5 Conversations that broke our frames this week

not gonna lie haven't heard a word since you said leverage to the tits such just waiting for us to talk about that a quick quick break it's it was like you know today i'm gonna wear a turtleneck and i might try to say leveraged to the tits like you know it's like getting get new haircut you know lighting affirmation yeah this is my fan so leverage to the tits is my version of having banks you know what i mean i feel like i could rule the world i know i could be what i want to from at all in it like a day's off on a road travel never looking back damn it's just me and you and no guess this is nice like a date night for us the kids are out of the house well let's debrief i have done a few things do you wanna go like back and forth of the interesting people that we hung out with i have got like two or three how many do you have yeah i got three four but i have a theme with mine i don't know if yours would fit this but the theme with mind is all people who are contra in some way and what i mean by that is not like contra like you know this like an annoying kinda contra not like like if you call yourself a contra it's like you're not contra right correct exactly they wouldn't say this about themselves i would say it about them which is what makes a kosher the way i'd say is they're all independent thinkers meaning when i hear the stories of what they're doing i don't even wanna ask about the thing it's like how did you even think of doing that thing you know what i mean it's like how alright before you tell me all the details how did you even get into that stitch situation why were you even looking there why were you even deciding to do that okay i can i can i can fit within that framework okay yeah i'll go first so i hosted this dinner in san francisco and invited maybe i don't know fifteen twenty people to this thing you did yeah yeah exactly i know you boys growing up friends and hosting things so in the city he drove to the city it he drove to the city yes this is true accent and so we go there and there's a guy there who on friends with called his name is justin justin called back and justin is a tremendous investor he was an investor early on and like gru hubs snapchat stitch fix like boom like i just say a bunch of companies that have done really well so let me tell you the story so i i was talking him about some of his big win investments so i'll tell you a quick so there was a gru pub one i was like how'd did you get into to gru he said oh gru was a he's like here's a funny story like they were doing well but nobody knew them and i think they had raised much money yet and i tried to get a cold emailed him i called cold called them i called the office couldn't get a hold of him he's like i flew to chicago i just hung out in the lobby till i bumped into the guys and i was like hey guys i've just really a believer in this thing sorry to bother but i'm i just really believe in this thing ends up doing that deal okay a classic chap classic meat cute so i was like how'd to snapchat one happen and he told this great story he goes i met evan and he's like i will just never forget meeting evan he's like i walked out of that meeting being like this guy he's one of them he's like one of the people that's gonna build this like legendary companies at the time i think he was still a student at stanford student college and i go was snapchat taking off was it like a rocket ship he goes no no it was like really small he's like it had maybe like a hundred hundred fifty thousand users wasn't growing fast and everybody on the outside viewed it as this like this silly little thing it was like this toy it's like oh is it just used for it's disappearing photos must be for inappropriate pictures or it's just a stupid college thing and he's like i was like so how did you invest and he told the story so he's like you know first i met evan and i heard him out and he he shared the story that he's like snapchat people think it's about photos and when they hear photos they think about facebook in instagram it's like permanent public photos that are for your memories he's like but actually we use photos for communication it's like back and forth and so he justin goes him so it's like messaging he's like yeah messaging he goes okay and so he goes home and he does some research he goes i think everybody's been comparing this to instagram and facebook and because of that the metrics don't look as good but if you compare this to imessage i wonder what this looks like or whatsapp so he he hustle and he gets in touch with somebody at apple and he's like hey just have a good question for you if somebody sends an imessage how many what percentage of them send an imessage every day for the next seven days and they run the query for him yeah like if you use message you can use it every day that's just how you use messaging apps he asked somebody at whatsapp same question he asked something and then he gets in touch with somebody from instagram a's like hey for instagram if you post a photo what are the aj post a photo you know the next seven days they're like ralph super low he's like what about even just using the app like it's this reasonable healthy number and he goes back to snapchat ass on the number and evan like he's like i don't know let me look it up he looks it up he's got the imessage number and he's like this is communication and he's like and nobody you know nobody else was really that that eager to invest and he was like i gotta go all in on this thing and sure enough he did and you hang hung out with him and he told you that story at dinner yeah did you have any other interesting people at that at your dinner that you wanna talk about or no yeah there's a couple guys so there's one guy will who's coming on the podcast will o'brien he's a irish guy and he's coming out of my because he had this sentence that caught my attention he goes the ocean is the ocean is the next space ocean is the next space when he's talking about he goes well you know how recently all these you know there's bunch of investment now in space tech so spacex obviously first but then after that they've been more and more companies that have been getting funded var and others that are all about rockets and satellites and good getting to space mining asteroids mining minerals whatever it is and he goes the ocean is the next space like the ocean is this other vast mostly une unemployed mostly untouched by tech space and he's building an ocean tech company and he told me about four or five other ocean tech companies and it was a finger to the lips you gotta come on the podcast i'll talk about them there don't don't don't waste this out of dinner okay that's actually a really interesting concept because right now space is hot robots so hot right now having a moment is oceans the new it girl i'm looking for it bro i'm looking for it and i'm like what's gonna be hot is is it yours is she like the hot girl who just has like glasses on for some reason she's still the nerd and then someone's gonna like take her glasses off i'd be like makeover doug you're the girl the rom com where yeah all you had to do is take her hair out of the podium tail off the glasses yeah you're now beautiful is that right is that the shit right yeah almost that that's cali no she shows was up a prom there's a new girl it's not a new girl imagine them giving their pitch to their lps or to their investors like you know my big golfing glasses yeah it's just like photos gentlemen have you seen she's all that yeah how about that thinks i hate about you then my friend let us it just you it it introduce you to our new ocean start you get it that's sounds great because he's just thinking a lot and living in a space that i it's i can know sort of right under your nose being we never really think about that's pretty cool alright you want me to tell you about someone i'm hang out with yeah give me one alright so we had this guy on the money wise podcast like a month or there's something to go and he's like it is sixty his named steve howard and he's a billionaire there he i had a great time talking to him on the podcast and like on the podcast think he was talking about like you know making money and and and all that traditional career shit but he's a billionaire from what by boy yeah so he is worth he says it on the podcast he's worth something like two billion dollars he made his initial money doing door door sales selling something and i i forget what he's sold but he made like a hundred grand and with that hundred grand the savings and loan crisis hit you know what that was in eighties i i don't completely understand it but basically a bunch of cheap land became available he got leverage to the tits and bought all his property and that made three million the three million he then bought some storage units that turned into like nine and then using that nine he bought a bunch of they say oil and gas i don't know like these dallas guys like say oil and gas but basically it means you buy lease rights meaning you like not gonna lie haven't heard a word since you said leverage to the i'm just waiting for us to talk about that take a quick quick break quick hubspot break real quick quote discuss that i kinda liked it well yeah i've trying it on much i'm just okay i'm trying it all just it's it was like you know today i'm gonna wear a turtleneck and i might try to stay leveraged to the tits like you know it's like getting a new haircut you know letting affirmation yeah this is my van pulled on leverage to the tits is my version of having banks you know what i mean alright so make so bunch of money oil and glass and land got it okay so you didn't just talk to him on the podcast then you went and you did an absolutely normal human thing for you after the podcast you invited yourself to his