#180 with Furqan Rydhan - What it's Like Co-founding a $20B Company, Hardware for Mind Control & Vertical Farming

anyway i that one more in a different space that i think sam will love show ash sean i told you about this book i read about vertical farming and you know basically like i read the wait a minute wait a minute wait a you guys just for talking about crypto stuff and then he just said i've got something i think sam like farming yeah going that big of a red to you i like it to yeah i feel like i could rude to where i know i could be what i want to from at all in it like a days off on a goal travel never looking back alright we have a special guest on the pod today fe is here he's my old cofounder probably the smartest guy i know especially tech wise so we talked about a bunch of things ranging from his last company app love which just went public at a know twenty thirty billion dollar valuation so we talked about you know the humble beginnings of that and and all the way to a massive ipo what he's doing with his money you know so you win the lottery what are he gonna and he talks about his new project that he's building out and then we talked about a bunch of cool things that he he shows me so every every week we do it and i do a call with him called the cool shit hour right i just sit there on video and i just say hey show me cool shit that you're interested in because he's like a total you know tech nut he's on the the bleeding edge of everything and so that's my hack to learn a bunch of things before they go mainstream and so he talks about you know some hardware stuff that he's really interested in like a brain wave measuring device that he's wearing he talks about crypto and then we talk about vertical farming and the future of that so bunch of topics on that side i would say there's some part of the crypto stuff that might be over your head so too many terms acronym stuff you don't know about here's my advice two two ways you could still get value even if you don't fully get it because hey i only have get it for cons usually ten steps ahead of me and so what i've learned in knowing for fur for like almost a decade now is when he thinks something's interesting instead of just saying i don't understand that that's weird lean in go google it later look it up you know if i had just followed a bunch of the things he was interested interested in i would have made a killing investment wise over the last decade and i've learned the hard way that that's what i should do the second thing is he shared a bunch of general advice about how he went about his career you know college dropout choosing jobs that weren't the highest paying job and why he chose it what he kinda optimize for i thought there was some good stuff in there so if you were not subscribed to this podcast if you're just listening to this podcast maybe your friend told you about it you know what you need to do open up the podcast app apple the itunes app or open up spotify on spotify you click follow on the apple podcast app you're gonna click subscribe we are climbing the charts i think we're number twelve in and maybe business or investing category and we are breaking into that top ten and we're not leaving when we get there so how do we do that subscribe if you've enjoyed this podcast you can value out of it just hit the button that's all you gotta do hit the button thank you so sean and i are both wearing harvard shirts i actually planned this i saw you a screenshot of you testing and i went and grabbed my harvard shirt i was about to go on this big like what a coincidence this is amazing no i i do have one that i wear but i saw you were wearing it so i wanted to i wanted to wear the same thing because we normally wear black t shirts yeah and you know for the record neither of us went to harvard but we both do this thing where we'll wear harvard stuff and then people would be like oh harvard and then you respond you're like miss that campus love it love it and you went on tour and they actually went to harvard yeah yeah yeah they're like oh you wet like yeah i gotta a girl han it was lovely it it showed me around o four oh yeah but when i was at we almost overlap i i was there for lunch but yeah oh what was like were you there noon fe even better fe didn't even finish college so for that of all of us he's the most he's the smartest and most are successful one and he was smart enough to drop out after what freshman year software year u i was there for a couple of years i mean i tried to do i went to san date i tried to do computer engineering because obviously that would would've it made sense but i was running a company at the time and every time i was deciding between electrical physics or on the phone with somebody trying to make a deal and you know you know which one won so yeah do you wanna give a background sean of fe because last time he was on we were way smaller yeah fe is one of my best buddies he was the guy started a last company with or c cofounder cto so you know most c cofounder pairing i would say the most common one is one guy who can build and one guy who can sell and that's kinda of what we were like i'm i'm more like the sales guy and he's more of the building guy and yeah we worked taylor on know six seven years sold the company a year and a half ago for kind brave it out and made it one full year at a big corporation so i gotta give him props for that that's like a you know an an endurance challenge for you right now now he's now he's doing his own so he's got f dot inc which is how do you describe it it's i just wanna build cool things with cool people so that's what i'm focused on that's really it i would describe it as you know if you're trying to start something you want like a third founder it's an interesting emerging tech idea that's where i get excited and i wanna put in time and money i think you baked these things with you alright i'll get i'll give a different description i'll give by my view of it sweet basically fe is investing in himself like fifteen years ago whoever whoever's is that person so if you're like a young engineer and you wanna make some shit happen and man it'd be kinda helpful if you had somebody who's been around the block who's done it before who can either give you money advice bill actually get in the code and build with you and so he's got this dis it's kinda like why comb he's got this discord group and every single company is like i don't like a twenty three year old engineer they get their own channel and then basically on some of them fe is actually like the back end engineer with them on some of them he's like the tough love investor who's like dude aren't you focus on growth why are you talking about all all this other bullshit and in some cases it's like oh you you need to move to san francisco and like live on my couch i think you've done that with a few engineers of like literally come here sleep on my couch and like not just seed fund you i'll like fucking babysit sit you and inc incubator you literally and physically in my apartment i i wanna spend some time actually discussing that because i want i wanna like rem a little bit but but first by the way we gotta congratulate for kind also he his he since he's come on his last company app love and ipo i don't know what is it at now i ip close to thirty billion dollars so you know yeah i was gonna say we we have to give that part of the story which is fe on c founded the company that is currently publicly traded for twenty billion dollars yeah for christmas rich is one of those so i'd like a pretty important although it looks like you guys did you guys just do an earnings so something happened today where we your stock just plummeted well not plummeted but went down a fair bit yeah i don't know i mean just all tech stocks are getting ravaged right now yeah but you know yeah so congratulations like basically that company you guys were supposed to sell it for also like a huge amount like three billion or something like a couple years ago and it and it and it failed and then it turned out to be a blessing and disguise as that seems well well you should used should explain that that's a good story so we're working together and fe is like dude like i got some good news and he's like you know my last company we're gonna sell for we're gonna sell they're gonna sell it and i think i don't know what it was one point four billion or something like that right that's what the original sale price was yeah i think they put at one point four billion value i think the terms are something like they're gonna put in a billion dollars and value would get one point four you're gonna buy a majority of the company most of the early employees would have gotten liquidate data unless you're working there you would have gotten kind of whatever new grants right which would have been an amazing outcome anyways right oh why don't you deal built a company one point four billion that's you know that's a win that's a grand slam but then something happened what happened and how did that work out in your favor yeah so the company was an international company a chinese company and twenty sixteen the elections happened and you know politics kinda changed a little bit and think in that process like it started looking like man this is like not gonna go through like they're not gonna be able to get approval in the us for a foreign entity to kinda buy this thing and so that happened and then there's some time you know every contract when a sale what happens there's it's like all these triggers right like hey better complete by so and so date if it doesn't happen then you know whatever the contract might end and i think in that time i mean i that and i was working with you but you know every time i talk to somebody there they were like dude we're still crushing it rip growing and it's still kinda scaling up and so it looked like the deal is not gonna happen but the company had like multiplied in value during that time and so now there's like all this leverage and the company side to be like well don't actually need this sale right like we're a lot bigger than what that value was and i think they turned it into an investment instead with like non voting or you know some some kind of distinction there and we ended up getting some liquidity then which was fantastic it was like over a billion dollars like felt great i felt like that was the exit felt like that changed you know kind of what i could do in my life in terms of where i spend my time but then they just kept growing the company kept building and they continued down the path they partnered with k k r and you know brought on i think harold is on you know kind of the executive team now he's a seasoned vet in the industry and they've just continued just to kinda you know skyrocket and i don't know the they took device to to dumb it down app love is basically like they you guys helped invent advertisements that you see in the middle of iphone games correct yeah so we started as an ad tech platform that's when i was there and you know then after that they brought up you know kind of a the gaming side so they have a gaming studio which generates a lot of revenue if you think of them as like almost like a first party game raider now that's where i think the company gone in the part they bought machine zone right so they they acquired a bunch of studios they have their own studio so they're almost more a gaming company than a mobile ad network now so that's kinda crazy but the funny part is i remember you telling me like oh you know we kinda did this sale then a piece of paper is gonna go sit on someone's desk trump comes into office and now you know i it was a chinese company a chinese company buying this but anything that's over a billion dollars i believe there's some rule that it has to get like you know a certain type of approval for the transaction to go through and then it just sat there for like i don't know how many months six months nine months something like that and then when they came out of that he's like yeah by the way like we kinda get the best of both worlds they made you know their buyout turned into a minority investment we still got the money but we get this free roll of great how big can we rebuild this and then fast forward a few years and it goes public at like we just kinda twenty times the value you know we just kinda skipped over something pretty amazing which is he kinda was casual about it you guys both were basically you built this ad network that was doing wonderfully huge company and like i'm gonna say it in the same way but basically you saw which game for doing cool and you go we're just gonna make games kinda like that and make them popular because we already know what's popular before even the people making games know it's popular and now you may call your for making games i that's pretty astounding right yeah i mean i saw all this from the outside but like there's some key players in the company that i think were really instrumental on this there's this guy raf he like when when i you know when we kinda created logan and when we working on the product before app logan this guy was just like somebody adam knew he knew his brother he had worked with them before he was like this nineteen year old guy he's not gonna go to college he's you know all he wants to do is like do something big and play video game so like he's been all day all night playing street fighter but then he would talk to every single kind of japanese mobile gaming company all night and he would just grind and it was an awesome environment i mean i'm kinda like the person were like i get really excited about something that's all i wanna do that's all i was doing at the time so i'm at the office raf at the office you know we spend all night i'm hearing in his conversations i get pumped up about it and then kinda during the day we're building all these things and you just saw people everywhere in the company that