#169 - How One Man Started 5, Billion Dollar Companies, Dan Gilbert's Empire, & Talking With Warren Buffett

but it's pretty crazy i i got a chance to talk to warren buffett on the phone some some guy i i was talking to i was saying you know i'm trying to figure out phil and how to give money away and literally he goes oh you talked to warren buffett and i was like what do you mean and then he just like cc intro me to warren buffett right is one of the weirdest things that's ever happened to me and it was amazing and i was like kinda nervous like warren buffett like my hero you know i i was never not expecting this it was just like a random friday and warren buffett secretary emails me back and just says oh yeah you know call calm whenever you know he'll he'll pick up and so i call and they got i could put right through and it's just warren freaking buffett on the phone and basically he said you know oh yeah i'm not doing anything i can talk for as long as you want and i just got to pick his brain for an hour and it was in insanely inspiring yeah i feel like i could rule to where to know i could be what i want to from at all in it like a days off on a road less travel never look back alright sean is out with his new baby i asked andrew to come on and do this and i wanted to do a special segment today called billy of the week we actually used to do these at the end of some episodes but people liked it and i wanna to do it more often i asked andrew to come on we have two people who were ready to discuss and andrew andrew doesn't know the format the way that here's what i wanted to do i'll go first because i think i did more research than you but it looks like you actually did a fair bit i'll go first i'm wanna tell you who i'm talking about and i'm gonna explain to me to you why they're interesting and then maybe and i and i pick this person on purpose maybe you can tell me who or like what other opportunities are in this space or and i kinda pick someone similar to you but the guy is probably twice your age so he's further along his journey but i think it's interesting to you but we can also talk about anything else we wanna talk about as we go yeah sounds awesome also what's going on how are you you enjoying being the ceo or the founder of a publicly traded company yeah yeah it's interesting it's kind of like you know when you start your company it's really exhilarating you know you have your first employees you start dealing with problems and you've never done it before so your stress level is like ten out to ten when you're first doing it you're like i don't know what matters i don't know what best practices are if i have a problem with an employee how do i deal with it all that kind of stuff it's that same learning curve so it's like incredibly exhilarating and exciting having a public company it's like a huge milestone but at the same time i'm like i'm like a new entrepreneur like i don't know what actually matters who to listen to where to focus sometimes and that's just you know you do anything new and it's stressful so it's been stressful for sure but now i feel like we're on the other side of it we're starting to feel figure it out and it's been really good is your stock i have i i checked your stuff once a week is it up this week or down or do you not even look i think it's it's kinda coast i try not to look at it yeah it's kinda jumping between about six hundred and fifty million and a billion dollars depending on the week wow and our podcast has been growing a ton and people have criticized me for that doing introductions so first of all i'm sam par i c host us with sean per who is now way more famous than i am because he's crushing it on content but i started this thing called hustle just sold it for mid eight figures to hubspot and then andrew is a friend of sean and i andrew i'll do a quick introduction for you and then you could say but andrew started this thing called medal lab which is a an agency that makes all types of amazing stuff and using the products or using the profit from his agency he went and bought a ton of companies and invested in a ton of stuff now his whole enterprise does like a hundred million ish in revenue very profitable and he just did a back and took one of his pixel union one of or we commerce he took one of his companies that make shopify plug ins and took it public and it's now at a six five hundred six hundred seven hundred million dollar market cap did i miss anything there yeah i mean i i kind of i always think on the i'm a designer who ended up becoming an investor just like a sam a writer who ended up becoming an entrepreneur it's been a process of just kind of stumbling into stuff and a lot of why we've gotten as big as we have is because i just i don't like doing stuff that i don't like doing and so i just kept del the stuff i didn't enjoy and when you do that a lot and it's kind of final form that's just investing where you're hiring ceos to run your companies and incentivizing them yes it's it's crazy i never would've have thought we would get to the size we're at now and it's been it's been a cool ride and the reason i'm asking this next question it's because it's related to the first story i wanna get to but how many companies does how many let's say how many companies do you guys own or partly own and then how many have you invested in and own like a like a like like a smallest check size so we control as in like we have over you know fifty fifty one percent in i think thirty five businesses and then we have another probably forty to fifty minority investments so those would be anything from like little hundred thousand dollar venture bets to minority pre equity where we might own ten or fifteen percent of a business so in a hundred range ish total deals yeah something like that so the guy i'm gonna talk about today his name is brad jacob bradley jacobs i think he goes by but we're gonna call brad jacobs and this person is super interesting because they have started five companies that have either gone public or are worth over a billion dollars he started at age twenty three he's sixty four now google and brad jacobs he's worth somewhere in the range of three four five billion dollars and he's bought or in both he doesn't like invest passively like a vendor venture check they buy companies and he's bought something like six seven hundred companies and he's done it across a variety of industries and he's done the same strategy over and over and over again in different industries and it's incredibly interesting and this guy is very fascinating to me for a variety of reasons that i'm going to explain but andrew have you heard of this guy brad jacobs do you know anything about this ever i don't know anything that's kinda why he's cool he's kind of on the under the radar if you google them he's he's got like a bald head and he looks like a finance guy because he wears a tie and he's like pretty well spoken and you think that he's just like a private equity person and i guess maybe he is but he's really an entrepreneur he's very entrepreneur entrepreneurial and he's far more interesting than just a lot of the typical new york hedge funny type of folks and so i'm gonna give you a quick story about his background so he started five things that have been quite meaningfully sized so the first was it was called am oil associates he started it when he was twenty three and it was an oil biz it was basically like an oil brokerage firm which i'm not entirely sure what that entails but i imagine it just means connecting folks who created the oil to large businesses who are buying the oil and within a very short amount of time only about four years remember he started this one when he was twenty three so by the age of twenty seven am his oil business was doing four point seven billion dollars in gross gross oil bookings meaning he would that's how much oil they're buying and and selling now i imagine his company kept a tiny percent of that like one or two or three percent but incredibly impressive for a young guy and after a few years he sells that business for a billion dollars then only a couple months after that he starts this thing called hamilton resource ham hamilton resource he starts it out of england he convince his a french bank to give him a billion dollars line of credit which he was quite successful already even though he was crazy young but he made it happen and he went and secured a a line of credit and here's what he said he goes we moved physical cargo of oil from one place to another the eighties turned out to be a great time in the oil business and i built hamilton up to about a billion dollars in revenues and did business in dozens of country dozens of countries before i moved back to the states in nineteen eighty nine so between eighty three and eighty nine he started this business and it also was huge i believe he ended up selling it for a billion dollar north of a billion dollars so that's business number two business