#172 - Indie Businesses Making Millions, Advice to Young Entrepreneurs & How to Grow a Podcast

i used to chase money a lot like how do make money this will make us money maybe this will make some money and that was good because i like learn skills about how to make money but the things that actually paid off none of those really paid off with a big dollar amount i feel like i could rule to word i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a days off on a goal less travel never looking back alright before we actually get to the content a few things we've been making a ton of changes to this podcast the numbers are working i think the last month was our highest ever right are you believe so yeah so i try i think we should start saying the numbers i think we should start saying the numbers i think we just say what it is say what we're gonna do and say what happens so whether it works or it doesn't yeah so the trailing thirty days was i think three hundred and fifty thousand listens which if it's not the highest ever it's one of like type one or two but the trajectory is is really what's matters and that is great so we're getting around an average episode i think is twenty thousand downloads an episode which is i think a sixty percent increase from the year before is that right a are am might am i getting all these yes twenty two twenty three thousand right so twenty so let's say we're at twenty two thousand it used to be fifteen think of course it used to be zero so you know whatever it's growing and our goal is a hundred thousand per episode one rose bowl stadium per episode is what i wanna be doing and something like that and so we're not far four x is you know it's not far i think naturally that would happen in a couple years and what we're gonna do is just accelerate it so it happens in one yeah i feel quite confident that if we do the same thing but more it would happen with time but i don't want to do that i'm impatient i want it to happen immediately so the changes we've made is we prepared more for every podcast which i think is very clearly working yes we now have these videos going which i also think is clearly working and that it makes me feel good is it driving down loads i don't actually i'm not convinced but it's worth it what you know what it does do is there's a whole group of people that like either age just don't listen to podcasts or don't listen much so they're like kind of like otherwise they would only hop in once in a while they didn't build a habit with us and they follow just through the clip so there's actually just like another audience that's like oh good i watch those clips every time because they're good and i always get messages about i am yeah and i'm in that category as well i've never i don't think i've ever listened to a joe rogan podcast but i watch a lot of clips right and we're putting our clips on youtube which is not working that is not working well at all for us right it maybe the we're putting the full episodes on in a handful have twenty to thirty thousand of views maybe even more a couple of them have a few more that's working but the clips are not working and then we're doing email blast in the hustle i think that started two weeks ago that is working we should we should rewind we should basically say we had a meeting which was like you got don't know week ago maybe something like that and i was like oh okay we got all these ideas basically i had threw in a few ideas you had a few ideas bra you had a few ideas my buddy ben had a few ideas we're like oh yeah great aldi these sound good so like who's gonna do them and then we kind of had this like come to jesus moment where i was like look in sam we trust like if and we can't we can't outsource this to somebody else who doesn't really i don't wanna say it doesn't care but like it's a different thing when it's your baby it's your show you are getting the like the more people who listen to this the cooler opportunities we get the the better dms we get every morning and so like clearly it matters more to us than it would be for even if it was somebody's full time job and the second thing is like your skill level super high right like we saw you grow the hustle i saw you grow the hustle a lot of people who were subscribers saw you grow the hustle saw you go trends from scratch and so saw you sell the thing and it's like so i got excited because i was like i'm gonna get to see sam in action even closer than i did with the hustle where like you would send a monthly update now i'm seeing how you actually operate and it's pretty dope and i actually think the listeners will like to see how you operate how you approach growing a thing and that i think that'll be exciting that's a lot of pressure thank you for help but that's a lot of pressure i i will say i think growing the podcast has been i mean that's actually one of the harder things i've done yeah but hubspot owns us now it's not my money like it's their money and and and so we're in a totally i mean we're i the our owner you know the company this company now does a billion a year in revenue there's like a billion plus in cash in the bank account like so we could actually so we're gonna have a lot more resources i actually am not convinced that that's actually gonna help us grow that i i don't think resources helps to grow but i think i i would say like that wasn't the problem before yeah to be helpful but that wasn't necessarily the problem and then so what we're doing now is we don't have ads in the email anymore so in the hustle we do zero advertisements and the podcast is going in every day now or not every day but a lot and then also what we are launching at hubspot and the hustle is we're creating this thing well i actually don't know if i could say too much about it but there's gonna be a lot more podcast podcasts and amongst those podcasts we can promote one another and that's what you're gonna hear so right whoever is in our podcast our podcast crew we're gonna promote them demos yada and i actually think that's gonna help a ton i think that i actually don't think i can talk any i i was pretty who's in that but we'll we'll say it later when you can so okay can i give the audience the five ideas that we had brainstorm that we're like oh okay once thing one was like let's put sam in charge of it because sam knows how to grow shit that step one step two okay so what are the like how would you grow a podcast if you're gonna grow a podcast so we said yeah i'm gonna just rattle off the ideas number one big name guests that actually have an overlapping audience so people like cha people like tim ferris not just like a famous person who like for example we had jake paul on super famous but his audience is in our audience not gonna have a huge amount of overlap where it's not necessarily that his fans would would connect with us and become long you know ongoing subscribed okay the other one was paid can you advertise to grow a podcast right like running some experiments on take a few thousand bucks run it down a paid campaign and see can you grow through through paid i think we'll find that interesting we're doing so we bought ads in player fm b is that what we did yep yep and then we're buying ads and a few more i have a few more that we're buying ads and did that work a b you play fm it's hard to tell because they claim a lot of their views come from desktop listeners which doesn't necessarily get measured according to them yeah so yeah that's oh that's like saying like thank you oh yeah yeah it's like they like oh look the it's like this is like selling like like cbd treats for dogs like doesn't work oh right can't ask your dog yeah i guess was i think a greatest business this separate it's like selling vitamins b for your puppy yeah exactly so i would say if it's hard to tell it didn't work it's very obvious i to think about it okay another one go on other people's podcast podcasts so do a do a tour going on other people's pods they already have an audience those people listen they say oh man what a great guy i'd love to listen to more of this person they were interesting boom get some people from there clips people have seen we tripled down on clips you found awesome clip makers we're making fucked on clips and we're gonna post the shit out of them so i think that's a good good strategy there's the and then the last one that i thought was kind of an interesting one was like get sharper on the branding so if you wanna grow a product the sharper the hook of what is the product you're the better chance you have to grow because it'll be more clear it'll resonate with more people and so being able to describe it well as well as just being like on brand all the time about like what this is and what you get out of it if you listen to it i think that's what an area that honestly got shitty at which is ironic it because i think we're pretty good at it with our startups but we're pretty bad at it with the podcast like the name doesn't really make much sense the description i don't know we don't have like we don't do an intro when you join to like be like