#165 with Jack Butcher - Selling a $76m NFT, How to Research Wealthy People & How BitClout Went Viral

do you see a jacket it's crazy i thought he meant you selling one out n t for like a hundred grand i didn't or however much you sold that like what's the difference between j on an f two thing i didn't see that you have one for seventy six million dollars just put it up this morning do you think that's the look at my experience i love it yeah i feel like i could rule world i know i could be what i want to put at all in in like a days off on a goal less travel never i have just kind of an update on my bit cloud thing that i wanted to talk about but we can do like we can it later if we want it doesn't have to be at the beginning what i would rather you you you lead it and unless you wanna talk about jack butcher like we have a kind of like this is all related and crazy shame yeah there's like the world is so weird right now and amongst our friends i think that there's probably a a tier or two above but we are in such an odd tier where we have very close friends or you and me a little bit but less have made a fair amount of money on all of this new stuff happened yeah it's kind of crazy so i'll say if you're tired of us talking about bitcoin and n t's and all the crypto stuff there's probably not it'll probably skip ahead to the part where we're gonna talk about you know dictionary dot com later so so so i would say we're gonna go we're gonna show you some range today we're gonna talk about a website that's like twenty five years old and then we're gonna talk about you know a website that's like twenty five minutes old which is bit cloud so now let's talk about jack first okay so we have a friend jack butcher who is he's behind this account that's kind of very popular on twitter called visualize value he himself was kind of like a designer background so very like kind of artistic guy and by the way every every time i say autistic i think i'm about to say autistic and so i have to like you know catch myself each time make sure i didn't call him on autistic so he could be that who knows well actually the the thing about jack is he's very very very low key nicest guy in the world and i met i met jack a year ago a year ago i contacted him and asked him to do this design stuff and then he was just up and coming right and sarah and i my wife became friends with jack and his wife and we they spent thanksgiving with us down here in austin were they just had a baby and where we've been right friends with them talking all that stuff and he did story is that he used to live in new york city and and his wife he's british he became here ten years ago they shared a one bedroom sorry a studio apartment that was four hundred square feet and he was they were nothing i mean they were they there were they tried to start out agency business it didn't go so well and they were on their last dollar and this is only like eighteen months ago right okay so so he he kinda pivot to basically saying okay within the agency it's work that i do the part that i like and i'm good at and other people don't seem to like what they really want are these like pitch decks i'm making i'm really good at making these slides where it's just a rectangle and i communicated some information on it and so that's where the visualize value brand came from was he's just putting out like a little you know like an image a rectangle that would take concept and like bring it to life visually and so he started off getting popular by just taking a bunch of naval balls popular tweets you know sayings is a little kinda of one liners and he would create a a graphic out of it and he has this one graphic style if you're on put twitter you've seen it it's black and white it's always a black background with white text on top and a little kind of like very simplistic minimalistic like graph or chart or drawing on top of it okay so that's visualize value so he does like the normal creator thing he gets a little bit of an audience his twitter grows to a hundred thousand people he creates a course he creates kinda like a paid community for people who wanna learn this thing and he's doing well for himself right and that's where we met well and he he he's it does he does north of a million dollars a year in revenue and the only expenses are like i mean small software stuff and then him and his wife exactly and so he's doing he's doing very well for himself right but it's all relative she's doing much better now so what happened this craze around n t's came out and if you don't know what n nxt is just think of it like digital aren't that people buy and crypto people people really like it because it's virtual art in the same way that crypto sort of like a virtual money or a digital money so anyways jack starts doing n t's so jack basically takes his same art that he's posting on twitter for free and he's like no now you can own this piece of art now you can own this post that i'm putting up and so he just dabble you know just as an experiment i don't know what the first one sold for i think it was like one ether right one when he used two or three thousand dollars it was like yeah it was just close to two grand and it was like one point five ether or something like that it was like two or three thousand bucks still pretty sweet right like this is just a you know dot p g file that he otherwise uploads to twitter for free and now somebody wanted to own the dot p g file because they're fans are his and this meant to something to them and they had a bunch of crypto gains that they could reinvest their check cheese money right and so okay so now he's like stepping it up so we'll fast forward he does some more n entities he really releases another n this one gets bid up and gets bought for thirty three eth which is i think something like one is thirty three thirty three east times like seventy grand like seventy grand so he sells one of his images for seventy grand okay i called him right when i saw that i go jack is this real to someone he goes yeah it's crazy mate that's all i said right exactly because he's not like he's not like a scheme in any way i think he is smart and he he's interesting he likes to dabble but like he wasn't he's not trying to pull a quick one he's like putting his art out there and people are buying it and so i actually messaged the buyer and i go why heck you buy this thing if some random you know random username he just goes off you know i love jack and i think this gonna appreciate value and i you know i just really love this like i just love the i love the art and i was like wow okay fantastic so that's the guy bought it for seventy grand so then he did something even crazier which i'm talking about the packs do you know the packs yeah so to to explain that one so the the part of the story is the the craze there's two crazy parts of the story the most recent thing that happened which we'll talk but the first crazy thing is he was like you know what if i did like people love jack he's got a cult bali probably more than sean people love sean they used to love me that they sean now they love jumping they love jack and what he did was he created a website where you are buying a pack he had twelve packs all it said was pack one pack two pack three it looked like a imagine like a baseball car but with a jack butcher cover on it and it was just black and it said visualize value pack one right and you would buy these packs having no idea what the n art was in it right he had twelve of them and people were bidding on them and each one sold for around ten to fifteen thousand dollars which is i thought amazing right till we get to the final part of the story or at least supposed recent part of the story exactly so he's so he gets to to today i log on to twitter as i do first thing in the morning what's going on in the world today holy shit jack butcher has listed a new piece of art for seventy six million dollars something like that only the the exact number seventy two seventy six million he basically and it's called fame and what he did was the most the highest priced n t thus far in the history of mankind was people the the artist people who's like jack but even more popular so people had done a a a few drops those drops were like kind of in the one to five million range ish and then the most popular and n of all time was sold for sixty nine million dollars recently and like there's some rumors that like that was sort of a manufactured sale like somebody came in and did it just to like they're gonna like i don't know these are rumors but rumors were that they kinda made it a public publicity city stunt so anyways jack basically says cool this is a n nfc called fame and what fame is it it will be the number one priced piece of artwork in a digital artwork in the world right so he prices it above the people drop i wasn't i wasn't referring to this i was referring to the what he did last i didn't even see this this is crazy today last last week what he did was he he wrote and he did an nxt and it says here's the difference between that a a jpeg and an n nxt and it just had a verified it it he he basically made a tweet and then he sold that tweet for like a hundred and fifty thousand dollars right which i thought was crazy this is way crazier yeah because it's it's crazier because it might work exactly so okay so then let's let's walk through this if you're jet why i'll tell you why do this and why might actually work why do this well if if if nothing else this is just a great way to drive attention press and and just do something that's bold right so pricing you know pricing a piece of your artwork for seventy seven million dollars it doesn't even mean if it doesn't even matter if somebody buys it just pricing it for seventy seven million dollars is is already gonna put you on the map the second thing is this might be you know let's say you take the three outcomes somebody actually buys it for seventy seven million dollars right there's been crypto punk now the the the number one crypto punk sold for a brady you look this up how much of that crypto the top crypto punk sell for i think it was like seven seven million dollars something like that people sold for sixty nine million so there is a chance there is a maybe five percent two percent chance that this thing actually sells for seventy seven million dollars which would be incredible second thing this might be a shoe for the stars you land on the moon situation yeah the crypto punk sold for seven and a half million and the guy who bought it by the way this kinda cool i don't know how you pronounce this but the person who bought it his handle is per per peruvian or p something i don't know what it is i'm not in the art