number three a little bit of a of an odd one was waste management i don't think there's anyone out there doing waste management stuff now that's brand new but there's a ton of companies that at the time started in the seventies eighties and nineties like waste management the company waste management and what they did was they would go out and find tons of mom and pop waste management companies because back then that's how it was and probably is a little bit to this day but he started this thing called united waste management which eventually became the fifth largest solid waste business in america and it had a very very very simple business plan which was buy landfills and small markets by many of the local trucking companies that were serving those markets optimize the truck routes maximize the pricing get margins up achieve size that they had the capability to scale and they did that and the strategy worked really well and in just five years our earnings compounded anna annually by fifty five percent and and he took the company public something like eight months after starting it and the stock price went up as well fifty percent every single year for like five years eventually that company grew to three point nine billion dollars in revenue and one point two billion dollars in eb with seven hundred and fifty locations and thirteen thousand employees is this freaking crazy oh sorry that i just gave you the numbers i gave you the numbers for his next business but the waste management grew to two point five billion dollars in revenue oh sorry two point five billion dollars and and exit two ways manager no it's right that's crazy so i i one of the most interesting things about this is like there i always think there's like four different types of entrepreneurs right there's the innovators so let's just take let's take chipotle as an example right so there's the innovator there's the guy who rolled the first burrito and was like oh shit this tastes really good then there's the remix there's the person who creates chipotle they take the burrito they package it up they create a brand around it then there's the scalar the person who scales to chipotle to a hundred locations and then there's the optimize the person who just sits on top make sure it doesn't blow up and gets as much as possible it gets as much juice out lemon as they can and this guy's a great example of a scaler someone who just takes something that already works that's already proven and just does a much better job of it and rolls it out makes it scalable and build something massive and it's super it's super interesting because i'd say i i kind of fall into this camp at the same time i feel like what's sexy about this guy is actually boring the businesses are right they're they're so basic these are things that are like un unacceptable and when you build them it's like a hundred year business or something which i think is really cool whereas what we do is like five you gotta think in five year chunks i completely agree and if you scroll up to this document that we have open and you click source the source that i'm using for a lot of this and this is so interesting so we're on business number three i'll i'll get to four and five in a second but when he what this guy does and then when i wrap up all five i'll explain to you what my lessons learned from the guy are but i'll tell you one of them right now which is what this guy does is he raises money like a mad man and it's not like a ridiculous amount i mean i saying you're raising tens of millions of dollars i guess for the for the average show yeah that is a ridiculous amount but he's got a track record and he turns them into multi billion dollar things but so so kind tens of millions of dollars is not that much money but if you click that source thing what what does that take you to could the sec okay i found this file on the sec and i don't really know what this is but i don't even remember how i came across it but this is what interested me it's a q and a session of him having written it out and he basically lays out the strategy of his fourth and fifth business and so what this appears to be is a q and a that he prepared and they show this to a ton of potential of investors a ton a ton of potential banks and they decide to invest in him and i think this was before the company even started is that what that is so you're saying this is what he raised on like there's no deck there's nothing that's just this is the thing he goes out and he says read this document and you can invest i'm not entirely sure but i think that is part of it i i it's this is called a schedule fourteen which i i'm not an expert in the sec i believe that is something that you have to answer before a board of directors at a publicly traded company raises money but i'm not entirely sure but it's interesting though because he writes in wonderful straightforward simple english and you could read his entire strategy which i'm gonna go through in a second but skim that while i well i i'll i'll summarize the next two businesses that he did so he started i told you he started two oil things but basically those were oil brokerage businesses then he started well waste management business now his fourth one is called united rentals and i don't know if you see this in canada but if you pay attention to this now and if you're listening to this and you live in america go on a drive in downtown the downtown city wherever you live and look at the big box trucks and look at the rental equipment so look at them like the caterpillars pillars or the bob cats or the the the construction equipment as well as the porta pot and anything involving construction or trucking go and look at those things and i guarantee you on a lot of them you're gonna see united rentals well that is the fourth company that he started and he started it with the idea of the same thing of voice management he wanted to go out and he wanted to find a massive industry that was highly segmented by small businesses what that were profitable and great but they didn't have enough capital to grow and they were kinda bad at sales and that's what he did and so he founded it and in just five years five years it grew to four billion in revenue and one point two billion in eb and he growing via acquisition or is he just rolling this out and crushing competition across the country we're gonna talk about that but what he said when we got there partly through acquisitions partly through organic growth developed by developing greenfield locations he goes we grew by using the same strategy at united waste we bought about two thirds of the branch locations and cold started another third from scratch i actually prefer cold starts is what he said the business plan for united rentals was to become the largest equipment rental company in the world and leverage our purchasing power branding and other advantages of size within thirteen months we became number one leap bro leap frog hurts which had become the equipment rental which was the number one equipment rental business in nineteen sixty five another thing we did was we went fast we went public fast we formed the company on labor day weekend and we were trading on the new york stock exchange by december labor day weekend is in may i think right mh so they started the company in may and five months is that sick seven months that's seven months later they were public merrill lynch said it was the fastest growing or the fastest ipo they have ever seen and i stepped down and so he stepped down of united rentals in two thousand seven this is only five years after starting and to start the next company but when he stepped down united rentals if you look it up now i believe their market cap is twenty five billion dollars so he spent five years on this company and it's worth twenty five billion dollars crazy so listen to what he did after this after i stepped down i began looking for my next big thing i studied tons of industries and i ended up concentrating on transportation and logistics it's larger and more fragmented than the industries i've been i've previously been involved in it's a thirteen billion dollar sorry a thirteen trillion dollar industry and here's what this guy says this guy at the time is already multi billionaire but let me see if i i have he wrote out what he does which was basically he basically spends three months he reads tons of reports and then he calls a hundred experts in each industry and he just goes and he sits down with them and just ask them questions it might as well be a podcast all that's like exactly how he learns so he's this multi billionaire there he's his big shot he's done all this amazing stuff and he calls these people and he just sits down and he listens that's all he does it's pretty amazing and he did this and then he's in this with his new thing it's called ex xp lo just logistics have you heard of i have i have heard of this i think it's a delivery and logistics company like