family reunion or something well after the pod i was like could i come over like can i come and just like hang out with you and he was like yes absolutely you can and so basically he lives in dallas he has this huge mansion on i know that because i looked the way i look a lot of people think that i know about like skiing but i don't but he was like i have a skiing ski out house which i didn't even know what that meant i've never ski to my life and i had to like figure all this out but we went to utah at his huge mansion it was a ski and ski out thing which if you do ski that's like a fancy thing or whatever and i learned a few things the first thing that i learned i had no idea but his three daughters are famous so his or sorry his wife and two daughters are famous so his wife is jen h she's got a instagram called turtle creek lane i think she has one point five million subscribers and basically your followers and basically what she does is she decorate their home and like the most crazy over the top way like so for example for christmas like it looks like a christmas doll house but that's like her real house and so she got famous doing doing that via instagram and then brought in the other two daughters to do you know thirst stick which i don't actually don't know what their stick is but i know that a million people follow them because when i was around them was they're just living and people was like love watching them where they're just like snapping content constantly or one no that's funny they weren't i mean they did a bit but it wasn't any different than anyone else who has like a thousand followers you know or like it was not obnoxious and they actually had mentioned that they worked with you on a company you invested in and they were like his company that he invested in they did a great job of hooking stop so you they they knew you yeah yeah one of them yeah sure but i didn't know maybe from their i think they do a good job in their personal the daughter's like personal content it doesn't look like i have the daughter of a billionaire type of right it's like super relatable it's fun it's you know it's it's easy to follow it's easy to like so i didn't know that they were like these famous people the second thing i didn't really know i didn't know they were mormon but they weren't just mormon he was like king mormon like he's on the board of by and so i i think i learned this the first morning sarah and i get up at seven am to go hang out and everyone we're sitting around the kitchen and we're just kinda like patiently waiting for them to get the coffee ready and you're just vaping really in the kitchen i'm just like sitting in this kitchen and we're like do you guys do coffee what's up with the they tell me that they don't drink coffee and they're like but we went and bought coffee beans to accommodate you and we have this coffee machine we've even went and bought a coffee machine we don't know how to use it but it's like over here and like they had to like and like i don't even know if they bought the right beans like they literally i'd never gone through this experience which is like a imagine like not knowing like do you get the beans you get the grounds you know like how does what device you need to ground the beads like is this the right machine or is this like a a there's five different types of machines they didn't know and they went to to accommodate this which was hilarious but when i learned with the with the instagram stuff is dude middle america moms who's they're following so much more profitable profitable then like comedy like doing comedy bits for like millennials or gen you know what i they made percent they kill it and they would like post like these gum that they got or this candy or this other widget that someone had sent them and they were like showing me how many of the products that they sell and it was the craziest thing ever seen like it was like why out the people listening to this podcast they're like i wanna do things for the trader economy no just do it for lisa in oklahoma i'm whatever economy that's what you wanna sell oh my god it was it was crazy they were like super mormon and i i'm i'm not into religion i don't like religion in particular particularly but i learned a lot and the one thing that i learned was they like explicitly stated their values so like you know when you're with your family and you'll make jokes with your sister like yeah you know like you'll you'll you'll bring her down you'll be like hey you said you're on a diet why you eating that or like you just like you just like mess with her like just teasing there was not one bring them down choke and i was like and i asked him about that i'm like you guys have made fun of each other once and they were like well like you know we're taught in this religion that you gotta treat like you know you gotta be christ like and like he doesn't make fun of people so we don't make fun of people and they had like all these like i would ask them a variety of different questions why don't you do this why don't you do that and they all had like very explicit answers it wasn't ever like just feels good or i don't know we just kinda do it was all like well mapped out and i thought that was really cool to be like super intentional about living when i asked them i was like why don't you guys drink coffee and they're like well we're taught not to like you know try not to be addicted to things or try not to like overly rely on stuff and was like alright that's a good reason and so it was crazy to learn all all all that stuff but here's let me tell you this last thing that i learned from this family it was like a fifteen thousand square foot house and i learned that you you know you've heard me talk on this pod and and i think you feel the same way about like owning stuff in a big house it's kind of like it's like oh it's a lot of work i don't wanna do that dude it it's such a life hack for like being around your family like it's the greatest thing ever and like i've noticed this amongst this family but also a bunch of other real really wealthy families that if you can like acquire a home that's big enough for your grandkids and everyone's super comfortable to stay there they will want to stay there more and thus you will spend more time with your families and like didn't we didn't have a private chef we didn't do anything the whole almost the entire weekend was us just sitting around a kitchen table i mean like cooked our own meals and just hung out and it was like the way to live was that like awkward being at there like family reunion or what was dude they were so they were like come on in and like they might even more awkward they're so nice also they were showed you nice i just think these guys are nice all the time and i asked them i like why are you so nice and i was like why do you guys have so much fun like they had like activities like we went like they're like let's go into pull coal punch and then get into the hot tub and then we're gonna go like have like activities planned that they all did as a family i was like what are you guys you doing and they were like we just want fun to be the center of everything we do and it was just like amazing this is the opposite of like you know when you're a bad kid in school and they take you to like jail and they wanna like shock value like show you what your life could look like if you just keep going down this path yeah i just got like ugly really hard yeah this is like the opposite you're like hey wanna see what a really healthy family dynamic looks like it was there for a weekend immersion it was the healthiest family dynamic i have never seen anything like this and then they have a subreddit there's a subreddit dedicated to making fun of them and it's have you ever seen this so first of all do you know why there's so many mormon influencers basically mormons are explicitly told you should journal you know journal is a good way to reflect on life and it slows you down that led to mormon mommy bloggers which they're like inherently kind of interesting because they're really into like i think mormons are told they need to prepare for the end of the world fucking awesome content right like talking about like your your packing system for like all your nuts and stuff like that's really good content par that into instagram and that is one of the reasons why there are so many freaking mormon influencers and i didn't know that but they have and so because of that they have a whole subreddit it's called like turtle creek lane sn or something like that and every time that they would post something people make fun of them for the ci stuff like one time we were like in the house and like one of the kids was eating a piece of cheese and like for some reason a two year old shouldn't have cheese i don't know why but that was a post that someone made fun of them or there was one time where sarah and my wife made it in the background of one of the photos and they're like who's this person as if she was like a new cast member and they like were googling her and like listing out her name it was crazy and i asked them i was like does this stuff bother you and they just it totally like like they were like no like why like what they care about us is their business it doesn't bother us at all and so this family had the most positive outlook on life and it it did wear off on me to be honest if it like you know i'm not about to go and like become a mormon or anything but i wanna hang out with him whole lot more right this is wild by the way didn't he getting like a helicopter accident like the next week or something the week after yeah he yeah he his he on the podcast on money wise he talked about how much he loves flying helicopters i don't know all the details but like three days afterwards they were flying a helicopter i think he