world but that's the same that's an homage basically that's the same name of the guy who stole the mona lisa which is what helped catapult the mona lisa to fame was when it was stolen and that was like part of the part of what made the mona lisa even more remarkable and more valuable and now most valuable piece of artwork work in the world and so so okay so the way great usage of the word o homage yeah thank you we're trying to class it up for here so alright so so he might not sell it for seventy seven million but even if it's a sells for one point seven million that's one point seven million dollars that he just you know manufactured through his own creativity and you know and probably i would bet you like four days of effort i got i have chills looking at this tweet that he put out the reason why this is so crazy is it might work in might one might be crazy enough to do this right he basically has a no loss situation and because jack's brand is because he is authentic he is not kind of like a you know quick flash in the pan trying to make a quick quick dollar like he's literally almost like you it's more of an artist really than he is like anything else and so he's been doing this for a while he's been creating daily content he's been building up a following and so just like people did that people did people did a new piece of art every day for ten years and so it's like you know he's an overnight success ten years in the making and i think jack's very similar so i see jack having a no loose situation and this is n nxt are a thing that basically fits his skill set and so like there's a lot of reasons people kinda shit on n entities right now one is that it's over valued it's a bubble what do you really own look i can just screenshot at boom i own the thing too you know like there's a bunch of ways you can make fun of this but one of the good things that came out of this is that you know in most of these these like kind of hype cycles it's the suits on wall street that get rich this time at least it's starving artists that get rich and so you know at at at the at the very worst even if a whole thing comes crashing now at least a few artists got paid and you know who can be really too mad at that i i i can't so i think this is kind of like an amazing thing jack's doing just bog my mind should we ask him to come on you wanna check to come yeah should be friend with one are you friends with him yeah alright great that close to you guys but yeah we're we're close you should mess we should see he see he hops on today just to be like you're free to come talk about that amazing thing for for five minutes let's see he hops on at the end of this alright i just texted them alright we'll we'll we'll come back we'll come back to that fucking crazy i if yeah it's i don't know have trouble talking about it would it be weird going to a different topic or do wanna stay on n t's and stuff like that we can do whatever you once like is continuing everything less is everything less exciting well i think it's gonna go two ways it's gonna be if i'm listening to this and i'm most people who are listening to this are kind of like not as knee deep into this world as we are and and we're still like just kind of dabbling and so the average person is probably not you know familiar with all these things definitely not taking action and definitely not get getting rich all alcohol all these so there's i think it's gonna be kinda polarizing some people are gonna think oh wow this is really cool i should go check this out and learn more about this some people argue this is so stupid i think this is all just like you know a giant carnival game that and has some kind of po scheme that i don't want to hear more about so i don't know probably let me move let's do a different one let's do a different one and we'll always spend about ten minutes on it and then we're probably gonna come back to this alright i asked you wanna to come back to this i wanna come back to big cloud i wanna talk come back to angel investor okay okay but someone i i tuned it out that i'm gonna start a youtube channel and someone said you stuck about your research process and that's really hard thing to talk about but i wanna bring up one one topic of my research process as well as one interesting thing that i found what i like to do is i like to find out who is find different parts of real estate or different real estate so i go to the real deal dot com and there's this one segment called yolanda says it's like this fake author in you yolanda he goes i heard a rumor that this person's buying a house the owner is this this and this yolanda hears that they're gonna offer this much money i have no idea yolanda is a fake person right but it's just like a blog a blog to go website gossip blog yeah her real estate mostly in new york and la though so they're kind of famous famous e purse people doing it and what i love to do is find out who bought who's buying the real estate and then i go and research them and the reason why is one of the best ways to figure out if someone's actually wealthy or not is by the real estate holding that they own that's one of the few things that it's really hard to fake i mean you could fake it but if someone has bought a twenty million dollar home but likelihood that they're worth a hundred million dollar plus is incredibly hot you know it's hard to like bullshit that right and so real estate holdings is one of the best way to get an indicator of someone's wealth or it's a great way not the best way but it's a great way and i found one that interested me a ton this guy's name was brian car and bought a house in malibu in two thousand nineteen for twenty million dollars i hadn't heard brian i know a lot of internet entrepreneurs i hadn't heard of them so i researched them and this is the guy who started dictionary dot com kind of a crazy thing when you think about it because who really thinks of dictionary dictionary dot com so in the nineteen nineties this guy started the in nineteen ninety five he started a business called lexi publishing and lexi publishing owed the the so dot com and dictionary dot com and he bootstrap it and he grew it and he sold it in two thousand and five to ia c for a hundred million dollars and then two years ago ia c sold dictionary dot com to dan gilbert you know dan gilbert quicken loans yep he sold dictionary dot com for or they sold dictionary dot com for a hundred million dollars so they they didn't do a very good job with it but dictionary dot com gets around forty dictionary dot com at source dot com gets around forty million unique a month and does about twenty million in revenue and they have barely any employees i i believe dozens of employees it's incredibly fascinating because this by the way i call you how do they make money just add adsense or is there something else just ads okay all it is is ads and it's an incredibly interesting company because it's one of the things that i call for it you let's call it i call it a forgotten property like just things that you forget that even exists but just quietly make money and are quite repeatable they're not like necessarily sexy it's like the sweaty startup of internet yeah yeah you know if if twenty startup up means a landscaping business this is kinda like that for the internet sure and but they've done a really good job of staying relevant so they do a word of the day which people like particularly love like it's a huge email list of we just get the word of the day they also do a word of a year word of the word of the year so when donald trump was president in twenty sixteen i think the word of the year was xenophobic because a lot of people were searching with xenophobic means right this past year twenty twenty it was pandemic and it was all it's almost like a recap of gear right and it's actually kind of culturally relevant and also what they do is when someone like kendall gender or kylie gender or whatever the woman is who is both self made they they they'll do funny stuff like they'll tweet the definitely they'll re tweet a tweet of her calling yourself self self made and they'll they'll say actually the definition of self self made is success una or something like that like they like they're pretty snarky i find this to be incredibly interesting because it's something i didn't think about and that's what minute critical cool yeah you went from a hundred to zero real quick there at the end of yeah okay she we actually had a friend who was looking at buying dictionary dot com you know about this no we had a friend that was looking at buying dictionary dot com and merging it with another business can't remember the name of it now urban dictionary dot com is another big one that one gets about forty or fifty million unique a month and owns that wait just a guy a guy san francisco aaron pe so there's a similar i know you wrote another one on here that that's similar to me which is chest dot com and so yeah i don't know as much about it as you do so fill in the gaps but i was looking at it i was like man chest dot com is a great domain chess is this kind of like very quiet you know just like super sticky you know just relevant it's a classic game right it's just been relevant for so long and then with queen's ga it got like way more popular recently they this is all these crazy charts spiking the trends of people searching for chess chess boards check how to get good at chess like what is queen's ga how do you do a queen's ga all those things and so dot com it had they have two hundred employees i bet you it's worth if you told me the i heard a rumor they're thinking about selling and i would bet it would be worth a quarter of a billion dollars exactly that's that's what i was gonna say they have a huge amount of traffic what's their traffic monthly it's i don't i'll look it up but they have around fifty million registered users right and they're not just like it's not fly by traffic like dictionary dot com the source dot com they're gonna have a lot more traffic but it's gonna be fly by two hundred two hundred million monthly unique according to similar web most of which is direct incredible right and so two hundred they make money waive more though you know how they make money no i what i can guess tell if i'm right so i i would guess that basically they sell some kind of you know course tutorial a way to get better at chest do they do that yeah and so you can meet with coaches and you could pay coaches money right can they do they also have some kind of like premium pro membership where you get matched with better people and your stats get saved and something like that yep yep okay so so dead simple business model around a classic game that nobody owns the ip