a competitor to fedex at least that's my understanding well we'll put this in the show notes but in that document top that is the document from where he was raising money for xp logistics and in plain it looks it looks like it's like supply chain so it's like getting people things they need that are critical on time well in there he in that document that i sent to you she i didn't i i i couldn't study the whole thing but in plain english she explains kinda what they did and his reasoning for getting into it and he just says well i just studied loads of industries this one seemed industry interesting i went and interviewed a hundred people who are experts on it i hired really good people and we're gonna do x y and z and that x y and z is exactly what he's done in his last businesses and now i wanna wrap up by by giving you guys incredibly detailed stats or incredibly detailed strategy on what he does so his first thing that he does he looks for huge industries with lots of fragmentation that are small and profitable but don't have capital to to scale so here's what he says he goes was in a nutshell this is how you ramp up a business you buy a brokerage or some have a small business with thirty million dollars in revenue and you add thirty to forty bodies to it and you double revenue in time i've looked into companies that have executed this plan but most of them don't have the capital to sustain it i try to find those businesses and i bring all the capital to do it the second thing that he does is he hire salespeople people so he says i like to hire hungry talented salespeople at a low base but big upside for incentives i fund their training for a few months and it's not that hard for the winners to build a million dollar book after a year or so it's a business where you have to make ninety nine calls a day and do one or two deals so you have to hire people who are psycho i i actually don't know this word what's this we have to hire people who are psycho chromatic test high on the need to win scale and low on the need to be like scale a salesperson will have a base of twenty five thousand or thirty five thousand but can make many times that amount through an incentivize a really good incentive program once you get the right people in the system and integrate them on the right it it can be really powerful and finally speaking of it when someone asked him what was the best acquisition of all time they ever made he said they made a powerful software acquisition with a politically incorrect name called rental man and we used that to integrate all of our rental businesses we rolled up into that company we couldn't have made the hundreds of acquisitions we did without rental man and that was his best acquisition all time and that my friend is brad jacobs and i can go on soon i i i both love and and find these guys kinda of mysterious and i kinda wonder like what the thing that's missing in all this is like what keeps him going what's his purpose how do you how does he use his money and and like why does he do this right what's the driving force i researched him and the guy looks like a wall street stiff did you look up what he looks like yeah he looks kind of like there's like a character actor that he looks like i'll try and find a photo of them i he's like a nerdy bob like steve balm looking kinda guy yeah he looks like he would be like in biden or trump's cabinet yeah yeah but i've actually seen interviews with them he's very end and i think that he's not actually just a stiff like wall street like just milk all the numbers out i actually think that he just this is his bill this is his urge he just loves to build and and and and he constantly talks about integrity he goes the common denominator of everything we buy is the people who we buy from have to have high integrity and also one of our mo is we take care of the people of the businesses who work for the businesses that we're inheriting in fact the biggest risk of our plan is that the people who we buy companies from they leave and so we treat them all really really well and so i don't think this is actually bullshit because when i got his energy from interviews i actually believe that he was a good dude and this is just his art what do you think though what do you think he does with his money that is that kind of public does he do any fl three or or anything because i always find it so interesting i mean there's two ways to look at like doing good in the world it's like okay you you do cap right you employ a whole bunch of people you make an industry more efficient you added global gdp you know good things happen because he does this right but on the flip side like what's driving make more money and maybe it is just continually man going industry by industry and improving them and optimizing them that's his like gift or whatever but but the guy to talk about next is really interesting because he basically uses all his money to do crazy good things right which is really fascinating i'll talk about him in a minute but do you have any sense of what this guy does like no with his money like the like he's very much that's like i i don't i cannot figure it out but i will i can wrap this up by saying there's a few things that i've learned from this person the first is like taking the red pill which is like have you heard i i don't know someone just use that phrase to me there today and i'm and and i'm and i'm picking it ship you should be careful it's associated with all sorts of not so not so positive connotation oh well i didn't know that what i mean is like yeah i guess his per perspective like when you look at what this person's capable of doing you think or when you read what he's done if you didn't know it was true you would say less impossible no one can do that but the person has done it repeatedly over and over and over again and he seems pretty nonchalant s about that and so my what i'm learning from him is that you can create these amazing things and it's hard but maybe could be kind of simple well it's so inspiring right you basically go find an industry that has let's let's look at the restaurant and industry in general right restaurants are disorganized they're very difficult businesses they're very low margin people have done this essentially in restaurants by building fast food chains right you go in you build systems you do training you incentivize people the right way and you can make a lot of money doing that but you can't make a lot of money usually in an individual restaurant so what he's has done is he's gone out in fun he finds these fragmented disorganized industries like you know waste management or logistics and he goes okay i'm gonna do the fast food chain except for that industry it's yeah and and it's really really cool the second thing that that i learned is he actually does the same thing as you well i actually don't know your numbers but i bet you they're similar he likes to buy companies between five and ten times earnings and that's like his number that's what i mean that yeah i'd say i'd love to buy businesses for that that valuation or whatever but the problem the problem with buying a business that that valuation is like you're buying kind of a crappy business often if it's gonna be that low well these are trash what what he's doing yeah exactly what he's doing is kind of building a platform where like i just need one so i can build the systems and then i can go and acquire a whole bunch more and the final thing and then we can move on is the guy loves debt and oftentimes that ends bad but i personally have zero debt in my life and i've never really had debt and i actually think though that not having debt or not having some type of leverage with is silly and i've read articles about them and he talks about it very une emotionally like he seems like it really charismatic emotional guy but he's like yeah look like this makes total sense because i can grow this business at thirty percent therefore the cost if i look at the cost of capital i should allocate capital this and it just makes sense and i hear that i'm like yeah everything you're saying makes total sense i'm just so fearful and it's really cool that you don't seem to have that fear and i think that's interesting yeah and i think that that's it goes back to like not having fatal potentially potential blow ups in your life right so i've heard everything from like you know i was talking to a guy and he was saying i'm super rich guy and he goes i've paid off my house in full and never have a mortgage or whatever and it just gives him that sense of security maybe this guy has he's so rich he's already made a whole bunch of money on other stuff that he can take a little more risk or he knows how to structured debt or whatever it is you hear both things and the problem is you only hear the stories about the guys who lever up and did really well there may be a whole bunch of other brad jacob types who went out lever up and it totally fuck them they hit