wanted to do something big and when i got it so raf i think at some point in this ad network was like i i wanna build games they had built this thing called line studios within i don't think it was very big at the start like it was kind of like some small games but know raf i think he probably gets a lot of the credit to i kinda spear hitting that and like just wanting to do it and you know when i looked at the s one and kind of like dug into it it's like think it's like half the business now you know there's always obviously details on how you determine where the business but i think it's like half the company which is incredible right like started with this ad network and then you know in two to three years kind of towards the end of of this going public era she have been built up the second part of the business is also mad and you and the guy who started eleven i mean it was a a few of you guys but like the main guy at his name adam right yeah adam and basically he had like a i don't know if it was my or very successful outcome at another thing and didn't you say that he put in like four million dollars of his own money which i don't know if that was a lot or a little bit him but a pretty substantial amount of his own money and you guys kinda like dick around for like two years like point like would say that like well let's try this and it didn't work and you're like let's just go play video games and think about it like like wasn't that like something like that we're like i we'll figure it out yeah i mean adam john and andrew were like the three c founders that like did work together before they have some done a couple of other companies that did well i mean john is like nobody knows john but john is like he worked on the first ad server on the internet i believe that got picked up by i double click and you know kind of that went on to google and then he worked at like the he had done all these different roles he's like technical but then very marketing focus very product focus and you know so it's like he was just an interesting person to having in the mix and then adam is like get already kind of know he started i think in equities trading in the chicago stock exchange and then gotten into you know ads and marketing and then it had built a company i believe he was called and i can't remember they said game flyer or you know something like that and it was like probably we really good outcome but then not where you know it wasn't like a massive outcome where he he's like oh i retire forever and i can you know like this is all i wanna do and i i've kinda made it and in the first couple of conversations with them i remember walking down university avenue with them and he was just like i wanna make something so big that i can walk down this street and people would know me and it's like university avenue in palo alto to for people to know you you must have done something like really big right it's like every who's who and tech walks down there and i was like okay get wants to kinda like take a really big shot but the them three put in the initial funding i think it was like around four or five million bucks if i remember correctly but it was a lot in this sense that it gave us many years of runway to work on whatever we started with one project called style page we did that for like nine months that was kind of like pinterest we really quickly realized we're like you know five dudes in like palo alto with no fashion sense trying to build a fashion website this is not gonna work very well yeah like you know just wrangler jeans dot com it's that easy that's your website where you give us happy you know get you add a pinterest or find lead jeans yeah exactly and and then we make mess around with a lot of different ideas and some of them weren't very good and i think sean we we dealt with this a lot right like you get excited about something because you have to come up with an idea you make it you're not really that confident with it before you even launch you're like this is trash i don't i don't even want this anymore to get it away from me and so there was definitely some of that yeah but you you would the i think one of the things worth mentioning is that you which i think it's worth mentioning because i remember every time i built a company i'm always like well this is just how i'm doing it it's probably real wrong but like don't know the smart people probably do it this other way and i remember you i i'm feeling very comforted when you told me like yeah i love when we went through nine ideas you know is it this it that is it this is that i'm like you know some false hopes of like kinda works on now it's not gonna work out and then in between you're like yeah there were some days we just came to the office we didn't have the idea to work on and so we just played fifa for a bunch of hours and we would go eat talk come back place some more fifa and then would go home and like there were days like weeks like that and i remember thinking alright there's probably not the like the method you should choose but like it reminded me that like success is not so glamorous like you know they're show in the movies where it's like i have the idea i'm a visionary i got it right away from day one then we work hard and we just a b c d e it's done you know and so i don't know is that a fair representation of what you with what you experienced yes it's definitely nonlinear linear i mean you can work really really hard for a long time and feel like you've made zero progress and you could be doing all the right stuff you could be making the right calls and the other challenges you don't know like you don't get feedback right away on the things you're doing or are good i mean you get customer feedback but you don't get this kinda made up feedback that like the general type of things i'm working on are gonna kind of work and hit and i mean style page was kind of one idea that we really dug ourselves into that everything between style page and then loving and the ad network was just like you know is just like kinda really small projects that you're not super confident about you're trying to find some edge you're trying to learn something and you know mobile was just getting big android was getting big there's some opportunities there but you just don't know you know it's like how vr is today you're like i believe this gonna be a lot bigger in the future what is exactly what people are gonna do it's really hard to predict and when you tell somebody they usually go nobody's gonna do that like well if nobody can predict these behaviors how do we build them you have to have this kind of like blind conviction towards something and also like get that right so it's take yeah you need you don't need to love you gotta pick the right thing this is guy adam how do you how do say adam's last name t so far adam f he's the ceo now and from what i've read about him i don't know him he seems like a wonderful ceo like the glass door of reviews are great he was all these awards he seems like a lovely guy he interview them and then but what you're describing is like a bunch of really like relaxed calm people just like i'm i'm kind of dismissing it but not really like you guys are just kinda messing around and like trying to hope yeah which isn't of course that's not the reality but how did this guy go from being this like kinda relax calm dude just trying to hang out and find a hit to leading a twenty billion dollar publicly traded company i mean and when i look mean looks pretty polished it looks like a good good guy that that's like a pretty amazing transformation yeah and so i i think relaxes is probably the wrong the wrong word i mean we were intense when we play fifa it was like i'm gonna beat you eight times at row it wasn't casual game of fifa so everything was competitive and we would play in mobile games competitively that was a lot of our intro like app eleven when we started was actually an app where you could see what games and apps other people were playing in your social network it was like kinda like a feed of app that was the first iteration of backlog and it was because we just wanted to see what people were playing because we wanted to kinda get those games and be competitive within it so he's always been competitive i think you really see that in him and but you guys used to say like like fe work schedule is like roll into the office at eleven lunch with the crew catch up on what people are have to just starts getting humming or you know does a couple meetings starts getting hung around three four and then basically like by like eight pm to three am is when for condos work and then he repeats the next day and so for i remember in our company there's was a bunch of people who were just you know regular human beings that would work in a nine to five and then they would go turn off the brain and go home and like for some of it was really hard to have a boss and kind of like a leader who's on a completely schedule some people were totally fine with it they they made it work and then we recruited a bunch of like raf type dudes who are like oh cool we stay up till three am here like great that's my optimal schedule too like i i'm down with that and so but at loving you had told me that adam was the opposite he was coming at and nine leave at four or five whatever he's got like five kids i think and like every minute was efficient whereas i gotta say like where you work it's not that every minute is like boom i'm doing this this this like even at our company we would take video game breaks every day at four pm would go play super smash for an hour right like you had very opposite styles but you guys made it work yeah i think adam is like make every minute count and you see that in how we like operates and that's why he's the ceo of a twenty billion dollar companies because everything happens very fast very efficiently like when a decision is made the whole company knows about it when movements happening it's immediate it's like make decisions fast be strong with your kind of movements you know outside of it follow through with it quickly like those are qualities i think are really really critical and a ceo i mean for me it's like i wanna make obviously every everyday count like i work a lot when i'm excited about something and the app eleven times was that when something's growing i take it seriously but you know i know that creative work is like it happens in kind of these moments of flow if you get two or three good flow states a week i feel like you produce a lot and i think most developers or creative people or builders don't feel this like not every hour is super efficient but there's there's sometimes times where maybe it's because you did all this stuff to build up to it or you got the right conditions but do you hit like three or four of those week man you're you're really you know humming you're producing a lot and a lot of impacts happening and so i always focus on impact and know i think it was a good pairing because i would just work super hard to go and tackle the next like tech technology barrier with my team and then the next morning adam would just drive a bunch of traffic but by the time i rolled in at noon and it was like we knew the test or not and that was like awesome just to feel the first time i've ever felt somebody like take control of growth and like literally say actually we're gonna get this answer today and obviously if you have like you know a good bank account and you can kinda fund it you can spend money to make your answers happen faster we got a lot of cycles in in those you know times we were building these crap apps we didn't waste like a year building some garbage app because very quickly we knew it wasn't gonna work and why and we tried all the variants of it and we got we had to like confidence that we were done with that idea like oh we tried it it's not gonna work whatever lingering about this you know so let let's switch the ideas so me and you do a call every week is one hour and it's called the cool shit hour every time i do it i'm like damn i wish i recorded that for myself but also people would love this and so i i wanna do that basically you guys do this every week yeah we've sometimes missed some weeks but yeah know had kid and stuff like that but we've been doing it pretty regularly for a couple ever since he left you know twitch was like well i still wanna hang out and keep in touch it's like the best part of when we used to work together was just shooting the shit about stuff that's cool and because fe kinda in his own words he told me this one was like i'm kind of in the first ten thousand people to try any new technology and like really dive deep and understand it because he does that he just sees a bunch of cool shit before the mainstream does and so my hack is well i'm never gonna be as smart as this guy never gonna understand technology i'm not gonna learn how to code but i can be friends with them and he could like explain it to me like i a kinder ga like i'm i'm really into this right now check this out watch watch this demo here try this out here open up this website watch this and so we do that and the the thing with most of my relationships including this podcast i'm talking at least fifty plus percent of the time because i'm a talker when i do the cool shit hours was with forgot i'm like i just sit back into my desk and i like take notes as like oh this is cool and i only stop to ask clarifying questions i'm like wait how does that work so i wanna jump into some of those things so we'll keep it open ended i have a few that i know you're interested i can guide us there but let's start with open ended which is what are some things that are just cool or interesting to you doesn't have to be like something you're working on necessarily but where's is fe con attention right now what stuff has caught your eye yeah i would say there's probably three major things one is in the