oh this is the podcast where x y z happens we don't have like a a highlight reel of like you know start here if you're if you're new to the pod like go here this is the onboarding episode you know basically in in a sense it kinda succeeds a little bit in spite of itself right and and a lot of people say the name doesn't really matter or sorry the name doesn't reflect it and in my my opinion towards just names is it doesn't your name really like it rarely will it hurt you in some cases occasions it actually could help you i think coinbase is like the perfect name ever right but even if coinbase was called like blue sky sunglasses i'm just looking i'm just making shit up that i'm looking at it would work blue sky like it will work and it it would have worked okay so should we move on to coinbase actually let's move on to coinbase so coinbase went public today and it's everything about it is astounding right what we wanna start i can read off some of the kind of the numbers of like just how big is that business and then we could talk about the returns of this in of the of the investment so how big is the business so coinbase came out the public now so now they released their numbers they are q one numbers came out fifty six million users six million monthly active users which is i think more than e trade had you know like total i think e trade had like three million like trade trader accounts or whatever and so the this is kind of amazing to me that there was more people on coinbase base coinbase makes up eleven percent of the crypto asset market in terms of how many assets are stored on crypto crypto on coinbase three hundred thirty five billion in trading volume okay here's the interesting bits one point eight billion in revenue for the quarter for the quarter for the quarter so round up to two so about eight billion ish in revenue is for annual eight hundred in net income off that off that one point eight billion in revenue so like two point four billion dollars annual and profit right and and then yeah so basically coinbase goes list publicly today it wasn't a it wasn't an ipo was a direct listing where you basically you know ipo is you create some shares you you issue new shares to to buyers a direct listing is you don't issue new shares it's just people who have shares can get you know like basically sell some of their their shares so they they listen they had about a hundred fourteen million shares for sale and it's up about forty percent on day one so the the implied market cap as of right now is about a hundred and ten billion dollars so what i wanted to know was there's this kind of phrase in in the startup up investing world which is like anytime there's a gold rush like some new frontier new space it can be hard to like pick the winner it be hard to like you know just grab your shovel dig and find the gold and there's a thousand people looking for gold you don't know where to dig it might be this one might be that lot that they land land you you know you don't know exactly where the gold is so the full proof strategy in any gold rush is what they call the picks and chu shovel strategy meaning you you sell the shovel to people who are gonna go mine to gold and so coinbase is kind of a classic picks and shovel thing in the crypto market so you you could buy bitcoin you could buy ethereum you could buy one you could buy litecoin coin or do coin or one of the thousand alt coins that exist and you're betting okay maybe one of these will become like the digital currency or you could buy coinbase base and exchange that's gonna extra trade a bulk you know a bulk number of these coins and so i wanted to know once coinbase got up to where it was like a hundred billion dollar valuation i had the question of what would have been a better investment coinbase at its seed round or bitcoin that same day if you could should you have bought the currency or should you have invested in the company and the reason i thought this was interesting is i remember twenty thirteen i was i just kinda heard about crypto from a guy in my office like our pete our our it guy was like dude bitcoin is of shit it's a seven dollars now it's at eleven dollars i was like i know what that means and he was like yeah i fuck fiat currency and i was like fiat i that was a car i didn't even know that's a currency at the time i didn't know what that meant and he's like mining bitcoin using our servers at the office and he's like we mined too bitcoin today and i was like okay good for you pete like what does that do know i was kind of like you know mocking it but i was curious also so i started go and listening to some talks and and so one of the things i was looking at was like our our smart vcs are people smarter than me investing in this space and what i remember happening was i listened to this talk and it was andre h was mark andre who now blocks me twitter he was talking at it things talking about how crypto is gonna be great how it's how bitcoin is gonna you know is is such a interesting technology how blockchain might change everything and then the interviewer was like so how many investments how much money have you put into this you're you're kinda hiding it up like much money of you invested and like we haven't invested in any crypto companies yet this is like i think twenty twelve twenty i think it twenty twelve you goes right now we're just owning the currency we're just buying bitcoin and i was like what that's so weird these guys like they're they're a vc fund they bet on companies there's a few companies out there like i found it to be super strange she goes right now the bet we don't know which of these companies is gonna emerge as the winner so we're just buying the underlying tech the underlying currency we actually think that's the right move right now and and later you know has and actually did invest in coin base later and since invest in many projects and actually h changed their whole fund structure from a private you know vc fund to like some other kind of like financial investment vehicle they went and got registered with like the sec or whatever because they wanted to own crypto assets and you couldn't do that out of a traditional fund they couldn't you couldn't buy currencies out of a traditional fund the the paperwork the docs don't let you and so so anyways i went back and looked to the numbers so coinbase announced a seed round september twenty twelve i don't know what they probably raised it a little bit before that and then they announced it they raised six hundred thousand dollars from investors including a crowdfunding funding campaign which i which i found interesting because i you don't like them i shit on crowdfunding funding all the time as like me too it's always the bottom of the barrel but this was through fund club fund club had put in like two hundred and eighty five thousand dollars through its crowdfunding funding into that and so anyways what is is in fund club it's just a startup up cloud itself was a is it yc startup and then coinbase was a yc startup and so fund club took took a share like did a did a crowdfunding campaign for for that if i read this correctly i i could be wrong in this part but anyways i went and asked one of the the seed investors so if somebody who a friend who invested in the seed round of coinbase base i said what was the valuation back then he said it was fifteen cents a share so fifteen cents a share there and then he said the a round there's only zero twenty cents a so it wasn't even that much more this says something like that so so fifteen cents a share and now it it's trading right now like right before this podcast at three hundred thirty dollars a share or whatever and so you got this you know two thousand x markup up i think twenty two hundred x markup and so you invested a hundred thousand dollars in the in the seed round of coinbase that's worth two hundred twenty million dollars on this day today because it goes it goes public now if you would invest in bitcoin at same time bitcoin at at in that same month was trading at twelve dollars a coin now it's at sixty two thousand dollars of coin so your same hundred k instead you know it would have been worth five hundred million dollars so still bitcoin was the better investment even though this was like a you know you invest in a startup up that's became a hundred ten billion dollar company still bitcoin outperformed but it's closer than i would have thought because coinbase has really gone up in value in the last two years so let's give some more numbers i think right before we started the valuation was eighty billion but a few hours ago was a hundred billion right we're gonna use a hundred billion because that that math is a little bit easier brian armstrong is the ceo he's thirty eight years old he owns i think twenty percent of the company which means a hundred billion his net worth is twenty billion dollars which puts him i think like in the top fifty richest people in the world at thirty eight and the company coinbase i let's see it started went twelve so it's nine years old so basically became the from