a speed bump yeah all the money so that the interesting thing about this though the and the difference between what we do in this guy is this guy is essentially starting a new business and what we like to do is find a business that's already working where we can actually just leave it and make it you know maybe we'll help plug in a new ceo or something like that but we're actually not messing with it we're not changing the dna this guy's like modifying the dna he's doing like crispr on these businesses he's working working them this them and turning that he's working really hard right so i don't like to work hard i get really excited when i hear about people like this i'm so glad they exist but i'm like oh my god this a big lift i don't wanna a big lift but it does seem cool it's cool it's this is like corn rose or sleeve tattoos i think they're cool i just don't want it they're cool for certain people and it works great for that exactly base tattoos not like great for something second that it's pretty sick that's what else has it but i don't if i want it totally totally yeah and i i i i think again i'm going back to like this guy does make the world better because he employs a lot of people in industries where you know people aren't getting laid off because of this guy right because he's managed this business better he can probably pay people better give them more opportunity he's not gonna lay them off because he's got this global business so it's very it's very positive but what i would wanna understand is what's the guy do with the money what's driving him like is he like a sad empty hole or he's like i have to keep doing this all the time or is he like you know donate it all to charity or views this as super philanthropic in and of itself i'm super curious about that i don't know i i like the only thing that i saw is that he has a good glass door rating which i actually much everyone dismiss glass door but i'm like yeah it there is like got made fun up from the michael sailor podcast that brought that up i'm like yeah it's not like facts but it's like there's a signal that you can learn a little bit from it's the glass door people only go on glass or when they really hate you so it's like the voices of the people who hate you most and if the people who hate you most are saying good things or at least okay things that's a really good sign right so anyway it's interesting but let's move on to your guy because i actually know who this guy is or i know of him so yeah my guy is dan gilbert and the reason i thought he was super interesting i've talked about him a little bit in the past but this guy has had a freaking massive year so you know two years ago or something he was worth like six seven eight billion dollars baby billionaire now he's worth fifty seven billion wait five and seven five seven fifty seven he's number twenty one one of the wealthiest people in the united states and this is he's had a crazy couple years so i think it was about two years ago he had a massive stroke so he was on the golf course with a friend and the doc the friend just happened to be a doctor and he said oh that's weird i'm having these symptoms so his doctor got him to the hospital and they he had a stroke in the hospital and in the hospital they were able to do this special procedure that if he hadn't been in the hospital he might have died it might have been way worse right so he got super lucky yeah and you know as lucky as one can be having a stroke horrible thing and now he's been he basically rehab himself and getting back on his feet last two years and so he's had this horrible personal tragedy but at the same time he's become worth you know six x you know as much and i bet he would give it all the way to not have had the stroke or whatever so it's super fascinating this guy he described it really well when the ipo they just ipo his mortgage business he said this is thirty year are sorry overnight success thirty years in the making so this guy's been at it for a really long time i think he's super interesting because he started with nothing his dad owned a struggling detroit bar he worked in pizza delivery he just kinda stumbled into hustling and was a good salesperson and he started a business and that business was a company called rock financial which became quicken and lunch which i'll talk about in a second one of the reasons i think he's really interested interesting is that he's invested in into his home city so his mission is to rev revitalize detroit and get it back on its feet because it's struggled a lot he's like a capitalist batman in detroit and i'll talk about some of the cool stuff he's done and one of the things i like about him as well is that he he does a lot of stuff that might not work he takes big swings takes big risk that he think can make the world better and he invest in all sorts of crazy ideas he also has five kids which i think is pretty freaking cool i love to see that with he's you know billionaires they're not just like miserable by themselves and they care about kids and stuff and seems pretty family focused and then you know he's been through these personal challenges the stroke and then also his eldest son was born with this disease called neuro f endometriosis which is like super rare and he's poured a bunch of money his own money into funding research around that disease so it's been fascinating so he said there's a quote he said when i when we grew up all i wanted to do was do two things own a sports team and a casino and now he owns both so this is kinda like a childhood dream and his companies are quicken loans which is the largest home mortgage lender in the united states the bigger than wells fargo which is freaking crazy he owns the cleveland cavalier the basketball team and a few other sports franchises until recently he owned a casino i think it was called jack which owned a whole bunch of casinos but i think he sold it and then he also owns rock ventures and rock ventures is where all the big swings happen and all the philanthropic stuff happens so they own a ton of real estate almost all in detroit and then they do venture capital and they've invested in everything from restaurants to you know real estate businesses hotels crazy tech companies and all sorts of other stuff he owns rob report which is i tell you one more can i tell you a few more things that he owns that's interesting so he owns i think he owns fat head do you know fat head yeah yeah i believe sports it's like those like big hands and stuff and like yeah you're a kid and you wanna put like a like the face of michael jordan on your wall it's like a d cal that you put on your wall i think he owns the whole thing he just bought dictionary dot com and the soar dot com totally random we were actually we helped him i i know him i'm i'll talk about that a little bit but we helped him with that acquisition a little bit oh no worries so you know about it it was like a it's like a twenty million dollar revenue thing or more maybe it's been doing that for like ten years i i i mean i don't have any insider information these are guesses and am i right yeah yeah he owns dictionary dot com at source dot com and like when you talk to him about why he bought it he's just like you know i think this is cool like he's just like i had all these ideas of things i could do with it he's not like going oh i bought it for x times eb and i'm gonna make a twenty percent return and this is what i find so cool about this guys is he'll just say yes so he owns like rob report which is like a magazine for rich people dictionary dot com he owns shy or has a very large stake in s so s has this like insane hotel in detroit they make watches he owns stock x which is like a it's basically like a stock market for sneakers and watches which is also large guys that because like he breaking on it he's like in his how is he in the seventies yet there's fifty fifty something fifty six i think he's that young wow okay yes a little bit older than like a sneaker head and he totally i he's a c right i know that so he was at he's the east sports he he's got investments in esports like just all sorts of stuff and then he's also a large lp and a lot of venture funds kinda quietly like he's the largest lp and lu love ventures he's got his own venture fund and so you you look at it and he's got this barbell right he's got a really kind of dull boring you know mortgage business which is really innovative in and of itself just what he's done is kinda like brad what he's done is like basically taking this fragmented crappy industry run by banks and small lenders and like built out this massive structure and been very innovative around culture and other stuff so i'll let me let me just give the history what happened though so basically in nine eighty five him and his little brother start rock financial which is basically a independent mortgage lender so when someone you know needs a house or whatever it is they go to them they figure