hardware space there's just there's just this trend that i feel like i can't get out of my mind which is you know commodity hardware whether it's like a raspberry pi kind of a simple device like that or off the shelf gears and things like that plus software like machine learning equals very advanced piece of hardware send raspberry pi yeah well i i don't know what the application is but it's basically like a fifty dollar i i don't remember how much it cost now it's it's thirty dollar computer it's like a little board and it's important because now in a developer previously they would have had to design their own little small computer board to go build a small like you know if you wanted to build roomba you'd have to go design a little computer to put in the roomba then design the roomba now you can kinda go pick up this like computer that's just a little bored and you could put it into anything like you know it took half your company away of what you needed to do to make this happen who makes raspberry very but it makes a company called ada fruit i believe but they're they're like an independent company they're like be one of the biggest obvious maker space companies around because dave you know i think they've sold like i wanna say like a hundred million of these devices now and is crushing it that just the believe as well so so what's what's an example of something that you or somebody has built with a raspberry pie just so people have a a tangible example so like there's another device of this from nvidia i'm using the nvidia jets and it's like a little version of a gpu but i basically have a little gpu plug to into my tv it has a webcam on it and you know we've messed around with some like c estimation so like you know you can open my tv and you could basically stand there and a little ball will come and if you hit that ball like it'll go blue or copy you like a a connect like an xbox connect just made like a like version of it and then we kinda did some hand gestures where if you you know we basically i think that this this and then this is kinda like the three gestures and we could kinda of read that on the other side and so and he basically just put up like you put up like a one or two or a three basically right yeah and this was for me like you know i like to go and mess around with it my idea if i wanted to do it this as an idea i would do like the best fitness product would be you buy this little device it plugs into your tv because everybody has a tv on the wall now your tv is just awesome fitness game and you could just do like everything i think i wanted to call it like fit camera or you know something like that but instead of like that company that sold to lulu lemon for like five hundred or six hundred mirrors right everything yeah exactly your hundred thousand dollar right you hardware for thousands of dollars do you have to mount onto your wall well you already have a screen on your wall called your tv what if you could just turn it into something smart that's one of the like for thirty dollars instead of three thousand dollars come have like a mere competitor called tempo i pay fifty bucks a month for the programming and then two grand for the machine yeah yeah and it's basically a flat screen tv with they don't call it a camera because they i don't wanna freak people out because like you work out like i work out shirtless in my underwear basically so they don't call a camera but they call a sensor and it could like tell you if your are your poses in good form or not good form and it counts your pose it counts your rep so you can compete pretty cool yeah and so that's one i'm gonna tell you about this other company i invested in them but i i just really really excited about it so i'm gonna tell you guys this company called neurology they make a brain computer interface so this sounds like feature but it it's now it's basically a device and i to wish i had it next to me but you just put it on your head you can go it if you want i wanna i wanna see if it's if it's within the room good it's not go in the room i'll to the other ones or so okay go being and sam we'll just talk for a second yeah so it'll be good for you youtube sean you know how you know how on talk shows like morning shows they have a guest come in and they're like here's the latest products that you can buy for your kids this holiday season and they're at a table and they go this product is this this is a as they set it up they go to the next one that's what her kinda is right now basically is that segment where someone is just like has placed like eight cool things on the table and they're just going from thing to thing to thing just drop and bonds and i'm like oh great cool got it next you know what i mean yeah that's what's going on right is this is fe q competitor where he just picks up objects and he's like this is a fantastic holiday gift for the family yeah and so this is where you know kind of like developers and what whatnot still but this is what the device looks like and kinda give you guys a closer look but you could see these little probe looking things so this will basically on a rest on your head like that and what this does is it listens to ee g waves happening in your brain and i think there's many different wavelengths but you know these guys have identified some set of them and so why why is this kind of relate to the story we're talking about there's a little computer that's inside here that you know like wouldn't have been able to happen ten years ago and so because you could put a little computer here that has wifi on it that can take these signals in and transmit it to the internet this device is viable now and you could so so you you wear that and it helps measure your like what focus or you're kind of are your in flow it's it's kinda like a a fitbit in some way for your brain or what so the device itself first takes in raw signals so it can detect a lot of stuff they've added some machine learning right so the second part they added software and they pre programmed all these different actions so there's some stuff like are you focused right now are you calm right now kind of things like that are you gonna enter a sleeping state they can detect all of these conditions but there's other things like that i'm really excited about where it can detect if you think about like pinching your left hand like if you think about doing this after don't do it it could pick up that signal or if you think about smoothing your hand your right arm it could pick up that signal specifically and so you know you could think of this as both a receive state and detect things but also as an interface to kind of you know without having to move a muscle just thinking about a muscle change change the without going and picking up the remote so the guy made this is like seventeen right for eighteen i i i don't know his age i think he's a little bit older than that but yeah the you know there's his guy alex i believe he has a neuroscience background and the ceo's is his guy a aj and know what's funny is i bought this device as a person right like i'm just like i bought this device i think i was probably in the first hundred or two hundred to buy it and then i was like i sent him a message and i'm like i love this i'm like an investor like can i talk to you guys and i don't think they responded to me and then then i joined they had they sent a message like hey do you wanna schedule like like customer call like they were doing customer discovery not my sweet but like joined this customer discovery called do the whole thing then at the end i'm like dude i really love this like this is me there's a bunch of stuff about me not some random but like i'm like really excited about this like i wanna invest like and then he was like still kinda like okay like kind of like aggressive in the customer call to kinda get this but then we followed up after i talk to him and ended up investing a little bit of money into them but i love these devices i love these things where it's like small piece of commodity hardware plus advanced machine learning equals potentially massive new output right like you know and i can go into some random ideas on how i would use this but also so this is called we we gotta make sure we let everyone know it's called so their website is dot c their website is so awesome when i'm on this it okay so it's basically what this kinda looks like it basically it looks like i set of headphones but you don't put it on your ear you put it up on your head a little bit it costs i think nine hundred dollars and they claim that they manage your focus with music and the you minimize distractions and shifts your focus and hacks your flow this is a brilliant website i almost would buy this just because like it looks so mysterious is the right way maybe i mean it's definitely something new and early and you know when people say like hey we're gonna manage your flow state you always you know what do we all do we kinda call bush bullshit it on it right you're like wait like are you gonna do that are you gonna half my body right and so you get a lot of snake oil in the world there but this device it can for sure detect when i'm focused it can detect when i'm calm and different points and i've programmed it to basically like when i haven't connected to my computer i can move my desktop around or you know i basically wanted to like see can i open brave from right like and open an application by thinking about something and i can do that that's miraculous to me like that's that's like read about in a book somewhere and then it was in the jets maybe but it it doesn't it didn't really exist can you really do that so you could think yourself like move the cursor and it works do you think move it do you think open chrome what do you actually think of to get it to happen yeah so basically i programmed it to these kinda thinking of motor functions so they have these pre programmed like forty or eighty motor functions like push pull move your right arm move your left arm move your index finger like kinda and you you don't move it just think about that and then you do a little training step so like it just tells you think about moving your index finger and then stop thinking about it and and so it does like a little machine learning loop like one iterations or whatever and then you know again this is a developer device too but i can get it to run some arbitrary code when i think about my index exactly gotcha gotcha dude i'm so so excited to give this to my dog or to like an eight god go to sleep boom well we used to make fun of craig clement gave on here and he's like best idea he had three ideas at the end is his best idea was dog vr and we were like that's the stupidest idea but this is actually better because this would be like a way to communicate with a dog if you could get the dog to train it but you i don't know that seems little difficult alright forget forgot so that was the first one which is cheap commodity hardware that now lets a software programmer like make hardware work without having to have a lab and a in you know physical material engineering making motherboard boards and do all this alright that's one one trend what are some others so the second trend i mean we're all into this but obviously the crypto world there's just a lot of fun activity happening there and i've just you know it's one of those things where you just see it happening and you wanna be a part of it and you read about it and you're building stuff but you know was working with you and then i was working that twitch i haven't really built anything in this space and so you know just recently i would say the last six months i've just been writing no solidity code trying to think about what kind of applications to build what's interesting and my entire view of everything is there is these massive cycles then these hype cycles go away which is obviously what happens right when that kind of this massive pipe happens then there's a stopping point there where the real building begins and the real value would be created and all of these kind of industries flow like that we crypto these kind of hardware spaces machine learning back in the day and so that's where we are in the decentralized and crypto world right now and all i wanna do is build very valuable legitimate products that you're of a real purpose and kinda go from there and you know and so so let's talk about crypto real quick so you you can apologize now for not including me in the ether crowds sale which i know you were on top of at the time you bought in the actual crowds sale or right after i bought a little bit after the crowds sale but it was like single digit dollars it was very cheap i'm pretty sure i set it out loud at lunch every know did i remember you're saying that and i was like i remember thinking ethereum dumb name like that's that's like a weird name normal people aren't gonna want to own ethereum like that seems weird literally that was my my my dumbass thinking and then like every you know year since then i sort of think about why don't i just listen more to for fe kind why don't i just do the things he says to stop thinking for myself a little bit so so that's kind of where i'm at so you you initially bought some crypto i remember sitting next to you while you were buying you know random mass you know good good stuff and then the shit coins also just fuck around seeing what's what and then you sort of showed me what's going on in d defy so if people don't know here's how i'll explain d defy and then you tell me what you would say so today there's like the normal financial system there's a stock market there's banks you can go drive and park and walk into when you walk into that bank you can say hey here's my money store it safely for me like put it in a savings account give me some interest maybe or i'd like to take a loan out and then they say great let's just decide if you are credit worthy