zero to top fifty richest people in the world and only ten ish years nine years and also he owns twenty percent of coinbase who knows how much i don't i certainly don't know but you have to ask how much bitcoin does this does this person own if you told me that it was another twenty billion i don't think i would be surprised at all do you would you be surprised be twenty billion is a lot that that is that is a that is a very very large amount so i don't think it would be quite so high but i wouldn't be surprised if if it was over a billion dollars i i think twenty billion would be twenty billion would be like you'd be one of the the top three i think bitcoin whales i think at at twenty billion or something like that know okay okay so i that too much would you think i i i i i don't i didn't do the math ahead of time but what do you think he would be a top fifty bitcoin holder that seems reasonable right it's plausible yeah so so i don't know you know he i don't think he's ever said or disclosed you know if he if he was buying the underlying coins now so the biggest thing is did you hold right because bitcoin on this run up right so from when you know if if he's doing coinbase based bitcoin at ten dollars a coin right that becomes your kinda like frame of reference bitcoin today is trading at sixty three thousand dollars sixty three thousand dollars from twelve is such a like mind boggling like change and so when i was talking to the the my friend who was an investor in coinbase i said i was like wow did that did that mean does that mean that coinbase outperform bitcoin he goes no i think bitcoin still wins he goes but name one person who held all their bitcoin from twenty twelve to twenty twenty one he's like he's the same right example i guess like of people who owned a lot of it at that time no i didn't i didn't own a lot i owned i bought hundreds of dollars worth right know you a lot so if let's say you owned a lot you know as that nest egg becomes ten million and twenty million a hundred million dollars you're gonna like a lot of people would would liquidate some it and so he was saying you know all of us at coinbase base we really couldn't sell this whole way and he goes the ill inequality was a feature not a bug like it would the fact that we couldn't sell this whole time for coinbase base it was the best money making strategy for us to like not be able to be liquid until now i didn't sell but my numbers were like tens of thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars right it certainly was not a million or tens of millions but i i didn't sell because i actually forgot my password and i was like oh i just don't wanna log in it's too hard and so i didn't log in i'm you saw if you have it now or no i yeah i have it now like i had i had i just never did like i forgot your password thing in my email because i was like too much work maybe it's a sign i'm just not gonna sell right and so i didn't sell but can what do you have in front of you or are you looking at something looking at this tweet you put in of daniel i wanna bring i wanna bring this up yeah so the numbers here is fascinating but i act don't think that's the really fascinating part what's the fascinating part is the psychology behind this because today it's coinbase in twenty years it's gonna be something else fifty years ago it was real estate or something a hundred years ago it was oil there's always something yeah and the psychology behind the human being i think is far more interesting and by the way he was a engineer at airbnb before he left to go start coinbase base his airbnb b shares from air you know would have done amazingly as well right like well he only worked airbnb i think for a year and before that he worked to deloitte so i'm almost positive granted he was probably a genius probably like you know crazy high iq but like normal guy normal at like a a normal nine to five and also so let's talk about the let's talk about the personality part here that i love i like knowing what drives people what makes them tick we talk about of the week and it's not actually about necessarily the money but what what what what do people think who achieve greatness right in this case it's money but reality greatness could be a a variety of things so daniel gross is the guy we have this podcast he went so hacker news if you guys don't know what hacker news is you should read it every single day it's basically read it but only for nerds i love i read every day it's so tech folks and anyway brian armstrong has a handle on tech news or on hacker news and you could read his old post and he has this old and daniel gross tweeted out some of this guy's old post his handle is actually don't know what his handle is but well it's sorry it's b armstrong yeah and so b armstrong actually had a blog listen do his blog and this is actually kinda funny it's called start breaking free dot com which is which is kind of on right on brand consistently and actually if you go to start breaking free dot com it's controlled by a virus so it like they it automatically wants you to install a old by a virus let's you know what i mean like go are you like it's like like if i go to your right now gonna try to install like you know security software that actually gonna steal all my money yeah just to point yeah it's gonna it's gonna say like you won you know you're the lucky winner like somehow he let the domain expire or something like that and someone got a hold of it so now it's just a scam which is kinda funny that the guy who's supposed to be like mister security his web his domain expired and got it whatever but anyway you can see his post history and he was launching a lot of stuff he launched this one thing and it says hey hacker news i just built a new forum software hey hacker news i just built a new photo sharing website right so the guy was really prolific and it's really interesting to see his post yeah he was definitely like trying like what daniel tweeted that was i you know i look back at brian's hacker new submissions before he started coinbase base you could see what you see is a story of a hacker working on different projects slowly zero in on his launch coordinates right because he's he's consistently shipping stuff they're not all like you know some of them of like one up vote seven up votes thirty two comments right like they're not like taking off so you see so you guy taken a bunch of swings and as it swings you can see it was you know like something about map something about could you know how would you start your own country something about like could you build an entire web app and one language and then it's like bitcoin android release you know like how airbnb does x and then it's about you know like how to build your own forum bitcoin iphone app and you know it just like sort of finding finding like the thing that is his thing and this is this is the true for everybody right like you know people joke about sam's you know sam's foot long wiener or whatever your hotdog dog stand yeah you know my sushi restaurant it's like if you dig back into people's first projects you're always gonna find interesting things like mark zuckerberg first project that i've heard him talk about have you heard this the dentist office thing no he set up a internal like just network internet network for his dad's dental office so it's like a messaging like the secretary of the front that's good message him in his office you know at the back so he's just like kinda set up the internet inside their office and let them message each other then he built out wire hog you know wire hog i think it was really successful by the way well for like a seventeen year old kid it for yeah exactly for seventeen okay it was it was more successful and there's chat transcripts of when he's after he like leaves to go work on facebook he moves you know in the social network done they they moved to palo alto it's like this is it facebook's is gonna be the thing there's chat transcripts that i've been talking at that time like you and do wire yeah like i think wire is the thing like you know like even though it's not obvious at that time and whereas people try to project that these guys are vision they are you know visionary geniuses who never had a doubt in their mind and then they saw the future and then they built it and it's like well well i am maybe that a a couple of those things are true they could be visionary geniuses or rather could be geniuses but that's actually not a prerequisite but it does help but they definitely had doubt regardless of how confident someone it doesn't matter if you're kind of a rigor and you're going in a fight you always have doubt no matter what and second they probably didn't have a vision until it started getting a little bit of traction right and i i go back through there's these there's this an interview on youtube of mark doing there's like some college news that's interviewing him so some got some i'm some guy has like a college podcast in he invite mark zuckerberg going because he's got the college social network that's kinda like taking