was he's flying it himself he in this particular he does but in this particular case he was the passenger and they got wreck and it was not good and he survived he's gonna be fine but it was a it was a bad it was a bad wreck and like if you go to their instagram you'll see like all ten of their family members like surrounding him at the hospital and so yeah he's gonna have a a lot of issues to deal with but like this was like the kind sweetest family i've ever been out been around you know williams mh he came to and it was like me and raleigh williams and then the out family and raleigh williams his kid was amazing she's ten years old and i was she was the most articulate little girl i've ever talked to i was how how'd do you learn how to talk this good and she was like i you know for the church they teach us how to do like a h that's what we call in catholic i don't know what the mormon call we talk and burn like five hundred people at church and she was like in in doing that i learned that i anita like and like told me like all like the principles to like speaking confidently and i was like you're the greatest i like my next daughter navy because of because of you but this freaking family was awesome it was so i felt honestly like i was in a reality tv show but there's no drama there was zero drama it was like the happiest thing i've ever seen and the husband's by the way are the managers of so the husbands are the managers of the two daughters they were like one guy i was yeah you to work at amazon i helped create i think alexa or something like that but then when i saw the potential for like this influencer stuff i quit right away and now we make and they told me how much money and it was just an astronomical amount of money it was crazy so that was my weekend with a billionaire mormon family and it was awesome alright where can we go from here this might feel like a let out after that let's see alright i'm just gonna give you three numbers to pick from i have three people on this list give me now you want number one number two or number three number one or maybe i could rapid fire these and then you could tell me which one you wanna talk about okay hung out with my friend james courier he's we did a podcast together it's gonna come out soon he has this one bit that i just really liked so he's all about his fund is called n as a network effects he's all about network effects like nobody on earth knows more about network effects in this guy and he has this great blog post and this thing that we talked about which is called like your life on network effects i hadn't really thought of it this way but he the contra thing he said was he was talking about a leaving san francisco we had we had a bunch of friends who we used to hang out with that have moved out of san francisco during covid because they were like oh everything's online now so we'll just leave and then it'll be like good for taxes and he goes he's like everybody you know personal choices do whatever is like but if he wanted to be here and you left because of taxes and because you thought it's the same it's same same on zoom he's like that's idiotic you know you could you like you're just gonna save thirteen percent on your taxes and you're gonna lose thirteen half you're gonna make thirteen x less money on that same just on that same money saving decision moving for taxes when someone tells me they do that i think they're stupid i think that's a really that's a foolish thing to do do you agree or disagree there's a lot of people that do that i think it's foolish oh sorry they're not stupid i think that decision is foolish or rather i don't agree with it that decision and actually several other decisions they make probably all but don't you agree like the the point of of like succeeding is to do what you want not to have to live to port move to puerto rico if you wanna live to port puerto rico then great do it exactly if taxes is the number one reason i think that that is your your your what what's that phrase you can't see the forest and the trees or some something like that i mean i i kind of agree why i'm still here but but yeah so i thought that was interesting and he when he talked about your life on network face he's his idea is basically everything if you could take all your decisions you make and instead of thinking of them as things you did or decisions you made or just like events in your life if you looked at it as you either joined a network or you left an work you either added into a network or you you subtract it out of a network so for example where you choose to go to college it's not just a college it's not just an education you're picking a network to join you're i joined the duke alumni network and that that alumni network is gonna have certain benefits down the road it's also gonna lead me to maybe certain careers that that network tends to go towards which is like wall street finance things like that you know where where you live obviously is a huge one so like what city you live if you join the hollywood network you're gonna be joining a certain lifestyle certain career opportunities etcetera and when you leave you're opting out of that network or you're getting yourself away from the white hot center of the network even just skills you pick like let's say you wanna learn you learn marketing well you're actually joining a network of other people who know marketing and that's where you're gonna hang out with those are the opportunities you're gonna get and that's why where that's the the sort of the next decisions are gonna be heavily heavily influenced by the the network decisions that you're making the initial network decisions that you're making and what what like did that make you reflect on a decision that you've made or thinking that you did the right thing or the wrong thing or how will you implement this because that like makes me i don't regret i don't regret i moved mostly because of fam or only because of family but i do wish i was is own network right you like opted into your own per like you know your own par family you know network or whatever you know you opted into you opted to like be more dense there have more connectivity there which is gonna be great for your family raising and all that but you opted out of a tech network of san francisco let's say which by the way if i could live anywhere like if family weren't a think it would wanna it would either be an s f or a suburb like a twenty minutes away but right i would live there in a heartbeat and just what what did it make you feel like well he kinda points out like you know there's some things that you don't choose like where you're born right things like that but then there's after that it's a lot of what you start to choose to do and even little things like you know language is a network so you know if you're in china right now like choosing to join the english network is actually like a a really powerful decision you can make that's gonna like completely change the directory of your of your life being able to do that if you start to look at things english is not just a language it's a network it's a network of people who all can communicate with each other using certain syllables and words and vowels and phrases right money is a network right so joining the bitcoin network early on turned out to be a really profitable decision because you picked hey we're a bunch of people who all believe that this thing is gonna be valuable network right so it just made me more aware of that it may be you know why did i host that dinner in san francisco partly because james was like yeah one of the big mistakes i made earlier in my career was i got successful and i kinda siloed myself i kinda just wanted to do my own thing on the edge of network he's like it was great for creativity because i was just in my bunker just doing my thing but it was terrible because he's like you know i turned down that lunch meeting with travis when he was starting uber and i you know i was too ego to take that job at facebook early on when mark was trying to recruit me because i just thought like i'm gonna gonna be off in my own land creating my own little castle over here hey like again fun for creativity and for learning but a little bit foolish to the how extreme i was with that like and so you for me for example i'm i moved forty five minutes out of san francisco that reduced a lot of the ser meetings that i could have in the network in in the network of people that i like to be around interesting ambitious people would you move closer then well i don't i i don't think i'll move closer because like the family networks out here and it's just better like the school that we're in and all that stuff is better out here but i'm like yeah i could definitely like drive to s f twice a month and have like you know host of dinner do a couple of live podcasts with people there that'll be great and like that's not that much of an effort but just to stay just to keep one almost like a in the diagram right one line connected to the white hot center of the network yeah and i mean you live near bart right i do but bart bart a parts network i don't wanna be a part of you're opting out of that one yeah it that one alright i have another person so basically i don't speak at conferences unless my wife wants to come with me if neville wants to join and do it with me and if nick gray will attend those those three things have to happen you know i'd by entourage all three or one of the three all three all three have to happen all three have to have that's your like i only green skittles that's your writer that's my writer is sarah's gotta be the reason i i i don't i don't like traveling but i like to travel if it's our conference because i love going somewhere in the first two days or conferences the next few days are fun because you meet