out they basically make them an offer to lend them the money and then i think they go sell the risk so they would lend them the money and then they would sell it off to a bank over time and basically in the late nineteen nineties company grew into a huge business one of the largest independent in the united states and with the dot com boom they launched an internet strategy where they just made rock financial i think it was rock financial dot com or digital mortgage dot com or something like that and in and in two thousand what was it no nineteen ninety seven or something intuit acquired their business because they were like oh my god this is like you know this huge disruptive digital finance thing and so what ended up happening is the dot com boom blew up and in two thousand two he came back and he bought his business back we sold it for a ton of money into it her sale was ninety million okay that he basically i i don't know i don't have the exact number here but something like that so you know the guy made a lot of money especially for the nineties but he wasn't like a crazy billionaire yet then he raised money from investors so himself and some friends went back to intuit bought it back i don't know what the number was and what's it's interesting is they kept the quicken loans name so intuit owns quicken the financial personal finance software and they branded it quicken and so now there's this weird other business they own called quicken loans even though that's an intuit brand so it's kind of a funny thing and it just kept he basically took it took it back got rid of all the crap that intuit had added and started growing at a grant again and this whole time he's living in detroit and watching his own city totally fall apart so in the financial crisis you know detroit i think went bankrupt and he and meanwhile is like super rich and living out in the suburbs and he says fuck it we're moving back into detroit and he moves his entire team into detroit so we had four thousand or so employees they literally bought if you actually go to detroit there's this it's called campus mart or something and it's right in the center of downtown this huge building and he moved and there and he basically said for my own employees and for the city we're just gonna fix it and so he built casinos he built like a private security firms so if you walk around there's like there's like normal police and then there's like dan's police he bought billions of dollars of da like buildings you know literally like you go there and there's like skyscrapers and he's just it's like going to chicago and he's like oh yeah i own the sears tower and this and this and like basically all of downtown to detroit he owns like twenty thirty percent of and he also just announced that he's gonna pay off three hundred million dollars of property taxes for detroit residences so this guy really really cares about detroit and since since he started it it's now become the largest independent mortgage business in in the united states you know they've gone public they had this huge ipo and it's been it's been a crazy story yeah but what i what i i i love what this guy is just he's got such a cl crazy collection of businesses i think if i remember correctly i think i'm i think i'm right but i believe he sold it for ninety he bought it back for like twenty and i think he took it public did he take it public like either recently or right away quite recently like it was like like a six months ago and he owned most of it when it went public he owned like eighty five or ninety percent of it and it was totally crazy what's the market cap now the market cap is let's see here market keeps forty six billion dollars wow so yeah where's the other ten billion come from just as other stu just as other owns a lot a lot of real estate you think the cavalier are probably worth you know five hundred million to ability forgot of us the whole part here chinos you know all these stock x is worth i think a couple billion dollars now so he's just got this crazy collection of stuff and and so chris and i got to meet him the other cool thing about this guy is like he's just a wildcard card like i so i read about him in the new new york times they did this profile of him and i i have this habit of just cold emailing people i think are interesting and like ninety five percent of the time i just don't hear back but i wrote him an email at like one in the morning and said hey you you know i'd love to meet you and i get an email back like five minutes later and he's just like yeah sure and then i gotta a follow up from his assistant and we ended up flying to detroit and it you know sometimes when you go and meet these billionaires they're like whatever you know you walk in you got twenty minutes with them that's that he was like incredible they like plan this whole tour of detroit it was like this two day thing like they set us up in their hotel and then dan spent like two hours with us and he's just a super nice guy he's like deeply interested in what we're doing and super engaged and like every business i mentioned to him he'd be like how does that work how can we get involved what we do how can we do it like he wants to say yes to ideas which i always find really inspiring right because i think some of these people have gotten really rich they've gotten rich by being like hyper disciplined and just saying note to everything but he says yes before no that's really interesting that's what sean acts like and i use i usually say no to everything sean says yes to everything and my joke is that like i'm like my success is probably gonna be quite predictable and it will be really good sean success is he's gonna goo go completely broke a die like bad die young or he's gonna become billionaire super fat like you know it's like a it's a high risk high reward thing and that's not the reality but that's my joke but and you actually can you tell the story of how you met someone recently who's a big deal and they said like oh just call whenever like i'm free all day yeah so i recently got i don't don't have name if you don't want to yeah well i got i it was pretty crazy i i got a chance to talk to warren buffett on the phone some some guy i i was talking to i was saying you know i'm trying to figure out phil and how to give money away and literally he goes oh you just talked to warren buffett and i was like what do you mean and then he just like cc intro me to warren buffett right is one of the weirdest things that's ever happened to me and it was amazing and i was like kinda nervous like warren buffett like my hero you know i i was never not expecting this it was just like a random friday and warren buffett secretary emails me back and just says oh yeah you know call calm whenever you know he'll he'll pick up and so i call and they get i could put right through and it's just warren freaking buffett on the phone and basically he said you know oh yeah i'm not doing anything i can talk for as long as you want and i just got to pick his brain for an hour and it was insanely inspiring right like this guy he was exactly who you'd expect him to be i find with a lot of these guys it's like don't meet your heroes and they're not who they appear to be it day he's available all day he talked me for an hour and a half and he was just the nicest guy he's exactly like he was on his cnbc interviews showed a ton of interest in what i was doing and like i literally just like grilled him for like thirty minutes was he was crazy and so yeah he's definitely on a landline and it it was just it's always it's always really nice when someone is what you hope they'd be that's great so we'll bring it back to gilbert but just so you know i have a feeling the clip that you just said about buffett that's gonna go viral so hopefully you're okay with that and if you're not you could tell us alright you you have something here about a strategy in his culture because i actually wanna know what motivates this guy and do you think that he was so i actually sent this to i think i i used newspapers dot newspaper dot com and i actually like the to read old articles and i read a ton of old articles about rock financial and even before it got bought by quicken dan was like a detroit guy it seemed like and was like he was very confident not arrogant but he was like he just had the it factor at a young age it seems like and then i read his what's it called the ten k or s one when they go public and he was like thirty and everyone on his company was like in their forties so it was like he was like a young guy and the business was booming and very interesting very seemed like a very confident person at a young age what do you think i think he's been super rich for a long time well yeah gonna say like he says this great quote he says one of our things is that money follows it does not lead so we want people that are fired up and passionate about their mission and people that aren't so married to spreadsheets and