too right it's not like saying monopoly well you can't do monopoly somebody owns monopoly hey you know i don't know who has bro or whoever owns monopoly you you can do it with chess and this is one of the reason why we talked about religion as a really interesting fun you know fundamental or like base layer for any business because nobody owns religion but it's highly recognized brand with super high affinity so i love businesses that are you know like pray the app that's you know basically calm for for christianity or there's versions of this for the muslim religion and so i love religion as one of the primary substrates because you have a billion people who know about it but nobody owns the ips so you can use the ip and and so what what what was our friend gonna do who are who what who our friend is so i don't remember exactly and i don't know how much we can really talk about it but they were gonna basically buy two properties at the same time dictionary dot com and one other one and because they're were like look dictionary dot com gets a ton of traffic but it's not so sticky of a service it doesn't really have a great monetization potential it's just display just display ads and then this other thing is a great business model and has you know has great stickiness and maybe we merged the two like let's just okay here's a hypothetical i don't know if this is exactly what they said but if you're grammar would you pay for would you go buy dictionary dot com to source right because you're gonna go get fifty sixty million people coming to look up words and find out what words mean and you could say hey by the way if you you know if you ever feel like you wanna sharpen it up with this maybe you should it's ver which is a great way to write you know chew better vocab right right and perfect grammar and become a better writer right like they have a business model attached to it that that that makes sense and so i wonder if there were other things like that maybe i would if i was gram i would maybe by dick dictionary dot com i just thought it was interesting because you don't really think about this another one that been i'm gonna do research on is easy gif dot com do you know that i know that one yes i actually so i have a slack channel called buyout in my slack and i just have my slack with ben and we have a a slack buyout which is basically company websites that i think would be awesome to buy easy ji was the first one i ever put in that that channel because i was like oh my god i love this i love this simple tool think it's a ton of traffic it's zero to no maintenance and and it it makes money you know remove dot bg is another one like that where you can just remove the background of a photo and then you pay for credits so it's like you don't need to know photoshop to remove the background of a photo and i just think that's genius so easy gif dot com it's the letters e the letters z and then gif gi i f dot com eight million unique a month you go there and you upload a video and it turns it into a gif i was doing risk john it looks like the guy it looks like it's only a small team a couple of people made in latvia lots yeah so overseas here's if i'm dictionary dot com one thing that they should do is they should take a page out of the new york times playbook so i don't know if you've you probably have because you're in the you know you're in media you care about the stuff but most people aren't aware of how new york times really makes money what it what its business looks like today and a pretty large part of their business i i haven't done the research since is off top my head but very low know tens of millions of dollars a year i believe comes from their games division particularly one game cross and so i play this game every single day the new york times mini cross word it is literally a two minute game that like kinda of stimulates the brain and it's fun to do it requires like no kinda hand eye coordination type of thing and it's not you can't get super addicted to it because it's like one a day so mini cross word is like they took the cross which is a big part of the papers okay now the paper's is all digital how do we make a digital version of the cross word and then they made it mini so that it's actually like simpler for the average person to do you can like pretty much always win and super fun game and so the i don't know what the do you have the revenue numbers of of cross border and the game time it so keep on i'm going i'm not so if i'm dictionary dot com that's you know whoever is the ceo of dictionary dot com hey free idea that i think would generate probably eight to ten million dollars a year you should come out with your take all these popular games like word scramble or mini cross word or you know all these different little word word puzzle games that are very popular in the app store and they have trouble with distribution good games trouble with distribution all you need to do is res skin that as the dictionary dot com game and put it as a pop up for people coming to the site to hey download this fun game and you know even if you're converting you know half a percent of your traffic to this thing you're gonna end up driving a lot of revenue because this game is is these games work and all they need is distribution and maybe people who come to dictionary dot com or they subscribe to the word of the day email like i think they would like to play these little word games are very popular if my mom plays these little words scramble games okay so some information on new new york times is a publicly traded companies so this is why i'm getting some of the numbers but i don't always break out the revenue by sake i'm doing a little bit of estimation but i would bet i'm right within ten to twenty percent so two thousand twenty new york times said they had six hundred thousand people paying for the cross puzzle only just cross puzzle that was in twelve of twenty thousand twenty was a huge year for subscription subscription revenue actually month yeah everything doubled but let's just round that up to eight hundred thousand for six hundred thousand so eight hundred thousand i believe it costs six dollars and ninety five cents a month for a cross puzzle but so let's run that up to seven dollars so seven dollars times eight hundred thousand we're looking at five point six million dollars a month sixty million or sixty seven million dollars a year in subscription revenue only from cross puzzle right that's it that's just the cross with puzzle division right fucking crazy right right exactly and and they're they're like i read an article recently where the guy was like you know someone from the new york was like yeah we're quad down on games games exploded during covid cross is already an amazing franchise for us the next they have another game i forgot what it is but they have like you know a few staple games that are like these classics and they're like you we're we're actually a games company they the guys literally said that you guys goes you know we we don't just you know just put the game the same exact game on a phone we like kind of reinvent it so that it's like even more fun on your phone we try to like put a twist on the game we're not just gonna come out with you know the classic you know like for example twenty forty eight if you ever play that little numbers game where you slide the tiles and it like you know it adds up twenty forty eight the game's is awesome and so new york times could come out with a version of twenty forty eight which is like you know their own twist on the game so i found that to be pretty interesting and that's what i would do if i was dictionary dot com so in this segment the take should be learn about real estate and read the real deal and google all the entrepreneurs and the reason why you do that is you're gonna discover stuff like dictionary the source dot com and you're eventually gonna learn about profit puzzles and the reason why this is important what we are discussing is just interesting stuff but the reason why this is all important is we are showing that you can make a killing a fucking killing hundreds of millions of dollars to the point where you're buying twenty million dollar home on the beach front of malibu more than most celebrities will ever be able to afford and you're doing it by building something that you're just like it starts as like a silly thing that you never would have thought could actually become this big and when you see this stuff it actually inspires you and or at least it inspires me knowing that like i could turn something silly into something profitable and that's a badass that is awesome just knowing that that's possible it is cool it's kinda like why does everyone why did five people break the four minute mile in the same year when previously no one had done it is because when you see what's possible and it it it pushes the boundary and it and it shows you what you can do that's neat to me so we should also say so two things that that i took away from that you are really good at figuring out like you sniff out these little interesting stories because you just think who's that guy how you drive that car much is that car yeah how'd did you get that money right and actually there's a famous tiktok channel that just does only this i don't know if you take that but he goes up to people getting out of like lamborghini or like you know like just killer cars and just be like hey man what do you do for a living and the guy like what and he just yeah well what do you do for a living just i'm curious you guys like i'm in real estate real estate cool man and he's leaves right this is that's it yeah kinda bothers him for a second and the you know the person will be like you know i'm a cannabis entrepreneur i'm a you i'm a hedge fund guy i i'm a youtuber i'm a whatever right well the joke of that channel is the people say one of two things the women say i'm a wife yeah and they like are joking and then they also or they'll say i sell drugs right right exactly and then they're like zoom away and so so i love that channel at first i think that's just like a really simple fun idea for tiktok channel and then but but there is some like kinda of merit to that and it's really helped me in life which is basically anytime you see somebody who's got a interesting lifestyle i like to figure out two things one is is your whole day like this what's your day like what do you do how do you do that and i like to see how people architect their life right like and that sort of like it's like like you said about the four minute mile opens your mind to what's possible so recently i got this like private chef person who's like making meals for me they don't they don't