someone at the event who's gonna tell you cool shit to do and also i just like doing some my friends and so i went and spoke at this thing called the newsletter conference which was pretty wild because like fifteen of my ex employees were speakers and are all all like many of them are millionaires are making a whole lot of money doing newsletter stuff and that like made me feel proud but i met james alt you know who james alt is yeah he's been on the podcast he's what is his like he's a author like well his like title in life i think james might be the craziest person that i've met in the last six months so if you google james alt you're gonna see that he's like the thing that sticks out is his hair he's got this like crazy haircut and in real life he sort of looks like a rockstar like he kinda like like he's not trying but he looks so different that he looks super cool and awesome and so james is the type of guy who well he's got the story i don't know his full background but he's like created a startup up made a bunch of money blew it all on stocks or bad investments did another startup made a bunch of money lost at all and now i think he's on like mountain three and he's got hey he has a thing called choose yourself finding financial it started out just as a newsletter where he would just write about his interesting opinions and things like that he sold a portion or all of it to ago ago is a large newsletter business that makes something like one or two billion dollars year in revenue i don't like their company i think that they they have like fifteen or twenty it's basically it started in the eighties as one newsletter now they have like twenty and they acquire other people's newsletters and i think they do a lot of nefarious stuff so i'm i'm not trying to promote the those guys but not they're not all bad and he sold to them and now he's their highest or one of their highest earning newsletters and his newsletter choose self financial did a hundred and thirty million in revenue last year and it's like crazy the the numbers are crazy very profitable and he said all this on stage everything i'm saying is public and so i hung out with him and his his wife and we had a great time and he said one thing to me he said it like in passing and i was like the record skipped he was like yeah you know like i love door because you know like i don't leave my house for like three or six weeks at a time if i need a pen they just bring me a pen if i and i was like what did you just say that you don't leave your house for like three to six weeks at a time and he told me he's like yeah like sometimes i just get so into something that i literally will not step foot outside for like four weeks at a time and so he he but he said like five other things like that where he just was so fascinating and it was proof that you know how like i i think was in the peter till what's his book called one it's zero to one he said there's like a graph where it's like a bar chart or something like that where it's like extreme success means that you're likely gonna have extreme personality traits and those extreme personality traits like come off as weird or undesirable in many settings you know you could be like elon which means you're gonna be kinda mean sometimes you're gonna be like albert einstein which means you're like forgetful all the time and like wear two different socks or whatever like he like has these examples james is that guy he very much has the like brilliant but forgetful and quirky scientist vibe to him and it was just wild seeing him just have normal conversations because his opinion and the way he looked at things was one hundred percent fresh and different from how i looked at the most like normal things for example when he said he didn't leave his house i was like that's horrible he's like he was shocked that i was criticizing him and which is pretty funny because you know what he should live his life and be happy and that made him happy and it was it was like or in the green room he was playing chess the whole time with steph smith who was also there i was like you guys know each other and and then they're were like well we've never actually met but we played chess like constantly together online and he meets a lot of his friends playing chess online and there was just so many little tidbits about this guy that made him so fascinating to me and by the way if you saw if you know ago you know they're famous for these like long form sales pages and like incredibly aggressive advertising do you remember like she doesn't twenty or till in nineteen james face was everywhere yeah he was like i hate that i hated it i hated it i hate our landing pages i hate how long they are i hate how they look too aggressive and he was like i tried to write differently and like make my own landing pages none of them could ever convert nearly as good as like the crazy shit that they would write so did he make a ton of money off that gore thing yeah yeah alright or maybe the yes and also i i think the answer is is and is still and is still okay gotcha alright i like that one james i have another one that's less weird but more side quests so she'll shi mona who came on the podcast recently you can see his up episode the numbers crushed yeah he did he did he did really well we so he was at the dinner too and she'll tells these stories and you're were just kinda like if you just listen to the stories you like wow this guy's fascinating you would never know his day job because she'll is an epic side so his day job is he's a vc he invest in fintech companies that's his job and there's a lot of that the weird thing is that if you listen to him he's he's like oh yeah i i'm taking like like courses or like whatever i'm getting certified to be a travel agent now so i can access all these travel discounts he's been doing that he's like yeah actually looked at buying the ambassadors ship position for like being an ambassador of a country because it has these perks he's like basically like your friend who's like really good with credit card points but for everything including credit card points by the way i think all the podcast he gave us pretty good credit card point tip but he just has like all these epic side quests he's gone down over and over again he's like yeah i got married in the med and like taco bell sponsored it oh hey guess what else i did you know i started this auction company to go and buy and sell like the domain endings like dot app and dot photography like that was his business it's like these aren't even normal even his businesses aren't normal businesses they're just weird side quests that made money i think his sci is be his is that it yeah this was another one he's like oh yeah like so the the story he told on the thing was he was like i was interested in this like food delivery space got really hot sp etcetera i was ordering from all of them but i just thought there's no way these thing's making money so then as a side quest i signed up and became a driver for a month and i drove around and it was it was amazing i met all these people and i learned the model and i realized that this thing's never gonna make money and he he was right sp went out of business so did all the others that were doing it he's like but we could do this other thing this and i got my friend to do it and now this is like i forgot what what did he say on the podcast it's like absurd number i think it was a hundred million plus remember a hundred hundred million plus of revenue and i was like wow this guy is just always on side quests so for example he was talking about he's like he's like oh yeah mister beast posted this video about like i i'm on this abandoned island or whatever like this this abandoned island i'm the only one here and there's nothing here blah blah and that she was like hold on i've been to that island but without the video like and he's like no wait that's not abandoned there's like a there's a bar like three minutes away from where he is and there's this motel so he tweeted about this and then jimmy calls him is like hey man like what are you talking about like that is an abandoned he's like no not it's three minutes away from a bar like he's like no tech it's abandoned if you look at x y z and i was like this guy just constantly gets himself into situations situation situations wait jimmy called him because jimmy like felt his integrity was under attack yeah and he was like did you give jimmy me my number i was like no i didn't even i even know this happened and and shielded did back down he was like no it's not a it's not in an abandoned island or when they he's like where are you were he's like look at it three minutes away there's a place there's a pub he's like it's not a abandoned and i think technically maybe there was something where it's like the the like the border or like i don't i know what this i didn't get into the details i obviously i don't give a shit but i just thought it was amazing that there's people that just do things for their own amusement and i'll bring this home with a little tiktok i saw and it was the tiktok was there's like this tiktok had gone viral and i'm glad i went viral because it means that other people are similarly really attracted to people who just do do shit for their own amusement and really for no other reasons so the the tiktok that went viral was like i forgot the name of of the dance but it was basically like shout out to my boy willie for spending all of our bachelor party weekend trying to learn this dance so i guess there's like some dance and there's like this he's like this offer looking white guy and there's like two black friends trying to show him how to do this dance and it's just like everywhere they went during the basketball party he's just practicing this dance just to like see if he can learn it in a weekend and