thinking that kind that kind of voodoo controls the future because it doesn't so this theme of doing things because it's cool or because it makes sense or because you're driven to do it versus based on financial analysis and that's the feeling i get about this guy is like he says yes and he wins it and he takes risks and he takes big bets and i i think it goes back to this thing of what's the point of making a bunch of money if you're not gonna try and do cool stuff with it and so he's just very very inspiring in that way and one of the ways that he wins is that he focuses massively on culture so when we visited him you know he probably had five or six thousand employees at the time and he said i still personally onboard every single employee so once a month i go into like a conference center and there's a you know a hundred or two hundred new employees coming in and i will spend all day with them talking to them about our culture and what you know what we represent and he gave me this book and he it calls it ism these are the like the ideals that that they live by or whatever and usually you get these stupid corporate bs e things like you know we value integrity or whatever but it's the series of of kind of like words to live by so you know some of them yes before no money doesn't follow it leads we'll figure it out every second counts a penny saved is a penny you know don't ob obsessed over saving just do the right thing anyway i i just love how he does that and then i also love again this barbell strategy where he's got a conservative cash flowing business and that fund crazy shit and big bets and interesting stuff and you know he also said anyone who dies with money in the bank is a failure right so this is not a guy who's gonna go hoard it or whatever he's gonna give it all back to society which i think is super cool that's great do you think that does he have so none of us would have been possible without quicken working out yeah was he has he was he always hands on or did he delegate right away you think well he's got this really smart ceo called jay far and jay my understanding is jay now runs that business and dan floats above doing all of his different stuff but i don't know i think jay been there for a really long time so i'm not sure but i think he was the he's the chairman or something i think he's kind of taken that role where he starts up the business he's super involved he's still hands on but he he kinda lets someone else operate at day to day damn this is awesome i i've heard him talk my and i judged him incorrectly i think because he's a nice dresser and he's kinda good looking i and he like slick like literally slick his hair back i thought that he was frankly kind of a douche and i heard him talk a couple times and i'm like oh wait this guy is not how i thought he was gonna super humble yeah he he talks like with a michigan accent he is super down to earth super funny like we when we were meeting him we're like god this guy's is like he owns casinos he's got slick back hair he almost dresses like a gangster or something he's got like kind of like curious look to him yeah yeah you look i you know there's a story about him like punching a guy in the face at a party like you're kinda like who is this guy but when you meet him he's just completely real and down to earth and cool and and i would say one we've met lots of very successful people and i'd say he's one of the only ones that i would go you know there's just a small list of people where i'd go i'd really wanna be like this guy right i'd love to trade lives with him is he grinding still or does he relax a little well i don't know i mean i think with the stroke there's a question of you know did he have the stroke because he was stressed or you know high blood pressure i i don't know but i i'm not sure i i don't know what his approach to work is or whatever haven't worked super deeply with him i mean we looked at that dictionary dot com thing for him give him our feedback on what we would do with it and we've we've done like you know metal lab worked with with quicken loans a little bit and dan's lit me up before via text saying you know this design sucks and you need to make it better but again like that's what's cool about him is like he's running this freaking sixty billion dollar empire and yet he's still texting me going hey this website sucks and that color is wrong and you know tweak this he's just a he's a real person right and so many of these guys they're like rep right these build biz they're they're too slick they they're never you know never out of place they won't admit any of their flaws and you know it's it's neat when you meet people and they're just real they're flawed human beings they're doing cool stuff that's great i've i've just become a dan gilbert fan i i prepared more than you i think and i think you you picked the right guy in new won i think i think you've won i've become a you've convinced me to become a a gilbert fan a dan gilbert fan he he also is really in the hip hop culture so like he did i think he's the biggest investor in rap genius which is not really relevant anymore but prepared for worse yeah for better for worse correct but it's whatever i mean you you're gonna lose sometimes if you say yes everything and but that's cool that he said yes to that and he's in so he's kinda got like street cr and he does actually seem him like a pretty cool guy and then that dictionary dot com deal i the according to the news it said that he bought it for a hundred million which pretty sick i bet you that company could do ten or fifteen million dollars a year profit if it wanted to but you would know more than i do but that's pretty sick i'm a i'm a dan gilbert fan now yeah me too ab b what do you think of our first episode of billy billy but billy of the week i like and i think there's is a lots of take from both those guys i'm curious to see what people's reactions are gonna be but i think this could become a weekly thing sick i think we're scheduled to do it for at least one more week right andrew are we doing we're you gonna do the same for at next time you wanna do a different one well i like well i like doing this but the research is annoying it's so much fun when i can just wing it i have something cool for you so okay at hubspot we now have two full time researchers so if you'd like we can send a couple people to them i mean i didn't do it this time but a bra you can we'll look it up you mentioned a few people who you're interested in and our researchers will take care of it oh dude i love that it's awesome so if you're interested mister mister corporate big shot i know it's trust me well where's is your crazy camera setup up are you on your like crazy dslr right now no but have you you've seen it right it's real nice right yeah it looks amazing i i'm driving to saint louis to meet a newborn baby my my niece but i am i'm stopping in oklahoma city to meet up with a bunch of listeners because that was like the middle ground and so i just tweeted out i'll be in oklahoma city and like fifty people signed up so i decided to stop and stay and meet people and i'm gonna drive saint louis tomorrow isn't it isn't it crazy when you think about i remember doing this with our we had this invoicing software like ten years ago or whatever and it was really small we had thousands of customers and you don't realize like for you you're just doing a podcast and you see these numbers it's like yeah look we got twenty thousand listeners or whatever when you actually think like okay there's actually twenty thousand people all over the world listening to you who feel like they know you and when you tweet out that hey i'm in oklahoma city some random city in the united states and fifty people show up in person that's freaking cool it was even more yeah i was shot more people try to rs and then i tweeted that i was in oh or i was going here and then someone was like hey i own this fancy hotel would you like to stay here i go yep you guys have a restaurant and he goes yep i go alright i'm gonna have fifty people come and we just created an event by right page and it's sold out right i mean you vaccinated yeah oh dude it's taken forever in canada it's gonna be like another two months yeah i'm vaccinated and i still wear the mask to make people comfortable but i'm vaccinated so i'm going i don't know i i i i i don't even know you get two dose or one dose two which ones that modern yeah yeah there's one of those yeah i'm so jealous i'm so i'm so done i'm and my wife got it done and so that's why i'm i'm i'm traveling a bit do you think that this will be like you're gonna be happier as a result of this like you have this shit it's kinda like you had a hundred days of rain and then all a sudden it's sunny and you appreciate it way more than if you lived in southern california like did you just have like a boring year and now it's super exciting does it feel like you've just been later a prison or something from