off on a handful of colleges i think they're on like i don't know five or or ten campuses at the time and he's like you know so what what is this gonna be you're gonna go out to more colleges then what like high schools and then you know non college students and marsha were sitting in there in his like basketball shorts with a red solo cup in his hand and he's like i don't know like i don't if it has to do that like why can't this just be like the cool thing for colleges like once you take it out of the college thing then you let everybody in it's like less cool like maybe this is just cool and like now he's literally putting fucking satellites into the sky to give people in india the internet so that they can use facebook like yeah so is the technical aspirations changed the takeaway here it and i actually just went back to my high school the other day to like give like a talk and i was like dude doesn't guys look small when are you walk walking in yeah and you'd be a sixteen year old but you're like oh my gosh like i felt i was mature i felt i knew what i was doing you're a child yeah i could beat you up yeah yeah i'm like i was like dude up thirty and i thought that we were more similar but we're not we're not at all yeah we're not like are these chasing load to the ground yeah everything is so small and like water fountains are discussing a can't completely used to drink for them anyway i was like you guys just do shit take swings tinker on stuff first of all a lot of stuff that starts out cool it actually looked really dumb early on but even if it stays dumb just get into the habit of taking swings right and making stuff because like i'm not like uber successful but my first shit was like a poison ivy business it was or business was that my first stuff was like stupid and like it led to this thing in this thing and like hopefully the thing that i'm doing now is actually gonna lead to something even bigger and i did a ton research and i found out that there was this poison ivy treatment called x z a n f e l i think x and basically i did more a ton of research i found the guy who started it used to work at a cleaning supplies company and i was like oh that's interesting what is going on here like that's kinda weird that i just saw that connection and i did research and i found out that basically what he did was he took this thing called i think it was called mean green and it was really good at washing oil off mechanics hands and it costs like five dollars or a gallon it was dirt cheap but he found out that the way poison in ivy works is if if the leave gets on you or if it leave its on you it gets this oil on you and you have to use this oil stuff this oil remover to take it today yeah same thing with poison or whatever yeah yeah same thing and i was like oh so i'm just gonna bulk buy this mean green crap and rep package it and sell it for forty dollars as opposed to i sell it for like forty dollars for like some like a like a car mix size or like a you know like a like a chap size thing when it costs like forty dollars for like literally an industrial size barrel and i just rep it i was making thousands of dollars a month and then i quit doing it because i was like i don't wanna do this anyway it was kind of a cool thing but i shut it down because i was like alright this is making money but like i don't wanna do this i'm not proud of this this isn't like anything i i like to talk to tell people i'm doing it's kinda lame even though it it's making like five and a month shut it down and the point is the thing that we're doing now i have a feeling is gonna lead to something even bigger and and in coinbase basis regard everything was much bigger and a much shorter time frame but it doesn't matter it it's the the exercise i think is still true that's great you know those guys who came and set up my studio here they just released a vlog on his channel this guy henry forgot an asked henry lancaster or something like i know what it is but basically i don't know how you'll find him henry on youtube he did this thing he put out a video yesterday they'd been like oh the advice that i got from sean poor and i was like okay well i'm i'm one of his like i don't know hundred subscribers like i'll click this this is about me so i will go ahead and watch this video and as vin are actually super well made and he's like yeah very casey that like any casey neistat yeah yeah which just shows how hard it is to win on youtube like his quality is really high but like no one gives a shit because it's just youtube there's a billion things on there hey as we said just give it some time and just keep trying right my hip so so the advice and i was like i'm curious what the advice was because they came over and they were like doing all the work and i'm just sort of standing in the garage with like a cup of coffee just like you know just sort of like trying to be nice i'm not helpful but i was like trying to talk to them and i was like and they're like you know hammering things and i'm just like asking him questions and give them some kinda like well here's how i would do it if i was you guys because i really resonate with anybody who's is like if you're like twenty two twenty three and then you you're smart but you chose not to go the traditional path and like that feels right but then you also just get these like hunger pan of like doubt when it's like shit my friends actually have a salary weight like i'm sleeping in a like with you know four of us are sleeping in this one bedroom apartment and and so i started like i really like empathize that because that's where i was and like i just wanna tell them what i what i would tell myself which is like dude you're doing the right thing here's how you need to think about this though don't like don't worry you know here's how here's how this is gonna play out but what i told them was like look honestly the best times of my life were three of us living in a you know one bedroom apartment my my cofounder and my my roommate lived in my closet because he couldn't even afford our dirt cheap rent so trevor lived in my closet and like turned my live in closet into like a a room for himself with a lava lamp and shit and then like his girlfriend moved in with him in the closet too oh my dad and so then i was like you know he had a grocery cart because there's no he didn't have a closet because he was living in a closet so he stole a shopping cart rolled it into his closet and used that as like his hamper his closet for himself and i just remember like like at the time everything seems so shitty was like oh this is the shitty version of life and now i'm like no that was the that was the most fun time because all we were doing every day was trying to figure shit out trying new different schemes and projects we had no responsibilities no burn and then we were just like party for fun like on the side and so i i just remember the like now with that i looked back i'm like that was the shit and that's i was to tell i was like first of all guys this is the best so like like embrace this part you're never gonna get to have this again with your friends like you have right now it's it's so fun embrace these five years i said the second thing is like i used to chase money a like how do make money maybe this will make us money maybe this will make some money and that good because i like learn skills about how to make money but the things that actually paid off none of those really paid off with a big dollar amount the things that paid off were like the people i was meeting and like doing projects with or learning from like those relationships pay off big in the end you know the the learning of like building skills around like i did my first e com project like you are selling these wristband that called fat bands dot com and it was just fat rip fast fat risk fan that i like noticed that a bunch of kids were wearing on on campus i thought oh maybe that's a friend let me try to sell those online you can customize them and so those skills translated but the the business did not and so when i told them the the advice that he put in the video that i didn't even realize i said was like you're twenty three years old now like here's the trick to this whole thing you're doing the right thing every day you're just making stuff you're trying stuff you're making content you're having a blast with your buddies we're gonna measure the score board when you're thirty not when you're twenty four and it's like that was the game changer like kind of like i advice i wish i had and then i gave them maybe thirty five or forty right but basically it's like don't like you're planting seeds don't go dig up that seed the next day be like shit throw into a plant like no plant that seed water enjoy it and just say look i'm not trying to win the whole game in one year and another year and a half and like if my my if my friends who went took this banking job or consulting job or are doing better than me in in eighteen months like i don't need to feel like i made a bad choice like i'm making the right choice to need and it's