come to my house they don't make food in my house but it's like a delivery service meal prep service but let's call it a private chef right because it's not door it's somebody who's giving me a menu we're gonna be that yeah you're doing the same because i'm doing it if you try to fit you're trying to do this for the same reason wanna to eat healthier and hey if you could afford it that's a convenient way to do it right we you know you got the the p word privilege to be able to do it and so the the reason i think that's even possible or i realized that was because the investor in my last company he had a private chef that was like a former michelin and star chef at a restaurant guy el amazing chef who was like would be at this house even would make you know lunch and dinner for them every single night and i was like whoa i didn't even realize people have that and it it's not that oh you know i want that but it's i didn't even realize that's a possibility of a lifestyle that you could have it is an upgraded part of your life and so there's all these little examples i've i've had in my life of like like i have a cousin who has like a virtual assistant in the philippines and i ask them you how how do you do what do with that how do you set it up how do you find the right person right just get real curious about different people's lifestyles and how they architect how they design their life and you kind of you could pick and choose from there what works for you what you want out of your life the second thing is why did the guy behind dictionary dot com like make it work right because it's like kind of a simple idea well he was early to a platform right so to get the domain dictionary dot com you couldn't do that today but you could do it with the web was early and not everybody believed which is a perfect segue back to bit cloud new platforms by the way speaking at big bit cloud i texted jack over you're talking he's gonna be joining any second now oh perfect so we brought this up on the last podcast because ryan bi came on a friend of ours came on and was like dude i haven't had this much fun on a product since like the early days of facebook i'm obsessed with this thing and he was asking us like are you gonna use it are you gonna claim your account so if you miss that episode let me just give you the like ten seconds of what this is imagine you know if if like robinhood and twitter had a baby so it's basically a a stock market for people so you go on the app bit cloud dot com and you just see all these people and you can buy instead of just following them or just liking their content you can actually buy into their stock essentially you could buy their creator coins and so you could buy their coins and every time you buy the price goes up and every time you sell the price goes down and so it's kinda like a stock market for people's reputation and and so when we did the pod my my my coin was about a fifteen hundred dollars at the time while we were recording it and ryan it was like my fourth biggest holder he had bought up a bunch and he was like are you gonna use this thing or not i said sure i'll give it a try and i'll see what what happens of course dude yeah you know like there's guys who take like my my friend jack takes every vitamin if you're like hey i have this five minute boom don't take it right like he takes every vitamin in or he takes every type of supplement you could ever you are like that with bitcoin or any type of like this isn't bad but like schemes so it's like hey there's a big called the big club okay hang on yep i just uploaded hundreds of thousands of hundreds of thousands on dude what i'm in that is you you you try everything i learned i learned from it's all the best well i don't think it's all the best but i do at the beginning you know at the beginning it makes sense to be optimistic when everybody else is you know pessimistic or skeptical you're default too this is the greatest thing i've ever seen that's your people no no my default is i'm game to try it and then if it starts to have some merit i'm like okay you know what's really cool about this x y and z even if ab t know how people perceive it i had people messaged me after our thing saying like why the hell is sean pumping in this big clan thing it's a po scheme and i was like i know we like it that's just writes a opinion you likes it they were mad at they were mad at b because we were promoting us and i was like i don't know so let me explain so we have two friends so you have you one of your best buddies is jack smith and jack he came on the we did an episode with him back when this was an interview show and i asked him i said well how did you create this bang thing that now sold for i know seven hundred fifty million dollars or something like that and the root of his thing was i try every platform early as soon if something comes out i wanna try and in fact yes if you go on big cloud jack owns two cents of my my coin he was there before me of course he was right on product and he became the number one power user as soon as product ton came out he used it every single day with n entities and collectible he's like the number one power user on all these different platforms for digital for for for fractional ownership and collectible on rally road he's the number one buyer exactly and and so that's what jack does and and if it's not that all of these will work it's that you only need one to work for it to pay off big right if you were early in twitter you know even just as a user you would have a big following if you were early as an investor in any of these companies is if they hit it gets very big so that was the first kind of i noticed that from jack then i saw then i was talking to my friend fur he's the cto and and was c cofounder of my previous company probably the best kinda technology guy i know and fe is always dabbling so he was the one telling me about bitcoin and ethereum before anybody else before and i didn't listen to him i didn't buy and he was just buying like he put like five grand into ethereum and the ico or something like that you know like and so you know the ico of ethereum was seventeen cents and now it sells and now every ether is seventeen hundred dollars right so you could see the type of appreciation you get when one of these hits and he's had you know for everyone that won ether that hits big like that he has you know maybe fifty or a hundred things that don't fully pan out like for example he's huge on vr r he bought me an oc and was like dude let's play vr poker together let's try vr and like vr hasn't hit in a big way yet and he spent you know thousands of dollars on vr he spends you know hundreds of hours building in vr and so far that's yielded nothing but i asked him what's what's your deal with this is it because you like am i dumb i don't think vr is big you you seem to be all over it he goes no what i do is anytime there's an interesting technology i'm just curious about it and therefore i'm like in the first ten thousand people that really understand every new technology and he's like because of that one of those technologies is gonna be big so right now for example he's super into vertical farming and like hydro farming and he's just like all about indoor farming all about vertical farming and like so he he's we have this one hour a week called the cool shit hour i just sit back on zoom and he just kind of shows me the cool shit he's been trying out this week and this week was all about vertical farming and blew my mind i didn't know anything about it and he's telling me all the reasons it's awesome why is this just not an episode that we do it should it really should be because it's so good it's kind of my edge right now because he tells me about shit and then i go take action on it and like he's even earlier than me so he gets more upside but i'm still very early just by being buddies with this guy so anyway that's a long way of saying it in technology it pays to be optimistic it pays to be an early adopter if you're willing to look stupid sometimes by by putting some time or money into things that fail you you will net out way way ahead just by being early into a bunch of interesting things at the very least you learn but at the at the most one of these hits and then you gain a bunch of like you build a big network there or you make a bunch of money because you invested in it so anyways that's that's my overall philosophy i totally see the people who are like bit cloud is dumb this is a scam this is a sham this is you know this will never work hey i think there's merits to all those arguments but from my opinion i just thought this sounds interesting sounds very different than anything else that's out there i tried it and i immediately liked it so the first twenty four hours i was hooked by the second twenty four hours i had put a hundred thousand dollars into the platform you know don't tell my wife so right now my you you it's it's a that's a lot of money that's a lot dollar is it's a lot of money yep so let me tell you why it is a lot thing right now my thing is my market cap on here is is it goes one seventy two hundred thousand i sold some of my stuff and that guy wired or it sent me money on coin banks ten thousand dollars right i'm mike i think this is silly but like i told you this is silly and you're still gonna give me money okay fine i'll take it i sold some of mine yeah you sold some mirrors yours i have not sold any of mine and instead i actually invested money into the platform where bought a bunch of people's coins including yours and so so i own a bunch of coins where all these different people that i think might appreciate and so i would say there is still a i would say in the long run this working in the long run i think there's like a less than two percent chance this works in the long run if it does work my hundred thousand dollars is gonna be worth tens of millions of dollars but that's the that's the long run two percent case okay well i wouldn't put up a hundred grand for a two percent win because i actually have a second way to win in this case which is that i have now been an early adopter basically every crypto thing over the last i don't know sit five six years and some of them were dumb some them work whatever and what i've seen is that anytime a kind of new exciting disruptive idea comes out whether it's icos or n nxt or whatever pick a favorite acronym there's like a hype cycle that takes place there's the people who are there's a people who make it there's the people who buy in at the beginning and get get access and then there's like a bunch of crypto enthusiasts who are believers in the general like innovation space of crypto that then say oh cool this