if you can get a loan and how much you can get so that's the traditional financial system like in a nutshell the simplified version there's a parallel like you know parallel universe where all those same things have been built through code now instead of by law right so we used to write down you know contracts and put them in you know lawyers would write the contracts and now programmers write the contract so you could do all those same things so you've showed me tools and had me got me set up where you take your crypto money and you can put it in a savings account and you can earn five percent ten percent a year of yields so you earn much better interest rates you can lend it to other people or you can take loans and get loans for things so explain kind of like maybe what part is most interesting to you or give an example of something you've done with crypto where you're actually not just like speculating in the in the def defy space but you're actually using this alternate financial system i'm sure what's what what's an example of what what you're just saying what's like your fair platform for that so fe showed me a couple that i i like so you know so one is compound right so it's compound dot finance is a website you go to and what it says is hey great you have ether you don't wanna sell your ether but so i did a very simple loan i went to compound finance i stake or basically like i put up ether that i own i said great here's let's say a hundred ether and then it says great you can you can just lend that out to other people who wanna borrow ether and i you can earn this percent annually and you know if you if i go wells fargo i'm gonna go get point o zero zero one percent you know a year's on my savings account whereas with this it was like you can get seven percent a year or five percent a year like you know actually like a decent saving a decent interest rate or i could say great i put my hundred ether up and i'd like to borrow some of this other coin so what i did just as a test of the system i said can i get a loan off my cryptocurrency so i put up ether to borrow usd dc which is a a a stable coin made by coinbase which basically is supposed to be one usd dc is supposed to always be one dollar so i got usd dc and then i went to coinbase and i sold my usd dc and i got dollars and i said wow i i just put up i just like basically showed that i have this ether and i locked up ether into this account for temporarily as long as i want and i got a us dollar loan that i could go use to go buy you know a pizza right now if i want to and i was like well that's pretty sweet i never had to talk to a banker fell out an application to a credit check i didn't have to do anything and i was able to get a loan and now what a lot of people do is they do that they they put you through up they get a loan of some stable coin they use a stable going to buy more ether or to go buy some other coin and kind of gamble like kinda like leveraged gambling so there's other things you can do but i just did a really simple one with where fe kind be showing yeah and i think lending is a big part of it i mean lending is dangerous in many ways like you know i i look at lending as like this is bad that's my first reaction to any lending thing because people do that right they basically take it in the elaborate if you take it any purpose behind it and your long term holder of something that makes a lot of sense right like you can kinda do that and and the reason i find d defy exciting is you could take all the rules that you've seen get destroyed in like you know the two thousand eight crash or have the dot com crash and you could put a contract where that can't happen and so for example there's this a protocol called liquidity protocol it's a new protocol they do zero percent interest loans on your ease so you can put up ease you take a zero percent loan and what they've done is they've created this system where they have a stability pool that will liquidate people if they go below their collateral collaboration ratio and so what happens been explain that in simple terms so okay so how do i how do i get how do because they're not doing a credit check because they're not asking for my w two income how do they make sure that this loan eventually gets paid back how do they do that so you put in let's say a one hundred ethereum right so you put in some amount that has a dollar value today and they let you take out their token called la usd it's like a usd stable coin so now you have this stable coin you can trade it for other stable coins or other coins or take it to coinbase base you know using whatever mechanism and kind of get it to dollars what you've done is you'd put up your ethereum and you have to basically maintain some what they call collateral ratio like you have to be over the lending amount by at least ten percent otherwise you're gonna get liquid and the action of liquid dating means somebody will go and take your az ethereum and buy it for a discount because they have to do this liquidation task and you know that's the risk you're putting this collateral up like you would in another case now so it's like if you know i take a mortgage out i can't make my mortgage payments because i lost my job well the bank has my house says collateral they can fore close on my house it's the same concept but instead of a physical house it's whatever collateral you put up initially to get the loan your stake right and so the the danger is i put up ethereum the price of ethereum is very volatile it goes down a lot i was aggressive with my ratio and i kinda went below this number and i got liquidate i still have my loan amount right so it's but there's obviously risks with these platforms like there would be a risk of buying you know investment property and not being able to make rent on it or not be able to make mortgage what i like about it is underneath where in two thousand and eight the bankers just went to the government and whoever else and was like we need new rules right now where we're dying and so you kinda invent new rules this rule is built into the protocol if you're at below this ratio some liquid can come in and and be the liquid you can't you don't get a choice of hey is this gonna happen or not it's encoded and so when you build you know financial products with you know directly encoded values it makes it so that it's gonna happen whether it's a good situation for you or not whether they like you know how you presented yourself not like you know and and having gone through you know bad times as a founder and gone through bad credit like i don't have good credit today still it's like have a lot of money in the bank and sometimes i i can't go get a credit card because like literally my credit still sucks from like whatever seven years ago or five years ago however long ago those problems were and if one little things happen like i had a small credit card that i forgot about is literally a three hundred dollar thing i missed some like yearly you know payment fee because you know every year you got that fee man showed up on my credit oh that's a huge thing doesn't matter who you really are what you can do if that financial system sucks if you have the ability to kind of do some of these actions i believe you should be able to do them and that's the most interesting thing about d defy is so that's information you know that's the general like that's a good i think general overview because most people don't really understand what what what is even the point of this how does this work let's go specific are you doing anything cool with do you have any good trades going are you making money doing this are you are you actually doing anything in the d device space right now i think uni swap is probably one of the my favorite companies in this space and i think we've talked about this a little bit but what uni swap did and i'll give you kind of the simple version of it is usually when you wanted a trade two assets you had to create a marketplace so let's say i have one sean coin and i wanna sell it i need sam to show up and buy that sean coin right and if there aren't two sides and they don't agree on the price this trade won't happen and what uni swap did and i think there were some others before but uni swap has become the biggest player in this space is they created a one sided trading market where you know a buyer or seller can show up and they're trading against what's called a liquidity pool the investors come in and put in both sides of the trademark marketplace so like one ethereum and three thousand dollars would create like let's say a liquidity pool then sean you can just show up and see i wanna set and you're gonna sell against this pool you don't need another side the pool is always the other side and they've created a simple algorithm they call it like you know an am and automated market maker where you know they wanna keep the price close and depending on how much liquidity there is and how much you're willing to sell it's gonna slip away from that amount and that's where the price movements were and and you're in those pools you were saying making good money by being the liquidity pool give us a what what what was the yield you could get let's say you put it thousand dollars in what were you making being the liquidity provider so obviously in the earlier days of uni municipal swap the pool yields were very high like you could see a hundred percent plus unlike fairly good assets and and it's really important to think about you have two sides of market right so if you have if you're into ethereum and us dollar pool when if ethereum is going up you're like losing some of it right because you're giving it away yeah kind of you kinda like receive basically dollars and you know so if you want to hold a lot of ethereum long run doesn't really make sense to be in some of these pools that are una aligned so i always try to find things that are connected together so like two stable coin pools a usd dc and dive pool that does you know anywhere from like eight to fifteen percent and that's been like that on the low end of the spectrum for the last year plus i mean i'm willing effectively what you know we'll call dollars on both sides of the puzzle and people need to trade between these assets and i'm willing to be the trade partner for them along with a lot of other people and you basically get a little bit of a fee and that's where the liquidity pool makes money so holding you know dollar on this side or dollar on this side feels good if there something very well aligned with the ethereum so do you believe ethereum and bitcoin will kind of together flow upwards that could be a very good pool for you to kind of take what they call rap bitcoin and ethereum and be in that pool and uni what made all this happen from the consumer side to make a one side of trade but also as an investor to come into a liquidity pool and say hey i'm willing to kind put up both of these assets and then i wanna make some fees as people do this right okay alright so that's that's good i think was little probably little too complicated for the general audience at this point so saying to i'm wearing a harvard shirt that's about it oh sorry my bad he yes it's just a t shirt i got one more anyone can buy it anyway one more in a cooking space and i think sam will love let love show ash sean i told you about this book i read about vertical farming and you know basically like i read wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute you guys just for talking about crypto stuff and then he just said i've got something i think sam well like farming yeah really bad think of a red white to you i like it too we we this was one of our cool shit hours was he's like i came in think it he's gonna tell me about you know w and i'm like oh fuck i gotta go look up all these acronyms she's like no vertical farming i was like oh brilliant tell me about it right because fe got a wide range some days i remember early on at when we're working together he's like when uber had just kind of was getting big he's like i'm thinking he's like got a bunch of friends who are kind of like you not doing a whole lot nowadays i'm thinking about just renting like five buying five cars and just having them like run a fleet like i think i could just make x dollars doing zero work by running my own little taxi fleet on uber or he was like you know there's these i forgot what it was a float spas or cryo tank company what was that one that you were really into yeah i i you know the cryo tanks or something that you know if you have bad joints like me it it's like a you know night and day difference on how your body feels and so you know like i still wanna put one in and i think in the lab that i'm spinning up over here we'll get to that probably at some point but what what's the what's this what's said lab i'm i'm building a hardware and robotics lab here in san francisco as a part of f dot and you know the idea is software you can do in a coffee shop in a living room but you can't really build any one of these even off the shelf hardware products in your living room and so what i wanna do is take a lot of founders who are interested or future founders we're interested in building these ideas i'm gonna have a machine shop and an electronic shop and a robotic shop in this facility be in this iconic location and my goal is just to get like a bunch of talented hungry people in this roof and just have like great energy and built together and so you see these companies form out of universities because they have two things they have a shop there that you can access mostly for free and then they have people in the shop that turns into your community like as a kid i can just show up and stand next to you while you're doing something and you go you don't like give me a weird look you oh you wanna you know how to use no okay let me show you like that little bit might be the difference between you won't