a personal perspective from a business perspective from fitness from bop from like my body's and and i don't wanna sound call because i know there's bad stuff covid was so good to me i i loved i mean i kicked ass my family night we we we crushed it i enjoyed the downtime i enjoyed getting fit i enjoyed moving business wise business boomed are you in the same boat no i would say if if anything like i have a tendency to be a work and so what i used to do is i would go work at a cafe and then i'd run into my buddies who would also go to the same cafe or someone i knew would come and i'd have lunch with them or i'd go for a walk and it would just force me to kinda get away from work and have more perspective and break up my day or i'd be still working but i'd be going from meeting to meeting to meeting and getting eye contact and facetime and now all i do is work right like i'm just it's basically i'm at a i'm at a house like a work out of a house that we rent and then i drive home and that's it and it's been this winter it's been too cold up here in canada to really go and sit on a patio and so it's it's a total bummer and i'm like an extreme ex like i love spending like two three hours with other people every day so it's been it's been grinding on me for sure why don't you come down to texas because well so my wife and i've been building a house for last three years we're moving into the new house at the end of this month and otherwise i've been i've gone to my wife but like we just need to move to hawaii for six months and just f off go get vaccinated and then wait for the border to reopen the reason i can't fly out to texas is if i fly over the border when you come back to canada there's a mandatory two week government quarantine even if you're vaccinated so it means with two kids i gotta be stuck in the house or by myself my kids can't go to school it's just like that's not fun do you the the downside that i've had is so many i've met people digitally and i hate that i have so many online friends and so my phone texts are always my i get so many and and it's not like because i'm necessarily popular but i get so many text messages i get so many emails i do phone calls all the time and so my problem is i don't want people to contact me anymore or i just ignore them and so goes back to like this problem that you'd be so stoked to have like five years ago like i have the same problem of like i post on twitter and then someone dm me hey check up my business and would you get on the phone with me and talk about it and five years ago it would have been like stoked i'm like oh my god i can help all these entrepreneurs and make all these new friends and now it's like i get twenty of those a day and i just want everyone to leave me alone and like i'm trying to figure out how to even just deal with the amount of email and text i'm getting and this is this is the downside with scale right like with thirty five businesses there's always something happening there's always a problem to solve or some a text to respond to or an email and so it's pros and cons right i always make this kind of i historically i always kinda claim to be this guy where i'm like oh i have this great life i have all this freedom i don't run my businesses but that worked when we were twenty companies two years ago now i'm hitting this threshold where i'm like okay i'm back to being busy again how do i restructure it yeah you're gonna you're gonna have to hire a it it you did to one you gotta hire someone to run that i need a chief of staff i hate that title i i i find that so douche sushi no you need a ceo of tiny now maybe yeah i would love i love these like silicon valley ceos who are hiring an assistant they're like i need a chief of staff like i'm the president that's so ridiculous yeah they should just replace themselves and then the second thing that you did which might hurt you but you got you'll figure your way out is you painted the picture of yourself as this guy who's was like what are you guys talking about like so easy why you work so hard like and now that's you're doing it everyone's gonna be like told you told you well i i think the way i describe it is when you okay so when you look at other people's businesses and you've hired executives or you've let's say let's say you a bakery right and there's there's your what you're looking at a bakery owner and they're fucking staying up until two in the morning baking they're sleeping for four hours they're working the till they're covered in flour and you're looking at them in going dude it's so easy just go hire a staff and build a manual right like this is not rocket science and then you do that and now you're the ceo of the bakery and now you gotta deal with people problems in a different level of of issues and to me it's like i've done the right stuff and i've hired great ceos as i have all that it's just now there's like too many different things to keep tabs on in my brain and i think humans aren't designed for thinking about more than like two problems at once no so i have like ten problems or thirty businesses it's just hard to kind of feel on tops of everything i think you can i don't know i what i learned i think i learned this from you actually and then another person was like i was like oh i'm just gonna let this burn and often oftentimes it doesn't it yeah survives or get you usually they figure it out right if i don't respond to the text and you take four hours to respond instead of ten minutes usually it's like oh actually i figured this out or you train people that you don't respond quickly unless it's an emergency and they go figure it but if you jump in and you solve their problem all the time they're just gonna keep asking you yeah and i i kinda came to the conclusion of like i'm just gonna let a die and then it because goes back to that thing of like you know tim ferris or any of these people who talk about these hacks the hacks are real but what's what's what's also real is human nature is to be miserable right so like you know you know old people who are like rich retired and they're angry about their neighbors or their grass or their vacation got canceled or whatever the silly thing is and you're looking at it you're like dude do you have a nice life relax enjoy yourself i think humans just always need something to be upset about so for me it's like you know i've got i've got i'm so happy with where i'm at and i i love all my businesses but i managed to still make myself miserable i would change it too we don't need something to be unhappy about but we need a war i need a fight i they're i i totally like it it's good for me to have a fight i love having an enemy but then thing i double sword i'm in the same way my my business partner always says you need enemy i i get so fired up i put that or like being wartime ceo but then like k yesterday i did this viral tweet i got the biggest tweet ever right so yeah people didn't reach thirty thousand likes i haven't checked the number of people i think it's it was like it was like tens of thousands or something of re tweets right one of big pieces so so sean's club house thing reached i think six million people but your thing looked like it was even bigger where do i look just twitter analytics yeah on your phone there's this thing called insights so you go to the tweet and then underneath the like button like the heart button you see something that says view insights so i got seven point two million impressions wow and total engagement of one million one point one that is seven point two million is so good yeah so this crazy so anyway so i did that and you know it was like dopamine hits i was talking about a failure right it was like i hadn't really talked about it i publicly revealed that i lost ten million dollars on this business i started and it was just kinda like exercising a demon right i'm just sharing this fucking horrible story or whatever and the thing about twitter is that two to five percent of your audience will always mis misinterpreted what you say go you know oh hey technical technicalities or this isn't right or you're you're trying to come across this way and that's not true whatever it is a classic so how privileged of you totally oh how privileged you lost ten million dollars or whatever it is point and and i had it was it was hilarious i had so my the story was basically we started productivity software called flow i decided to bootstrap it like base camp and we had a big competitor asana asana was run by billionaire the c cofounder of facebook he raised a shit load of money and originally i was like oh no we've got a better product and then they just made their product better and they i would spend us on marketing and we we got killed right and so i do this and you know the c the c cofounder of asana who i really like and i thought i complimented him in the story started taking issue and saying you know in twenty we didn't even have a marketing budget in twenty twelve and