like he starts off really bad and by the end he's actually like pretty good at the end of the weekend and then they cut to the to the wedding and he's doing the same dance just for fun on the on his own on the side of the dance floor like not part of a performance just like just doing his thing over there and i i respect that i think i respect that more than i respect like someone's achievements in life i kinda respect people that that value their own amusement as the highest order bit and i think sheila is an example of that like the shit he does he's not doing it because there's some outcome he's seeking he's just amused by it and therefore like follows it and he ends up in these situations that at the end become really good stories but i don't think that's why he's doing it i think you know we've done close to seven hundred of these episodes she would be in my top ten of people who i admire most i think that she'll did you like people i don't even know if we mentioned this this one do you know that shields at justin bieber music video of course he is why wouldn't he be just bieber all that happened like i was watching from the the outside so i think the way it happened was during covid sc created an online version of bachelor like the bachelor yeah yeah yeah i watched this it was great and wait what were what was it exactly it was was this during covid or bachelor on zoom and i think it was called the zoom bachelor or something like that he shield the bachelor and there's was a bunch of women that would pop up and then he would like eliminate he'd give out roses and eliminate them and he fixed someone in the end they went on a date or something and somehow i could be confusing all the stories but somehow this it it like it was a hit it was awesome and then he then there's a video of him where he's turned around like this and it looks like he's making out with someone like this and this video yeah so he i think he is i'm watching those all from outside i think he posted that video and then he turns around any smiles and he looks so happy and that clip made it in to a justin bieber music video and if you go and watch the music video his clip shield clip is the best clip okay have i have it it's there what what would what was it called like love yourself was it love yourself and he's like it looks like he's making out with someone is play play that clip and like watch that oh my god so funny it turns around he's got a huge mustache for some reason he's just teasing do you know another crazy thing about him by the way i you know the podcast startup on gi media i think he created that yeah yeah yeah i think he did him when he he had his hands in it maybe we'll say that yeah he just has had he's had so many weird things happened to him let me let me tell you know the one another person who i think is is doing their own thing so my buddy fe con so you know he's also been on the podcast so fe and i try to we were c founders we try to start bunch companies together for like you know six or seven years i know on super well one of the things about fe is that he is he's just a grinder and it doesn't matter how like successful or wealthy he's gotten i mean his last company is like a hundred billion dollar company and it it's like a absurd and was why is it taking off so much by the way like app love for years it was sort of a joke because when you would drive in san francisco they had billboards where they were trying to recruit engineers and the name app love came out right or you'd we still associated it with mc levin and it was like is this is this is this a real company you know what i mean and now it's one of the most valuable companies in the world yeah exactly so he he's bid so so fe has been early into into a bunch of like tech things right he's he's basically like a hacker hacker so he was really into into crypto before crypto was cool like i remember literally being at the office and he was like not pay attention because he was buying into the ethereum ico at like you know seventeen cents or something like that and i was like ethereum i'm like literally like do fucking name have never gotta work so i didn't buy because your boys a genius and that's why i'm a podcast now and he's billionaire and so it's for kinda billionaire there now or i don't know i don't know the user is it put something you know he's sort a hundred billion dollar company i don't know he's he's not like he's not like three zip codes away maybe he's too i don't know well he's getting close so he got into crypto early on and then when web three happened remember when web three happened and everybody who's like like piling into web web three and fe was building a company in that space literally of these companies called third web and he was just really into the actual like technology behind he's like oh i think i can make these tools easier to use for developers and blah blah blah blah good what time he like did a talk on remember the raspberry raspberry pie yeah yeah and like he he likes one time spent like forty five minutes explaining to me all about it and he knew everything about it yeah yeah he knows everything about everything so he's and the second thing he got really into was vr so he bought me an oc just because he was like i don't wanna tell you about this and like hope that you go try it out here here's the new oc headset go home and put this on like okay that that's that's that's not for friend you need and so i go home and i i put it on i'm blown away and i'm like wow this thing's is getting really good and then i think he bought me like another one when it i got better and then i started buying and and i'm like paying attention to vr but you know i'm like every other le out there it's like i pay attention when shit gets hot and fe con the reason why f kinda so great is because he doesn't pay attention when things hit hot he's like in indie hardcore nerd bucket where he's like i pay attention it because it's interesting to me don't care if it's popular or not i don't care if it's hot i don't care if it's if it's here if it's here or not i wanna be on this train the whole time and so he was telling me about his so he's got this lab called effing and he was telling me first first my third web is growing and how it had real revenues now like i like wow that's great then he's telling me about vr and like sam like how many people do you know that are interested in vr right now like everybody who is interested in tech is interested ai where's your ocular sitting right now dude where's the biggest pile of dust in my room i think it's back there it's yes gone same my i mean like i did i did what everyone did they got it this is awesome this is gonna the world i'm gonna change everything i don't know where the charger is it's in my drawer somewhere yeah let's just go back to scrolling on my phone yeah and he didn't do that he's like he would tell me like we wouldn't hang out and he's like i'm working in vr day once a week i go coworker in vr like what and so guess what his interest in vr there's not it's not popular right now in fact they went to a vr conference and this vr conference was like you know cricket basically and he sends it's vr the new ocean it's the old ocean that's the problem it's not doesn't even have the new tag and so our buddy hub who works on them goes there and he wears a t shirt all black that just says i invest in vr huge on the front he's like dude it was like being the only girl at like a like a prom or something like that there was like everybody was interested in him because he's in he's like the only guy left investing in vr and he's like dude it's actually kinda working he goes you know if you look at the top fifteen apps like the top fifteen apps in all of the the oc store these three guys over here own three of the top fifteen is like they're printing money right now like this thing is amazing yeah it's not like it's not the hot thing right now but like i don't know if you can make ten million dollars is like a small team building these apps and you're the frontline of this and you're the only people who are like specializing this technology like good things are gonna happen so it just kinda reminded me of like you know all the money is made either and being sort of right on time but timing is super hard and so the same way that warren buffett it was like don't try to time the market focused on your time in market fe is doing the like detect the engineering version of time in market where once he's interested in something and he believes in it he doesn't sort of he doesn't let his interest go in and out based off of like you know popular sentiment or vcs or or exits or anything like that it's just based on is the tech getting better or not and i think that's just such a strong thing that's gonna you know help them be super super successful two like all the young people listening who are like looking for a thing to do i feel like that story is maybe a life altering that that this is a very good premise and i'm i'm on board with that with this premise i do think vr like it's actually and it's not this isn't a secret mark zuckerberg who has a really good ratio of getting things right has like said like this is the thing and also do you know who also loves vr shield shield posts videos of hit or not it's not vr but the the meta or what's it called the ray bands ray bands yeah he loves those ray bans and it's very clear how there's like you know that's on the same ballpark of of vr and how this can all work that was what i was gonna break up so i love those two i have i bought some for my sister just like for her birthday recently and i think that that it's a great product it's actually like i do you have them by the way no i'll go buy them right now what do they do like what's the point the the first the very first easy thing is they're