willing to try and kinda of get into a field or not and where are you support that what was that where where in the city you said it's iconic location can you see we're looking at a place at fort mason in san francisco so it's not complete yet but that's kind of like for me like the iconic locations or i can see the golden gate bridge i can be on the water so we've explored stuff on the piers in general in chrissy field fort mason like these locations when i go there i get excited you know like going to monk inferno was a fantastic office but now outside it wasn't that great like soma mission these areas i don't get excited when i go there and i usually don't go over there too much how much are you willing to invest in to to sink into this thing to make it interesting it's gonna be a lot it'll probably cost about half a million bucks a year just to even like have the base building in place and you know my guess is it'll be double that just from you know the people that i wanna bring in and kind of investments i wanna do and what i wanna support i wanna like i i actually ran a plastic fabrication shop and a small machine shop a long time ago and so i've done a lot of this i've welded and know i've worked on cars so like i actually have a lot of this interest and i'm more excited to have my own cnc in my own machines and things to work with as well so dude you're so cool yeah so sam the reason i said you're gonna like this it idea end companies because i don't listen to very many podcasts but i do i do listen to this podcast guys guess this is probably we the only one of this this is not clearly maybe we're i get that test deal to the mood i'm not even just pam you guys sean i mean you know me i'm not i'm gonna tell you like it is but i really do listen to you guys want i i'm pretty sure you didn't listen at the beginning when i just interviewing and then now that it's idea it's his shooting the shit sam here he's listening now yeah and so you talked about like hey you know you you just sold the company by the way congratulations to you as well and you were talking about how like you wanna get your hands kinda into things and you wanna like do some of so i was okay if i ever get back on the bottom until tell sam about this idea and i'm by the way i'm sitting here taking notes so cross all this out and so i read this book and this book was talking about vertical farming i think i don't i don't know i don't remember the name of the book but basically know the first couple of chapters it really talks about what the major problem in the us is as you know as you're producing a lot of food and the world right the world went from think three billion people a hundred years ago to like almost eight billion now like a pretty massive difference in like kind of how many people are on the world you're starting to see effects like we see the wildfire here in california you hear about all these things and so what what's happening is as you start farming in soil you basically destroy the soil and after some period of time you get no yield out of the soil and so about ten years ago fifteen years ago vertical farming got very popular as a way to put food production closer to cities like new york city requires you know millions of acres outside of new york city to support it it make sense for that to be in the city but how do you do that well you could put it in these buildings you could put it under kind of uv lights and you could drive water through it through hydro hypersonic and it's got really popular a lot of people invested in it so it's kind of a vertical farm it's for someone like me who's zero zero nature knowledge what what would how did make paint picture what is a vertical farm bro so have you never grown a weed in your in your apartment no i don't smoke weed and never grew weed doctor drugs i don't i don't i don't die there but i feel like every sixteen year has at least grown one pot plant at red high school yeah so you know you know you think about plants in the ground because they need kind of nutrients and soil but really they just need some of those nutrients and you could just put them as long as you deliver them to the roots it's gonna pull that in and so people figured out hey you can grow stuff without soil and that that's a huge that's just as a big unlock because it doesn't have to go in the ground thing is to use water right correct to use water and there's been more advances now where it's not just water but it's like you know i think they call it aero po but it's just missed it right so it's kind of like more yield against the root and you know you still have to power it with sunlight so you could put it inside a warehouse but you need sunlight and so big uv lights was kind of the strategy and so phase one of vertical farming was we're gonna put them in high rises we're gonna take some floors and we're gonna turn them into a farm floor and that should support the building and these are normally the pictures that you see what people are kind of dreaming about vertical farming it's like a giant building where a bunch of them are farms and it looks cool but in practice it was like kind of a warehouse like a data center and you know that's where it ended end up living and i i think that's fine the the reason these guys got i got excited about they're called ne farms and what they do is they basically have direct to consumer lettuce micro greens and tomatoes that's what they sell you and so you know they started kind of in a different phase like kind of like hey we're building cool tech like we've been in this sean before where you're excited about computer vision and doing this thing but actually along the way they realized well we don't really wanna license out our thing can't franchises this we can't do like all these other ideas add people actually just want this and what if we could put up a form near you and i think they have their first form and idaho and they just have a monthly subscription to get lettuce and tomatoes and these things show up to your door and i mean today they do same day of harvest to delivery because they have kinda taken the process down to this simple thing they have this basic form and if you could see some of the pictures that they have on their website of what their farm looks like but it looks like a little data center it's like a rack of of lettuce there's a little light that will kind of rotate and like give it sunlight light and on the top there's a mister that kind of like you know what what's call what's this call nebula farms nebula b u l l a m farms and you know like if you ever get a chance to go taste some vertical farmed lettuce you will notice the taste difference like it is not the same lettuce you're like wait lettuce has taste it is good kris like it actually makes a huge difference in the quality of product and i believe they can make this happen you know same day harvest to delivery for a large part of america so with they're on their website it says less water so you use ninety eight percent less water and in places like california where there's like drought water shortages that's a big deal no pesticides because it's an indoor sort of controlled environment no soils to no bugs right that's why you don't need to this up right it says less human handling i don't know about that so always fresh and basically the the goal would be hey here's a eco friendly thing but also this taste this produce it tastes better and and you've actually had it so what's the noble bullshit like is it if i didn't know blind taste test would i be able to tell the difference between these two or what yeah and and we when we should do this like you know there's a couple of other brands that have gotten popular that you can pick up in stores i think there's one called plenty that shows up in stores and i think there's a lot of people that have wanted to do this but if the business isn't gonna work the tech is not gonna hold it right like that's the same thing as soft like this problem exists everywhere and so you're building some emerging texting thing you can't keep talking about how great the tech is and so the direct to consumer angle it resonated with me because it's like okay i've seen gross delivery i've seen some of these things where you could get like fruit in a box well if you can produce the fruit yourself like you just have a machine that can produce fruit that's the vertical form well why don't you become the biggest farm in america really quickly by kind of going city to citi and kind of doing that and you've seen uber do that we've seen kind of all these right you could really deal you you know kind of build the biggest form in america now right sarah just now the way that he was describing i'm like alright they're mailing plants that's not that i mean yeah that's like it's they're okay it's like different lettuce it's it's it's like a a candle it's like those candles that have a ring in in in the bottom when you melt the candles it's like a sticky novelty kind type of thing it's cool once or twice but the way that you're describing it now i think i think what you're really good at is something i'm not as good at which is like you're really good at breaking your frame and like changing i don't know if i'm even phrasing this correctly but trying of changing the whole paradigm which is like no no no we're gonna build the largest farm in the world and now when you say that i think man so you're just gonna have to buy all this land and have this massive huge feel but you're kind saying like oh but by the way by farm i mean it's like these little small things in every convenience store in america do you know what i mean yeah and that that's kind of like the the trade off here which is you know a farm that's like maybe you know in a fifty thousand square foot building that might be like you know thousands or tens of thousands of like land acres that you're replacing because vertical farming does many things it reduces of water but it also compact how much space you need to do the action so instead of buying large masses of land reduces you can buy warehouses or facilities closer to the city center and serve that area right and so if you can be near like a city like austin or san francisco you can kinda serve that city kind of efficiently with kind of a smaller you know kind of smaller brilliant yeah that's so cool and dude like i think what you're really good like when i'm around you i feel so inspired and i wanna bring something up in a second that's related to this but basically like you are the type of i hate when we talk about san francisco it's a lovely place everyone needs to go but the type of people like you there was a large density of that in san francisco and i am not at all naturally like you but i felt i improved and just change my opinion on so many things that they're hanging out with people like you i don't know what we call that i think sean is a little bit more like you than than i am but we we also have a handful of friends that are like that and they just like you guys think about stuff in such a way where maybe it's like when i ask them when i asked to challenge myself to come up with an idea or think about what's the possibility of x y and z i put these constraints on where like well there's no way i could pull off this because that technology for this doesn't work or i'm not good enough to do this or but that's it's always been done x whereas when you think of stuff you're really good at being open minded and defaulting to like well let's actually that is kind of interesting let's play that out and you don't have these constraints of like being held back that a lot of normal people like me have i think do you know what i mean sean yeah i i think it's simpler than that i think for kind you know everybody uses their own frame of reference their own lens and he looks at things to the lens of a technologist so i think and i i i remember sitting down next to you and being like how did you get the way you are and you're were like well like i remember when i was five my dad bought home brought home like a printer and like we put it together or right that wasn't another the story like a computer or a printer when you're were like five or six years old yes since my earliest memories it was an xt computer it was kind of like you know not even dossier yet it was just like a screen and you put it together we booted it up and i remember he had like a disc that had you know you type like auto exec i was just a kid and you had to type a u t o e x e if i press enter i get to this like simulation football game and that's all i could do like you pick a play and it runs it for you you don't even you don't even actually play the game but like i remember that as the earliest memories and i mean i got started really young like i worked at a dot com when i was fifteen and just like my my hobbies ended up being very valuable like i wasn't a mute you know i'm not a musician where you know i would have had it made it really big it was like i was into computers and kinda of programming and doing things like that and those things just happened to have become very valuable especially in the bay area and that that kind of like when it itself to a lot of opportunity also something that you're gonna do with this what do you what are you calling your space again and call it founder inc that's like the company name so i i wanna like tell a quick story about that so back in two thousand and and sean i can't see your face so i can't see if you're i can't tell if you're on board with this story but do do you back in two thousand and thirteen so basically sean when don't you start as the mu inferno like the guy i joined at the end of twenty twelve so basically twenty thirteen is kind of the actual beginning so around that time i was working out of it i was i had just sold something and i i didn't make a lot of money but like a hundred grand let's say and i was looking to start