sounds fun i wanna go try it and that's happening right now with n entities like we talked about a friend jack who's selling a bunch of n n entities for you know hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars it's because they were crypto enthusiasts who say n entities are really cool i wanna invest in that my crypto enthusiasts are not many of them hate club yeah sure so many many of crypto if there's crypto enthusiasts is not one group of people it's broken up into like with quote called bitcoin maximal list they don't wanna talk about anything except for bitcoin don't wanna they they wanna invest a hundred percent at bitcoin then there's ethereum of people who are like all about ethereum then there's people who are just just trying to generally gamble across all the different like different crypto projects that exist i'm talking to you more about them the gambler because i i understand the gamble more money have you made more money off bitcoin than you have selling your company no that'd be cool if you did it would have been sweet i think in the long run i will but as of now no but you know if you project forward five years i would almost certainly my crypto holdings will be worth more than when i sold the company for when i got out of the sale do you think that what percentage of your net worth do you have a crypto so i i tweeted out that i was moving twenty five percent into of my net worth into and into bitcoin and that's just like not just liquid net worth just net worth i ended up getting about twenty percent in but the price kept rising as i was doing it so my my my overall my average buy price is about eleven thousand dollars per bitcoin but anyways my my my holdings now are like i don't know almost fifty percent of my net worth just because crypto has appreciated so i i didn't put in as much as i said i was going to it was a little bit less but it appreciated it so now it makes up more and i didn't sell i didn't like sell to rebalance let's put it that way that's crazy so anyway anyways the thing i wanna tell you about is so that's my general my my my let's let's play out three scenarios scenario one let's say with bit cloud this is a a scam i don't believe it's a scam given that they have backers and investors like and horror and sequoia cha coin you know coinbase based capital the wink v like basically like everybody who's legit in technology slash crypto space like these are tier one names that are invested in this thing i don't think it's a scam it's definitely not a scam okay the sense of that's it's like it's malicious people right so that's that that's like one one thing that does happen in the crypto world people take your money and they fucking run away right that is that has literally happened so so i don't think it's that and i'll bucket it in you know one of the big criticisms is you can't withdraw your money yeah you have a huge amount of value in there but you can't withdraw yet i would bucket that into the scam argument like if you think they'll never allow you to withdraw i think that's silly that that would be a scam bed after that podcast i kind of understood what the heck cloud was which is it's basically a social network where you can bet on the people who are gonna you know in their reputation and so as a as a as a participant you could say okay instead of just following sam if i think sam is awesome and sam is gonna only get more popular over time i can actually invest in sam which is a little bit different than like patreon or subs stack where it's like i'll pay you for your shit that's different that's like okay do i wanna buy this content or not and said this is i'm a believer in you and so like back to that thousand true fans concept it's like if i'm a believer in you i can invest in you and as more people realize that you're the shit your price will continue to go up and i will actually i'll go up with you am my my stock in you will appreciate so i can actually make money being a curator being somebody who who recognizes talent before others do who recognizes reputation that are on the rise i think that's really cool that's that's a new thing you couldn't do that before if if i was a early user of snapchat or of like twitter or facebook or whatever it was cool but like i didn't actually gain anything from it financially if i discovered jack you know you you said you met jack when jack had a kind smaller following you didn't gain financially from jack's following growing and so i think that's a new thing that that that's a really cool mechanic now on the other side let's say you're let's say you're the creator let's say you're jack you can basically go on and say cool you know what i'm like a little mini warren buffett i i wanna have my berkshire hathaway summit my my shareholder meeting so you can basically say cool my top twenty five coin holders i will meet with you personally you know in know in a zoom or in person somewhere and that's a privilege you get by being one of my top shareholders or i can say hey i'm gonna produce some premium content and instead of having to set up a whole different app like subs tag or patreon or or something else like you just say great if you own over ten of my coin you get this thing and so it gives people a way to not just buy the content but to be a long term holder of you and i think that's really cool too as a creator and so so your and your market cap right now is like six hundred thousand dollars did it i'll did did it get that high because you bought your own stuff or i've only bought net one coin of mine so how why are people buying you or how do they even hearing about everybody on the pod i think i think that was one thing but then otherwise there's just people hearing about big cloud because all whole bunch of people joined right like so even just in our little network right andrew wilkinson joined two days ago and you know he's a super legit person and he tweeted out today i woke at five in the morning think about big clouds and he's like know and it's not just all good things right he said like the design kinda sucks i kinda hate the name i wish it didn't feel so shady because the way they're doing this is in this but here's some things that like the mind virus has infected him where it's like wait this does open up pandora box of a whole bunch of new capabilities and things that you kinda kinda couldn't do before and definitely couldn't do in a platform that had any legs and this has legs about a hundred seventy million dollars has been deposited onto this most of that is from their institutional backers like injuries and h and sequoia and those are other guys but but but the rest has been you know maybe eight to ten million dollars has come in from from users who are buying into the platform the cto of hubspot der he's on there every everyday being him are chatting on there all the time because he's he's posting like you know he's a daily user of this thing because i think it's a cool new technology cool app and he's playing with it he bought he he bought my stuff exactly and so i've had a lot of fun basically speculating on people buying a bunch of people's coins and i think i think those people are awesome or undervalued so for example i'll give you i'll give you an example i saw this guy bit crowd and he was posting a bunch of analysis so he's like exploring the blockchain and he's he says look because this is built on the blockchain it's all public you know if i go to facebook i can't tell you how many daily active users facebook has they have to disclose that information for me to know it but with things built on the blockchain and you just see it and so so he this guy's is posting like look here's how many new people signed up today here's how many posts have been and so you can see like how much engagement this thing has or if it if it starts to fade you'll be able to see it fade so i bought this i bought a fuck ton of this guy's going about bought ten thousand dollars of this analyst coin because this guy was super low priced because nobody knows who the heck this guy is but i knew that if if there are people who are power users of the platform they're enthusiastic about big cloud they're gonna love all the information the twenty four seven news cycle about bit cloud they're gonna love this guy's analysis because it's not easy to do it's not easy to go on the blockchain and figure this stuff out so i thought oh if this guy's get if this guy's gonna put reports up every day he's gonna get popular and so already i've doubled my money on this guy just because i was able to like have a strategy have a a skilled gamble what what i what call it right same reason i love poker same reason i like investing in startups and the stock market is because there's definitely this like deep itch scratches of like trying to put in money and triple it and make more money combined with some skill there is a strategy to it it's not just a slot machine or you just pull the lever and you hope for the best so for for whatever reason for some combination of reasons this shit is so addictive to me and maybe this will fade i'm only three or four days in but man i've used the hell out of this thing in three or four days and i don't know what's gonna happen i've only doing it for three or four days but my life this is my location i found and that that's what i hear from you well you hear what you wanna to hear i didn't say that what i said was i've had an amazing three or four days and this might fade but i view it as a kind of a asymmetric bet if this if fails i lose one i you lose one times my money if this succeeds i'm gonna make more than ten times my money and so that's what think good bet for me speaking of betting on people jack we are talking about you earlier basically sean i didn't know so basically we gave your background we said that you and seal lived in a shitty apartment a little studio five four hundred fifty square foot studio or something like that in brooks tried to make it like slum dog millionaire area was like he's like you know they shared one ramen noodle eat andrea yeah jack was that right was it four hundred something square feet four fifty and bad neighborhood crown heights right yeah i mean it was that was alright and and basically started an agency it was only going okay not going back and then like over the last eighteen twenty four months you've just knocked it out the park yada yada yada i didn't realize until sean said it when he said do you see a jacket it's crazy i thought he meant you selling one out n t for like a hundred grand i didn't or however much you sold that like what's the difference between j you on f two thing i didn't see that you have one for seventy six million dollars just put it up