basically airpods so people don't really realize this at worst case scenario you just bought a pair of airpods that you're probably not gonna lose so the audio from the like the glasses the the the part that goes behind your ear it's not in your ear but you can hear like music podcast podcasts whatever super easily so the audio is the the air pod type of feature is great and then the camera right like hands camera if you have a kid like for kids this thing is incredible because i wear them to like my daughters like soccer games or whatever and tilt like you know the moment passes so quickly with kids and if you're fumbling get to out of your pocket unlock face id note up type in my password get the camera app but it's it's over by then right and you're now looking through your phone at life versus your glasses that's you're where you're already looking it's on your head it's on a swivel all you do literally if something's going on or something's interesting you just tap the and it starts recording and the video looks great by the way it's things really really good so for if you're traveling if you're out and about if you've got kids if you're out a sports thing if you're at a concert this thing is amazing and so awesome to me these are the these are the future i think meta knows this they're like investing in it very heavily i think it's interesting is kind of un tested right now like maybe apple will get in the game maybe if they still have like the d juice to do it snapchat seems to have fallen out the famous like i forgot what the thing was called magic leap those guys died or dying and the humane pin died right like all that stuff is this kinda dead and i think facebook has this sort of un tested right now and the thing i was gonna say though is i remember when i in san francisco this company called leap motion got bought do you remember leap motion yes did they did it become a video game or like part of a video game got bought by facebook and what they were doing was they were they were like it was like this thing you wore on your wrist and then you could just move your hands and do like hand gestures to control a computer essentially they never really found product market fit because guess what lot not a lot of people wanna sit in front of their desktop and like hand gesture like the minority report like replacing the mouse and keyboard wasn't like super sick i guess yeah but it's pretty sweet if you have some physical disability which i mean there's a lot of like amazing applications i would imagine maybe but you still gonna use your hand on your arm right so it's like you know same thing like i guess a mouse really but the the the team that was working on it was like cutting edge at this kind of like gesture control and guess what like being the best team in the world at gesture control or another example of this was they got bought for i think a hundred million plus another company that got bought for a hundred million plus that never hit product market fit was the company that was working on face masks so before remember when snapchat came out with those face filters it was super hot like the nit dog face filter og no it was it was called mas grade was the name of the company and so mas grade i think it was like a european company it was just small company and again got bought for like a hundred million dollars plus and then facebook bought another company that was doing a very similar thing or maybe i'm mixing up who who bought mass grade but i guess my point is being at the leading edge of just the tech you get two shots to win if you make the breakthrough app that actually does get product of market fit then you get to win in the billions if you're just the most hardcore tech team at building like good functionality and like like working on these new platforms your team is your team of ten really strong engineers if you could actually build a strong team your floor becomes like a fifty to a hundred million dollar company i don't think most people realize this i think most people think starting companies really risky yes but there are less risky versions of this and right now if you are working on the meta ray bands platform which like today there's no there's no app store for it there's nothing but guess what there's gonna be right like that form factor is for sure going to exist and there's for sure we're gonna be apps that are built on it and so if i was a pretty hardcore tech team or if i worked at one of these big companies like let's say i was at facebook or i was at spec goals and i on that team the smartest thing you could do is spin out with your five smartest friends and be like hey guys the floor of this company is a fifty dollars to hundred million dollar company and the ceiling is like a billion dollar company or two billion or whatever it is and all we're gonna do is we're just gonna live at the cutting edge of this and we just have to survive five years we have we need time in market like we just have to survive five five years in order to like be there and we're gonna just work out all the kinks about the spatial recognition about getting gesture control correct about all these little tech problems that you need to do to make things great because either you're gonna do it and crack the app or they were gonna buy you because you've solved a bunch of gnarly problems there was i'm reading this book called digital cold it's about the heavier you know that it's a that book it's about a bitcoin and the founding and like the early community and things like that i don't think i've i heard that one it's great there's not actually that many books written about like the early characters which is why i wanted to read it because we had nick built on and we did american king pan silk road i was like is these stories are are are really fun and now like i know of a lot of the early characters at bitcoin and like them talking about going to their first conference and now the first conference there was like fifty people there and it was like a shitty restaurant and and just like all these like stories of like yeah like this checks all the boxes of like early like crowd of just nerds who are regarded as freaks and no one takes them seriously and then one like legitimate financier is like okay there's something here and then another one and then another one and then like there's a controversy but they overcome it and then like it's just like it fits all the stereotypes of of these types of stories and what you're describing is like that same thing it's like a group of weirdo you know what did we say about i had some guy pitch me a company that i thought was really stupid and now it's huge it was like this product is dumb oh my god people are using this they're dumb oh my god everyone's using this i'm dumb you know they mean and like it's like that's like how you go through that's like the process of some of these things and like when you're talking about these medical glasses you're talking about vr you're talking about oceans i'm like oh my god there's like a story here a story there like it's the same pattern over and over again it's a really fun pattern speaking of crypto i have three crypto things for you real quick number one james on the podcast tells the story about because he wrote this blog post a long time ago he he tells he i he tells a story about how his friend thought he was satoshi and the reason why is because how flattering i know by the way like so some of my friends like who maybe a long shot you think i'm am sent satoshi no i could never right what an honor though but the thing that he's was saying was he wrote this blog post that i've it's on his blog still it's called one currency to roll them all and it was about one world current about creating a digital world currency and he tells the story on the podcast about why he why he was interested in that howie he's set and what what happened so he was like him i forgot who it was it was it was him it was philip rose who started second life which why by the way like still to this you know basically a second life to this day is probably the best execution of a meta like they had like millions and millions of players they lived their lives in there they formed relationships and marriages they had like they have their own currency in there like is it is it his own still i don't know if second life is officially like died i don't if it's still going i'm not sure but like at the time they had linden bucks or whatever of linden dollars and was like a whole thing so him and philip rose were like interested in this and then it was there's a famous vc i'm forgetting the name now but he tells the story about a famous vc and they used to meet once a week and they would talk about like okay how are we gonna build this world currency and they were like here's what it needs to do and like all the things that bitcoin eventually did they're like like it needs to have i needs to have this and needs to have this and then what they did was they went to the lobby conference which if you know is like this hundred a hundred percent conference and they you went to last year of the lobby conference it was awesome it was all internet og it was so cool so they were at one i guess and their their little breakout conversation was about this they're like hey i think there's some there's a need for this and he bought the domain blue dot com b l u e dot com he was gonna launch it was gonna be called blue and like you know the dollar is green and this currency was gonna be blue and they had the whole thing sort of like planned out i guess they but they were like they couldn't figure out how do we if this ever becomes a thing like the target on our back is gonna be too crazy like we can't do this and the problem was they were like we've already talked about it at lobby and he's like once we realized