something else and i found this guy named dave and he had a thing called founders dojo which was basically he rented an office it would he i don't know dave had a business that probably did half a million in sales and he probably profit hundred thousand dollars so he wasn't a rich rich guy but he had this office that he could spend three k on a month and he let me and like eight other people come and work out of his office and he we've heard about it to friends and friends like hey there's was a single he'll find or dojo they let him like people just worked there and it's a dig office it wasn't nice it was maybe six five hundred square feet and then down the street was the same thing but it was far fancier it was called monkey fern it was pretty much the exact same thing but like way better it was this guy named michael birch it was on the podcast and if you look the hip who made a billion dollars that sean did that episode and it was like guy who started and sold the company for hundreds of millions or close to a billion dollars and his like project was the same exact thing it was nice you know they had like you guys probably have like ton of thousands of dollars worth of interior decorating and and it was like really fancy but it was the same thing basically of like nerds and like weirdo and mis fits we all would come to the spaces and i would hang out at mu ford all the time and you guys sometimes came to our thing and we would we would d out to the stuff that people would make fun of like dave loved mee cat mee cat was basically a live streaming app which kinda like was the early technology and early behavior for even like a like a club house or or whatever and he would do this thing called a marathon he called it and he would mee cap for twenty four hours straight he would be in the office mee cad for twenty four hour straight and he would meet these other do and they would come and fly into our office and then it was just so weird like we did all these weird shit one time we created this thing called what do we call it coffee copy coffee rush we call it and you click a button and you get coffee inside like twenty minutes wherever you are in san francisco and all these just nerdy do little projects but it was like the best time of my life and it was the most one of the most formative it was the fun some of the best experiences ever had it as it relates to business and just like becoming a man and like tinkering with all these new things and having an open mind i think what you're setting up for con is like the next obviously this like the next iteration of that and i'm so fortunate that i've had people like you and and you guys have birch michael birch and i had dave gross i'm so fortunate that people like you guys exist in this world because these little silly things that like are fun and like that seems stupid on the outside and the fact that there's these grown adults who are thankfully wealthy enough and willing to bet their money to do this stuff it sounds outrageous and it sounds like a movie and i'm so happy it was part of it and it made such a huge difference it's meet this is it's a movie a hundred percent and those places you talk about so i know david gross plot as well and you know i used to go to another place growing up hacker dojo it was a mountain view and you know even growing up in silicon valley you didn't immediately have like a network like i don't know like a bunch of vcs is just from growing up here that's not actually not how it worked my blocked didn't have vcs not andy it was just normal people and you know you really didn't find people like yourself and so the internet changed a lot like it allowed people to connect with each other and find each other but you know the in person interactions they just operate differently and it's a lot more ad hoc like i remember you being at the monkey for no and a lot of other you know people that we would have work out of there it was cool because you could just walk by break up a random conversation talk about something and maybe it resulted in nothing and sometimes it would actually stick with you and it would be really important and so app love it it felt the same way early on when we were kinda doing these like you know random ideas it was like out we're just a bunch of mis fits together here that are just gonna go on this journey and that energy is hard to replace and it it was really fun and every time it's been there it's been really instrumental for me and like learning a lot like conversation during the lunch table at monkey and for no shape a lot about how people think what are you know what are ways to conduct yourself like just things even outside of right like you interact with a lot of different people and you could bring good energy to it and i think it's really critical and so i've been on this mission slightly before covid to kind of like build this facility but then and of covid happened and you know obviously like it's good in terms of like new buildings new opportunities cheaper rent here in the city great but i think this thing is kind of necessary for a lot of people who in this builder phase you know like they might not be a founder yet they might not go raise a bunch of money they just wanna build some stuff and hack on it and i'm willing to kinda take a bet to build that facility and on this podcast we talk a ton about like buying businesses and we almost get to the point where it almost sounds like we're a bunch of like banker pe types where it's like oh that's an an interesting opportunity but that coolest shit that i've ever done and the most hon i've ever done is just door out with like people that were like me and just like oh this is kinda funny like this is silly like we could do that and it all starts like this is so stupid it's so fun and sometimes it like turns into really cool amazing stuff and and i think that that's fun to remember that that should that should that should be how a lot of stuff starts or maybe like maybe it's that should be but it can be that way which is i think better yeah organic organic is awesome right it just means that we just kinda sat around we brainstorm some ideas some of our experiences we tried some things you need to be able try things i think that's like really important and if i could reduce you know for me growing up i didn't have a lot of like people that i could leave me on that's like they had done this already or they were doing businesses it was just like kind of fail as you go take a bunch of scars and you know finding like people like adam and sean like was critical for me in the sense that like i had people that i could talk to you about business things that like maybe other people i couldn't interact with and and i just wanna kind of if i can take that for let's say like sean said earlier you know myself fifteen years ago i could give myself some of that like that's what i that's what i feel like i'm kinda building over here yeah there's what's that cheesy phrase that's great but it's cheesy it's like be the person you needed when as you know when you were kid or something like that is one of those things that like if everybody actually did it you know the world would sort of be a good great place and and i think that's what in many ways you're doing i don't know what i needed i i sort of like had a different journey where i was like kind of on a autopilot for like twenty years didn't have an entrepreneurial bone in my body didn't think about stuff i just kind of was going with the flows pretty like you know i was trying to trying to do good at school but i yeah i was okay it wasn't wasn't the best wasn't particularly a hard worker wasn't doing anything interesting wasn't great you know socially and i i just felt like i kinda woke up when i was twenty one years old it started you know but i had my first idea for a company that's when i started to be more like me and so i think everybody you okay why do i do this podcast well i'm not gonna say i it to get back like it's not why i do it because it's fun but the side effect of doing it is that the person who's me when they're eighteen seventeen sixteen twenty years old or thirty it doesn't even matter how old if you're kind of in that autopilot phase where you don't feel like you found your thing or you don't feel like you know you're excited every day to wake up then all of a sudden you hear a couple guys on a podcast shooting and the shit they sound really excited about life they got great energy they get ideas for days then you start to look at yourself like why don't i see ideas all the time alright are these guys able to come on the podcast two times we can do it and so what does that do it proliferate more people that are like me that's you know what i want you know i i am the way i wanna be so that hopefully i can like you know in inc a bunch of other people in their brain that maybe they can pick that up right podcast a vehicle to do that you're doing the same thing you know when you were growing up you were you know mess around with hardware cars and business when you were fifteen sixteen years old and you're messing around with computers and and so and a bunch of people helps you out right your dad bringing home the computer or i think you told me about a guy kind of in your neighborhood who had like the the car stuff that you could use to go work on cars if you didn't have that hardware and you picked up those hobbies and you just follow those hobbies you double down triple down even though that wasn't the common path right the common path was finish college get a job like get married have kid whatever right like everybody has this like path that's kind of like your parents and society sort of throws at you and you went off that path i think when you went off that path you probably didn't have as much guidance as like you're able to provide to that next wave where they should go on to do bigger and better things because yeah you're able to knock down a few of those walls for them or with them yeah and i i like how you've phrase it the cheese phrase is obviously interesting but like i don't think giving back is the right that's not the right way to frame this because it's is it's like it's not charity right like obviously like i'm building a business i do believe in the long run i wanna make money with this business and then things i'm gonna invest in or are gonna in the long run pay for me monet momentarily as well but as a side effect i i do believe that you know kinda like your podcast like you're gonna inspire a lot of people i would love to inspire the next like thousand builders or founders kind of however you wanna phrase it and i think that side effect is fantastic i don't think that business has to be you know detached from you know some side effect like i i think it's if i wanted to make a charity i'd make it a profit right like that would be the way to go and that that would be kind of the way to do it but i i think there's a lot of benefit and a lot of people will benefit hopefully from it and ideally not just because of me like hopefully it's more like i don't know what the discord has become it's like founders is helping each other like that's the best version of this and if i could be maybe the person that can first create the circle then awesome like that would be the whole what what's the biggest kinda like common mistake or trap you're seeing when you have those kind of young entrepreneurs in the discord working on their projects what is the advice you keep on given over and over again that like you feel like is the common the common mistakes the common traps that they're falling into i think it's always you know what are you focused on so like if you're a builder you're probably spending a lot of your energy on building and if you're you know really most of these companies will kinda die in the market not tech and there's some challenges sometimes but even as a technology person i would not spend too much time on technology and and sean if you experienced this firsthand like how many times i like we'll just hack it in and all the engineers are like fringe right it's like well we have to like we need to go win this market or figure out if this is real or not if it's not real we need to move on from this very fast because we're just wasting time money energy and probably your company if we go down the wrong path here and so it's pretty much always focused on you know for me the a lot of the advice like go be more aggressive on growth go figure out your market go understand your customers use technologies as a weapon for that not it's not the purpose that you're building like you're gonna stay here to build this technology somebody else gonna go take your market probably with the same technology by the way sam i don't know if you have a hard stop but there's one other one that i think is is interesting that for kinda could talk about i don't know if you can talk about it but pack protocol or yeah don't know if can you talk about that or is either that or i think you know the way you're setting up the dow or any dow that you're a part of i think are interesting so pick one of those two and then talk about that yeah so you know dow decentralized autonomous organization i'll call it a decentralized org because it's a little bit simpler to understand is really just kind of like this thing happening in the crypto world where people are forming effectively these partnerships together they're doing it on you know on chain meaning as like an actual organization that kind of owns this code and things like that and so so okay let me let me simplify for a second so sam you started the hustle you probably made a delaware c corp right so you go to delaware that's the rule of law that's kind of where you're gonna go write down all your articles of incorporation and you chose c corp as the like structure of your organization as and that lets you do certain things you can take investment you can do