this morning do you think that's gonna work look at about what's smile lot experience i love it okay so jack can you just tell us about the seventy seven million dollar one what's the thinking behind that and then just in general what's the n nfc experience been like it's kinda mind blowing yeah i think interestingly enough this text message that got me on this podcast is kind of evidence for the strategy behind the seventy seven million seventy seven million dollar n nxt which the thesis is it's rounded up from the highest bid on that bp color so that was sixty nine point three and obviously tracks to the price of ethereum but anybody who would been on this would be you know the owner of the most expensive in the world so you know part press play part commentary on the world of n t's part artistic statement i have very very very you know the the idea of that selling is obviously absolutely ludicrous but the fact that you can do something like that but without permission and make a statement like that i think is like that's that's the the intent behind the the piece itself and the n space like the last three pieces that i've been working on the last three pieces that i've launched i've been sort of a commentary on the world of n entities so the first one sam talked about was like what's the difference between a jpeg and an n nxt i put that image on twitter and got a great response someone commented said you should make this in n nxt let's say no more made an n nxt and captioned it and then the second one just finished today was like the comment on the idea of non fungi ability right so anybody can save this jpeg but what we're really talking about here is like this meme status game that's all these different incentives coming together to know some people are buying these because they love them some people are buying them in the same way that they're betting on a create a like a bit cloud the same thesis behind a bit cloud you buy this thing and you assume this person gonna keep creating for years and maybe they emerge at the top of the space and then you're investment increases in value i think there's a lot of parallels of what you're talking about with big cloud it's it visualize value sort of was almost a layer on top of the business i was operating so was making these graphics to you know create things that would get people's attention to then put something else in front of them be like hey here's this thing so like my background is marketing and advertising and that's how that worked right you make stuff to get people to look at other stuff but now there's like this convergence of you can get paid directly for the things you make which is completely different right pay i think you know patreon what do you think the odds are that someone's gonna buy i mean impossible say zero point zero zero i why know yeah you well what's happened since you since you put it at this so you're don't know are people bidding on it can you can you be below that ass now no so you have to enter that it's all or nothing yeah yeah okay can you see any of the activity of like traffic to it switch to it well that's the only place i would have there and what's your what's you're people would visit a few thousand i think is this like cost so far and i think it's like it's all sort as an inside joke as well right like you have to have the context of the people thing mario yep who sean and i saw you saw that tweet is he he added this layer of context to it which is like the reason you know it's very minimal in its execution but when you have that additional context i think it's like there's a light bulb moment that goes off so i thought the thing i respect is that it's all or nothing if you had done it where it's like oh well may not get seventy seven million but i'll take you know seventy seven thousand well then it's sort like okay he's just you know it doesn't have the same artistic balls that it takes to say no this is the if we're either breaking the record it's the most valuable piece of digital art in the world not and it's a commentary on the whole madness of the situation it's like we're either going all mad or we're laughing about how mad this works but that we're not doing anything in between me i'm not this is not a this is not some you know a quick sale here again another parallel bit cloud it either goes off or it just you know it just stays there forever as a memory right yeah as i i that's why i tweeted it i said this is either gonna be an amazing investment or amazing lesson learned for me and and and i mean that because i it i intentionally invested it an amount of money that would hurt for me to lose it like i would really have to like lick my wounds if i lost this amount of money it's it's not gonna just go down by like ten it's gonna go on by a hundred percent or it's gonna go by like ten thousand percent yeah and so you know either way i'm gonna learn something out of this whole process it is so polarized and clear and i had to write down why am i doing this what do i believe about this and what and part of the why i'm doing this wasn't just here's all the great reasons to do this it was like well you know i kinda sat on the sideline at this other thing that i was early on and i missed out on this big wave and a bunch of my friends made a bunch of money doing it and so i'm kinda waiting for the next one and like now that this one's here i'm kind of over over compensating for it so i was really honest with myself about what was what are the psychological drivers and and put put two things together one is one is that which is like here's the dark side of why i'm doing this meaning like here's the not so great reasons but true reasons that i feel motivated to do this right my own psychology put on a piece of paper the second thing is maybe this is you you guys have probably all heard this i i know jack you have for sure same you know the thing about the four levels of luck no i guess of the four levels of like i forgot heard mark andre shared this from somebody else and then neville shared it and that's how i i heard it but basically it's like there's there's dumb luck where you're just you're standing still and luck just hits you upside the head something really lucky you just have you get struck by lightning right that's just dumb luck you did nothing and something happened then there's like the second level which is you're moving around like crazy and you're doing a bunch of shit and in doing a bunch of shit you kick up a bunch of dust you move a bunch of things around and actually you have a higher percentage chance of colliding with luck because you were taking so much action right and so that's kind of like you know you know the luck favors the bold basically you took a bunch of action therefore more lucky than somebody who didn't then there's the third one which is luck favors the prepared mind which is you're moving but you're also looking and when you see something you recognized luck before others sought it and so i would say jack as a good example of this which is he had the artistic ability to create really compelling visuals but he also had the like business brain and like kind of tech savvy and was in the tech world enough to see n entities as this opportunity that he could marry his two things together and give it a try and so that's where you recognize luck for what it is and then the fourth one is reputation luck which is you have built up such a big reputation that luck finds you well that's where some and some great companies says sam we would love to have you on board because we've been reading your content for years you're such an amazing copywriter and we just think you could really help us out with that you know and so boom luck came to your doorstep and that's that's sort of the the analogy that neville gave or whatever was like someone finds a sunken treasure and they come to you because you're known as the world's best scuba diver so to me this is like look level three and maybe a little four but three in that look favors the prepared mind so what i realized when i i looked back at bitcoin and i said i was being told by smart friends back in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen that bitcoin is amazing and i first i took no action that cost you know the the price was i think seventy dollars at the time so i let it go from seventy to seven hundred and then i bought in at seven hundred and even then i bought in such a small amount that it wasn't gonna like change my life either way i wasn't gonna care if i lost i wasn't gonna be rich for one and i i went and i looked back and i said well why didn't i take more action at that time right let's let's do that the hindsight game and one thing i realized is that in order to i i i didn't bet in on it because i didn't have enough conviction i didn't have enough conviction because i didn't even understand what the heck it was so part of that i didn't take time to understand it but the second was bitcoin was one of those weird things that you had to have two totally different skill sets in order to appreciate the how great this thing is you had to be really technologically sound in your brain to even under even understand it and be able to go buy the thing or mind the thing it it took real tech savvy to do it at that that time the second thing was you had to really understand macroeconomic economics and very few people had that combination and the people who did have become billionaires and they've very wealthy people now but most people who had one or the other or neither they didn't they didn't benefit right so you need to you needed to understand that wow this solved the byzantine generals problem this is a computer science breakthrough and now we can have trust list systems without any central entity but you also needed to understand that hey the government prints all this money and has this inflationary effect and the reason that you know and actually this thing that we all take for granted the us dollar or currency has really only been around in it's current form for i don't know seventy ish shares and and you know before that we had gold and before that we had shells and money actually does evolve over time and maybe this is the new form of money and here's why it's a more sound money than these other things i'm familiar with right so very few people had that overlap i see the same thing happening with bit cloud which is on one hand you had to understand the financial incentives that this like the token economics or crypto economics that exists here what are all the incentives and why would this thing go up and when you if you understand the crypto economics the token incentives you're like holy shit this is so well designed this