gonna like let's look at this as a ten year game and we can only measure the score that like the fourth quarter is ten years from now so that's the only time you can look at the score board really and the seeds that you're planting at least in my experience and i think in a lot of my friends experience and also seems like you for sure is it's shit it's shit it's shit it's shit and it's suddenly it's like oh my god it worked it hits yeah like so it like it's shit for the most of the time and then finally it's like oh okay now it's all happening your learning goes in this like gradual curve like it your learning does go up every year where you're like oh man last year i was such a dummy i didn't know shit about shit and now i know better how i would do this and then the same thing happens in the next year and the next year and the next year but your results can kinda stay flat lined for like a decade almost for like seven years before it actually you know stops being a flat line and it just like curves up rapidly so i wanted to continue talking about this but i'm actually gonna save my stuff that i have these notes i'm gonna say that for the next time because i don't want this episode to be entirely this stuff although frankly i love this stuff bra you do you like this or not yeah man i'm just soaking it all in okay i like this stuff but sean you wanna move on you wanna do the other thing you wanna do micro acquire or do wanna keep talking about this i don't wanna keep talking about this i wanna do either some great micro require or some ideas i wanna do micro acquire and this is an idea actually okay what we at the hustle we work with the guy and i never talk to him because i wasn't the one working on the project but anyway i just started hanging out with him recently this guy named andrew people call him ga but his last name was like ga na or something do you know andrew or something yeah guys d i think they just call him ga do you know andrew or do you know who he is i did the like the mini spa with him so that's the only way i just through dms i never talked to him met andrew is thirty two i think he previously had a company that i think was an agency and he told me that he sold it for like tens of millions of dollars so it's very very successful but his new thing is incredibly interesting it's called micro acquire i think it's just micro acquire dot com that's right and the premise is very simple he finds people that wanna yeah that wants to sell their their company and he just talks about it in the newsletter it's basically like apps sumo or like the hustle but a newsletter that just sends out cool companies except what he does is he makes you pay money to be access to to get access to it only have to pay two dollars three hundred dollars though and you get a years access and his numbers are pretty interesting and keep in mind andrew's is actually the only employee so right no one works there and so as of today he's got fifteen hundred subscribers paying two hundred ninety nine dollars a year and that brings us revenue to about four hundred thousand dollars a year and i posted a chart of this do you see the chart i posted no i'm on his twitter because i was looking for because i know he posts oh here it yeah no i have the chart so i posted it and i'll he just sent this to me so i guess i mean i can they share he he builds in public so he he he announces the revenue publicly as part of his like way of getting more traffic so he's says four hundred twenty five arr for friend thousand chart yeah that's a pretty amazing chart really see what the growth happened like in november december january february like it just last like four or five months yeah and it's pretty interesting and i actually shared with you to scroll down a little bit more i shared with you his his vision but what this guy is building i mean this is his vision we'll see if he can pull it off is a a different type of angel list so basically he wants to disrupt investment banking and he wants to make it easier to buy and sell companies and it's incredibly fascinating so he wants oh sorry not disrupt angela angel but kinda be like angela angel describe what it is so what it is require you go on there if you wanna buy a small saas business so a small business that makes recurring revenue through subscription and and so that's the that's the that's the thing i browse and the size are it ranges so it it could you could buy one for five thousand dollars that's making a hundred dollars a month of revenue or something like that a zero dollars revenue but it has users you could buy for those as low as like a thousand or five thousand dollars you could buy a business and as high as there's a couple for like single digit millions of dollars on on there maybe there's a few that are outliers but that's like i would say the sweet spot the range for these things are kind of like hundreds of thousands of dollars is like where the you know decent businesses are on this platform and this is the thing where i talked about this once on the pod but he had dm us and he was like hey like love my first million you guys are great would you know would you guys wanna do something with me where like give away a five thousand dollar micro saas business and i was like dude that's a great idea i'll like go in with you and like i'll pump this to the audience i'm so basically i tweeted it out like even talk to i didn't actually even respond to i just tweeted it out pay me and andrew or giving away a a saas business for five thousand dollars like who wants it oh you know all the business is there we'll buy it and give it to you it's like these are business that are already working to some extent you know it's like we just need to add some hustle who's a hustle who wants this business and what ended up happening was bunch of other people started of chi in being like i'm in for five k i'll put five k in and so we ended up raising a hundred thousand dollars as a micro stack meaning a blank check company so we raised hundred thousand dollars into an entity to go and you use that entity to go buy a business off of micro micro and then as of last week it closed so we found an entrepreneur found a business and we closed that deal to buy a shopify app that's amazing and that that's pretty wild i'll be eager to see what happens and i'm sure you'll reveal in like six to twelve months my opinion around micro acquire is at worst it's gonna be okay right at best it could be amazing i don't know what it's gonna what's gonna happen to it what do you think it's a really fascinating any business and when i the the the thing is now i'm actually shocked he's letting me talk about it because feel like i can clone this so quickly yeah it's a lot of work like i saw this guy doing the one deal we did and it was just like fuck ton of work till there's like you know shepherd everything to make it happen and do the paperwork get a deal close but that's not the work for micro acquire well well they have to help you do the transaction so so that's their that's their function it's what's good is that they don't make money on the like transaction closing they make money on you paying a premium subscription like i pay a monthly fee to be able to browse businesses which is a much better model because you're not just reliant on taking a brokerage fee of closed m and a because there's just not a lot of closed m and a that happens but there are a lot of people who are curious and we'll pay the you know a hundred bucks or whatever it is two hundred bucks to be able to like browse the premium listings and get the get the details get the info and so what i would do if i was andrew is i would decrease the price to ninety nine dollars a year because that not or even thirty nine dollars a year because that would make it an impulse buy and i would get loads of people then i would do this company selling then i would have a course that costs two thousand and five thousand dollars and would include and include a community and it was all focused on buying selling my businesses and pretty i'm pretty confident that you could get that to around thirty forty fifty million dollars year in business i don't know if that would be a valuable company to sell but i'm pretty sure that you could make ten to twenty million dollars a year in profit for at least a handful of years i think it's that's what i would i it's needed so i think it's smart that he specializes in saas i think that it's smart that he's like curated marketplace versus like flip or these different places where he's just like so much fucking junk you don't know what there's no trust so i think he's doing it right that he's bringing trust to these kind of like lower trust like marketplaces so i have with you i really like the project and i'm with you that the minimum is a good outcome the maximum is like oh wow this is a big idea hidden plain sight and i'll i think it's interesting i think it's more likely gonna just be the good outcome but i like that it has the you know the option to do both and it seems like a fun a fun kind of just to build if you're