i like writing and colorful well the landing page is beautiful it looks good man you're gonna kill it congratulations on all this thanks man thanks chris thanks for giving us shout outs and and we'll we'll have to repay you in some way when your book comes out and we'll and we'll share it but we appreciate you coming on and we'll wrap up here that's the pop i feel like i could rule word i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a days off on a travel never looking back