is a very high likelihood of going up if it going up a lot if it becomes a thing the other side is just understanding how social networks start and when i saw that oh this is like probably the most brilliant growth hack i've ever seen these people who whoever made this is very aggressive and very smart they're aggressive because they went and scraped twitter and they put all of our profiles on their website and said come by their coin with anyone's permission that took a level of aggression and sort of like willing to operate in the gray that most people wouldn't really have and then the smart thing was they said well how do we make this network really valuable well if we get really valuable people on it how do we get really valuable people on it well let's do this let's go to really legit investors so big name investors that adds credibility let's go get a hundred million dollars from them and then let's invest that hundred million dollars into the accounts of all the influential twitter people and so when i went to the website without ever having used the damn thing my account had fifty five thousand dollars sitting in it all i had to do was tweet it out and say hey i'm using big cloud come use it with me basically right and i had to tweet that to my hundred twenty thousand followers in order to claim this fifty thousand dollars that was sitting there this like kind of imaginary fifty thousand dollars i was sitting there and okay so that i was like that's gonna work a lot of influencers are gonna go see hundred thousand dollars sitting in their account and they say all i gotta do is tweet this thing out like done like sam do you think the thing's fucking soup but you did it anyways because you were like shit i got thirty five grand sitting in here i'll take that and jack out how much money do you have sitting in your thing about one fifty i think last time i looked at it so a hundred fifty thousand dollars maybe is sitting in your account and have you verified your account it no do you plan to i'm still i don't know man i'm getting text messages phone calls and being invited on podcast podcasts to talk about big clients so maybe i gotta do it yeah maybe you do and maybe you have a pretty big fucking incentive to do it which is that there's a hundred fifty grand sitting there just for just tweeting the thing out yeah and so then you so then you go like layers deep you say okay so they're gonna tweet it out they're gonna claim their money and then they have a big following so then their people are gonna say oh if jack says it i trust jack and jack is jack is using it then i should probably use this thing they go on and because there's no withdrawals right now all the prices just go up and so everybody's gonna get all these paper gains and then they're all gonna talk about how this is the greatest thing since sliced bread because they're just making all the money on here right like our friend ryan who came on was like dude i'm making a killing on this thing and then other people are gonna say oh shit my friends are making a killing on this thing i should go do that too i don't wanna miss the next bitcoin i already i already missed bitcoin now i'm gonna miss the next one and they're gonna get on and that's gonna drive the price even higher and so what i saw was that this thing was brilliantly designed from kind of like a game theory perspective now that's take let's table like the moral questions and like is this a ap po scheme like there's a whole bunch of other questions but i at the very minimum i thought wow this game is architect so that these numbers are gonna go up this is gonna have a hype cycle very likely chance at having a a hype cycle and if it has the hype cycle these things just like bitcoin bitcoin is only valuable because everybody believes in it now and the more people believe it the more valuable it gets the more certain its own success becomes the same thing is true for any network any social network too the more legit people believe in it and want it to succeed the more likely it is to succeed and so then there's actually a chance that this does become you know a new a new wave of social networks so anyways that's my whole sure i've i've known you for since maybe eight years now it was early on when i met you that you had some type of it factor that you were at least mild smart what what cloud at bitcoin has done for you has basically like brought out all of your confidence and all of your speech giving abilities now the whole high iq thing and if you're right thing tb but your ability to give convince people that it's also a very very high i congratulate you on your confidence and your ability to persuade people i think it's i think i think i think you finally have come out of your shell now alright the whole are you right thing well that's what we're we're gonna i keep saying the thing which is there's a very low chance that this six succeeds in the long run if it does you're gonna get paid super handsome very similar to big bitcoin back in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen and very similar to the hundreds of other crypto projects that had the same promise and didn't it pan out right so that's the thing with low odds usually they don't pan out when they do you can get paid handsome there's a middle ground here where if this goes through a hype cycle there is a good chance that even if it doesn't succeed in the long run in the short run there's a bunch of money to be made that is the degenerate gambler side of me and many people anybody who was in the in the games stop anybody who's you know going in trading a lot of people have funds speculating and trying to make money and they're not necessarily trying to be long term holders that's situation two it's situation three it just flops it goes to zero there there are all three scenarios on the table what i'm trying to say is the probability is i'm not saying this is likely or definitely gonna succeed what i'm saying is i find it super interesting from a product point of view how they made it and i think there's a good chance it goes through the hype cycle beyond that i don't know so jack what what what does this mean to you what what side are you on i'm just sort waiting for it to shake out i guess i think the first time it came across my feed was like the ultimate bear case like you know this is broken the the commandments of crypto therefore it should not go anywhere near it and my i'm my understanding of the like mechanics are pre mining and all of these like i wasn't paying attention to the ico cycle when it was happening years ago so i just felt pretty you know un qualified to make a bet on it and i think to your point sean there's like reputation risk in endorsing it too before it gets to a point of yep i don't know yeah some of the things that are left said or haven't been clarified are clarified so i'm on sidelines for the time being yeah i i think that's smart i think that's the risk i run which is i think that when i say hey this is a this is a gamble you can lose all your money that's not likely to succeed that there's that there there's could be some money to be made here's my exact holdings i feel like i'm disclosing everything and smart adults are gonna do with that what they want do your own research don't rely on me and come to your own conclusions i'm telling you what i've come to thus far three days in and so i'm always like oh people will get all that in reality all anyone's gonna remember is dude you were super excited about that thing and either i look like a fucking genius or i look like an idiot scam artist the sad part about it was that nobody's gonna remember any of the nuance around how i was thinking about it anybody's just gonna remember dude you sounded so excited you said you put a hundred grand in and either you know that's why you're the hottest thing to slice bread if that becomes a ten million dollars stake or it's gonna be i lost my life savings how could you you told me this was gonna work and unfortunately the way i wish the world the way i wish people listen to it is not gonna be how people live actually listen to it is my guess are you the biggest the biggest bit clout bull in the world sean i even close like craig cl who's you know a friend of ours been on the pod he was on it before us he's invested i don't know how much money but he's like the biggest whale are you go to anyone's account he owns he knows like the majority of their coin like he he and he's like yeah i'm bullish like you know he he could speak for himself how he's thinking about the calculated risk but like you know he's got a a huge stake and i'm you know en of how early he was on and how bullish was early because it's already he's got a lot of paper gains let's put it that way as far as and then there's of course a bunch of other people like you know there's there's the big the the the the whale guy i forgot his name as big big clap whales or something like that he put a million dollars into his own coins and he's he also has you know the biggest kind of like n collection out here i think well that guy big he bought he wired me or i keep saying wired but he sent me ten grand in theory so one guy is the guy who's providing secondary market liquidity that's the guy you worked with then there's this guy who basically has the whale coin that's a community token a separate thing he owns two million dollars worth of t art and he created a coin that basically says hey i collect this art if you own my coin you own a part of my art collection and and so he's made he's made it big he's made a bunch of money crypto he reinvest into n entities now he's reinvest at least a million bucks into big cloud as well so there's a bunch of people who are very very bullish on this thing you know but and and you know there's but i'll also say like you know what are the downsides right like a if you go use the thing you'll go to three things right away it requires a password to join that's already has blocked like eighty percent of people now you could find it if you just twitter bit club if you google bit club password you'll find it easily but today that's a that's a challenge it's it's password protected because they're not ready for scale which is the second part you go use the thing and it's it's like under such heavy load all the time that like i click the follow button and the thing fucking spins for thirty seconds it's like super annoying that it's not a faster app it's like the thing is always going down because they can't handle the scale right now jack are you are you gonna make more income from entities in two thousand twenty one that you think you will from your real job or your normal business rather probably and is that fucking