this this thing would need an imma conception that it would need to be totally anonymous or synonymous like start and nobody could know who did it they're like we blew it we said it at the lobby conference office there's fourteen other people now who who've have heard us be interested in this and when the white paper came out years later philip called him was like dude i can't believe you like you cut me out no he's hey he's like if you've seen bitcoin he's like yeah he's like that's you right he's like no it's stop me he's like i thought it was you if any of if it was either of the two of us but you you're way more technical he's like no it's not me who the hell is this how cool that is awesome that is one of the great greatest stories i've heard they it's weird that multiple groups of people start working on the same thing independently at the same time isn't it and they had the same conclusion that it had to be an anonymous creator yeah exactly and you know what the other crazy thing you saw this jack do like is jack that was stupidest thing man like there were some compelling evidence but then what they did was they completely like spoiled the broth by putting in there jack loves wearing japanese clothing like as like examples of why he is satoshi do you know what i mean it was ridiculous well i didn't think that was that bad what's wrong with that there was like multiple pieces of compelling ads it's supposed to be compelling evidence that says like jack w who is so satoshi t shirt to the to the olympics like it was just like ridiculous stuff no i i thought it was i thought i i thought it was ridiculous you didn't think it was ridiculous first i did because i was like jack do no way you know and then there's this deck right do you read the deck there's this actual like full slide deck about it there was a bunch of good points there was a bunch a bunch good points about it what things i didn't know i did not know that jack was like in those early cyberpunk communities back when he was like fifteen years old or something like that you know what i mean like he was actually in that like whoever started this thing was likely in that really small community bop i don't know fifteen hundred people that were on those early mailing list well he was and he and he was i didn't know that so that was kinda new information okay interesting other things that i didn't know so there was like there was like a lot of the timing things with when he was starting twitter and when he was like basically the timing of when satoshi was active and then when twitter took off and then when he stopped when he left twitter and it was like i i'm excited about new things and then like thousand tweeted he like tweeted like some someone needs to create this thing or that thing and it was like right when the satoshi was creating that thing like there was all these like weird coincidence in timeline exactly but then there was other stuff where he was like look at the code here that sounds like jack's favorite restaurant in san francisco or jack said he wants to be by the us mint for his office which twitter it was therefore it i just thought it was huge breaches there are huge breaches and i don't think it's true but i thought wow this is a lot of stuff about jack go that i didn't really realize and like you know for example you know one of the i think the the biggest reaches of the thing where they were look at like strings of the transaction ids or whatever and it'd be like c this says d two m p dude two plaza that was his address right like alright i don't think d just because d two m p showed up in the middle of a of a string doesn't mean that that he's saying you know one dude s f one d s f that's right you know it's like those are the ones who like okay i think that that stuff is that stuff is true it's like trying to like figure out if two box still alive live like did you hear what that he he said shu shot me like he said it in the song you know what i i definitely go read this deck the deck was very entertaining and it was presented in a very like serious way and i just appreciate the seriousness that which somebody took took this this research by the way that two man plaza that's where we were for the dinner and i'll say and it was the same day that a thing dropped i was like hey this is maybe i'm the maybe your satoshi that should be to takeaway away that my takeaway away and i've got i've got one more thing for you go to chi dot com so c h s i c h sorry start over chi dot com alright i spelled it all wrong out there is it chico is a spam boots do you see the boots incredible craftsmanship i see cowboy boots yeah so i own a pair of these boots i have no stake in this company nothing i just think it's cool i and the the founder is part of like i recently became friends with them but he's part of my friend group in austin he was like friends nick and i met him month to twice through nick his name is will roman and this company he bought a thousand dollar pair of cowboy boots i think five hundred five hundred or six hundred dollar pair a year like a while ago and this company he owns the whole thing and he was explaining to me at like we were hanging out and i was dude this is good story can i talk about it so he give me permission but the company does like low seven figures in revenue and the way it started was he worked in tech like got a normal tech company quit his job moves to mexico to learn because mexico's where a lot of like great boots are made like spends years there like learning the craftsmanship shit practicing yeah apprentice he's like i wanna learn how boots are made and i wanna make bespoke boots that was his dream was to make bespoke boots he's a texas guy he's like he's kinda looks like a cowboy and he quits his tech job moves learns how to make boots creates this company called chi and he was telling me the other day he didn't he didn't he didn't say this but i got this read on him that he's a little burnt out he was like the companies like growing ten percent to fifteen percent a year i own the whole thing and he was explaining his vision he was like there's ta which are like kind of cheap but they sell hundreds of millions of dollars for the boots it's a startup up and then there's like bespoke boot makers who are just mom and pop stores he's like i wanna be a little bit closer i wanna be closer to bespoke than than tacoma i don't wanna be that's i don't wanna be cheap like i need the highest quality and i refuse to sacrifice that quality but i wanna wanna build this into the huge company and i was like do you spend on marketing do this and he's like no we don't do anything i just make the greatest boots and i googled the boot name shows those boots and like reddit it and all these other companies or all these other like forums are talking about this is the best boot on earth and i see all that to start formulating in my brain i'm like this is it my friend you have it like the hard part is done like surely there's some type of like nerds out there that could help make this company big but i thought i'd bring this to you because i criticized the d world a bit when well i have that criticism often about the this world and how there's not enough emphasis on product creation and story and things like this and it's mostly just arbitrage and i came across this and i was like that's an example of something that i think i don't know anything about this world but i think could be blown up and be made made pretty huge yeah this is really by the way great branding by this guy so like do does everything go go to their websites very clean and like this like saw it in half video like what i like about this is a i love that story of moving to mexico to like apprentice and actually like learn the craft and i just kinda want that to be like a tv show but the second thing is sometimes the people who are really good at making the product can't show it there's little story so ben's brother bought into a restaurant or like help c founder a restaurant where they live in in phoenix so we go there for lunch and we're there and it's his brother and it's and i was like so why did you do this he's like well the chef is amazing he's he's like you know recognized as like one of the best chefs so he's he's great chef he's like i just really believe in this guy's product and i thought we could turn it into a business like the problem is when you partner with these artists sometimes they don't a know anything about how to like convey that or show that and b they just won't compromise like price or quality or whatever just uncompromising things like bro like we need to like we need to make this like we're so expensive compared to everybody else like that's a but nobody really un is we're so expensive and that's hurting our business and i was talking to about and he's like he's like for example he holds up these tortilla he's like you know these tortilla like these tortilla cost this much i forgot i was like whatever let's call it this is pretend two two bucks he's two dollars of tortilla most people get their tortilla like twenty cents and i was like well why and he's like because he demands that every morning we get fresh tortilla that are truck in from mexico and i was like wow that's awesome why don't you tell anybody that hey like what i'm like yeah you should like tell people the we truck our tortilla in fresh from mexico every morning i'd gladly pay two dollars if i knew that your problem isn't that the chef is not willing to compromise and cut costs your problem is that you're not marketing this in a way that actually tells the story of why i should why this food tastes better than anyone else and why this is fresher why this is more authentic why this is better why this is higher priced and so that became like a little like a one of our our core things that my my