this guy i think he wants it to be the okay outcome which is he owns it and he lives a really good lifestyle right and which by the way i think like i would probably do the same as well yeah so anyway that's a cool company i want to bring up what do you got i got a couple okay so i'll go for we talked about this before but i'm curious what you think so photo p we talked about this many many months ago but you know we were much smaller than people those people are aren't probably even listening anymore so well just plan it's the first time so there's this thing called photo p and all it is is it's photoshop but it's free and it's in the browser you don't have to download anything and the guy who makes it i don't know much about it and he posts on reddit or you know he he has post on reddit it's pretty big thread i think you know a little more bottom than i do with kinda like the backstory but it's a free version of photoshop that has cloned every feature of photoshop pretty much it's like it's the exact ui photoshop which is crazy because photoshop is such a complicated piece of software to bill and this guy just chipped away just chipped away just chip it away and basically built photo p and p as in like the the vegetable like pea and so photo p dot com you go there and it's just like one banner ad that's like how we make this money i think i think it does a million dollars a year now because so many people use this goddamn thing like students and like people who don't wanna spend photoshop is really expensive people who don't wanna buy photoshop can use photo p and get like eighty to ninety percent of the same power without any of the cost and without any of the headache of downloading a big ass one gigabyte application what oh my god i'm on it so we i know this person is that what you're saying i i remember with the first time we brought it up you had already heard about because i was like dude this i an a really obscure thing and then you're like mister obscure so you're like yeah i've seen this on reddit at the time that's i remember being like shocked that you knew about this thing because i thought i just discovered like uncovered gem you know yes i see it it's from november two thousand eighteen a i guy yes because it it got fifty thousand boats and it he started it by saying i made a free alternative to photoshop yeah ask me anything and that's how he got promotion for it yeah i like this so when you think he's making a million dollars a year doing this yeah so i i don't i don't know why but ben told me this ben gave me this topic and he was like photo you know he's like you know photo was yeah he's like you know it's been a million dollars a year so if i'm wrong ben's wrong i didn't myself but by the way i got access to similar web i've got a premium account now to connect you got the goods yeah i well someone who works at hubspot i i don't know if i can blow up their anyway i i did learn what dude i have the same way where at at twitch i was like oh dude you got a premium app annie account that's like couple thousand bucks a year to see app download stuff like share the login and they're like you know we're like a company you just buy a seat and this just the company pays for the seat if use if you think you would use this just to buy i'm like oh my they're like i felt like such a pirate like i didn't like hide i was like oh yeah of course of course i wouldn't boot like that like yeah that's not what i meant that that still try to like be a little bit less hood at sam and more like oh yeah it's like this is roi positive but right right it's actually like very much look down upon to be that way like i was negotiating with somebody and they're like wait why are you trying to like why are you trying like save us all this money negotiating with this vendor like just pay the thing and do it upfront you're like like this goes like it's like everything in my jeans i i can't not do it i was like to a hotel but it's in the motel six like i same mister two hundred dollars i always to tell people yeah like we'll take care of your a combination and it was they would actually be sleeping in my stay my ant house and i would actually go out at my girlfriend's house and they would get my bedroom i did that all the time i be yeah we'll take care of your combination because we get house got they just looked at my house so according to a similar web v gets eight point five million monthly unique they spend a ton of time on the website and most all the traffic is direct so i if you told me they this made a million dollars i would think are you sure it's on a million dollars a month i don't know because i i i gotta gotta check i think it's month i think that would be pretty pretty crazy i think i think a year because you know he's only he's not monetizing well right he's just got display ads so he's you he's got the bottom of the barrel monetization i think on the on the site yeah you could probably crush this though speaking of just well go ahead well i was gonna say like you know okay to so what so i think they're the so what here is a photo piece cool and interesting and like just a cool thing to know about but b like could you do this for more things like first of all take the whole adobe suite and do the photo p for after effects do the photo p for illustrator photo p for for the whole suite right like anything that has over x million users you could do this for what else like maybe it's like auto cad like i don't know if that's free or if you pay for or whatever you know like i forgot like what's that thing called math lab mat lab or something like that a thing that all the engineers have to use like is mat lab paid is you know great can you can you do this and and i think a version of this is called ob so have you ever used ob no what's up ob is a open source piece of software that's basically the most popular thing for every twitch streamer or youtuber so it's the easiest way to like stream from a pc high quality video and audio to twitch to whatever so for years twitch actually just up until recently twitch didn't have any way if you went to twitch like great i wanna be a streamer they're like cool go go use ob and with the hell ob twitch doesn't have a button just saying go live and same thing with youtube you go live on youtube nope can't just go live on youtube with without like using more sophisticated software and so ob is actually an open source project maintained by a small community developer but really it's just one guy gym and i met this guy and gyms like you know i don't know five foot seven and like long hair down to his kind of waist and you look like an open source you know like app developer and he's just like extremely high ethics and morals where he's just like the app is one hundred percent free he's been working on it for a decade and it's supported by donations of people who are like dude i i run my whole business off ob like sure here's ten dollars you know and and twitch twitch actually was paying him every month just to keep maintaining ob because it was like cheaper to just pay jim i don't know x thousands of dollars a month than to like have twenty engineers try to recreate this thing i think that that is cool i think that like when i hear that i'm like that's badass ass i i love that the i love that that exists right but what was my what was my thing earlier i'm like corn rose and sleeve tattoos that i respect it and i think it's that's badass ass i just don't want it today for me i'm not wearing it and that's the that's my case with this which is i'm so happy that that exists i doing it because there's a bunch of examples of this so another example is spice works spice works dot com they were doing like fifty sixty seventy million dollars a year in revenue and they ended up selling and because they raised too much money it didn't work out but they had traction and basically what what spikes or spice works did was they created software so if you're like if you have like a thousand employees and you wanted to figure out which computers you you needed to buy they created software to help you figure that out which normally cost money and they actually made money through advertising on the website in my opinion that's like neat but just charge people money for your thing because i i'd like would you rather be photo or adobe yeah i know which worse of course i know which one i'd rather be i think it's cool to actually do that free up just to get a ton of users but after a while like i was photo i would be like well i just i should just hire more engineers and which is just make some premium features and up charge and that is what i would do right i would not do this well there there's another way of looking at it which is sometimes like free doesn't mean no so for example skype was like hey free international you know like calling and whatsapp same thing why did whatsapp take because sms was actually really expensive to pay for every tax especially international texting they're super expensive so what's that free the was the growth hack and for these guys i would say freeze