this you can do that and so you could do an llc you could do a s corp you could it in nevada you could do in california so those are the current ways that you start when you have a project that where you need a bunch of people to work together and be financially incentivized as a group you you traditionally you would use you know a delaware c corp or l llc or something like that so what he's providing what he's talking about is an alternative that's been made and i i think for kind of the trick here is what do they let you do that's different than just making it why why don't i just go do a llc or a c corp in delaware well it it lets you first be you know it lets you kind of detach yourself from the legal entity and how you are kind of like having your stake of ownership and and kind of voting and governance of the company so like you know we talked a lot sean before of like man it kinda sucks companies are like heavy and everybody's putting a lot of you know energy and effort and yeah you might be the person that's responsible front for making these choices but wouldn't it be cool if and you know a bunch of people on the internet basically took that wouldn't it be cool if we made a company that could be owned by everybody equally and you could do things like voting or managing the treasury or issuing new you know tokens or shares to people and you could incentivize them however you want it so like if you bring on some people to help you market and like some let's say big celebrity you can issue some governance to them like it could be a part of this you can align incentive between investors founders community the market whoever you want and so here's here's an example of one right that you've you showed me so there's a thing called the la have you ever heard this sam so the la la what it is is it's a venture fund but instead of like if you go to sequoia sequoia has got you know let's say the gps the general partners it's got the managing director maybe and it's got then the associates and the analyst it's like a traditional company it's like a pyramid at the top is the people in charge and what the dow is is basically here's a fund you put your money in for however much money you put in you get certain number of tokens tokens are like shares and and then there's nobody specifically in charge and the fund basically can receive proposals so there's just they have a website you can pitch them the pitch goes in everybody gets it in their inbox everybody votes yes or no based on how many tokens they hold that's their vote that's their weight and then if the majority of the dow has voted yes it gets the the treasury which is the bank account for the for the for the la we'll pay out that project here's your investment and and then at any time i if i don't like the la i can just sell my stake sell it to anybody else they can take my spot and the la and you know now they own the they have that share so it's completely liquid at all times whether there's maybe there's been great projects in there and now these things looks really valuable these tokens look more valuable than the initial money that was put in well i can sell that i don't have to wait ten years for those projects to pan out i can sell out today at two that double my money or you know i can say i wanna i wanna have more control i'm gonna buy out more tokens so that i have a greater say in this community because i'm gonna spend a bunch of time and i really wanna make sure my vote my vote matters and basically it ties your vote to your sort of your merits how much value you put in in this case how much money you put into the la so they did it as an investment vehicle other people did it as a art collecting vehicle put money in by art are owned by the group and you could sell them in in whatever so there's these a headless companies there's no ceo in a suit at the top that is telling everybody what to do and deciding who gets hired and fired it's just a bunch of shareholders together and you vote based on your shares it's like you know more like america like a democracy i guess and then yeah there's other variations of that too that i can't even wrap my head around those are the simple ones i've understood there's others that i don't even understand yet yeah it it's it's very complicated very very complex but this is simple version i like how you phrase it is kind of like a democracy times a company you know mixed in one and maybe companies even the wrong raising there but you know i'm very fascinated with this it's a very different pattern i don't know if it's better or worse and you know what we've seen traditionally but it's definitely different right and i've been wanting to kind of like you know be a part of one create one and so i joined a couple but i'm not like you know some meaningful stakeholder in it but then you know with a lot of the work that's been going on in f n f t's a lot of popularity the top shot is just like taken over like my friends group and very popular know yours super bring to like bit cloud and some of these other platforms and so i i've been wanting to kind of wrap my head around f t's and i started talking to a lot of developers and people that are interested about some of these ideas that i had and i found like a group of five six people that i'm like oh we're we're all kind of really into this let's make a dow all kind of put in the first amount of money and now a couple of my buddies are also putting in some money for getting some stake in this and the idea is we're just gonna be kind of a group of people that are gonna build fund projects in the n space and our goal is there's a lot of hype right now we're in that hype cycle hype cycle is gonna go away right so the same pattern that we talked about before well what is the valuable things that n piece can do let's go build some of these and so you know we have two ideas that we're working on right now as a group one of them is like shopify for entities like you come in you click two buttons and you like you can create your own and you don't ask you this sean like you heard a lot about n faqs you talked a lot about him have you mint your own yet i have not why not i don't know what the hell with my nxt would be so like for example we have a friend jack butcher who has mint mentored many n entities now himself and he's a great designer so he makes like a cool visual it's like badass ass art and he's like oh cool instead of just posting this for free on twitter for likes i'll post this on foundation and i'll sell it and he sold some of these for sixty seventy thousand dollars each and so he's made you know a lot of money this year just basically selling his own kind of like his philosophies he just makes it into a kind of a a digital poster and he sells that digital poster to his fans and so for me i'm like oh that's cool if i made it an i don't i don't have that artistic skill i don't even know what the actual n would be that's kind of my thought and then but you haven't even just tried to one right like when you first saw a shopify about you went and create store right i you didn't you didn't have to start a company you know or sell something but you went do one's easier than the other one you're typing in a user victor your username and password yeah exactly i mean if i open a shopify i also need to put a product there right like i i can't also have everything you either try it right and i think that that's the thing that i saw is like a lot of this these world's d defy n f t's the dollar value is really big at the top end of it when you go and dig underneath and you're like there's only like five thousand users doing this why is it so little right and there's a lot of interest in doing it really hard to do and i believe that's like one of the biggest opportunities in n entities is just like make make it really easy for people to do it almost as easy as creating a shopify store and so that's like product idea one like we're gonna basically pay for your gas we're gonna make it so you can deploy your own contract without ever thinking about it you're gonna just click a couple buttons and get a landing page that you could send to people and they can buy stuff okay we're gonna make it literally that easy us think that's like accessibility really important second one which is the thing you were talking about which is the pac protocol like you know there's building products and then there's building protocol and protocols are just like here's an api to go do this thing and nba top shot i mean probably one of the biggest digital products we've seen since pokemon go it i'll kinda call it that like that wave of like pipe you know reaching some mass market lot lot of interest in it but it's very close right i mean you have to be an nba player to get one you have to kind of like be in the nba you gotta play in this whole ecosystem and you know who knows what they're gonna be worth in the long run but the short run there's a lot of interest there but only the nba is doing it we'll see the other sports teams do it and but the basic idea of creating a pack with some digital items in it or potentially kind of linking to the real world that's kind of what i got really excited about and so we you know as part of n nfc lab we created this axe protocol which is a protocol to create kind of a you know like a little loot box pack where you can put in digital items and you could put in an image a sound clip for like let's say your guy's podcast or you know kind of access like hey here's a ticket to a vip event that i'm gonna do here or here's a meeting and greet here's my private community and so creators are gonna find a lot of ways to use this if we develop that underneath foundation that they can kind of do all this and so so sam does that make sense of how so like for example what we would do is we would say oh cool these guys built the infrastructure that makes it easy for us to do the following we can create these little packs meaning like a card pack or like a box like a loot box and basically put it's a mystery box you don't know what's inside so you buy one you open it up and you're gonna get one you know maybe you get the crap or maybe you get the most vip thing where sam calls you and coaches you on your business for an hour and and right and what's that call what's the you what's the domain so n t labs dot c is kind of like the main domain and that's one of their projects and so i think this is pretty cool because they're gonna be able to get any like influence like us and so there's one thing to do what jack's doing which is and actually jack did this i don't know if you saw this for con but he initially was selling a specific n hey buy this thing and then he sold three packs with inside was a mystery n you didn't know made many six figures i believe yeah and like this mechanic many many games used these like loot box mechanics because it's fun it's fun to go buy the thing and see do you get the super rare valuable thing or did you get kind of the junk and you know you so you either get you know sixty cents on the dollar or you get sixty dollars for every dollar you spent and there's like this game of chance and so what they're doing is they made a protocol where it's now easy for us to do that we can make all these packs we could put inside hey tickets to our live show in austin or you know you get to be put into our like private members group or here's a t shirt you know with our you know here's a harvard shirt whatever and so we could put any number of things just stuff i'm in the boxes and assign some probability and then it'll generate the packs for us which i think is pretty sweet yeah and you know like i i really just think a lot about like what what's the value underneath it like the we have to get to you know i mean art has value you know obviously the person buying it cares about it but a lot of people look at that and go wait you know these things are selling for like fifty million bucks plus i'm like what's you know it's a jpeg underneath but like i mean a vip meet greet when you guys do your road show that's pretty cool actually and i think a lot of people will be really excited about it it sucks if you only option that off to the you know person has most money right like and i think these packs give kind of the you know creators and influencers a way to interact with their fans kinda more broadly and say all of you guys will get a chance and here's kind of the things of it by the way you know if there were only ten vip meet greet we'll make the third party marketplace a top traveler or somebody wants to go spend a hundred grand for it by the way you guys will earn a cut of that secondary sale plus somebody who got that if they didn't want it and they wanted to sell it they can kinda do that and so you can support both sides of the ecosystem you can make it kind of fan friendly but then you can go kind of get a lot of value out of it too and so i don't i find readers really interesting because they're kind of an analogy to founders where you know i don't wanna go work at a fan company i mean you you know i i made it through twitch but it was not is it's not the right environment for first right like it's not where i'm gonna it's not where i'm gonna be excited do creators have the same thing it's saw a great idea on this the founder of rep tweet to this out he goes there's a bunch of people who engineers who work at like fang companies they make great salaries and they kinda want they're kinda bored they wanna go do a startup but they're like the compensation difference is pretty big and maybe they have a family or they just you know it's just hard to walk away from a guaranteed you know five hundred six hundred thousand dollars a year to go work for one fifth that of one fourth that at a startup that may or may not make it hey he goes somebody should just create a fund that just bridges the difference so what it does is it basically says great we will we'll