crazy like three letters you didn't even know last year yeah a different market man different dynamics very crazy would you say three years ago where were you what where were you at what is it now i fit march i was just at my agency so i was shooting a car commercials on the like for a yeah just run around the desert with a handheld camera trying to make a car commercial isn't it crazy how much things have changed and such a shorter the last couple months has been like compressed a ton of just leaps and bounds of technology and culture and last year obviously shifting to doing and work fully online i think was one jump and now like the normalization of crypto is just feels like another like rocket and stuff like you know what we're talking about here is like it feels like that stuff it's just not just creeping into the mainstream but it's just a burst pipe now right like the top shop thing just when absolutely bananas then this big cloud thing is gonna pull on the same like cultural levers that top shop there maybe it's successful maybe it isn't but it's like the cat's not going back in the bag at this point right so jack let me ask you because i feel like i feel a little torn right because i come on the pod because i come on the upon today and i say oh i gotta talk about bi cloud why because a i've been using it a bunch for the last couple days is one of the more interesting projects i've ever seen but b i'm like kind of embarrassed to even talk about it because there's such a good chance that this thing fails that it's gonna look pretty stupid and bit cloud is even more it's gonna look even more stupid when it fails than like let's say like i guess like what i'm getting at is i think that it's you know it takes a long time to build a reputation of being smart and trustworthy and it's easy to lose it in a day you know i think warren buffett buffet said that once and you know takes takes it a decade or whatever build reputation and a day to lose it and so i kinda feel that way with with a bit bitcoin but cloud crypto in general it's all such uncertain it's uncharted waters uncertain territory nobody really if anybody tells you they know what's gonna happen they're definitely not saying you know tell true people speculate people are fun talking about it people place their bets and then the chips will fall where they may now do you feel that way with n entities like do you feel almost embarrassed or slightly guilty you know selling a file for a hundred fifty thousand dollars and you know let's say next year the market comes down to earth like i think right now tops shot is top shots getting slaughtered it's going down like thirty percent month over month because all the whales are like hey cool we've made millions of dollars let's just do a coordinated sell off and like you know like let's sell this baby now with let's take something off the table and so top shots like crater right now and then as a search to crater all the people who thought it was gonna fail are like see you know told you so this was silly to begin with as somebody who's selling digital art for hundreds of thousands of dollars does a part of you worry like what happens at a year from now when you're the same sold for hundred and fifty thousand dollars is worth a thousand dollars and what do you i guess how do you think about that yeah i thought a lot about it i think coming into it originally at zero expectation of like the level of investment that people would be willing to commit to something like this one thing i will say is i've like i have a relationship with every single person who's bought one so because yeah the twitter layer on top of the n layer you you that often they have links the twitter profiles is obviously introduce yourself everybody that been on the work and i think that to me is you know if you have a relationship with the person that collects the art that's different than thrown it into this anonymous market and you know profiting x offered i also think there's an argument to be made for like my background is commercial advertising right so i know you guys spoke to michael say hello a couple weeks ago and i just have this like i guess loop in my head or this thing i'm thinking about around what is a marketing expense relative to a like a a technology in general so if you're an ethereum like whale let's say let's say you bought x number of thousand ethereum at seven cent or whatever it was back in the day and you wanna see the technology you believe in the technology that made you wealthy adopted by more people you wanna like spread the gospel as it were feels to me like there's a lot of people participating in this market for that reason so the n explained piece which was by far the most expensive or the the largest sale of the last year have done i think they got four million impressions on twitter so if you think about how it would cost you to buy four million impressions on twitter or if what it would cost you to develop something that has that level of resonance i think it's easy to get distracted from that as as like the three of us have distribution but that that is a valuable thing right to own something that has that level of cultural velocity to me is you know i don't wanna say it's under priced but i think it's like i think it's a it's a legitimate bet like if you can see that this thing has this thing resonates with people and that's the beauty of having twitter so visualize value you can see this image that you own thirty three hundred or forty five hundred people clicked on and said i like this thing so there's also a mega advantage that having that layer on top where you can evaluate how like how much this thing resonates before you sell does that make sense i yeah that does make sense jack as like i i i consider as close friends i wanted to like buy you i wanted to i was willing to spend around five thousand dollars to buy one of your things just because i like look up to you as like a creator and i actually think your arts badass ass and i think you're gonna be like a far more important person than you already are i was willing i so i get the sentiment now without sounding like a douche like i i have money right and i was only willing to spend five brand the way the re the way that someone was gonna spend a hundred and fifty grand that either they're like way richer than i am or they're just crazy that's how what i like i don't understand a hundred and fifty k but like maybe some people don't understand that i was willing to do five k so this these are the people who bought bought it very very much you could like do your ethereum wallet s thing and figure out how much people have but well you said you know money the house like i know him and i talked to him but like it's a normal you do what we do from you if you know them like i don't have to i don't have to know someone i'm like oh well like i drives to g is from dubai way they go back and forth in twitter dms some people don't have their real name but it's like hey you know you develop a relationship sam here here here's how it works the guy who bought the people artwork for for whatever sixty nine million dollars something like that i i i i might i might be fixing up but you know meet c van that's his you as his handle well i just read about them he he started he i mean he's probably worth hundreds of millions of dollars through bitcoins he's five thousand to that's five thousand dollars into bitcoin and is is worth over a billion dollars based on when he invested in so that's pretty investing like i said you go to chuck e cheese you're great at ski ball you hit the five thousand dollar jackpot the tickets starts fitting out of this machine you don't think about it like spending a hundred fifty thousand dollars you think about it like spending seventy ether and you have seventy thousand ether or whatever right so spending a fraction of his like giant stockpile of crypto bucks and it feels shocked there's that and i'm shocked there's that many people that like jack butcher which who's like a relatively he's not people but he's like kind of a big deal that there's that many people that will just buy his thing for a hundred grand i'm just shocked at that there many people who have that option on your own being shocked and if jack if you do sell this thing for seventy six million dollars i mean like obvious like who cares about history and how neat that is i mean that would like that would be general i mean that would be you the butcher family would be famous for five generations i that would most absurd that'd would be crazy time perhaps it it would be it would be just so wild and so funny i i hope it works i kinda in it actually in a way maybe i actually hope it doesn't work because you know what they say about people who you're not exactly this because you've worked hard for it so be like selling a company for you you know what they say about people who like win the lottery and how like a huge some of them it's huge number of them they end up becoming addicts and or they get they're they depressed those yeah yeah like they're already messed up a little bit and now they're just even more they're they're messed up times the amount of money there and like i don't want that to happen no i don't think it would happen to you but i would also be nervous like you know the the the fact that there's even an outside chance of it happening is just the most ludicrous thing it's supposed to be like a piece of art in itself right that nobody interacts with commentary on the space but the fact that it exists on a platform where a transaction could actually happen is it quite like just unfathomable and that would like definitely walk your experience of the world and i i can't even fathom what something like that would be like but yeah yeah aliens will land before that happens me that's crazy okay we we should probably this i don't yeah i don't know where we go from here but exactly for coming on what you know we texted you like thirty minutes ago or forty you hopped on i appreciate that it was fun i hope somebody buys the thing i think that would be fucking amazing i think couldn't happen to do better guy so so as i think i i think there is a i hope i get a text that's like holy shit and if i get a texted it this is holy shit from anybody i know what has gone down so i hope it happens it's hard dude grow your podcast is the hardest thing up ever it's easier to just sell a picture for seventy seven million dollars than it is to get create a top ten business podcast ash shit you not it is actually easier to do one on the other find out yeah i feel like i could rule to word i know i could be what i want to from at all in and like a day's off on a travel never looking back