all this show done was fighting with justin dustin was like fighting with me on twitter and i'm like really like you yeah you like i like you i'm complementing you you're like such a nice guy and and you said it really nicely and all this stuff and and so he's attacking me in the tweet you said dustin barry nicely said we're gonna crush you and he did and but i love him a lot that's what you said didn't really he didn't even say i'm gonna crush you it's more like hey here's all the challenges you guys are gonna have you should really join us and we'll do this together right this is very collaborative message because i think they wanted to buy us but and then you know my other like a hero of mine david hunter mayer hanson who like i've worship shipped forever in terms of like their business they've built he wrote this whole post about how i'm proven venture and i'm you know miss mis allocating you know success to all this stuff and he totally twisted what i was saying and so it's like this downside of twitter and being public of like starting a fight and stirring the pot and sharing which with your buddy yeah and i'm friends of them we're texting about it it's fine but it goes back to like the negative emotions of sharing and being out there and having you know having enemies comes with shitty emotions right debating this right now like is it worth over the last two years like i love coming on here and stuff but is it worth having a public profile right is it is it worth the negative emotions i think that that this is like a rich person's problem it's kinda not like not rich of whatever you want like whatever you're trying to get whatever you're trying to achieve you get it and you're like man that's not as good as i thought and i've experienced this as as well so if you've noticed like online i actually tried to be far more low key than ever before because i find the pressure and i find the attention to actually be a net negative although that's like bullshit it's like that's a shitty thing to say because it's not really in that negative because i'm happy with the outcome and i wouldn't trade it so it's not really in that negative but i completely agree i think that i'd rather be getting anonymously right now well this is the question is could you be known could you still be outspoken in audio and stuff but just have your photo nowhere so no one knows and not reveal too much personally or whatever because the the cool thing as next it i like lit up when you're like oh dude i i tweeted this out in fifty cool people showed up at this event right like that is the power that's by by not being public you actually aren't a you're not sharing your lessons and you're not helping the next generation of entrepreneurs and stuff but you're not connecting with new people and you're making all these friends as a result maybe you don't need new friends but that's so cool yeah so there's we have two options one we just have thicker skin and stop being such a wu about it which like is hard it's really hard or we build anonymously a little bit more and we're actually having what what's this the guy's biology the the crypto yeah he's gonna be on the podcast in a couple weeks i think right bring you and he his whole he's got this big prediction that that's gonna be the norm is that your coworkers are actually gonna be anonymous and i wanna i wanted to talk about that because i kind of agreed i think there's a world where that could happen it's fascinating to think about like if you think about like if you had a work persona and you're just like you know sam x and then your sam part in your personal life and sam x has a reputation and you talk about what you're doing and stuff that's super mean there's that guy the samurai whatever the fuck the guy i'm a big fan financial samurai mh like heck guy no one knows who he is right or what's the guy's name mister money mustache nobody knows who he was until that new york times profile right that's the ultimate totally and and you and i both probably you you and i were this and you and you probably have a lot more we have friends who we feel like they're incredibly close friends and you've not only never met them in real life you've actually never heard their voice or seen their face totally have a ton of friends like that who i only communicate with them and i know what their profile picture is and i could consider it them to be great friends but even even liquid jack smith right it's like his username is jack smith but his photo is just saying random cartoon thing and it's it's fake and that is smart right like dude there's i was texting with someone last night and he was saying there's a twitter user i think he has like two hundred thousand followers or whatever the guy gets death threats right and i look at this twitter and i'm like this isn't like this is pretty inn i he's not like some controversy i mean i can't say but not super controversial or anything like that and the guy gets death threats and you just go like wow like if that's what you're dealing with like i remember i had this guy six years ago a sc guy in my city thought that because we worked with apple we had the apple watt this before the apple watch came out he thought we had the apple watch plans and he showed up in our office in like a superman manic state quiver and like demanding with his like fist beard that we give him the apple watch stuff right and we're able to cool them down and get them out or whatever i have like some sc people in my family so knew how to deal with it but you think about like that's only gonna happen more as you have a bigger and bigger presence and that kind stuff's a little freaky right you don't wanna get like john lennon i i call it love knife you know they love you so much they're gonna stab you totally and it is fearful i mean i've not had death threats but like there's been times where sarah and i have been on vacation and we'll take the picture of a take a picture of our guest how or the vacation home and we'll cover the address but still but i'll get like five or ten packages from people saying like we just found the house on street view and they'll like send way they'll send stuff yeah it happens all the time so i'm not that's creepy he asked me not to take pictures of of the house even if we cover the address dude that's super creepy and i'm a nobody you guys you and shaun have two x as many followers i mean and so yeah it's weird it's so it's so interesting that's so it's it's it's a and it it's such a first world problem right oh no i've got this big audience all these people listening to me or whatever but but yeah double edged sword yeah you know people always say that's a good problem to have that's a first world problem and my reply is was like yeah you're you're right it's still a fucking problem though totally it's very real and you know i was saying i was on the phone with someone the other day and you know he he was saying oh yeah you know i wanna be a billionaire and i was going well think about being a billionaire you know you think about the pressure of having billions of dollars and knowing like you can okay so like here's an example it's like i read bill gates new book about climate change right and i'm going oh it's okay i don't have enough money to really do anything in this right i don't feel any personal responsibility let's let the crazy billionaire bill gates or whatever deal with this and if i was a billionaire i'd be going oh shit you know i need to like call bill and i need to help and i this is my problem now and if there's a shooting you know in town in town i need to fund the police to make it better to solve these problems like there's a lot of pressure that comes along with large amounts of money did you see and so it's it's interesting to think about who's what's the right amount of money right and i i the people i admire the most are often the people who have you know enough money in the bank that they can do whatever they want but not so much money that they can turn into wack or stress themselves out what's that threshold of they can do whatever they want like what does that mean i think really it's like five in my city it's like maybe like five to twenty million bucks is enough to you know that's live a great great great life right you could be do a lot less but i i can i i can pretty confidently say that i think twenty is the threshold that you could live a great life in pretty much any city for the rest of your life with twenty yeah i think i would say that now i mean that's like you could get like a crazy apartment in new york live like a king and you're you're good forever forever but but i mean in with the like two million dollars even three million dollars you can live somewhere in the world like amazingly well yeah well andrew thank you we'll do it again next week and we'll get our research to do stuff are you do you give this out of ten nine out of time oh i'll take that that's good would not have expected that