is also the growth hack but you know if you're if you wanna just be one person maintaining this thing and like whatever like you're where you do it matters so photoshop is still at least big but nowhere near as big as texting and calling was right that was like such a huge market and then the second thing is like if you're gonna do free find some other way to capture a ton of value so skype and what's up we're you able to capture a bunch of value using a totally different method whereas photo is like cool here's a here's one banner ad you know on and that's enough for or ob is like hey donate to me and that's it whereas ob could have like created you know either premium features or sold to twitch or you know could have done many things try to capture more value out of the free thing that they made do you know the website on splash show un splash is like alternative to getty images so getty images everyone has probably heard that word now not a lot of people probably use it we used it we paid them fifty grand a year and we were a small client getty images they pay photographers they buy right why are you paying so much because more cheaper for your options for photo libraries getty is the best so a lot of free or cheap ones they don't actually have images of of the people so for example if you wanna write about elon musk a lot of the free ones don't have good pictures of elon musk second once you get to the size that we were like we like which is not that big once you get past like five hundred thousand monthly unique you probably wanna stop doing things illegally when it comes to photos because there's all these people that yeah and which is like a it's the right thing to do right you you are using other people's stuff so you shouldn't do it it's it's okay to kinda boot it early on but after a while you should pay for it and we were a small person we're and we paid i think fifty i forget tens of thousands of dollars and anyway there was this competitor called flash i think flash is dope i think they're badass ass they were just acquired acquired recently i got a little information where i like i found i heard a little bit about what they were doing they were only doing around four ish million doll four five million dollars a year in revenue even though like hundreds of millions of their images for being downloaded right and i was actually shocked at how small they were if i had that much traction hey i would have been far more aggressive about selling ads on the site and b far more aggressive about getting subscriptions and charging a lot of money for them because this website un flash which from the outside appeared to be doing wildly well and i imagine they actually were acquired for a lot of money because if a proper person could get their hands on that they could crush it i would think but if if you have that much usage like un slash it it un slash wasn't ubiquitous but it was quite popular you can make way more money by charging money up upfront for all that stuff when un slash giving away their stuff are free i think they were only doing like four hundred five hundred thousand dollars a month in revenue right right right okay yeah that's a good that's a good example of one and one other topic i wanted to do okay which one's more interesting to you is it the a affirm for x or is it game film for salespeople i'll let you pick from those two categories a affirm okay and i have a i have a take on there that you're not gonna like oh okay good so if you don't know what a firm is a firm was a company started by max le i think am mind mixing this up no right alright so max left gen the c cofounder founder or paypal a firm went public i think this year or last year it's about seventeen eighteen billion dollar company right now and what firm does is when you're on an e commerce site you're ever going and you're buying a mattress online you go to casper website and it'll be like oh wow this mattress is twelve hundred dollars and say or or for you know ninety six easy payments of of of eight dollars you can own this mattress right so it's basically a pay as you go software that lets e commerce stores sell more stuff because if people don't have the full amount or don't or you know they're hesitant to spend a large amount of money right now you can offer them pay as you go plans with a zero effort and then they take a cut so you know you know on on our e commerce store we offer we use one called ce and says will basically say great you could buy this thing for you know four payments or eight payments of ten dollars instead of paying the full amount right now and and then they take seven percent and then they send us the rest of the money and so it is kind of a no brainer as a retailer because it just it really does improve conversion and for us customers were asking for it because they were used to buying it and it's up it's it's publicly traded company now does really well and so and there's several of these so there's after pay in australia which is even bigger after pay is a thirty four billion dollar company which is kind of interesting because normally australian companies are much much smaller cla is like big in europe i think for this i think cla is even bigger bigger than all of them exactly so car is what probably the biggest one and and so there's a kind of this war going on they're all trying to like like i think a firm partnered with shopify so it's like built into shopify now that's a big move but basically okay pay as you go interesting space kind of was one of the big ideas that just came out in the last like ten years and is a good example of once it started working the us it was not hard for people to just set me be like cool we're gonna do we're gonna do a firm for australia we're gonna do a firm for the uk we're gonna do affirm for india whatever right so think generically that was a good business idea what i thought was interesting is what else could you use it for so i heard of one company in this this year's yc batch that was doing pay as you go how don't you get access to that bro big time investors like us that's when we get access to actually yc still has not accepted me into the investor pool even though i've invested probably like ten yc companies at this point you but but but i have a friend who gave access so so that's no problem so anyways one of the companies what they do is they're a affirm for general contractors so another high ticket item you're getting you know your garage redone or whatever bathroom remodeled or you're building out you know a a multi family apartment complex or whatever they're giving the general what they did is they went to the general contractor just like that's their version of the e ecommerce store and they say hey instead of charging your client twelve grand for this you can just offer them pay as you go and it helps your client pay you money and you get a higher collection rates you know have less less kind of late payments and defaults and higher conversion rate because people can afford you this way you it makes you more affordable and they're were doing all alright they you know decent revenue and you know those early still but i thought oh this is interesting are people gonna do pay as you go in more more industries more more sectors and what else might be but i'll pause here's my tip here's my take cla after pay and affirm i like the people who start them i think they're are horrible companies for the world i think that they you they should burn down completely and not exist i think that like because it's getting people in debt it's getting people a debt it's making you buy stupid shit that you can't afford so where like where's a firm like if you go to like fashion nova like people who can't afford yep a who people who wanna do a affirm for a twenty nine dollar pair of pants i'm like don't buy those fucking pants don't use a firm don't buy any of this you don't need this bullshit don't buy it do not buy it run and also if you're gonna have to buy it don't go in debt to buy it i think this is horrible and i'm actually shocked at a guy like max lips shen who i think is a cool dude he started paypal start all this stuff as badass i he like a nerd i love nerds what are you doing this is useless you're just you know you know just started how he got the idea tell me he was so this is the version of the story i know i'm gonna be you know somebody who was there probably knows a lot more details but what i heard was there was an engineer who had so he had this lab like i had monkey inferno he had a lab called v hard valuable fun and basically it was an incubator where he said i'm gonna do any project that satisfies those three criteria it's gotta be hard it's gotta be valuable it's gotta be fun and so and then they kinda like didn't have like i think they've they've had you know a few nice companies glow came out of its fertility tracker and then a firm was the big one and max like went all in and he became ceo of a firm and all that stuff to to take it forward but the origin story from what i heard was is an engineer who had come up with like a