little team me ben diego we talk about all the time we go we call it the tortilla principle it's like we when we look at businesses that we're either gonna buy or our own businesses it's like where are we trucking in tortilla fresh from mexico and are we doing a good job of telling that story and almost always the answer is no like the things you do in your business that are like the blood sweat and tears to do something great you take for granted because they just seem like table stakes for you and you're not even telling the world about why you do that or what you do there why you're different than anybody else why you've gone the extra mile there yeah joe sugar been one of my favorite copywriter he was like i used to sell so many of these particular watches i forget which company he was cas maybe and they were like we and he was like we make this out of this aluminum or they were the cass was explaining to joe sugar in the copywriter how they make their watch because he was like tell me everything so i learned and he was like yeah we we use a space the space grade aluminum to make this watch and he was like wait so this aluminum is strong enough for spaceships he's like yeah but like every watch company ever uses the exact same stuff he's like so and and and then they were like we and then this quartz movement is special for this reason but again every company uses that he's like space age aluminum precise quartz movement like that and that became like the that is what's sold a lot of cass cass watches cass the makers it's called the knowledge complex when you know too much about it that you think that that's not interesting and joe sugar and outsider copyrighted was like no this is so interesting and that's what someone needs to do with if google will roman that's the founder but dude look at his website you you started your story with this guy worked in tech had an everyday job wasn't perfect quit his job move to mexico for three years to learn the arc of boot making guess what not on his website i know the but years of life three years of marketing collateral that he's is not using right like that's a thousand days of his life that he's not putting on the website like even if you even if you click down the more tab you right it's like more our store you go to mars it's like true small business hi will i'm a hardworking working guy passionate about the craftsmanship guess what everybody says that guess what everybody hasn't done move to mexico for three years an apprentice in this boot factory i was like right i was like will do you use reddit it he goes i don't really know how to work i go let me show you something if you google what's the most if google comfortable cowboy boot reddit the top post someone asked that and chi the top line it says this is the most comfortable boot i've ever worn and there's a hundred and seventeen comments agreeing with that top post and he's was like oh that's awesome be like saw that i was like are you insane man this is it do you have this guy doesn't have a tiktok is that right i don't think so does he not know that like every niche nostalgic profession is now like the coolest kid on tiktok like if you plant like beats or something like that you have a beet farm dude there's like victorian porn where it's like people like wearing like you know like old dal dresses like you know what i mean like there's like the weirder or the better and the more physical real world the better go look at epic gardening right like if he wants to do this like go go teach people about this go show them the process show them at the factory it looks like show them cutting a boot in half like stuff like that i think would be would be just fire on on tiktok and i i only brought it up because i the story was amazing i also wanna go on record as like this might be like another like of our like feather cat where where we called it moment because i do love their boots it's so good and i love meeting people who eighty percent of the work is done this other part a lot of people could help you and and get it done and and not the eighty percent of the work is done because like actually eighty percent the work is the marketing and like operations but it's they did the one hard thing that others aren't really really willing to do yeah that's what i mean like it's like a great product like the product is good we did this in my sushi restaurant so the the restaurant that we started we started as an online a virtual restaurant right but before door dash and uber eats but we like create a website we would drive people to the website and you would order sushi and like we would make it in a comm area kitchen and delivered it to you in like under twenty minutes and so we had our menu and we go and we'd meet with dan ariel do you know who that is the author hey he's he wrote this book called predictably irrational so he's a behavioral economist and he just happened he was a teacher at duke we were duke students so we get in with him and like normally companies pay him whatever six figure seven figure contracts to like consult with them he's willing to meet with us because we're just like three you know dumbass asses that we're like in at like at school and we go dan we wanna like drive more sales you're the guy what should we do show me your menu we we look we show them the menu and he goes oh okay you wanna you wanna make more money you you want more people to buy from you raise your prices go what goes we're go but like you know we thought we could make it more accessible more affordable that was the whole pitch we won the business plan competition telling people we're gonna make sushi more accessible more affordable he goes yeah but when somebody looks at this they just see cheap sushi so which some people don't want which is the worst sushi jesus she's the worst type of solution exactly so he's like that's not what you want because and so we and by the because we were of the reason i this up we were an online restaurant so we could literally ab b test now we didn't have the tooling we weren't like smart enough to even know what an ab b test was i didn't even know the phrase but we would literally switch it by day so we would do day one we which spoke menu a day two was observe med b that we would look at the number at the end of the day like how do we do and so we raised prices and not only did revenue go up but conversion rate went up we we actually converted more customers and more money per customer like oh shit okay dan what else could we do he goes sushi and the wine industry i forgot the name he had for it but he goes they create their own language around the products and we go put that's why what it's so inaccessible i don't understand what any of that stuff means he goes exactly but if you do know what it means you feel smart and you feel like an insider and we were like what and it goes so we tested three three models of language so we had what we had before which was well we thought the accessible version right the philadelphia roll salmon and cream cheese wrapped up tastes great right that was like literally like how we used to write and then we have the next one which was let language she's he's like so same joe sugar principle he's like do you freeze your salmon and we're like no awesome fresh never frozen atlantic hands you've can caught salmon or something like that right same role same salmon more words boom conversion right up like oh god it works this is true and then we we just kept doing the same thing with the whole menu and it should be two things one man restaurants should really ab b test their menus and i don't think they do good enough job of this and b you can like the same thing can be sold just with with better words with better marketing and dramatically change your business it's not like just something you slap on at the end and that's good enough it's like no you will get this like multiplier on on on success based on how well you do this one thing it's not just like a ten percent improvement it was like a two x 3x x type of improvements you could get by stacking these on top of for each other mobile was your cute way of explaining cream cheese i don't know i think we might just said had not even not even mentioned it just put it at the end you like and and the smooth you know the other stuff yeah whatever yeah i remember like and the funny thing was with salmon and it was like we were so excited about fresh never frozen salmon and it was like our calling card not like those other guys it this frozen frozen salmon and we used to go in further we don't we don't even have a freezer in our restaurant that's how fresh this is and then we met the chef and he was like you need to freeze a salmon it kills the bacteria we're like oh shit sorry whoops well and also flash frozen salmon to kill all all of the bugs and like all like have you ever seen the documentaries when they when the japanese catch the salmon that they're gonna use they drop it into the boat that has like it's a freezer like they freeze them like yeah know what i mean french frozen yeah so like i i remember like learning of them i'm like oh shit everything i've been told to is a lie yeah alright that's it that was a good pod what do you think yeah i mean this was a good it's a good catch up just fun fun to hang up fun a talk and i feel like i don't know if other people feel this way but just debrief interesting people we met and the way their mind works or the little schemes they got into it's kind of my favorite thing well i stole it from you where i actually started writing like i'll write notes right after i meet someone even if you don't refer back to it it's pretty good it's good alright that's it that's a pod i feel like i could rule world i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a day's off on a road less travel never looking back