even out that difference so you get three hundred instead of let's say six hundred and it's an income share agreement and but you pay us back with your with stock from the from the start up and so you give up a little bit of the stock from the start up to make back the cash difference and in doing so you would create a port so you would you would help more people who today can't leave the the salary go to a startup you'd help the startup up not have to burn more money hiring that person and and you sit in between and by providing that you would get shares in pretty much every startup up that you wanted to provide this with so if you just say you thought these hundred started are great you could basically say great you're all eligible for this this like kind of like income share agreement that we do where if you hire somebody and they wanna on a bit higher salary we'll front that salary in exchange for stock and and hopefully bring more talent into the start workforce i thought that was pretty clever idea a way to get shares in all the companies that you want shares in that you can't go invest in directly yeah that's really interesting and i don't know i think people should just you know ideally people can do the thing that they enjoy they wake up every day they're excited whether they gotta drive to work or work from home or wherever it is if you can do that like that that's a big unlock in your life and a lot of people don't get that opportunity and early on in my career i just made those trades like kinda no matter how financially painful or you know you know mis misguided it might have seemed at the time but like i just wanted to work on things that i was excited about and and it went to when you went to eleven you had another job offer right what was the difference there yeah so i had met this guy jack levin i think he was like you know very early at google he was responding for you know kind of a lot of google's infrastructure tricks early on like how they really scaled it and some of the ways they win is really his responsibility and he was working on this company i think it was called wife frog was it was like a photo sharing type thing i think they had run another product on i think it was photo bucket something like that they had done some big stuff in the photo space they were doing really well they needed some engineers i was an engineer at the time and i could basically come in and learn a lot from this very technical person seemed really sharp he asked me these questions i like got my brain going in a good way like you have very specific questions like how do you set up your desktop and like my desktop is very particular and he wanted to know every detail now i was like a this guy gets it this guy gets me in the same way and then i met adam and adam was like very different obviously very impressive as was just the ceo and a person but like the conversation was different the vibe was different one was in like los studios one was in palo alto just like a little bit of a different area but when i when i talked to adam was like this guy i could go to a baseball game with them i could hang out with him he seems cool he seems very hungry they don't have a clue what they're doing right now like you know they're shutting down an idea they don't know what the next setting necessarily is gonna be i think there's gonna be a lot more fun the rate of learning is gonna be really high i might get worse responsibility but the really good like kind of proper choice was going to this other job offer and you know adam gave me two options he gave me a higher salary rate a low stock and a lower salary and a higher stock option and i was like i kinda just made the decision down to like well if i go with you know adam i need to take the low salary move back in with my parents like take the stock because like i'm gonna be in it for the ride but if i just kinda wanna become an engineer and that's what i want my career to be i'm gonna go to this other company i'm a take the salary not worried about the equity necessarily how big that is but i'm just gonna become a better engineer and i kinda picked the more unknown less polished option obviously you worked out so i feel great about it but you took the note in with the parents option and then yeah took the move in with your parents off in a absurd way yeah how you how old are you when you've started at eleven let's see probably like twenty five twenty six no twenty six moving moving at home wasn't worse but yeah wasn't good a little bit yeah twenty six bro that's maybe just old enough where it's kind of like alright what are you doing but definitely quiet convenient socially yeah yeah like why you move out when you move out right so you move out of your house when you move back in it's not like a happy like oh yeah i'm winning high fives all around right like that's not we that it's not like you had to move in with your wife or something like that yeah i mean that that moving with your wife that yeah like like so sorry your wife like yeah like no no i mean like you you're like in your thirties or like you have a family like oh you like if you you're like a little more established yeah that's what yeah twenty six is old enough and it's still like you could still fuck around and maybe figure it out what you did it yeah and so what i mean you you know i think almost be a kid yeah exactly i i think for me it was just like i know i wanted to do sounded more fun more fun is always good like you're gonna be you're gonna wake up you gonna be excited to go to work it's not gonna be a drag like you know i i would tell sean this all the time because we used to do sunday night call right where we would kinda think about the week and it was like my friends were always sunday night and like oh man work tomorrow like sunday like sucks like weekends over and i and i always felt like hey it's exciting like more stuff gonna happen this week's would be great like and that's a big difference if more people can do that like that that i think is a what when we did those sunday calls i remember i always be like oh like sorry i got it like i'm doing this thing with family or friends or whatever i'm like i gotta go get on this call and they're like oh man you have to do calls on sunday nights and i was like i get to do calls like i'm i chose this i want to do this i can't wait for monday we gotta do it tonight you know that was our mindset and like you know we didn't have as like spectacular of an outcome but i definitely have like a spectacular time building that out and learn all this different stuff so anyways i i think that's that's if you take away one thing like maybe you didn't understand the technology but like the middle lesson of fe to me is he always picked the more fun an interesting path regardless of the financial thing and then on the financial side i just made sure that it was a bet on himself and a bet on equity so that if if fun interesting thing does pan out you actually do get paid out of it and i've seen him make that trade of like i'll work harder i'll earn less i'll move back in with my parents i'll you know all all these things right like he's willing to work three times as hard as long as it's three times as fun and i think most people at least from where i come from they don't do that they when they make career choices it's a rational logical decision and i think that gets you to a certain type of outcome but if you hear these outcomes and you're like how do i get some of that i think you gotta follow the irrational playbook a bit more i i mean sean if you look across your journey at monkey in for i mean you're a twenty four year old pretty pretty green right like i i think i saw your initial video interview that you had sent in through monkey inferno and like whether the dollar outcome was there or not like i would say the rate of learning like the growth difference for you and i know for that for myself it's a massive difference like i'm embarrassed at what i used to think about back then in terms of building compared to kind of after the journey but you'd feel like that was like a thousand x payoff and like rest of your career is gonna kind of unlock because of right like i i would imagine you believe that but i'm curious you think about that journey yeah hundred percent i i told the guys who set up our studios this and i mentioned this on a recent podcast but i said they came they they flew out here to san francisco they were like staying in a motel six type of thing they're like i'm gonna build this out and in another they're twenty two twenty three twenty four years old or something like that and they had sent in a video like kind of a video interview to be like sam sean choose us to like like we will help you guys out we will come build your studio for you they've like did a balls youtube video and tweeting at us as like nonstop shit i used to do i used to wait in parking lots to meet ceos and investors i wanted to meet just so i could say i've been here since seven am waiting thing in the parking lot for you to come out like do you have five minutes of time right i used to do all these stunt and they were doing a stunt to meet us and i thought that was and when they were there i was like they kind of were like deferring to me too much they were sort of like it's kinda like too much respect and i told him i was like dude you you kinda want what i have i want what you have i want that time back and i wanna be back where you guys are where it's four friends living in a one bedroom apartment and you're making videos and kind of like why aren't we trying to be youtubers i don't know it seems fun let's just do it and then like we think these guys have a cool podcast fuck let's fly out and meet them and help them out with their studio and we don't know what's you know there's no there's nothing clearly in it for us but like we'll hop on that plane tomorrow and go make it happen i told him i said that was by far the most fun time there was the highest rate of learning and i remember at the time feeling like man like everything we do is so boot and ghetto and like but that was the right path actually for me for a person like me who wanted what i wanted out of life and i said you're gonna i remember you know i went to do most of my friends went to med school law school or banking or consulting and so every you know every weekend they would post like they're you know they're making six figures they're posting themselves at a bar they're like like i wasn't dating i had no income was sleeping on an air mattress you know you know my my c founder lived in my closet right so i was like you know it was ghetto and so i remember thinking well maybe you know there's was moments of doubt i was like maybe i should have gone on the traditional path maybe i should have gone to med school after all but but it was so fun i couldn't you know i didn't that was not a real conversation my head what i was telling these guys was y you're gonna see your friends who are on the traditional path and they're gonna look like they're way far ahead of you right now and there's gonna be a part of you who feels like you're locked your left behind if you're like me that's what i felt stay the path and just know that like this is the first quarter we're gonna be long term oriented we're gonna think about this like in a ten twenty year timescale scale who do you wanna be in ten twenty years and like you're gonna have a lot of fun now and then your rewards are gonna catch up ten twenty years from now and if you're okay with that trade of having more fun now and rewards that are little back loaded this is the right path i wish somebody had just told me at that time guys this looks ghetto as hell but you're on the right path we kind of just like for better worse stuck with it and i want more people to stick with it when they're in that that mode and you you've done the same traveling through europe playing poker to support yourself and like you know moving back in with your parents it's not a on it sounds at the time it feels uncommon but it's actually quite common amongst people who end up successful in entrepreneur entrepreneurial away yeah flip flipside is just not easy right you're gonna go the harder path like you know i didn't i didn't have i don't have a college degree i didn't get that a lot of people ask me hey should i go to college like i have these other things going on and you know like you don't have to you can learn on your own especially now but is typically gonna be a harder path i don't expect linear returns where if i put in a year of work i get a a year of kind of tests and then i put in five years we're have five success it might be nothing for a long time and you might kinda get it in the end but i don't know the journey is very exciting like that that's that's reasonable matters because that's what you're gonna do every day you're gonna wake up every day and you're gonna go do this thing very excited about that and and that's kind of like critical yeah thank you dude i always take a lot of notes i'm taking notes now whenever you come i i'm excited for your success that's so cool i thought app love was like this huge thing whenever it was supposed to sell year or whatever two a few years ago now and then now seeing what it is now like oh my gosh that's that's it's it's blew my expectations i'm sure it is it will yours as well so congratulations it's pretty bad ass and what you're building is awesome founder inc that's badass yes sweet appreciate it and yeah i know this has been fun i was like hearing you guys was kind of fun to be on as well and we're shit a able find your founders f dot inc or founders at inc yeah f dot inc that's the website and so that's the domain you could find me on twitter fur con r f u r q a n r so for con thanks for coming i feel like i could rule to world i know i could be what i want to put my all in it like a day's off on a goal travel never looking back