new like database technology or database technique he's like oh look at he's like basically just like nerd he's was like look at this we could do like so much in so a little time and like with this new technique and i was like okay but what are you gonna use that for it's just kinda like blockchain it's like great blockchain but like why do we need a blockchain what are we gonna use it for does it really make this better and like there's you needed to find an application so the way that blockchain found money currency as as the core killer app what he what max realized was he came into the this guy was a e for him so for months he was just like working on this like database technology and how he was gonna use it it couldn't couldn't really figure out an application and the one day max walks in he goes dude like credit scoring and credit reporting is so like ancient we should be able to like if you're a person today i should be able to take signals from the internet social social networking data publicly available data on the internet to do instant credit worthiness versus like the way that this works today with this kind of like you go get a credit score and it's based off of like you know stuff in the in the past so he his insight was there has to be a better way to determine the credit credit worthiness of a person and he's like your database technology is actually perfect for doing that on the fly and doing that at scale and so they came together and he's like great i'm gonna like basically create this application to do this and i think at first they didn't want to do i don't think the very initial idea was what they ended up doing which was like pay as you go on commerce websites but pretty quickly they realized that's the use case that's the market that needs this the most is basically instead of like i guess my question to you would be do you also feel the do you also use a visa and mastercard like because it's just credit cards that's all this is it's just credit so do you also hate credit cards the same way you hate pay as you go you wanna know it's funny is my credit my personal credit card limit is four thousand dollars so i've got a i've i've never had any debt other i just got warn you wanna really use debit cards instead of credit i do it because lately someone has advised me to do it but for a long time no but i'm not against credit and i realized that what i'm saying is not entirely logical it's definitely emotionally driven and you're saying and and i'm not like going this hardcore libertarian route which is like well i'm like against the government therefore all government is bad i'm like no no like i'm gonna draw i so what i'm doing right now is basically i'm drawing the line right which i get is just that's that's not always the best but i think that credit cards in some cases are good and a affirm and most cases are bad that's what i think okay i think that's you know that's fine because the people like do you know do do you have any do you know like in europe like our friend ramon and a lot of my other friends from europe they are like you know credit cards we don't use credit cards like and and germany yeah like in in a lot of places in europe if you use we bid days properly yeah which by the way whatever people were flip it out over covid and toilet paper i'm like dude take a shower like one fuck you flip it out over this why do you fighting over this anyway you're gonna shower every time you shit how it's gonna be twice today but like it's it's the inconvenience is not bad enough that i'm gonna fight over that that's fine that's that's what i'm saying not gonna like stab someone in and like no i'm not go to jail over this like i'll just take a shower or i'll just be uncomfortable anyway i just think like credit cards aren't that common in europe i they're it's definitely an american thing but long story short i am not in favor of a affirm i think that that is a stupid thing to spend his life working on that's my opinion i would love for him if i we could go him or verbatim him into coming on here and and convincing me of otherwise because i i'm open minded but i think it's dumb i think it's stupid for general contractors that's a little bit different but for buying like a twenty nine dollar pair of pants like don't fucking buy the pants well i my family member trains his daughter in j and so maybe maybe we could use the the daughter j connection to get max on the pod very soon am i wrong though do agree or disagree i disagree completely i think credit is a great thing it helps the economy move i i'm always a kind of don't hate the player hate the game type of situation where i put the burden on the individual in the same way that i wasn't like oh my god j or like you know like is you know is is greg goose evil because it's alcohol and alcohol causes problems no like i don't think so i think it i i basically for myself i live my life where i never blame a company for tricking me into like doing something i blame myself if i don't have the self control and like thought process it to do it and so that's how i i look at others too i will never blame a credit card company for for somebody getting in debt now what i do say is if you're not transparent about what the fees are what the charges are what the rates are then that's shady right you're withholding information you're not disclosing you're hiding the fees but but in this case they don't charge people more for you know for buying a lot of the times it's zero percent interest actually because they they can offer the customer zero percent interest because they take seven percent from the merchant for helping them close the sale and so it's actually a interesting model compared to interesting i didn't know i didn't know it depends on the credit worthiness this if like when i i i bought a eight sleep mattress using a firm and i was like because i was i wanna put to spend like two grand right now oh i'll try this affirm thing and i was like oh this is cool i can just pay in payments and it's zero percent interest because i had tried doing it i also have a eight sleep i tried doing it with there and i actually hit was gonna have to pay like a pretty hefty fee i was like oh no because you don't credit cards don't have high credit something like some reason i don't have a good credit my credit score is is not bad anymore but it was bad because i didn't have history anyway well i i've one one last idea on this which is i think this is the same thing as like you probably know what lay away is don't even really fully understand what lay is lay sounded like a total scam to me it's silly it's silly basically like what it is is if you wanna buy a five hundred dollar thing you would go each week and you would give them a little bit of money and it would start paying down your balance and then eventually you'd get that item right because you don't like with a firm you get the item first and then you pay later buy now pay later right that's the that's you have to remember there's a the one big thing which is like is that if if if it's gonna take you three months to purchase and you can't if you don't have the internet to buy stuff like you wanna guarantee that they're gonna like that's yours right and i guess for me it's like items really out of stock but but apparently there's a huge thing like walmart like in most parts of the country lay away is like a huge part of their business and it's a it's a seems like a pretty predatory thing in a way but i i don't know too much about it so i shouldn't really speak on it but anyways i guess my my point is why aren't people doing a firm for retail stores so why isn't this the same option every time i check out you know my wife goes and shops set i don't know wherever you know nordstrom like when she checks out there they're like oh you know do wanna open a nordstrom card or whatever why isn't it hey you wanna pay the full amount today or would you like to pay an installments and you could pay this office now maybe this is already the case i don't know but like it seems like something that should be built into the point of sale at retail stores i don't do a ton of retail shopping stuff yeah this might be me being dominated actually is totally a thing does a firm plug in to shopify yes and do a lot of people use shopify too but like nordstrom doesn't but like a a coffee shop might yeah not really they're trying to do more of that square is definitely trying to do a lot of like retail plus online blah like you know brick and mortar and online so maybe square does it but but i think a lot of retailers that just have their old school pos still this is like one of those rare topics that you're bringing up and i'm like i don't know like how do people buy stuff at stores that we done yeah i we should just smoothly exit this exit this topic before we yeah before tries to share we gotta find the emergency exit this one okay i let just wrap it up that's a good good episode i feel like i could rule word i know i could be what i want to from at all in it like a day's off on a road travel never looking back like